Am I right in thinking that infusions flare at a much higher rate than normal flares? I seem to remember something along the lines of 50% first swing, 75% second swing and 100% third swing.

>He's also right in that you're being really critical without actually offering advice for improvement.
Dgry

I don't recall him asking for advice, but I thought I was pretty clear A) how 1625 could be improved and B) how much more effective he'd be without infusing (and I think he'd still be more effective even without your DEATHBLOW™ strategy simply by lowered pre-swing DS even on non-corp).

Since this conversation centered around infusing, I'm not sure what other advice for improvement I should/could have given.


>Now it has devolved, unfortunately, into what I perceive as completely non-productive criticism of how I play and what I enjoy.
Nouvard

Even though it started on my criticism of a spell,(then my explanation to two people who had no idea what I was even talking about) this discussion never had anything to do with how you play or what you enjoy. Neither of those things matter to me.

It always had to do with how effective (or ineffective as I think it is) an ability was.



-farmer

It always had to do with how effective (or ineffective as I think it is) an ability was.

-farmer

---

We're in complete agreement on this. Infusion, like many of our spells, is an awesome idea that is poorly implemented.

Dgry

Based on 100 levels, 80 spells is heavy, yes.

Eventually I'll add much more, but I have other fish to fry. I had 80 spells at 79th level, singling my way up.

Max mana. He's only at 8.7 million exp, too.

Slacker! Taaki is at 9.5 million. Quite possibly the highest exp sorc who relies primarily on weapon swinging; certainly in plat, possibly in all three instances. Ok, enough of the thread hi-jack.

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

You could have just said 'your shield'.

Stop bragging about your banshee shield when I don't have one anymore.

:(

-farmer

>He's also right in that you're being really critical without actually offering advice for improvement.

Dgry

I don't recall him asking for advice, but I thought I was pretty clear A) how 1625 could be improved and B) how much more effective he'd be without infusing (and I think he'd still be more effective even without your DEATHBLOW™ strategy simply by lowered pre-swing DS even on non-corp).

Since this conversation centered around infusing, I'm not sure what other advice for improvement I should/could have given.

>Now it has devolved, unfortunately, into what I perceive as completely non-productive criticism of how I play and what I enjoy.

Nouvard

Even though it started on my criticism of a spell,(then my explanation to two people who had no idea what I was even talking about) this discussion never had anything to do with how you play or what you enjoy. Neither of those things matter to me.

It always had to do with how effective (or ineffective as I think it is) an ability was.

-farmer

Incredible.

The only waste of the infusion aspect of 1625 is not using it to your advantage.

Chad, player of a few

>Incredible.
Nouvard

I'm 100% in agreement with you on this response being appropriate.

-farmer

Figured I'd share this -- it's why I love my banshee shield - one shot kill:

You lunge forward at an Ithzir adept with your eonake mantlet and attempt a shield bash!

[Roll result: 314 (open d100: 220) Penalties: 5]

Awesome bash and an Ithzir adept flips end over end and lands on her head!

... 25 points of damage!

Solid strike caves the Ithzir adept's skull in, resulting in instant death!

The Ithzir adept vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.

The Ithzir adept no longer bristles with energy.

The glowing specks of energy surrounding an Ithzir adept suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.

The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves an Ithzir adept.

The brilliant luminescence fades from around an Ithzir adept.

An Ithzir adept becomes solid again.

Roundtime: 5 sec.

Always love when that happens. It's like when you get a crit death on a single cast of 1615.

Chad, player of a few

>Banshee shields are eonake/sancted as well, so you can use 1608 on them. When they double-flare, and you send a critter sprawling, it's fun. Probably the best overall shields I've seen, even if they are usually only 6x.

Only some releases.

Technically they aren't restricted to that, since they have been released otherwise (in permanent and flares added to existing shields).

With that said, I approve of them being sanctified.

-farmer

Make infusion last for 5 minutes instead of 1 proc. While we're add it get rid of the silly target cap on 1630 or at least increase the base to 5.

You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a double bit eonake handaxe at a huge death giant!
AS: +432 vs DS: +332 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +62 = +192
... and hit for 69 points of damage!
Left arm ripped from socket at the elbow!
The death giant screams with delight while clutching at its mangled left arm.
You swing a double bit eonake handaxe at a huge death giant!
AS: +432 vs DS: +332 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +45 = +175
... and hit for 66 points of damage!
The death giant twists away but is caught with a hard slash!
Back is broken!
The death giant is knocked to the ground!

As your eonake handaxe hits, it sends a surge of power through you that quickly leaps out at the giant!
A pillar of gold and topaz radiance manifests around a huge death giant.
CS: +331 - TD: +225 + CvA: +25 + d100: +91 == +222
Warding failed!
Waves of sacred energy tear through the death giant's body!
... 54 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Arcing bolt of electricity galvanizes left leg to knee joint. Won't be using it for awhile.
You swing a double bit eonake handaxe at a huge death giant!
AS: +432 vs DS: +217 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +4 = +249
... and hit for 146 points of damage!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the death giant's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
A huge death giant falls still, its bones snapping like twigs.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 8 sec.



375 damage and death in 8 seconds. 1615/ambush would take 9 seconds.

Chad, player of a few

---

Except your method took 11 seconds (you can't neglect the 3 seconds of RT it took to initially infuse). Also, the difference between your 8 second clip and a 9 second 1615/ambush is purely luck.

Posting this clip as an effective/efficient method of killing something is about as valid as posting a 3 second clip of someone getting a lucky crit kill with 1615. My 1615/ambush method results in 1615 instant killing the thing in 3 seconds of cast RT. If I only ever posted those times that I got a lucky shot, I'd still be much better off than you. I'd still be at 3 seconds cast RT, and you'd still be at a minimum of 8 seconds (3 hard RT for infusing, 5 for the swing).

Dgry

Except your method took 11 seconds (you can't neglect the 3 seconds of RT it took to initially infuse). Also, the difference between your 8 second clip and a 9 second 1615/ambush is purely luck.

Posting this clip as an effective/efficient method of killing something is about as valid as posting a 3 second clip of someone getting a lucky crit kill with 1615. My 1615/ambush method results in 1615 instant killing the thing in 3 seconds of cast RT. If I only ever posted those times that I got a lucky shot, I'd still be much better off than you. I'd still be at 3 seconds cast RT, and you'd still be at a minimum of 8 seconds (3 hard RT for infusing, 5 for the swing).

Dgry

I've understood everything you guys have posted. We just disagree.

You are correct about kill times. For me it works out like this...

1615 crit kill = 3 sec.
Plain attack crit or 2 shot mstrike kill or sbash crit = 5 sec.
Ambush crit kill = 6 sec.
Three strike mstrike kill = 8 sec.
1615/ambush crit = 9 sec.
Three strike mstrike followed with 1615 = 11 sec.
Three strike mstrike followed with ambush = 14 sec.

And so on.

The 1615/ambush is great when it works. I use it all the time. Never had any issue with it. Now I am mstriking three times with flares and infused 1615 and seeing some great results.

I started this thread to post cool paladin combat clips. The one I just posted was more about how much damage was output in 8 seconds.

Chad, player of a few

Further analysis...

The bulk of your damage came after the knockdown. On a roll of a 4 you did more damage than your first two strikes combined. Your infused 1615 barely affected the outcome of this clip.

If you'd opened with a knockdown each of your hits would have probably averaged around 150 damage per hit. So, you'd be looking at 450+ damage from your 3 melee strikes, not including the damage done from a shot of 1615 at the beginning. "My" method would have resulted in ~550 damage, which is nearly twice yours, and my method has much more reliable results that aren't so dependent on luck.

I don't see how 94 points of additional damage barely affected the outcome. It played a pretty big role. Close to one third of the total damage without extra added RT.

You want to include the 3 second infusion time in that. I don't. It was infused before I even came across the creature. I'm counting time from first strike to death. If it had not died after that and I infused again I would add that time to the over all time of the first strike to the death.

Your example would take 11 seconds. Not to mention if the initial cast of 1615 was lost to hindrance or did not achieve a knockdown.

Chad, player of a few

>If not I am curious why?
Nouvard

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!

-farmer

I never used 1613 because it was a waste of mana and didn't do anything worthwhile. The last two times I DID use it and died the spell fumbled. If you're hunting in an area where the spawn rate is low then maybe you aren't going to mind infusing multiple times but if you're in a high spawn place then no, you aren't going to bother with it. Just as with 1640. I'm sure there may be one or two people that actually use it but for the most part it is a waste of a spell slot.

First, thanks for taking the time to explain your opinions, Dgry. Even if I disagree its helpful to understand all sides of our class.

You're not understanding. We don't use it because it both reduces your damage/death potential and adds unpredictability into your hunting pattern. You essentially have to reduce your mana pool by whatever mana cost the infused spell has to use this ability. That means constantly tracking mana pulses and monitoring your combat for the spell to flare. If you miss the flare you could be wasting your ability to use mana you've allocated for a flare that will never happen. If you end a hunt without a flare you then have to track it into the next hunt.

I understand. Perhaps I just have a different way of looking at things.

If there is mana not doing anything then what good is it? Mana also happens to be free.

Your point about mana management is spot on. And true regardless of how you use your mana. I've fried my nerves with a beseech more than once, but hey, whats chomping a few herbs if it means cheating death?

Infused 1615 seems to flare very often. Not sure the best way to track it but after an infusion I am seeing it flare within 5 swings most of the time. I mstrike three times on one target as my open so with that many swings it can happen in a short period of time.

In my hunting area, it's not an inconvenience, it's a full on hazard to attempt to use this ability. My hunting area has dispels, instant maneuver attacks, random mana drains, magic immune creatures, and damaging environmental effects. My mana is my lifeblood in my hunting ground. I have to keep a specific amount in reserves for beseech, 1607, 1619, and to recast dispelled spells. Mana drains can drop my pool by 100 in an instant. Magic immune creatures means that an infused spell going off is a complete waste of mana. Environmental damage/maneuver attacks means I sometimes have hunts ended after only just arriving (which means further tracking of an infused spell).

In a lot of hunting grounds, it's wasteful and hazardous to use this ability.

Bowels - you get blown up

Disappearing creatures - generally a waste of mana to cast a spell at something that's going to vanish on you

Banshees/wraiths - another chance for it to toss up it's warding shield and nullify your ability to actually use spells against it

Anywhere with Magic immune mixed - waste of mana if it flares on this versus a non-magic immune

Anywhere you care about a skin

Anywhere that's cold immune mix if your 1615 flares are cold

Anywhere that's fire immune mix if your 1615 flares are hot

Anywhere with magic drains (dispels/magic drains)

Anywhere that has mixed in creatures with dangerous effects from hitting certain body parts (chopping off limbs and getting spewed with acid for example)

What you hunt and what is effective against what you hunt is the fun of using the tools in the arsenal a paladin has.

When I didn't have to deal with mana drains and magic immune creatures, *I used infusion*. I would use it while resting with the expectation of it going off when I was at nearly 100% mana and had no fear of being out. Usually it would work that way. Occasionally though, I would be well into a hunt without an infused flare firing and I'd have to choose between using mana and not using mana. Do I cast 1607 and risk not having 35 mana for a beseech if it flares on the next hit, or do I do without that 30 health? Do I recast that spell that just got dispelled, or risk not having 35 mana. Maybe I had my normal 70 mana reserve and it fired right before leaving, and my first 130 failed to hindrance. Usually I'd have enough for a 1603/130 combo, but not so much in this instance.

Your point is not lost. As an aside I use 1607 very differently than you. Early on it was apparent that mana was a boon to the paladin so I have had mana recovery on my AG badge since I could get it.

Die enough because you didn't juggle your health/spells/beseech reserves, or get hindered enough by it going off at a pointless time, and you too will stop bothering to use this ability as it's not reliable enough to justify the cost associated with it.

That sounds like very poor playing more than one aspect of 1625 causing problems.

I only ever recommend low to mid-level paladins use infusion as a way to deplete spirit CS scrolls while you're resting on a node between hunts. Scroll infused spells don't drain mana so they don't add that random element, and the spells on scrolls aren't worth anything otherwise. With 1612 up, they may even land - assuming you're trained to both read the scrolls and infuse them at a low level.

Scrolls are something I would never recommend to any paladin.

Obviously we have different views on our class. The passion behind the arguments are positive for the most part. When you decline into constant complaint you might want to try another class. I do not say this to anyone in particular.

The suggestions on improving the infusion aspect of 1625 sound great to me. Flare before the physical strike, flare every strike after an infusion, flare until indicated not to, flare without mana drain... everything I've seen as suggestions look brilliant.

This topic has me thinking of the old axiom "it's the journey, not the destination".

Chad, player of a few

>>That sounds like very poor playing more than one aspect of 1625 causing problems.

I found your responses offensive, so this'll probably be my last response to this thread. Yes, IRFAILATPALDINS, you are l33t.

>>I understand. Perhaps I just have a different way of looking at things.

>>Infused 1615 seems to flare very often. Not sure the best way to track it but after an infusion I am seeing it flare within 5 swings most of the time. I mstrike three times on one target as my open so with that many swings it can happen in a short period of time.

You would see it flare a lot if you're ineffective at ending your fights quickly. When I infused, it would carry forward to other hunts because my first attack is usually my last, but of course, I'm doing it wrong.

>>Scrolls are something I would never recommend to any paladin.

That's good, I try not to make recommendations when I have no experience in the subject matter either. I say you're inexperienced, because if you knew infusion as well as you think you do, you'd understand that it's strongest feature is the ability to use it with scroll invokes.

>>Obviously we have different views on our class. The passion behind the arguments are positive for the most part. When you decline into constant complaint you might want to try another class. I do not say this to anyone in particular.

I haven't bothered going back through this thread to see if Farmer was rightly irked or not, I probably should have done that before jumping into it. I will say this, while Farmer may argue with a heavy handed style of posting, he knows the class as well and better than most anyone participating on these forums and in this game. He doesn't constantly complain, but he is usually the first to say the things that usually go unspoken by the more humble players of our class. I think he fills a vital role in our communications with simu and I welcome the conversation. I'm guessing, in hindsight, that he joined this thread not realizing he was dealing with a paladin guru. Once he realized you knew everything there was to know, he probably skipped over explaining the smaller details, as you already knew those and wouldn't need him to rehash them. That led to shortened direct posts...

Or it could be that some know-it-all just irked him, one sympathizes.

Dgry

I'm going to try and get in my two cents on every level of this thread in one shot.

First, paladins are awesome and we have great combat clips. I'll toss one of mine in (from my last hunt) at the bottom. We have diverse combat styles, are one of the more enjoyable solo hunting classes I have ever played, and are just boss in general.

Second, infusion flares suck. You may manage to find one or two instances where they have a marginal usefulness, but they still suck. They cost just as much as casting the spell, you have the same chance to miss as when casting, except you have no idea when it will go off and cannot even be sure it is a target you want to cast at. Sure, you can use infusion at all levels and instances and love it. People still use scimitars after all. However, that does not make it well designed or generally effective. The only time I ever bothered was during the short window when I could hit triton defenders with 110, didn't yet have the armor ranks to cast it normally, and I needed the RT lock to loot them for a bounty task. Talk about a narrow darn window.

Third. Many of our other spells are also as useless. 1613 requires a death to activate (big cost) and does pathetic damage. It makes ivas aligned 1615 look like an ambush with a claidhmore. Like others I cast it with 103 and 104 just as dispell bait. 1640 is a class defining spell slot (xx40) that can be used once per day to do something cleric can always do, except we don't get the exp they do for it. It was a salve for converting clerics and shouldn't inflict such a useless spell slot on everyone else.

Fifth. I also hate scrolls, but I do not recommend people avoid them just because I do. When used they are actually very effective (see Valicar), they just do not suit my play style.

Sixth. Folks like Dgry and Farmer know what they're talking about, even in other instances when we do not agree.

Seventh, I skipped fourth, sue me.

R>incant 1630
An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming steel broadsword at you!
AS: +427 vs DS: +529 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +65 = -19
A clean miss.
>
An Ithzir scout reaches down and jerks an Ithzir janissary upright. The Ithzir janissary is unable to maintain balance and tumbles in a heap!
>
You motion forcefully as you confidently call on your patron in the invocation for Judgment...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a war griffin.
You briefly close your eyes, and the very air behind you ripples like a storm-ravaged ocean. A faint emerald light builds up and emanates from your hand before it takes the shape of an ethereal trident!
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking an Ithzir scout!
CS: +486 - TD: +284 + CvA: +9 + d100: +46 == +257
Warding failed!
The Ithzir scout is stricken for 145 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Arcing bolt of electricity galvanizes right leg to knee joint. Won't be using it for awhile.
An Ithzir scout falls to the ground grasping her mangled right leg!
The Ithzir scout is stunned!
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking an Ithzir scout!
CS: +486 - TD: +284 + CvA: +9 + d100: +5 == +216
Warding failed!
The Ithzir scout is stricken for 83 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Massive electrical shock to chest tears through muscle tissue.
The Ithzir scout is stunned!
The Ithzir scout is driven to her knees!
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking a war griffin!
CS: +486 - TD: +360 + CvA: +25 + d100: +96 == +247
Warding failed!
The war griffin is stricken for 96 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Heavy shock gives the war griffin fits!
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking an Ithzir scout!
CS: +486 - TD: +293 + CvA: +9 + d100: +49 == +251
Warding failed!
The Ithzir scout is stricken for 96 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Arcing bolt of electricity galvanizes left leg to knee joint. Won't be using it for awhile.
An Ithzir scout falls to the ground grasping his mangled left leg!
The Ithzir scout is stunned!
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking an Ithzir scout!
CS: +486 - TD: +284 + CvA: +9 + d100: +24 == +235
Warding failed!
The Ithzir scout is stricken for 56 points of damage!
... 45 points of damage!
Hideously bright electrical bolt sends left arm into another universe. Happy traveling.
The scout's grey shield falls to the ground.
The Ithzir scout is stunned!
The Ithzir scout is driven to his knees!
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking a war griffin!
CS: +486 - TD: +360 + CvA: +25 + d100: +63 == +214
Warding failed!
The war griffin is stricken for 90 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Heavy spark to back. Bet that hurts.
A chain of lightning erupts from the tip of the ethereal trident, striking an Ithzir janissary!
CS: +486 - TD: +284 + CvA: -2 + d100: +5 == +205
Warding failed!
The Ithzir janissary is stricken for 100 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Massive shock totally burns out the nervous system. Nothing works anymore.
The Ithzir janissary vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.

The ethereal trident dissolves into a spray of seawater.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>loot
You search the Ithzir janissary.
He had a spiral-hafted handaxe, a polished steel shield.
You discard the janissary's remaining useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
He had nothing else of value.
An Ithzir janissary's body shimmers slightly, then fades from view like a dissipating phantom.
>
An Ithzir scout shakes her head violently, trying to clear her thoughts!
>stance off
You are now in an offensive stance.
>mstrike
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
With instinctive motions, you weave to and fro striking with deliberate and unrelenting fury!
You thrust with a perfect mithril lance at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +567 vs DS: +218 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +8 = +395
... and hit for 221 points of damage!
Neck skewered, sliding past the throat and spine! That looks painful.
The Ithzir scout vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.
You thrust with a perfect mithril lance at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +567 vs DS: +269 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +78 = +414
... and hit for 244 points of damage!
Shot shatters shoulder and severs right arm!
The scout's steel broadsword falls to the ground.
The Ithzir scout vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.
You can't reach the war griffin from here. Perhaps you should try throwing or shooting something at it.
You thrust with a perfect mithril lance at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +567 vs DS: +235 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +48 = +418
... and hit for 262 points of damage!
Strike to abdomen skewers the Ithzir scout quite nicely!
The Ithzir scout vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.
You thrust with a perfect mithril lance at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +567 vs DS: +246 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +7 = +366
... and hit for 236 points of damage!
Incredible shot impales a kidney. Too painful to even scream.
The Ithzir scout vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.
You thrust with a perfect mithril lance at a war griffin!
AS: +567 vs DS: +235 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +14 = +382
... and hit for 262 points of damage!
Massive blow punches a hole through the war griffin's chest!
The war griffin crashes to the ground, motionless.

Your flurry of strikes leaves you off-balance and out of position.
Roundtime: 11 sec.

AIM: GS4Menos

>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow

I found your responses offensive, so this'll probably be my last response to this thread. Yes, IRFAILATPALDINS, you are l33t.

Dgry

My posts are not meant to be intentionally offensive. I appreciate you taking the time in your previous posts to explain your points.

First, paladins are awesome and we have great combat clips. I'll toss one of mine in (from my last hunt) at the bottom. We have diverse combat styles, are one of the more enjoyable solo hunting classes I have ever played, and are just boss in general.

AIM: GS4Menos

Agreed about paladins. My comment of "its the journey" is all about how paladins have a great arsenal of tactics in different situations against different targets. In no way is the class perfect either. I think 1613 needs tweaking too but I still cast it in my spell ups along with 103 and 104 which by the way were actually helpful in the bog. If there is an improvement to the infusion aspect of 1625 that would be fantastic. The suggestions made here are all good ones.

Currently I see infusing helping my current situation more than hindering it. I can't be the only paladin in GS that uses it and likes it.

Chad, player of a few