I'm a mage and don't pick, but I KNOW the locksmiths will love this!

Just an elf about town...

What is the reasoning behind water lore impacting anything with the damage a lockpick takes?

With it costing around 3 million experience to cap out picking and disarm I don't see how many people would be able to invest in lores for this. Especially when most of the population goes to auto smith because it's much faster. Is there anything that could alleviate the amount of RT for detection and disarm coming that would give people more incentive to go to a player locksmith?

For a rogue this benefit is nice but I'm not sure many will be able to afford training in lores especially if there are no other benefits. Maybe if this also reduced the experience penalty when casting 403?

Most of the time a capped picker would only have this up if they were picking a capped box in the -950 and up range.

How much damage can a lockpick take? How many ranks if I'm looking to negate all damage done?

Neat update with we knew a little bit more of the math.

>Think of it as using water lore to give your pick some fluidity to resist breaking. We're not using literal water here, we're using water magic.

>You'll have to wait and see on 404, but not long.

>Ixix

I'm indifferent to this change since it has no effect on me, but...what?

I mean I guess that makes sense if you want to push it, but strictly from a game design perspective, how does this make sense when A) I don't see it being possible for a non-post cap rogue to afford water lore and B) Wizards typically don't pick boxes and also have very little reason to train water lore at least as of right now, before you turn 512 into an awesome spell like I know you're about to...right? Right? Hello? Guys?

Anyway, I'm really just curious what the thought process was behind this from a game design standpoint to make it water lore based, since I don't see it benefiting the (assumed) intended recipients.

~ Methais

<<Are you saying that you don't understand why this benefit is water lore based as opposed to fire/earth/air, or why this is water lore based as opposed to some other completely different thing?>>

Personally I would have thought it Earth would be better as in it strengthens the lockpick, but I can see a justification for water.

I agree generally with the "themes" of the various lores, and to even playing along with the same theme, it would appear this little bonus would seem to be better suited for Air lore. Bards (second best pickers in the game) already have some incentive to train air lore and this would be a natural fit. Rogues -- well, do they need this? Not sure, out of my jurisdiction. Maybe a rogue can comment how helpful they think this would be and if the training points invested (seed 10 summation? you really need THAT much lore? seems hardly justifiable to invest that many TP's) are worth it.

Very eager to see the rest of the changes and how the lores fit together for all classes.

Very NOT eager to see Immolation nerfed :(

<We tried to stick with general themes for each lore:

<Fire: offensive
<Earth: defensive
<Water: Restoration and utility
<Air: Time alteration and utility

<It's only a general guideline, as sometimes a specific spell is strongly associated with an element that it doesn't make much sense to use any other element. You'll see why water lore makes <more sense in the next couple of days.


I like this line of thought. Thanks for the insight.

~Taverkin

>Can someone else benefit from my lore bonus? If I'm a water wizard will my 403 protect someone else picking with my lore?

>If so, I could see that being the preferred way of getting use from this as I occasionally cast lore on my pickers.

Even if that were the case, if you yourself don't have any lockpicking skill, the lore bonus they get is nonexistent, since lockpicking skill is a heavy factor in what you get from 403 if I remember correctly.

~ Methais

Imbed activations will not use the lore of the person who put the spell in the item.

Tal.

My favorite goal would be to cut RT with lore... which I suppose leans us towards air lore? Whatever, I don't care which lore, I just think it's sad that there aren't many locksmiths around anymore, in large part because we value time more today than we used to. Today, too many people go to the town smith simply because it's faster. I think we should add a 5-8 second RT to each lock the town smith opens, and allow lores to significantly reduce RT for PCs. That could be enough to close the gap a little and make PC locksmithing more appealing from both sides of that equation.

What happens if multiple people cast 403 on the same picker? Can a locksmith take advantage of self cast lore for the bonus and a water lore wizard's damage reduction on the same attempt?

---

Fyonn's player

Given that I just snapped a pick a couple of days ago with the Thief, I went over to look at what the lockpick modifiers are nowadays.
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Lockpicks

Is it just me, or does the "Weak (9/12)" listing for 'Alum' in the table in the 'Strength' column seem out of whack?
Two lines above that, Veniom lockpicks are of 'Excellent' strength at 9/12.
You have to go all the way back to Gold lockpicks, at 3/12, to find 'Weak' as a descriptor.

So color me confuzzled.

.

.

In other news... DAMN, but do you know how depressing it is to know that I can (just barely, with Lore) only pick the FIRST THIRD of the locks?!?!

"<<<Any chance the experience penalty can be reduced or removed when using lore? It never made any sense to me why I would get less experience trying to pick a -1400 box with lore when you don't really have much of a choice. If you are picking with the right pick to where it's still difficult to open a box should you really be punished with the lore when there is no other option other than using the lore?>>>>

This is a good point. I learn almost nothing from the most challenging boxes, because I cannot open them without lore. By contrast, I learn the most from boxes that are not challenging at all, and are far beneath my level. This just doesn't work right. Of course, simply removing the experience penalty from lock lore completely would create a situation where everyone used it all the time, since there would be no penalty for doing so. This would in effect change the balance of boxes across the board. But if the lock lore experience penalty could be scaled, somehow, so those top-end boxes produced decent experience, while still penalizing use on less challenging boxes...that would be ideal.

~ GtG""

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It would still use the same system when using a pick closer to the locks difficulty with the lore up. The only situation you could use it all the time to get closer to the difficulty with a weaker pick instead of using a stronger pick without lore. But in reality I don't see why that would even be an issue.

Of course if you always have it up and are using a vaalin pick on a -295 box that can be opened with a copper pick you shouldn't get the same experience. It would act the same way with or with it up with the existing pick modifier penalty.

<<<I think that you're all onto some good stuff - but it's going to get lost in here with the upcoming updates. This is my gentle suggestion to chat about general picking system ideas over in the rogue folders, where I'll be able to keep a better eye on it. ~ Ixix>>>

Okay, but bear in mind, not all locksmiths are rogues. ;)

~ GtG

<<I understand this is an ELR update, but the first spell in this update to see a change was 402 and it had absolutely nothing to do with lores.>>

Did you miss the part where Air Lore now makes it possible to sometimes auto-point at the things 402 detects?

>Think of it as using water lore to give your pick some fluidity to resist breaking. We're not using literal water here, we're using water magic.

Ah, thanks for illuminating the "water" flavor here. I admit I read the release and was like...water? "Shouldn't water like, rust a lockpick?!"

>We tried to stick with general themes for each lore:

Makes even more sense!

>I mean I guess that makes sense if you want to push it, but strictly from a game design perspective, how does this make sense when A) I don't see it being possible for a non-post cap rogue to afford water lore and B) Wizards typically don't pick boxes and also have very little reason to train water lore at least as of right now, before you turn 512 into an awesome spell like I know you're about to...right? Right? Hello? Guys?

I appreciate your stance, but if they are giving elemental lore benefits to an elemental spell which already helps lockpicking...what exactly were they going to do which isn't inconsistent with your stand point?

>Yes, the lore bonus is not limited to self-cast.

That's cool, except the experience snub part where people often don't want it. Could be more of a trade-off now though! (Also, if someone is damaging a lockpick, they actually did want 403 even if they don't know it.)

---

Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

<My favorite goal would be to cut RT with lore... which I suppose leans us towards air lore? Whatever, I don't care which lore, I just think it's sad that there aren't many locksmiths around <anymore, in large part because we value time more today than we used to. Today, too many people go to the town smith simply because it's faster. I think we should add a 5-8 second RT to each <lock the town smith opens, and allow lores to significantly reduce RT for PCs. That could be enough to close the gap a little and make PC locksmithing more appealing from both sides of that <equation.

I disagree. I think making things more annoying and time-consuming doesn't address the underlying problem at all and is a great way to make the game more tedious than it already is. There's a reason many players express the opinion that they wouldn't play GS without Lich you know.

I've posted my suggestions on this before. You can design a locksmithing system that players find rewarding and worth their time. Why not spend time and energy on that rather than trying to curb player behavior by throwing up roadblocks?

~Taverkin

>>"Shouldn't water like, rust a lockpick?!"

We have very few ferrous metals in Elanthia. Why build with something that rusts when we've got tons of mithril...

___
ASGM of Events and Festivals

<<This fallacy has resulted in more annoyance for me then just about anything else in GS. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've either lost out on experience or wasted time waiting for 403 to drop (or worse, missing out on an LM rep when I was still working on it) because some well-meaning person with access to MnE spells tosses it one me the second I get a pick stuck in the lock without bothering to ask if I need/want it.

Starchitin
>>

If you know the spell, you can stop it when its cast on you...not sure if you are able to or not though.

<If you know the spell, you can stop it when its cast on you...not sure if you are able to or not though.>

I've known the spell for less then 1% of the time I've been picking (12 years). Regardless, it's just plain rude to cast it on a locksmith that hasn't requested it.

Besides the many reasons a smith might not want lore to begin with, self cast is more powerful then getting if from someone else (unless, perhaps, the caster has WAY more ranks in lockpicking then the recipient).

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.