First off... it seems like it's been a long time since we've had a good, philosophical discussion on these boards. I love those. So thank you for starting one.

>Who do your characters worship or uphold?
Fash'lo'nae. Raelee does not worship him. She views her following as purely philosophical. She does not believe worship is productive, nor that Fash'lo'nae actually desires it. Since she likes to arrange things into neat little logical frameworks... if Fash'lo'nae sees knowledge as the ultimate, singular goal, he won't be interested in that which he has nothing to learn from. Since she figures mortal prayers have nothing to teach him, thus he won't be too interested. (And historically... most of his direct interactions with mortals have not been benevolent - but rather treating them as rats in a maze. He grants knowledge when he wants to see what we'll do with us, not because he's invested in our education.) So, don't worship him. Be like him. Don't pray. Study.

>Why did you choose them for your character(s)?

OOCly? I don't remember...

No seriously. It was a long time ago!

ICly... I'm not sure if I've ever told that story. I don't think it was a big moment or a big revelation, but more a slow, steady adaptation once she discovered the philosophy. I think it created a logical and philosophical framework that made a lot of the pressures on her make sense. It created a new purpose for her direction in life, or at least a new excuse. "When I am only rewarded for excelling in knowledge and skill, it is reasonable to infer that knowledge is the only goal that matters. All others are secondary as they produce no results of value." Short version, maybe Raelee didn't get enough hugs as a child?

>Do you meet with other adherent characters in GS and perform rituals or social events?
Well... no. Raelee is pretty anti-social by nature. She doesn't play well with others. Granted, I've honestly never met a Fash'lo'nae follower that I'd describe as a social butterfly. Too much time with our noses in books... and we forget how to make friends. Though, with Raelee's worldview... Fash'lo'nae followers shouldn't be honoring him with rituals anyway. It's a pointless exercise and there's work to do.

In the past when there have been gatherings... it's been more Lornon-based than anything. I think that can be valuable... for a lot of followings, we don't have too many others to hang out with. (I can't actually remember the last time Raelee had a long chat with another Fash'lo'nae follower.) Not to mention, many of us work together fairly well. I do like a good lecture series.

It doesn't seem like there's been much plot-driven cause for Lornon to come together lately... so we, collectively, don't seem to have been hanging out much.


>Also, if any of you answer "Sheru," please seek out Ysharra in-game.
What's a Sheru? :)


Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."

Funnily enough, my one character that worships a god actually worships Sheru - he's Adustusi in game.

OOCly I chose Sheru for him because I ultimately wanted a Bane Cleric and, out of all the Lornon Gods, Sheru's pretty awesome and I like the jackal symbolism.

ICly, Adustusi is very much respectful of how potent fear is and how it shapes life. He believes fear needs to be respected, but it can be a great motivator for good things - fear that is overcome becomes courage, etc. He also suffers from nightmares and it was the main reason why he turned to Sheru - to understand them. (He does have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with coffee, however, in an attempt to stay awake and away from rather vivid nightmares - he has a bit of a complex in that respect. Worships Sheru but tries not to dip too deeply into it.)

He's a fairly new alt, so I haven't had much time to explore all the nuances or speak to other Sheru worshippers or consider his rites/worship.

Most of my characters don't make religious rite a central focus of their lives. Some are more influenced than others by this Arkati or spirit or that, but for the most part I tend to keep things subtle or at least not-overt... unless they're a cleric or otherwise land eyeball-deep in religion-related altercations like the GSS.

>Who do your characters worship or uphold?

Of my characters with actual convert status, my (largely shelved) cleric is devoted to Cholen, my empath-turned-ranger is bound to Mularos (or, more accurately, a Tehir variation) and has a side reverence for Jastev and Gosaena, my definitely-knows-no-spells non-wizard has a solid appreciation for Fash'lo'nae, and my namesake empath has a tie to Andelas and a notable respect for the Huntress.

I've also always wanted to do something with Amasalen and Jaston, but those don't have traction yet.

>Why did you choose them for your character(s)?

Cholen: I am a whimsical creature and laugh loud and often. This one resonated with me, the player, due to humor and gender bending. At the time, there wasn't much on the wiki for Cholen-related clerical messaging and I wanted to see what it was, so I rolled one. The character had a fun personality but it turns out I'm not too keen on CS casters as a playstyle, mechanically.

Mularos: I blame some of this on being young and involved in the local goth scene at the time the character was rolled/first few years of play. The character's philosophy on pain was/is a little off-kilter (part of her philosophy on balance), but empaths, man, they're all a little warped. She's also my most special-snowflake-and-tropey in appearance and backstory, enough so that I kind of cringe to think about it now. Jastev comes into it for more goth personality reasons, as well as divination, Gosaena comes into it for silence/neutrality and divination.

Fash'lo'nae: This character is a scholar and had/has some questionable morality (and sanity). Somewhat like Raelee's description, he doesn't so much actively worship as have a resonance and an appreciation. Mostly I started out just wanting his 308 messaging and manufactured some childhood influences from there.

Andelas: The character was raised on the road by a ranger and I imagine them most at home in forests and countryside. This one is also more resonance than active worship, touching on the darker side of the wild. The Huntress appreciation is similar, a kindred Spirit of the wilds and the hunt.


>Do you meet with other adherent characters in GS and perform rituals or social events?

Rarely to never. For most, because active worship/religious activities aren't really in line with how they want to spend their time, their spiritual attachments are more lifestyle choices than socially-oriented practices.

My Cholen cleric might have if the opportunity had arisen when I was playing them actively, but I knew no other Cholen followers at the time aside from the odd bard.

My Mularosian is probably my most nuanced and had the most play on the religious stage, due to her involvement in the Griffin Sword Saga as part of the Dark Alliance. She likely would have largely kept it to herself and only discussed it in the context of philosophy and cultural exchange if she hadn't gotten sucked into actively working to do Bad Things(tm) while rationalizing it away as part of her keeping the balance. As such, she ended up in some ritual harm situations with other player characters that made for some interesting roleplay scenarios, but they were always initiated by someone else, sometimes well in advance, sometimes off the cuff with my character playing support/hands on for someone else's idea. The ones she initiated were always solitary endeavors, or were offscreen story vignettes and didn't involve actual players. Because I am a recluse with lots of social and performance anxiety. ;)

>Do you hold to one of the less popular Arkati/spirits, and if so, do you seek out others, or perform your rites alone, and where?

Some of those I've named are probably not terribly popular or don't have a loud active following. The rare times my Andelas-follower pays any homage, it's at the Andelas temple in Solhaven, or just out in the woods somewhere, and isn't something they look for company in (and would probably actively avoid it).

I'd be curious to hear the form some characters' personal devotions take and how they're expressed onscreen or off, like Kayse mentioned with the offering up green sapphires to Aeia. Little specifics like that are neat to read about.

---
Cendadric says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 110 silver coins for it."

<<Who do your characters worship or uphold? Why did you choose them for your character(s)? Do you meet with other adherent characters in GS and perform rituals or social events? Do you hold to one of the less popular Arkati/spirits, and if so, do you seek out others, or perform your rites alone, and where?>>

Xorus is essentially an occultist, so what he does is his religion. He has heterodox views on most theology. For example, he rejects the idea that "the Arkati" were ever slaves to the Drakes, regarding them as obviously more powerful than the dragons. He would tell you Elves did not regard the dragons as gods in the Age of Darkness, but that they did regard the Arkati that way, and that the human theologies on this point grew out of misinterpretations of flawed Elven arguments against divinity.*

One way this might present itself is the case of Koar. The Drake's Shrine on Mount Aenatumgana would be interpreted by some as proof that Koar is the Emperor Drake. Xorus regards it as proof that the Koar theology is a syncretic plagiarism of dragon myths, and that they largely let us believe whatever we want because they draw power off us. In his opinion they are all self-conscious essence nodes with two-dimensional personalities, some ascended spirits of this world and others extra-planar in origin. Generally, he believes the Liabo gods are more closely originated, and the peace only exists because they are more powerful overall than the Lornon gods.

Anyway. He was born into a secretive Ur-Daemon cult, which does not "worship" the "Old Ones" per se. They are Dark Elven supremacists who regard themselves as separated conduits of "the primordial daemons" who are dormant or "dreaming", never truly dead, wishing to wake them back up to return the world to a higher stage of being. So it is a nihilistic, fanatical anti-religion, ordered around collecting powerful ancient artifacts and forbidden knowledge. This was partly inspired by the fact that there is a great deal of Lovecraft in the oldest parts of the game and I've long suspected that is why it was spelled "daemon" in the first modern history document.

- Xorus' player

---

>* Specifically, the pre-historical Elves asked why their gods allowed the dragons to terrorize them, and did not protect them in the Ur-Daemon War. Supposedly they discovered the slain body of an Arkati and concluded it is because they are not truly gods. His argument is that their understanding of magic was too primitive to know that the avatar of a deity is destructible, but that this does not at all imply the deity is not immortal, and that the religious apologists would take this flawed premise of corporeal mortality to assume the dragons were more powerful and that the gods were mere servants who were sent away by their more powerful masters. His contrary explanation is that it is impractical for them to directly exert themselves from the moons, and the Ur-Daemon were projecting their power through surface portals.

Thank you all for your answers, it's been a great pleasure to read. I was already well aware of the creativity of my fellows and the responses did not disappoint. I figured I'd answer my own questions and then ask a new one, if you all are game for continuing or adding to the discussion.

Ysharra comes from a barbarian culture of humans who escaped elven slavery when the Shadowguard fell. Over the millennia, they lost the Arkati pantheon with the exception of V'tull, due to having a cultural origin story of him freeing them from the shattered Vaalorian forces. When she came to the Landing, she met and bonded with her Faendryl relatives and her religious beliefs went from a typical lust for conflict and survival into a more nuanced appreciation for chaos. This leaves her out of sorts with the few other V'tullian adherents, but being a half-elf who is mostly despised or ignored by both sides her heritage this is not an unusual status for her.

Mourne, your response concerning your Mularosian's experiences during the Griffin Sword Saga were very familiar! Ysharra met Alisaire innocently enough at the porch some years ago, and then they wound up locked up together in a merchant's backroom, having a whispered conversation that resulted in Ysharra deciding this was her person and she was going to spend most of the rest of her life keeping up with this strange, circumspect Dhe'nar. Over the next few months, just like your character, she started getting recruited into Doing Bad Things and then improvising Even Worse Things in a weird attempt to justify her actions with her own morality. The end result has Ysharra much closer to a zealot then I ever thought I'd play, though nowadays with the GSS lost and the followers scattered, she's trying to figure out what's next. She spent most of her early life as property, and her later years as a reluctant sadist. I haven't even figured out what she is now, as I've never really decided if her loyalty is to V'tull or to her friends in the Alliance, and then what she is when most of both are absent.

Now, for the questions- are there any Arkati/spirits/specific theology that your character is opposed to? Is it based on conflict/background with another character and your interactions with them? Are they afraid of any of them? Xorus' take on the belief structure is fascinating, as it places the mortal races in a reciprocal relationship with the Arkati, though perhaps not quite in the way most of them envision. If you put that in front of my question about opposition, is that part of their power, too? Drawing from our conflicts with one another, and thus the materialistic winners and losers unimportant? Would that be why Koar has a standing order for them not to fight one another directly, as it would run counter to what they'd get for letting us do it for them?

-GK, curious as always


Ysharra says, "One day, I'm going to have "What?" inscribed on your tombstone, with lots of helpful punctuation."

For what it is worth the Arkati have admitted in game that worship makes them more powerful. Their natures being shaped by outside factors and "spheres of influence" has been part of the gods lore since the mid-90s (e.g. Eorgina "draws strength wherever one being dominates another.") For example, the original gods document hypothesizes that the Lornon gods became malevolent because of Lornon, which in the pre-modern history (I.C.E. Age) was always a demonic gate world.

On the other hand, I get somewhat hazy on what is officially true, and what has kind of gotten outmoded over time. It is not as though the various gods lores are remotely self-consistent. Xorus can be militantly agnostic about what we actually know about them, and he tends to refer to them as "idiot savants who spend little time together because they have nothing in common with each other, and the few who do are either servants or at each other's throats." Last night he told Lylia they are like human children who become prodigies after being kicked in the head by a mule: singular talents with monomania, a great deal of vanity, and emotional immaturity.

Eorgina says, "I have discovered a connection with my followers that has surpassed even my expectations."

Eorgina says, "It seems, perhaps, that your faith has added to my power."

The view that Xorus takes is that "unholy" power with the dark gods and undead originates ultimately in the demonic, which in its purest form is antithetical to the nature of the Arkati. So if you wear the skin of an Ur-Daemon (e.g. the shroud from the Red Dreamer storyline) you are cut off from the Arkati entirely. He regards the Lornon gods as corrupted to varying extents by it. He sees Marlu as something like a junkie in that way, trying to loosen portals and find things in ancient crypts. And he basically wants to kill all of them except to the extent they are willing to comply with the new world order when the cult manages to bring back the Ur-Daemon.

While he might reject the idea that the moon gods were servants of the dragons, because the Elven religion documents give grounds for interpreting that as historical revisionism, he would acknowledge that when the dragons were the dominant power on the world the nature of the gods was likely inordinately influenced by them. Perhaps even to the extent that they had to cede authority to the drakes on the surface of the planet, similar to the I.C.E. Age lore where they had no practical choice but to allow autonomy to local gods. So he would reject the creation myths of Arkati as spirit offshoots of Drakes, but would not reject it having a grain of truth.

- Xorus' player

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>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich

I'm picking this up rather late, but the topic interests me. I hope that joining in the discussion is all right.

>Who do your characters worship or uphold?

My Volnite rogue is in the middle of a spiritual crisis. He had a rather respectful attitude toward the Liabo Pantheon and a reluctant liking for Fash'lo'nae until Caligos Isle, where he was terrified by visions of the past, screams that might be happening now or long ago, mist that ate blood, mana and strength, and creepy worshipers of Ghezresh who seem to have lost their memories and/or their identities. Moreover, the island seems to have been drowned at least once by Charl, while Ghezresh is presenting himself as a savior. He has no doubt that the Caligots believe Ghezresh to be good, though Ghezresh seems dangerous and deceptive to him. But that then begs the question--how does he know that any of the Arkati are good, rather than deceivers? Why would Charl drown the island? Just to punish the inhabitants for forsaking his worship? But people convert from one faith to another all the time, and they aren't killed for it.

He is also bothered by the nedum vereri. In practical terms, they're a good hunting target for him, being undead and stunnable. But...they were once people, and unlike the ghouls, ghoul masters, mummies, wraiths, and revenants, the nedum vereri LOOK like people most of the time. He wonders why Oleani did not save them from undeath. If she wanted them to be undead as some sort of punishment, wouldn't that make her evil? But if she didn't wish for this and yet they were pulled into undeath despite her wishes, wouldn't that mean she was extremely weak...too weak to be considered either god (childhood training in the Human Empire) or patron (which he has gathered is the common elven attitude)?

He is wrestling with this in private, chiefly because he knows no one who would be willing to discuss the matter. He is troubled, though, and feels as if he is betraying Lorminstra (who keeps bringing him back to life in exchange for offerings; he knows that she's real--too real too spurn) and the monks of Voln, who genuinely believe the best of the Liabo Arkati.

My monk is half-Krolvin and does not worship any of the Arkati, though she is willing to make offerings to Lorminstra in exchange for resurrections. However, she regards such offerings as a business deal, not as genuine worship.

If she could, she would worship Khar'ta of the Three Faces and Czag'herndra, the Starbringer, as well as her klinast's patron, who I think is the Nurturer (their emblem is a stylized leaf). Unfortunately, while I can RP such worship by making up ceremonies, non-Arkati deities aren't available for CONVERT.

My cleric chose to become a cleric after her husband perished at the hands of the Grimswarm. She found him, but she could not heal or resurrect him. Determined that no one else should ever suffer such a loss, she gave up everything, including her infant daughter whom she gave to relatives), to take up her current profession. She has not yet adopted a patron, though I'm leaning toward Jastev.

My sorceress is my attempt to play a character who is relatively dark. She might end up as a follower (certainly not a worshiper) of Andelas, Ghezresh, Fash'lo'nae, Sheru, or Marlu. At this point, however, she is undecided. She does not feel this is important, as she believes that she needs to gain far more power before any of them would be interested enough to speak to her, let alone strike a bargain that would be profitable to both.


>Why did you choose them for your character(s)?

Well, I'm in the process of choosing for the cleric and sorceress. Those haven't been determined yet. I'm trying to determine who both of them are more strongly before I pick deities for them. Jastev, however, suits the cleric's somber temperment and interest in art. And the Lornon deities I mentioned would be interesting (some more dramatically than others).

As for the monk, I chose deities that seemed to work better with her heritage than the Arkati do. The worship hasn't gone very far as I don't know much about the gods of the half-Krolvin or what's been established in-game.

The rogue's crisis of faith was completely unintentional. It just happeneed.

>Do you meet with other adherent characters in GS and perform rituals or social events?

I don't know of anyone who performs rituals in-game, sorry.

>Do you hold to one of the less popular Arkati/spirits, and if so, do you seek out others, or perform your rites alone, and where?

Who are the less popular Arkati/spirits? And as mentioned, I don't know anyone who performs religious rites in-game.

>Also, if any of you answer "Sheru," please seek out Ysharra in-game. She is very friendly and I solemnly swear wants nothing but your acquaintance.

Where can Ysharra be found, as a rule? I ask because while the sorceress would be intrigued by a Sheruvian, most of my characters are very young (at 17th level, the rogue is the highest; the others are around the 5 to 7 range) and aside from said rogue, none of them have much in the way of climbing or swimming skills yet.

Given that some cultures in Elanthia expressly view the Arkati as mentors, patrons, or exemplars rather than gods, I think it's entirely believable that characters would make a distinction between following and worshiping. A Faendryl character, for example, might feel a strong affinity for Eorgina or Fash'lo'nae and consider herself a follower inasmuch as she emulates them, but she does not worship these Arkati as gods -- she doesn't pray to them or expect their intercession on her behalf, nor does she believe in their divine nature. That's not an OOC attitude but one that's very much in line with the official documentation that states "The Faendryl are a nation of atheists":

https://gswiki.play.net/History_of_the_Faendryl

The Dhe'nari Way is similarly designed to view the Arkati as different from them in degree but not in kind. Plenty of other characters might incorporate a disbelief in the divinity of the Arkati as an individual tenet even as they follow a given Arkati.

Makes total sense to me, and it feels like more than merely a semantic difference.

--- Lauren, Lylia's player

Here is the link. http://www.sphereandscythe.com/

Just click on history

Yes, for dark elves I guess it works, although a dark elf follower of any arkati never made much sense to me, which is why I never play dark elves...since theological roleplay is fun.

I see almost everyone echoing this "non-worshipper" stance and it just doesn't make sense in a medieval fantasy world where the races have medieval thinking in many ways, yet seem oh-so-21st century in their religious thoughts.

I thank the GM's for at least not writing the lore like that, and providing the means to more dramatic role play.

As for Tilamaire, and the idea that 'all gods are the same" my logic would run differently for my character...if she dared to think about it, she would just reason, like Voln, Tilamaire is supplied power from Liabo, specifically from Cholen himself, and for Amaselan followers, that power comes from Lornon, specifically from Luukos.

You've not convinced me that your characters' thought process is anything but OOC bias. It wouldn't matter if it was just a handful of nutty dark elves. It just seems to me everyone adopts this postmodern outlook for their character, whether Vaaloran or human, and it strikes me as bit boring and inauthentic to the world the characters live in.

The middle ages were sophisticated in some ways, but almost everyone would be murdered by the state if they were to deny Christ or assert the primacy of science in just about any way. I don't think a progressive idea of the Arkati as being what they are - just weird beings of some kind - makes sense at all except as a deviant sort of behavior in Elanthia.

Years ago, someone wrote, in response to GM Tamuz' question, "Why so non-converted?":

"I suppose it would take some sort of religious experience; a divinely inspired quest or purpose. Like all her vows and commitments, converting is not something she would take lightly. If she's going to do something, she'll do it all the way or not at all."

I guess that being lead by Lorminstra herself back from the brink of death is just not a religious experience. I guess that hundreds of invasions by giant black panthers and Sheruvian heralds IS NOT ENOUGH.

I CANNOT SAY OOC ENOUGH...

Yup, the more I think about it, the more I think you all are out of genre and out of character unless they are a dark elf or have no social conditioning whatsoever. These are the most powerful beings in Elanthia, nobody knows their origin stories IC, and there is far more evidence for them than there was for Christ's existence in the real middle ages of Earth...


Arkati belief would be widespread and that just isn't reflected in the RP populace.



*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*

The way that the universe was originally built is different from how it is interpreted today. In the original interpretation, whether something is divine has nothing to do with their mortality or strength. What makes a god in physical terms is that they allow spiritual magic to exist. Divine power is channeled through the magic-users that follow them, making it possible to cast spells. Arkati are one type of god, though there are other beings with similar natures (certain greater demons and elementals). The difference between Arkati and other gods is a matter of degree since they can extend their power over all of Elanthia. Whether it is possible for someone to become a god on their own is not known, but there are no documented instances of mortals ascending without the express intervention of an existing god, and worship by itself does not confer this kind of power.

In the current interpretation I think many players can call them "patrons" because the mechanics of spiritual magic have become mostly decoupled from worship and the gods don't personally appear to smite heretics often enough.

For roleplaying inspiration I feel it's helpful to look at henotheism in human history (the sole worship of one god while acknowledging the existence of others), which is how many Elanthian societies are portrayed, and try to incorporate certain themes of how and why people have practiced it.

>That official documentation doesn't make ANY sense.

>I think that, whoever wrote the old documentation thought that worship meant "abject humilitation" or "Going to Church and whining to God"...they certainly didn't own a copy of the Oxford Dictionary.

>Gasp Joining VOLN is worshipping VOLN as an EXPRESSION OF REVERENCE AND ADORATION. Elven heresy. Thus this official docs are lame and should be retconned.

and people say I'm harsh!

>>Yup, the more I think about it, the more I think you all are out of genre and out of character unless they are a dark elf or have no social conditioning whatsoever. These are the most powerful beings in Elanthia, nobody knows their origin stories IC, and there is far more evidence for them than there was for Christ's existence in the real middle ages of Earth...

>>Arkati belief would be widespread and that just isn't reflected in the RP populace.

I agree with you that belief in the Gods of Elanthia as actual Gods is under-represented. It's a shame. I have an observation and then a question.

1) This game has been around a very long time. A large number of the players have been playing it for a very long time. I would hazard to say that 15-20 or more years ago, there was much more immediacy felt for that sort of Roleplay, and for exploring those sorts of ideas in a fantasy setting, and thus it was more prevalent. As the years go by and people look for ways to keep their characters fresh and interesting, they take them in different ways. Or roll up new characters to explore different ideas. At the moment the pendulum of "social mores" may have largely swung one way, but will it stay there? Who knows?

2) Keeping in mind that the Arkati can not be defined in the same way as God (or Gods, or what have you) in the modern world, why would any inhabitant of Elanthia worship them at all? They are not ineffable. There is no doubt that they exist. Many of them have been seen, at one point or another.

When the armies of (insert-name-here) have been defeated, time and time again, why would anyone think other than along the lines of "Oh yeah, that guy. Well, I wouldn't want to meet him in a back alley, but if he was REALLY powerful he would have destroyed the city ten times over by now."


Avaia, player of

Doctor Manhattan, in "Watchmen," actually had a good answer when he was questioned about being perceived as a god: "I'm not omniscient." The Arkati aren't omniscient. But then, is that a requirement, in Elanthia? I haven't seen anything in the Elanthian culture which necessarily suggests that somebody has to be omniscient to be a god.

The Elanthian perception of the attributes of a god could be entirely different from the American (or any other real-world culture) perception of the attributes of a god. I think, all in all, the question of "what attributes unambiguously define a god?" can't fundamentally be answered for Elanthia within the scope of published lore references, so there's no valid solution to the problem save "everybody RP what they find meaningful for their character and let everyone else do the same."

---

Laelithonel: Mari is like getting a giant wheel of smoked gouda with a cute pink bow on it
Laelithonel: it's exciting. i'd love the wheel. i know eating it will kill me

I'm confused about this perception that following is not a form of worship. What do people think worship is? All "following" is a form of emulation, and what is emulation if not the actual literal assumption of the godform as it has been regarded throughout the entirety of human evolution?

Do not confuse belief with worship, they are two entirely different things when it comes to religion, especially in-game. Don't expect the definitions of how to follow the Gemstone gods to become any more rigid because that would detract from the RP associated with GS religion; no one wants to be locked in to how they must follow their chosen deity.

Nearly everything is Gemstone is highly generalized for a reason. Holes are left in histories, gaps are left in tales, stories, and fables. All of these allow our characters the freedom to choose their own individual paths, without the argument about what is right and what is not.

Would I like to see things is GS more defined? Sure, some things. Do I understand why they aren't more defined? Yeah, I do, and I would much rather have things the way they are now than to be forced to believe in something when my character just might not see it that way.

General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

http://radeekandoran.blogspot.ca/

http://thetehirchronicles.blogspot.ca/

The knowledge that the Arkati are not the strongest beings is one reason why my character (a Dhe'nar) never considered them gods. The Ur-daemons went to war with the Drakes, readily killing nearly all of them, so even they are not the greatest candidates for worship. Then there is the idea the Drakes created them and treated them like pets or servants. At best you could consider them the children of the Drakes, just as the "mortal" races are the children of the Arkati.

They die, they are fallible, they squabble amongst themselves. Some are petty, others brash and vindictive. None of this knowledge lends itself to worship of highly imperfect beings.

---

!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"

The Enlightenment? With the racism, feudalism, warfare and rivalry between cities, and lack of interest for scientific research? Nah. Elanthia is built around the middle ages, not the Enlightenment. I don't even know if an Enlightenment can occur in Elanthia with the physics of the universe it is in (magic.)coupled with vastly different species of humanoids. The Enlightenment era humans only had race and sex to deal with, not other species which could not interbreed with them. If it were Enlightenment era, then it would make even more sense for the elves and humans to regard the Arkati as divine. Part of the Enlightenment era thinking was the idea that Man was divine, (even up to the heretical sounding Deus est Homo) alongside God. There is no Elanthian equivalent for Greece, the rediscovery of which was the basis for what sparked the Enlightenment. Vornavis would basically have to become the Roman Catholic Church to spark a 30-year war, to catch up to the major religious elements of The Enlightenment. It hasn't gone that far yet. Your ideas on what constitute divinity are off by a mile according to Oxford.

adjective

1
Of or like God or a god.
‘heroes with divine powers’

‘paintings of shipwrecks being prevented by divine intervention’
More example sentencesSynonyms

1.1 Devoted to God; sacred.
‘divine liturgy’


By this definition, adventurers are divine. Clerics who are devoted to a God are divine. So your definition of divine doesn't seem to agree with any conventional definition of "divine." If anyone starts arguing about the word God, I'll let you all learn how to use a dictionary and look up God yourself - there is no reason why the Arkati could not be regarded as Gods, even by secular humans in our modern world, unless that person refuses to abide by the dictionary definition of words which generally guide inquiries like this...


There are a lot of other beings, but none have succeeded in breaking the Liabo grasp on Elanthia. So there's no reason for any civilization to break faith with them, save for the Faendryl, who were pretty much left to their own devices in Rhoska Tor.

"Not to drive this discussion too off-topic, but I think one of the largest barriers to having faith actively roleplayed in this game stems from a broken death system. You can claim it is OOC knowledge, but our characters literally cannot permanently die. How could we fail from an IC sense to notice that you can be struck down a hundred times and always be reborn? Only NPCs, GM controlled or system-genned can truly be destroyed. You don't even need deeds, which once made Lorminstra a figure worth worship.

I understand permadeath is bad for Simutronics bottom line, but without the threat of real and lasting death how can you truly have the "fear of god" put into you? "

It is quite possible to permanently die. But the simple answer is, our characters become powerful because they are "chosen" somehow. They learn how to game the system with deeds but they are also remarkable people who were set up for great things...none of us play regular jackoffs.

You can always have a character permanently die, or allow them to age naturally and die off. It's a role-play choice, and one I've made many times when I decide it's time. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it needs to be taken into account when deciding how the story will be written. Do you role-play that you never get lost and always have a map handy just because you use Tsoran's maps or Narost?

Roleplaying is a gift we give to others. I will never be able to suspend disbelief enough to fully engage with my own character and believe he or she is totally real and believable. That's what watching other characters is for. Anyone else who thinks otherwise just hasn't roleplayed long enough to figure out that group RP is inherently a potluck where the dish you bring is the one you probably will enjoy or remember the least in the long run.

I always thought it was made really obvious that all of the donations to Lorminstra either go towards powering her abilities or to the poor. The messaging in Icemule Trace is really strong. While regarding Lorminstra as greedy is a popular opinion, I never thought it made any sense, since it's pretty clear that there are very specific rules regarding the gems and silvers. Gems are worth a lot more, meaning that they are being used for something specific by the priesthood. When chrism gems came out, a lot of people realized that Lorminstra and her priests were using them towards a specific purpose - it wasn't that they were just greedy.

She is also the only one who can do what she does, otherwise, some other Arkati would have stepped in in order to offer "free" resurrection.

Regarding Lorminstra as merely greedy is a simplistic and even irrational view of what might actually be going on there in the story.

Also, if Lorminstra is not a god, then why should she not charge for her services? Is she one or the other? Do we complain when clerics expect payment to continue rescuing and rezzing our asses? Capitalism isn't really a crime.

Why would Lorminstra WANT gems, anyways? Does she go shopping at the airship on vacation? Does she lounge about on a bed of gems for pleasure? Why would the other Liabo gods hang out with that kind of a deity? She is not the goddess of gems. She is the goddess of winter. It might be that she is trying to help mortals let go of material attachment - young newbies can get a deed for virtually nothing. It's when you start getting a lot of deeds and rising in the ranks that they become costly. Think about this people...it isn't as simple-simon as you all make it out to be.


There is a much bigger picture to all of these beings and people have glommed on to these simplistic tropes that are just dull to listen to and roleplay with all day.

Yeah yeah, you and every other random roleplayer engaged with the theology of Elanthia has these "very specific" beliefs, which are just average assumptions, made hastily and oft-repeated due to OOC influences and borrrrring.

Not only am I not required to understand it, I don't want to. It's just too boring to care about.

No one is invalidating your roleplay choices except for yourself. People can do whatever they like with their character, I'm just trying to show those who are able to wrap their heads around it a better way to do it. The characters exist in a world which is vastly intricate and steeped in a thousands of years of an alien culture.

Anyone, including myself, who thinks they have learned all they can about how to go about realistically portraying such an amazing scenario is completely dull beyond belief...

Glad I could offend and disturb...an artist's job, after all...