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>>RAVANA729: I'm confused about this perception that following is not a form of worship. What do people think worship is? All "following" is a form of emulation, and what is emulation if not the actual literal assumption of the godform as it has been regarded throughout the entirety of human evolution?
>>RAVANA729: Why Elanthians would have this peckish preference for "worship" vs. "following" is beyond me. It strikes me as a out of character hangup surrounding anti-monotheism and Enlightenment era ideas (atheism and secular rights.)
Worship has the nuance of things like religious rites and ceremony, whereas follow is more like feeling someone is of a like-mind whose ideas you appreciate. Worship has the nuance of powerful being vs peon, whereas follow has the nuance of a mentor/mentee relationship. Monotheism doesn't exist in Elanthia. Never has. Monotheism requires the belief that there is only one God. If Arkati/Lesser Spirits are considered to be gods, then obviously monotheism falls short since there are many Arkati and many Lesser Spirits. If Arkati/Lesser Spirits are not considered to be gods, then monotheism falls short since there are no other beings considered to be gods at present. I don't even see how the Enlightenment Era is relevant or applicable to your argument other than to just throw out something that sounds academic. Many cultures do not see Arkati as "gods" but rather as mortal and very powerful beings. Even if you feel this is an OOC standpoint, the documents the game is based on clearly support this.
>>RAVANA729: Yes, for dark elves I guess it works, although a dark elf follower of any arkati never made much sense to me, which is why I never play dark elves...since theological roleplay is fun.
Playing a dark elf character does not exempt that character from theological roleplay. I would recommend that you go out and actually interact with some DE roleplayers and actually experience, rather than just assume, how certain things can be roleplayed out and be logical.
>>RAVANA729: I see almost everyone echoing this "non-worshipper" stance and it just doesn't make sense in a medieval fantasy world where the races have medieval thinking in many ways, yet seem oh-so-21st century in their religious thoughts.
This isn't quite a medieval world, however. It's got that feel to it, but Elanthia is not Earth, and what happened in medieval times on earth doesn't require Elanthia to have a parallel and be in lock step. Elanthia does NOT have a medieval approach to religion and spirituality. At all.
>>RAVANA729: I thank the GM's for at least not writing the lore like that, and providing the means to more dramatic role play.
Roleplay isn't limited to what's in a document. Dramatic roleplay comes from the player, from their take on a situation, not from an acted out checklist of behaviors and beliefs. The docs are a guideline, but they do not define all facets of Elanthia and do not lock everyone to their boundaries.
>>RAVANA729: As for Tilamaire, and the idea that 'all gods are the same" my logic would run differently for my character...if she dared to think about it, she would just reason, like Voln, Tilamaire is supplied power from Liabo, specifically from Cholen himself, and for Amaselan followers, that power comes from Lornon, specifically from Luukos.
Liabo is not a generator of powers. It's a moon. Arkati powers do not come from the moons.
>>RAVANA729: You've not convinced me that your characters' thought process is anything but OOC bias. It wouldn't matter if it was just a handful of nutty dark elves. It just seems to me everyone adopts this postmodern outlook for their character, whether Vaaloran or human, and it strikes me as bit boring and inauthentic to the world the characters live in.
It would seem that your character's thought process is also an OOC bias - just in the other direction. I find it fascinating that you feel you can somehow transcend time periods with your own thought process and see the big picture so clearly that you pity us for our inability to do the same. If it's so boring, then why have you been spending your time writing posts on the subject? Clearly, you don't find it boring else you would have disengaged. So let's just stop with that. If you believe that the mindset of an Elf considering the Arkati not as gods to be inauthentic, then I would suggest you go back and re-read the Elven cultural documents.
>>RAVANA729: The middle ages were sophisticated in some ways, but almost everyone would be murdered by the state if they were to deny Christ or assert the primacy of science in just about any way. I don't think a progressive idea of the Arkati as being what they are - just weird beings of some kind - makes sense at all except as a deviant sort of behavior in Elanthia.
What happened in the middle ages *is not relevant to what happens in Elanthia*. We are not roleplaying in a parallel world. We get that your personal opinion is that Arkati must be gods in Elanthia and that anything else is "modern", however that is simply your opinion and not a reflection of the beliefs of the Elanthian cultures at large.
>>RAVANA729: "I guess that being lead by Lorminstra herself back from the brink of death is just not a religious experience. I guess that hundreds of invasions by giant black panthers and Sheruvian heralds IS NOT ENOUGH.
I CANNOT SAY OOC ENOUGH..."
It's not a religious experience. It's a spiritual experience. An invasion by giant black panthers is not necessarily an indication that a being is a "god" and not just a very powerful being.
Calling something "OOC" doesn't make it so. You haven't done anything to support your claim that everything is OOC other than stamp your foot and call it OOC, postmodern, and boring. Are you implying that EVERY SINGLE person in the middle ages believed in Christianity? Do you believe that Christ was an actual, real living person that walked the Earth, who interacted with humankind the way the Arkati interact with Elanthia? And that therefore everyone must believe Arkati are gods because you believe that's just how it was with Christ in the middle ages and we must adhere to that mindset?
>>RAVANA729: "Arkati belief would be widespread and that just isn't reflected in the RP populace."
It sound seem that you are taking a modern interpretation of atheism and applying it to Elanthia. Atheism in Elanthia does not mean one does not believe that the Arkati are real. It is indisputable that the Arkati are real beings. Atheism in Elanthia means that one does not believe the Arkati are gods. In our 21st century mindset, atheism is the belief that god is not a god, and generally assumes that god is not real (the nuance here is that not everyone believes Jesus was an actual person, and some people do, however all atheists believe Jesus is not a god).
>>RAVANA729: That official documentation doesn't make ANY sense. What is the difference between a God who patronizes you and a God whom you worship?
>>RAVANA729: Absolutely nothing. This is basic invocation/evocation stuff dating back to Egypt. Worship has always been understood in human history as a symbiotic relationship.
Considering this is Elanthia and human history is irrelevant, I'm not sure why what the Egyptians did is relevant to Elanthia. However, since you brought it up...
There is s huge difference between a being that patronizes you and a god you worship. A patron is one who supports you. It is a trickle down relationship. Tilamaire may choose to bless a party and make the music more lively and the dancer's feet a little more agile - that's a patron bestowing favor. Tilamaire can do that whenever she wants, independent of any religious rites performed in her name or not performed at lal. Worship, as stated earlier, has the implications of the adherent engaging in religious rituals in the honor of the deity and has the hope of a symbiotic relationship.
>>RAVANA729: The elves do all of the following with the Arkati at some point or another, except for those we don't know about (the hidden cities in the Nations and Ta'Faendryl)
Did. The Elves no longer see the Arkati as gods.
>>RAVANA729: Gasp Joining VOLN is worshipping VOLN as an EXPRESSION OF REVERENCE AND ADORATION. Elven heresy. Thus this official docs are lame and should be retconned.
That's certainly one interpretation of it. Simply because you disagree doesn't make your opinion correct. I suggest you go read the origin of the Order of Voln, though.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
ANGELOFSHARATH
ANGELOFSHARATH
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:02 PM CST
>>RAVANA729: Christ and God are real to all Christians, and they saw evidence for their presence * all the time* in the middle ages. (And to be respectful to any real Christians in the audience, all this talk of fictional religion in light of real religion is not meant to make light of your faith, I just like to compare Elanthia to the Middle Ages of Europe whenever I am gauging a standard by which to roleplay, and one of the major faiths of Middle Ages Europe was Christianity.) Things like crying statues, the shroud of Turin and even the templars and disciples of Christ all testified to his existence in their eyes. Why in the world would that discourage worship? I don't think I see your logic there. If anything, the Church milked that and to this day promotes any confirmed miracles like crazy. Followers eat it up. They make pilgrimages to the sites of miracles. This is hard evidence to these faithful.
No, we have stories that claim they saw evidence of god's presence "all the time". This is not the same thing as with in Elanthia people actually see and interact with the Arkati on a regular basis. We have claims that a miracle actually took place, and we have people that accept that as hard fact.
>>RAVANA729: How much more would the world go nuts if a shining figure with wings and blinding hair (like Phoen, the god of hair products) appeared in the skies and EVERYONE for miles around could see it. Some people would go with "aliens" or "psy-op" since we live in a modern world, but far, far more would find or regain their religion. Elanthia is not a postmodern world, it's a very archaic world steeped in magic.
Right, and what we think might happen in the real world has no bearing on Elanthia, and vice versa.
>>RAVANA729: Elanthia is a weird, dangerous unpredictable place, and Arkati offer the greatest beacon of hope - on both the light and dark sides in their own ways.
Beacon of hope for......what?
>>RAVANA729: I still think this aversion to Arkati is an OOC hangup. What I don't know is if it's an atheistic recoiling from the evils religion has wrought in our real lives, or if it's some kind of hesitation on the part of the faithful to worship anything else but their real-life god, even in roleplay. Either way, I don't like it, and I don't understand it.
I think you're confusing message board posts from players debating documentation (which is what is going on here), with actual roleplay (which you seem to have limited experience in receiving based on your comments). I also think you're presuming that none of us have played characters across the spectrum. Personally, I have played atheistic characters and religious zealots, and my main character right now is an atheistic zealot (but not in the way you'd think!). Just because you don't like or understand something doesn't make it wrong and you right. Your stance is being just as close-minded as you are telling us we all are.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: But the Greek Gods were all fallible. They made mistakes, and were just regular jackoffs like any other human in their stories. The Nordic Gods were even able to be slain. Didn't stop humans from worshipping these. This still goes on to this day. Iceland is even raising a temple to Odin this coming spring, despite the fact that he's going to die in Ragnarok.
The Greek gods were also very much not real. They were stories, they were events that were attributed to them, but they were not real. Not the way the Arkati are real to Elanthians. Same for the Nordic gods.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: Do you role-play that you never get lost and always have a map handy just because you use Tsoran's maps or Narost?
My character has a collection of scripted maps, so yes, I personally do roleplay that. Evarin also has maps :)
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: Why would Lorminstra WANT gems, anyways? Does she go shopping at the airship on vacation? Does she lounge about on a bed of gems for pleasure? Why would the other Liabo gods hang out with that kind of a deity? She is not the goddess of gems. She is the goddess of winter. It might be that she is trying to help mortals let go of material attachment - young newbies can get a deed for virtually nothing. It's when you start getting a lot of deeds and rising in the ranks that they become costly. Think about this people...it isn't as simple-simon as you all make it out to be.
Perhaps she doesn't want the gem. She wants the sacrifice of you giving up the gem - THAT is what is of value to her. The more you have, the more it takes to equate to a sacrifice of note. That is what she wants - the sacrifice.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: Yeah yeah, you and every other random roleplayer engaged with the theology of Elanthia has these "very specific" beliefs, which are just average assumptions, made hastily and oft-repeated due to OOC influences and borrrrring.
Versus your beliefs that are 100% in character with 0% outside influence? If we're so boring, why are you continuing the conversation? (Did you switch accounts? Because really, I can't even.) ALL decisions we make as players have an OOC influence. Because WE are OOC. Our characters cannot exist without our OOCness.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: No one is invalidating your roleplay choices except for yourself. People can do whatever they like with their character, I'm just trying to show those who are able to wrap their heads around it a better way to do it. The characters exist in a world which is vastly intricate and steeped in a thousands of years of an alien culture.
No, you are showing what you interpret to be a different way. Your way is not automatically better because you believe it is, and believing something is better does not automatically make that a reality.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: Anyone, including myself, who thinks they have learned all they can about how to go about realistically portraying such an amazing scenario is completely dull beyond belief...
If you believe you can't realistically portray it, then why are you trying? What's the point in expending your mental energy in thinking up "a better way" and what's the point of trying to share your "better way"? What's the point of your posts all across the board on the topic of religion? What's the point in choosing cleric as your character's profession if you feel you're incapable of portraying it well?
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
No, we have stories that claim they saw evidence of god's presence "all the time". This is not the same thing as with in Elanthia people actually see and interact with the Arkati on a regular basis. We have claims that a miracle actually took place, and we have people that accept that as hard fact.
>>RAVANA729: How much more would the world go nuts if a shining figure with wings and blinding hair (like Phoen, the god of hair products) appeared in the skies and EVERYONE for miles around could see it. Some people would go with "aliens" or "psy-op" since we live in a modern world, but far, far more would find or regain their religion. Elanthia is not a postmodern world, it's a very archaic world steeped in magic.
Right, and what we think might happen in the real world has no bearing on Elanthia, and vice versa.
>>RAVANA729: Elanthia is a weird, dangerous unpredictable place, and Arkati offer the greatest beacon of hope - on both the light and dark sides in their own ways.
Beacon of hope for......what?
>>RAVANA729: I still think this aversion to Arkati is an OOC hangup. What I don't know is if it's an atheistic recoiling from the evils religion has wrought in our real lives, or if it's some kind of hesitation on the part of the faithful to worship anything else but their real-life god, even in roleplay. Either way, I don't like it, and I don't understand it.
I think you're confusing message board posts from players debating documentation (which is what is going on here), with actual roleplay (which you seem to have limited experience in receiving based on your comments). I also think you're presuming that none of us have played characters across the spectrum. Personally, I have played atheistic characters and religious zealots, and my main character right now is an atheistic zealot (but not in the way you'd think!). Just because you don't like or understand something doesn't make it wrong and you right. Your stance is being just as close-minded as you are telling us we all are.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: But the Greek Gods were all fallible. They made mistakes, and were just regular jackoffs like any other human in their stories. The Nordic Gods were even able to be slain. Didn't stop humans from worshipping these. This still goes on to this day. Iceland is even raising a temple to Odin this coming spring, despite the fact that he's going to die in Ragnarok.
The Greek gods were also very much not real. They were stories, they were events that were attributed to them, but they were not real. Not the way the Arkati are real to Elanthians. Same for the Nordic gods.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: Do you role-play that you never get lost and always have a map handy just because you use Tsoran's maps or Narost?
My character has a collection of scripted maps, so yes, I personally do roleplay that. Evarin also has maps :)
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: Why would Lorminstra WANT gems, anyways? Does she go shopping at the airship on vacation? Does she lounge about on a bed of gems for pleasure? Why would the other Liabo gods hang out with that kind of a deity? She is not the goddess of gems. She is the goddess of winter. It might be that she is trying to help mortals let go of material attachment - young newbies can get a deed for virtually nothing. It's when you start getting a lot of deeds and rising in the ranks that they become costly. Think about this people...it isn't as simple-simon as you all make it out to be.
Perhaps she doesn't want the gem. She wants the sacrifice of you giving up the gem - THAT is what is of value to her. The more you have, the more it takes to equate to a sacrifice of note. That is what she wants - the sacrifice.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: Yeah yeah, you and every other random roleplayer engaged with the theology of Elanthia has these "very specific" beliefs, which are just average assumptions, made hastily and oft-repeated due to OOC influences and borrrrring.
Versus your beliefs that are 100% in character with 0% outside influence? If we're so boring, why are you continuing the conversation? (Did you switch accounts? Because really, I can't even.) ALL decisions we make as players have an OOC influence. Because WE are OOC. Our characters cannot exist without our OOCness.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: No one is invalidating your roleplay choices except for yourself. People can do whatever they like with their character, I'm just trying to show those who are able to wrap their heads around it a better way to do it. The characters exist in a world which is vastly intricate and steeped in a thousands of years of an alien culture.
No, you are showing what you interpret to be a different way. Your way is not automatically better because you believe it is, and believing something is better does not automatically make that a reality.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS: Anyone, including myself, who thinks they have learned all they can about how to go about realistically portraying such an amazing scenario is completely dull beyond belief...
If you believe you can't realistically portray it, then why are you trying? What's the point in expending your mental energy in thinking up "a better way" and what's the point of trying to share your "better way"? What's the point of your posts all across the board on the topic of religion? What's the point in choosing cleric as your character's profession if you feel you're incapable of portraying it well?
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
ZHOUY1
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:22 PM CST
Correct me if I am wrong but the documentation that Faendryl are a nation of atheists was, at the time, a massive retcon that upset a lot of players who were essentially being told that they've been roleplaying wrong all along. Some went with it, others chose to disregard the document for the sake of character consistency.
> The basic historical framework of the game is loosely built on a parallel to Tolkien. There is little religion in Middle Earth. The Elves and Wizards do magic, the higher powers are matter-of-fact and distant, and everyone agrees Sauron is one with worshippers, but he's a huge jerk so they put him down when he tries to manifest and impose himself.
One can trace a direct line from Catholicism (unitary God with many angels) - to Middle Earth (Eru with many Ainur/Valar/Maiar) - to Shadow World Kulthea (deities being similar to a Maiar caste, but also literally space aliens) - to Elanthia (vaguely defined and often contradictory ideas, and GemStone gods are maybe, maybe not, the same as those of DragonRealms). A lot has been thrown into the mix, some significant facets like the spheres of influence have been implicitly pushed out for the same of gameplay. That is at once good and bad, I think - you are free to roleplay any sort of belief you want without gameplay repercussions, you can be a powerful spiritualist while not having any sort of faith, but it also hurts immersion to a degree when anything goes.
> The basic historical framework of the game is loosely built on a parallel to Tolkien. There is little religion in Middle Earth. The Elves and Wizards do magic, the higher powers are matter-of-fact and distant, and everyone agrees Sauron is one with worshippers, but he's a huge jerk so they put him down when he tries to manifest and impose himself.
One can trace a direct line from Catholicism (unitary God with many angels) - to Middle Earth (Eru with many Ainur/Valar/Maiar) - to Shadow World Kulthea (deities being similar to a Maiar caste, but also literally space aliens) - to Elanthia (vaguely defined and often contradictory ideas, and GemStone gods are maybe, maybe not, the same as those of DragonRealms). A lot has been thrown into the mix, some significant facets like the spheres of influence have been implicitly pushed out for the same of gameplay. That is at once good and bad, I think - you are free to roleplay any sort of belief you want without gameplay repercussions, you can be a powerful spiritualist while not having any sort of faith, but it also hurts immersion to a degree when anything goes.
HERMESTRISMEGISTUS
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:27 PM CST
>>Girl I don't even see how the Enlightenment Era is relevant or applicable to your argument other than to just throw out something that sounds academic. "
What.
I was responding to Xorus' player who brought it up, not you. Yes I'm sure Xorus' and my goal in life is to sound academic on video game chat forums in order to impress other nerds...
Just wait until I pull out more obscure time periods like the Renaissance and the Tudor era. Then they will see!
ANGELOFSHARATH
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:31 PM CST
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS What.
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS I was responding to Xorus' player who brought it up, not you. Yes I'm sure Xorus' and my goal in life is to sound academic on video game chat forums in order to impress other nerds...
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS Just wait until I pull out more obscure time periods like the Renaissance and the Tudor era. Then they will see!
I was responding to your statement referencing the Enlightenment Era. Obscure time periods from RL timelines have no bearing on what happened/happens in Elanthia, so there's no point to bring them up.
Completely irrelevant tangent: OMG quoting on this forums is so annoying.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS I was responding to Xorus' player who brought it up, not you. Yes I'm sure Xorus' and my goal in life is to sound academic on video game chat forums in order to impress other nerds...
>>HERMESTRISMEGISTUS Just wait until I pull out more obscure time periods like the Renaissance and the Tudor era. Then they will see!
I was responding to your statement referencing the Enlightenment Era. Obscure time periods from RL timelines have no bearing on what happened/happens in Elanthia, so there's no point to bring them up.
Completely irrelevant tangent: OMG quoting on this forums is so annoying.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
HERMESTRISMEGISTUS
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:44 PM CST
Xst Debia, are you really too lazy to read what I wrote? Xorus brought up the Enlightenment - and he wasn't wrong to do so since it is the logical progression of a medieval age - that is what I was responding to. It really has nothing to do with whatever the hell you think is going on with either of us and our "academic snobbery"...so please, feel free to ignore that entire conversation since it appears to be completely lost on you anyways and wasn't directed at you.
LORDEVARIN
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:49 PM CST
>So you were saying?
I'm saying Arkati can permanently die and it doesn't seem my character can do so.
>It is quite possible to permanently die.
How?
>They learn how to game the system with deeds
E never had a deed in his life. Still comes back every time.
>It's a role-play choice, and one I've made many times when I decide it's time.
We're entering the realm of free form roleplay. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I'm speaking to what is mechanically possible.
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
I'm saying Arkati can permanently die and it doesn't seem my character can do so.
>It is quite possible to permanently die.
How?
>They learn how to game the system with deeds
E never had a deed in his life. Still comes back every time.
>It's a role-play choice, and one I've made many times when I decide it's time.
We're entering the realm of free form roleplay. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I'm speaking to what is mechanically possible.
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
HERMESTRISMEGISTUS
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:52 PM CST
Okay am I missing something, did they take away permadeath? I have embrassingly enough permadeathed 2 characters on accident, a long time ago, and 3 mains on purpose (rerolling.)
LORDEVARIN
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:54 PM CST
>Okay am I missing something, did they take away permadeath? I have embrassingly enough permadeathed 2 characters on accident, a long time ago, and 3 mains on purpose (rerolling.)
Correct. It's gone.
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
Correct. It's gone.
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
ANGELOFSHARATH
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:55 PM CST
>>Xst Debia, are you really too lazy to read what I wrote? Xorus brought up the Enlightenment - and he wasn't wrong to do so since it is the logical progression of a medieval age - that is what I was responding to. It really has nothing to do with whatever the hell you think is going on with either of us and our "academic snobbery"...so please, feel free to ignore that entire conversation since it appears to be completely lost on you anyways and wasn't directed at you.
Are you really too lazy to go back and see why I even mentioned it? I was responding to a quote, though in hindsight it looks like I attached the wrong name to the quote.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
Are you really too lazy to go back and see why I even mentioned it? I was responding to a quote, though in hindsight it looks like I attached the wrong name to the quote.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
ANGELOFSHARATH
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 02:57 PM CST
>>Okay am I missing something, did they take away permadeath? I have embrassingly enough permadeathed 2 characters on accident, a long time ago, and 3 mains on purpose (rerolling.)
Quite some time ago. It was quite a big thing when the death system was changed, so I'm not sure where you've been.
PCs have no means of permanent death anymore. They can be deleted or rerolled or retired, and that removes the character from the game, but doesn't mean that they've gone beyond the gate.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
Quite some time ago. It was quite a big thing when the death system was changed, so I'm not sure where you've been.
PCs have no means of permanent death anymore. They can be deleted or rerolled or retired, and that removes the character from the game, but doesn't mean that they've gone beyond the gate.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
GS4-AULIS
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/13/2017 05:37 PM CST
Let's try and back away from the insults and the vulgarity in this thread, please. It's been a very interesting discussion, but the conversation is getting heated now and insults and vulgarity are starting to spew forth.
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
HERMESTRISMEGISTUS
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 03:20 AM CST
I don't know what I think about that. I must have missed that year. I don't think I really care, as I'm not a mechanics based roleplayer.
There's always been two kinds of roleplayers - "mechanics" focused people and ones that like to imagine a real universe. There are problems associated with both styles.
I would be more likely to go with the idea that people do die permanently in Elanthia, and that adventurers do as well, they're just protected by some force. I would be inclined not to look at mechanics for that in roleplay but rather attribute it to one or another cosmic power.
You may do as you like, of course, but does it make your character more interesting to role-play them as invincible? It might, but I don't think it's realistic to believe they really know...
There's always been two kinds of roleplayers - "mechanics" focused people and ones that like to imagine a real universe. There are problems associated with both styles.
I would be more likely to go with the idea that people do die permanently in Elanthia, and that adventurers do as well, they're just protected by some force. I would be inclined not to look at mechanics for that in roleplay but rather attribute it to one or another cosmic power.
You may do as you like, of course, but does it make your character more interesting to role-play them as invincible? It might, but I don't think it's realistic to believe they really know...
ANGELOFSHARATH
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 12:35 PM CST
>>I would be more likely to go with the idea that people do die permanently in Elanthia, and that adventurers do as well, they're just protected by some force. I would be inclined not to look at mechanics for that in roleplay but rather attribute it to one or another cosmic power.
>>You may do as you like, of course, but does it make your character more interesting to role-play them as invincible? It might, but I don't think it's realistic to believe they really know...
If you read the death messaging, it clearly indicates that you're sent to purgatory and then are escorted back to the world of the living by Lorminstra. So they are in fact protected by a force. The fuel for that force is no longer deeds, it's something unknown to adventurers.
I wager you haven't RPed with characters who roleplay they are invincible and are not doing so because of death mechanics. A well-portrayed character is interesting, regardless if one agrees with their personal viewpoint or not. Characters can (and have!) performed experiments with death and to form conclusions based on their results.
I'm not sure why there are so many reworded attempts in calling other people's roleplay boring and disinteresting. Finding such extreme levels of boredom in the roleplay of everyone around is going to make for a poor playing experience. One can only reach a certain level of "realism" in Elanthia. Unless we are a person, lived their life and underwent their experiences, we can only speculate how they would think, feel, or act. Our characters are figments of our imagination. We haven't lived (and can't live) their lives (or anything close to it), so to arbitrarily state that something is boring, unrealistic, or that a mindset is completely unplausible, is not serving a purpose to anyone.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
>>You may do as you like, of course, but does it make your character more interesting to role-play them as invincible? It might, but I don't think it's realistic to believe they really know...
If you read the death messaging, it clearly indicates that you're sent to purgatory and then are escorted back to the world of the living by Lorminstra. So they are in fact protected by a force. The fuel for that force is no longer deeds, it's something unknown to adventurers.
I wager you haven't RPed with characters who roleplay they are invincible and are not doing so because of death mechanics. A well-portrayed character is interesting, regardless if one agrees with their personal viewpoint or not. Characters can (and have!) performed experiments with death and to form conclusions based on their results.
I'm not sure why there are so many reworded attempts in calling other people's roleplay boring and disinteresting. Finding such extreme levels of boredom in the roleplay of everyone around is going to make for a poor playing experience. One can only reach a certain level of "realism" in Elanthia. Unless we are a person, lived their life and underwent their experiences, we can only speculate how they would think, feel, or act. Our characters are figments of our imagination. We haven't lived (and can't live) their lives (or anything close to it), so to arbitrarily state that something is boring, unrealistic, or that a mindset is completely unplausible, is not serving a purpose to anyone.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
ZHOUY1
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 01:38 PM CST
One of the practical difficulties I have had with the current free-form approach is that it's very easy to get into a situation where your interpretation is incompatible with someone else's, even though you play characters who should be coming from the same culture. To take an example which was mentioned upthread, L'Naere is lore-wise considered to have died or disappeared a hundred thousand years ago. It is a reasonable inference that the Aelotoi came to believe that L'Naere had disappeared because their worship no longer granted any magical power in return. Eventually they forgot whether she truly existed at all. Now in the present day, quite a few Aelotoi players have decided they would like to roleplay as L'Naere worshippers, so it is an important question whether this actually grants any magical power on Elanthia. Yes and no are both supportable answers but they are not compatible with each other, so when you run into someone who has reached the opposite conclusion it becomes rather awkward to discuss the topic.
UBERWENCH
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 02:50 PM CST
>One of the practical difficulties I have had with the current free-form approach is that it's very easy to get into a situation where your interpretation is incompatible with someone else's, even though you play characters who should be coming from the same culture.
Yes, and that's true of far more than just faith. How do we reconcile that and find ways for our characters to mesh despite those incompatible or even opposing viewpoints? I'm not always great at that and have sometimes just avoided certain topics in-game. That challenge happens more often when a culture's or faith's supporting documentation is open to interpretation or lacking altogether, but it also comes from players pushing at the boundaries of what's possible (I remember many years ago when a guy claimed to be Marlu's grandkid or something similar). I feel it every time I run into an Ashrim character and have to cast about for reasons why my character wouldn't instantly abhor the other.
You seem to have arrived at the same solution I did, which is to treat it like a dinner party with people who don't share your political affiliation: "Let's talk about the weather and pretend we don't hear about that other stuff!"
That, or we declare the others treacherous apostates or enemies who must be killed before they breed. :)
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
Yes, and that's true of far more than just faith. How do we reconcile that and find ways for our characters to mesh despite those incompatible or even opposing viewpoints? I'm not always great at that and have sometimes just avoided certain topics in-game. That challenge happens more often when a culture's or faith's supporting documentation is open to interpretation or lacking altogether, but it also comes from players pushing at the boundaries of what's possible (I remember many years ago when a guy claimed to be Marlu's grandkid or something similar). I feel it every time I run into an Ashrim character and have to cast about for reasons why my character wouldn't instantly abhor the other.
You seem to have arrived at the same solution I did, which is to treat it like a dinner party with people who don't share your political affiliation: "Let's talk about the weather and pretend we don't hear about that other stuff!"
That, or we declare the others treacherous apostates or enemies who must be killed before they breed. :)
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
HATESHI
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 03:16 PM CST
I think that in some ways terminology is causing OOC disagreement and conflict here.
In monotheistic Earth-based religions, a "follower" of that religion generally is assumed to 1) follow the tenants of that religious structure, AND 2) worship the single deity behind that religion, if the religion has one. Thus: someone who is Christian follows the tenants of Christianity (of whatever applicable denomination) and worships God. Polytheistic Earth-based religions are a bit more complex and understandably so, given the extra entities involved. But the concept of worship in Elanthia is most likened to monotheistic Earth-based religions, generally because most characters who follow or worship an Arkati focus their worship/following to only that Arkati.
As has already been pointed out, though, Elanthia is not Earth, and Elanthian-based religions and deities are not FULLY comparable to Earth-based religions and deities. And, hey, that's okay.
Based on the about 20 years' worth of playing GS, I have casually observed that many characters use the phrase "follower of (Deity)" more to mean "I follow the tenants and ideals that this Deity embodies or holds sway over" than "I worship (Deity) as a god and as My God". This is due to so many nuanced interpretations of how religion can be roleplayed - or HAS BEEN roleplayed - in Elanthia that is not restricted to deified worship. That's not to say that outright deity worship does not take place. But worship of the deity is not always tied to following the tenants that the same entity represents. If a character DOES worship an Arkati, generally speaking they will also outright say that they do - or likewise reference that Arkati as their God.
For example, my sylvan empath worships Imaera. Imaera is the deity whose tenants she follows, and she reveres Imaera as a divine being who embodies tremendous power and likewise bestows a tiny fraction of that to some fortunate mortals. She acknowledges the power and spheres of influence of other Arkati and likewise considers them divine, but they are not Arkati she worships, nor does she consciously follow those Arkatis' tenants.
By contrast, my elven ranger follows Andelas. Andelas' sphere of influence embodies ideals that he strives toward, and he pays homage to Andelas in appreciation for that sort of enlightenment that benefits his life. However, he does not worship Andelas as a deity, nor does he worship any being as a deity. Instead, he holds the (per documentation) typical Elven view where he acknowledges their history, their power, their influence, and their failings, and in turn he acknowledges his own miniscule place in relation to them - separate and fine with that separateness. Should any 'gifts' ever be bestowed unto him by Andelas (or any other Arkati, as Eorgina once did), he would see them simply as really awesome gifts from powerful people and not necessarily as demand for divine worship.
Going back to the point about terminology..
My sylvan is a follower of Imaera. She also worships Imeara.
My elf is a follower of Andelas, however he does NOT worship Andelas.
The two terms have very different connotations in Elanthian-based religions than Earth-based religions, regardless as to whether an individual character is a follower of (or worships) a single deity or multiple deities. This is completely apart from the concept of "Patron", although the two have similar outlooks.
I would say that another factor to consider that was referenced already is that players over time develop their own methods of enjoying how they roleplay religion, and that method is not necessarily the same over the course of many years. Exploring what is enjoyable to roleplay is important - as you've noted - because it keeps the game interesting to you. And, while roleplay is reciprocal, dictating how others should roleplay only creates exclusion.
Another problem is that for many (many) years, the only deity documents were very nebulous at best, which in turn led for in-game events (which did include actual manifestations of specific Arkati or their avatars) or player-driven storylines to cause religions to evolve in game. Compounding that further, religious documentation has always been presented as one option of interpretation.. not the be all and end all of religious doctrine, overall or specific to a single Arkati.
And a final problem into this whole mix is that there are multiple races whose lifespan lasts centuries (or millennia). We, as humans, can never fully understand the mindset of an entity that lives that long, but we can make some pretty great guesses. It's this longevity that has helped influence how many elves (of various subtypes) view Arkati as powerful beings but not necessarily Gods deserving worship. With civilizations that have endured as long as them - and with individuals who have witnessed countless acts of Arkati manifestation, some of which were not in exactly flattering situations - the whole concept of "divinity" or Godliness plausibly changes to match what documentation is presently.
This has been an interesting discussion. I hope that all sides participating in it have a greater understanding of other players' roleplayed choices and perhaps even expanded upon their own options.
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
In monotheistic Earth-based religions, a "follower" of that religion generally is assumed to 1) follow the tenants of that religious structure, AND 2) worship the single deity behind that religion, if the religion has one. Thus: someone who is Christian follows the tenants of Christianity (of whatever applicable denomination) and worships God. Polytheistic Earth-based religions are a bit more complex and understandably so, given the extra entities involved. But the concept of worship in Elanthia is most likened to monotheistic Earth-based religions, generally because most characters who follow or worship an Arkati focus their worship/following to only that Arkati.
As has already been pointed out, though, Elanthia is not Earth, and Elanthian-based religions and deities are not FULLY comparable to Earth-based religions and deities. And, hey, that's okay.
Based on the about 20 years' worth of playing GS, I have casually observed that many characters use the phrase "follower of (Deity)" more to mean "I follow the tenants and ideals that this Deity embodies or holds sway over" than "I worship (Deity) as a god and as My God". This is due to so many nuanced interpretations of how religion can be roleplayed - or HAS BEEN roleplayed - in Elanthia that is not restricted to deified worship. That's not to say that outright deity worship does not take place. But worship of the deity is not always tied to following the tenants that the same entity represents. If a character DOES worship an Arkati, generally speaking they will also outright say that they do - or likewise reference that Arkati as their God.
For example, my sylvan empath worships Imaera. Imaera is the deity whose tenants she follows, and she reveres Imaera as a divine being who embodies tremendous power and likewise bestows a tiny fraction of that to some fortunate mortals. She acknowledges the power and spheres of influence of other Arkati and likewise considers them divine, but they are not Arkati she worships, nor does she consciously follow those Arkatis' tenants.
By contrast, my elven ranger follows Andelas. Andelas' sphere of influence embodies ideals that he strives toward, and he pays homage to Andelas in appreciation for that sort of enlightenment that benefits his life. However, he does not worship Andelas as a deity, nor does he worship any being as a deity. Instead, he holds the (per documentation) typical Elven view where he acknowledges their history, their power, their influence, and their failings, and in turn he acknowledges his own miniscule place in relation to them - separate and fine with that separateness. Should any 'gifts' ever be bestowed unto him by Andelas (or any other Arkati, as Eorgina once did), he would see them simply as really awesome gifts from powerful people and not necessarily as demand for divine worship.
Going back to the point about terminology..
My sylvan is a follower of Imaera. She also worships Imeara.
My elf is a follower of Andelas, however he does NOT worship Andelas.
The two terms have very different connotations in Elanthian-based religions than Earth-based religions, regardless as to whether an individual character is a follower of (or worships) a single deity or multiple deities. This is completely apart from the concept of "Patron", although the two have similar outlooks.
I would say that another factor to consider that was referenced already is that players over time develop their own methods of enjoying how they roleplay religion, and that method is not necessarily the same over the course of many years. Exploring what is enjoyable to roleplay is important - as you've noted - because it keeps the game interesting to you. And, while roleplay is reciprocal, dictating how others should roleplay only creates exclusion.
Another problem is that for many (many) years, the only deity documents were very nebulous at best, which in turn led for in-game events (which did include actual manifestations of specific Arkati or their avatars) or player-driven storylines to cause religions to evolve in game. Compounding that further, religious documentation has always been presented as one option of interpretation.. not the be all and end all of religious doctrine, overall or specific to a single Arkati.
And a final problem into this whole mix is that there are multiple races whose lifespan lasts centuries (or millennia). We, as humans, can never fully understand the mindset of an entity that lives that long, but we can make some pretty great guesses. It's this longevity that has helped influence how many elves (of various subtypes) view Arkati as powerful beings but not necessarily Gods deserving worship. With civilizations that have endured as long as them - and with individuals who have witnessed countless acts of Arkati manifestation, some of which were not in exactly flattering situations - the whole concept of "divinity" or Godliness plausibly changes to match what documentation is presently.
This has been an interesting discussion. I hope that all sides participating in it have a greater understanding of other players' roleplayed choices and perhaps even expanded upon their own options.
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
INIQUITY
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 03:47 PM CST
<<Correct me if I am wrong but the documentation that Faendryl are a nation of atheists was, at the time, a massive retcon that upset a lot of players who were essentially being told that they've been roleplaying wrong all along. Some went with it, others chose to disregard the document for the sake of character consistency.>> - ZHOUY1
There were a number of serious issues people had with that Faendryl Empire document, though at least on this aspect, I am sure Varevice was just formalizing a long-standing and stated vision of hers for the Faendryl. It is unfortunately heavy-handed and kind of a lore drift. They were seemingly first framed to be more Drow-like, it was entirely reasonable for there to be religious fanatics. The most serious defect for my tastes was that the chronology violently contradicts all of the other lore documents.
On the other hand, she left a big loophole with the Faendryl by continuing the game's subtle history of Lovecraftian interpretations of the greater demons or dark gods, which is a context where it is entirely possible to be both an "atheist" and a deranged cultist (e.g. of Marlu) pursuing forbidden knowledge and long-buried ancient secrets.
<<One can trace a direct line from Catholicism (unitary God with many angels) - to Middle Earth (Eru with many Ainur/Valar/Maiar) - to Shadow World Kulthea (deities being similar to a Maiar caste, but also literally space aliens) - to Elanthia (vaguely defined and often contradictory ideas, and GemStone gods are maybe, maybe not, the same as those of DragonRealms). A lot has been thrown into the mix, some significant facets like the spheres of influence have been implicitly pushed out for the same of gameplay. That is at once good and bad, I think - you are free to roleplay any sort of belief you want without gameplay repercussions, you can be a powerful spiritualist while not having any sort of faith, but it also hurts immersion to a degree when anything goes.>> - ZHOUY1
Yes. I was just tracing back where this concept was taken from of Elves and higher powers having a parent/child relationship, and the mortal races expressing little religion outside of some sacred rituals. Shadow World has the same basic Lord of the Rings framework of Age of Gods, Age of Elves, Age of Men, and no shortage of things indisputably borrowed from it. In that setting the pantheon only revealed itself to the world at all because the Dark Gods showed up, and after putting them down they went back to cutting off all contact with the world for several thousand years. This is one of the reasons the Order of Vult (Voln) origin story was clearly supposed to be the monk lying to you.
In this form the "deities" are literally just self-aware essence foci with two-dimensional personalities. They are almost indestructible in absolute terms, but only for practical reasons. The Great/Dark Spirits are less powerful versions of the same thing, and the fey are still less powerful versions of the same thing. Their powers are represented as innate and there is instead the "sphere of emanation" concept, where you can draw off their power if you are within range of it. Shadow World has no ascension concept.
Interestingly, the fey are described as being shaped by their environment, but there is nothing about that for the deities. This reclassification into Lesser and Greater Gods, the ascension concept, and becoming stronger or weaker from worshippers and spheres of influence seems to have been imported from Dungeons & Dragons, which is plausible given terms like Despana, Tormtor, and Dharthiir originate in the Forgotten Realms setting.(*) In that context "divinity" --- and this is the relevant definition of that word --- is a categorical difference. Beings have a "divine rank" or they do not, regardless of how powerful they are, and something acting like a deity is not actually one if it is not "divine." There does not seem to be any such thing in this world setting. They clearly view ascended Elves such as Amasalen or Noi'sho'rah as differences of degree and not kind.
<<If you read the death messaging, it clearly indicates that you're sent to purgatory and then are escorted back to the world of the living by Lorminstra. So they are in fact protected by a force. The fuel for that force is no longer deeds, it's something unknown to adventurers.>> - Debia
The death mechanics messaging is a strange mixture of various things. It is constructed out of excerpts from H.P. Lovecraft stories about dream walking into Oblivion, which is playing off the now archaic term Gates of Oblivion. I think the deed ceremony was supposed to be referring to the idea of medieval homage to a liege lord in exchange for special rights of intercession in the context of her pre-1996 lore. The Graveyard seems to have Dante references, that's probably why they used the word Purgatory.
<<The Enlightenment? With the racism, feudalism, warfare and rivalry between cities, and lack of interest for scientific research? Nah. Elanthia is built around the middle ages, not the Enlightenment.>> - HERMESTRESMEGISTUS
The Elven monarchs resemble enlightened despots more than anything medieval, especially the Illistim's Argent Mirror. Its intellectual societies read like French salons. They have a progress oriented interpretation of cultural and racial evolution, and travel all over the world studying nature and absolutely everything. The Aelotoi NPC Alusius actually calculated the trajectory and arrival time of the Elemental Confluence from Bre'Naere to Elanthia, which is implausible without something akin to a Kepler and Galileo level of understanding of the solar system. The Faendryl are even "worse" with their Extrachthonic Cartographer's Guild, research obsession, and centralized bureaucracy.
I'm sympathetic to the view that there is too much modernity or post-modernity of attitudes in GemStone, but the game fails the litmus test for realism in tons of ways, especially in terms of believable cultural evolution and its extreme time scales. The religious lore at this point has become hopelessly incoherent and contradictory.
- Xorus' player
(*) The Rolemaster Channeling Companion does have the "spheres of influence" concept and allows ascension, but that was 1998 and I cannot seem to find an older reference.
"(If you really want to understand Marlu, I suggest reading "The Call of Cthulhu" by H.P. Lovecraft.)" - Varevice (2000)
There were a number of serious issues people had with that Faendryl Empire document, though at least on this aspect, I am sure Varevice was just formalizing a long-standing and stated vision of hers for the Faendryl. It is unfortunately heavy-handed and kind of a lore drift. They were seemingly first framed to be more Drow-like, it was entirely reasonable for there to be religious fanatics. The most serious defect for my tastes was that the chronology violently contradicts all of the other lore documents.
On the other hand, she left a big loophole with the Faendryl by continuing the game's subtle history of Lovecraftian interpretations of the greater demons or dark gods, which is a context where it is entirely possible to be both an "atheist" and a deranged cultist (e.g. of Marlu) pursuing forbidden knowledge and long-buried ancient secrets.
<<One can trace a direct line from Catholicism (unitary God with many angels) - to Middle Earth (Eru with many Ainur/Valar/Maiar) - to Shadow World Kulthea (deities being similar to a Maiar caste, but also literally space aliens) - to Elanthia (vaguely defined and often contradictory ideas, and GemStone gods are maybe, maybe not, the same as those of DragonRealms). A lot has been thrown into the mix, some significant facets like the spheres of influence have been implicitly pushed out for the same of gameplay. That is at once good and bad, I think - you are free to roleplay any sort of belief you want without gameplay repercussions, you can be a powerful spiritualist while not having any sort of faith, but it also hurts immersion to a degree when anything goes.>> - ZHOUY1
Yes. I was just tracing back where this concept was taken from of Elves and higher powers having a parent/child relationship, and the mortal races expressing little religion outside of some sacred rituals. Shadow World has the same basic Lord of the Rings framework of Age of Gods, Age of Elves, Age of Men, and no shortage of things indisputably borrowed from it. In that setting the pantheon only revealed itself to the world at all because the Dark Gods showed up, and after putting them down they went back to cutting off all contact with the world for several thousand years. This is one of the reasons the Order of Vult (Voln) origin story was clearly supposed to be the monk lying to you.
In this form the "deities" are literally just self-aware essence foci with two-dimensional personalities. They are almost indestructible in absolute terms, but only for practical reasons. The Great/Dark Spirits are less powerful versions of the same thing, and the fey are still less powerful versions of the same thing. Their powers are represented as innate and there is instead the "sphere of emanation" concept, where you can draw off their power if you are within range of it. Shadow World has no ascension concept.
Interestingly, the fey are described as being shaped by their environment, but there is nothing about that for the deities. This reclassification into Lesser and Greater Gods, the ascension concept, and becoming stronger or weaker from worshippers and spheres of influence seems to have been imported from Dungeons & Dragons, which is plausible given terms like Despana, Tormtor, and Dharthiir originate in the Forgotten Realms setting.(*) In that context "divinity" --- and this is the relevant definition of that word --- is a categorical difference. Beings have a "divine rank" or they do not, regardless of how powerful they are, and something acting like a deity is not actually one if it is not "divine." There does not seem to be any such thing in this world setting. They clearly view ascended Elves such as Amasalen or Noi'sho'rah as differences of degree and not kind.
<<If you read the death messaging, it clearly indicates that you're sent to purgatory and then are escorted back to the world of the living by Lorminstra. So they are in fact protected by a force. The fuel for that force is no longer deeds, it's something unknown to adventurers.>> - Debia
The death mechanics messaging is a strange mixture of various things. It is constructed out of excerpts from H.P. Lovecraft stories about dream walking into Oblivion, which is playing off the now archaic term Gates of Oblivion. I think the deed ceremony was supposed to be referring to the idea of medieval homage to a liege lord in exchange for special rights of intercession in the context of her pre-1996 lore. The Graveyard seems to have Dante references, that's probably why they used the word Purgatory.
<<The Enlightenment? With the racism, feudalism, warfare and rivalry between cities, and lack of interest for scientific research? Nah. Elanthia is built around the middle ages, not the Enlightenment.>> - HERMESTRESMEGISTUS
The Elven monarchs resemble enlightened despots more than anything medieval, especially the Illistim's Argent Mirror. Its intellectual societies read like French salons. They have a progress oriented interpretation of cultural and racial evolution, and travel all over the world studying nature and absolutely everything. The Aelotoi NPC Alusius actually calculated the trajectory and arrival time of the Elemental Confluence from Bre'Naere to Elanthia, which is implausible without something akin to a Kepler and Galileo level of understanding of the solar system. The Faendryl are even "worse" with their Extrachthonic Cartographer's Guild, research obsession, and centralized bureaucracy.
I'm sympathetic to the view that there is too much modernity or post-modernity of attitudes in GemStone, but the game fails the litmus test for realism in tons of ways, especially in terms of believable cultural evolution and its extreme time scales. The religious lore at this point has become hopelessly incoherent and contradictory.
- Xorus' player
(*) The Rolemaster Channeling Companion does have the "spheres of influence" concept and allows ascension, but that was 1998 and I cannot seem to find an older reference.
"(If you really want to understand Marlu, I suggest reading "The Call of Cthulhu" by H.P. Lovecraft.)" - Varevice (2000)
ANGELOFSHARATH
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 04:35 PM CST
>>One of the practical difficulties I have had with the current free-form approach is that it's very easy to get into a situation where your interpretation is incompatible with someone else's, even though you play characters who should be coming from the same culture. To take an example which was mentioned upthread, L'Naere is lore-wise considered to have died or disappeared a hundred thousand years ago. It is a reasonable inference that the Aelotoi came to believe that L'Naere had disappeared because their worship no longer granted any magical power in return. Eventually they forgot whether she truly existed at all. Now in the present day, quite a few Aelotoi players have decided they would like to roleplay as L'Naere worshippers, so it is an important question whether this actually grants any magical power on Elanthia. Yes and no are both supportable answers but they are not compatible with each other, so when you run into someone who has reached the opposite conclusion it becomes rather awkward to discuss the topic. -- ZHOUY1
If anything, it's a realistic approach and not a free-form one for people to have different interpretations of religion.
Let's look at Christianity for example. In Christianity, we have Catholics and Protestants. Under each branch we have various orthodoxies and sub-sects, such as Roman Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Calvinist, etc. Each religion is stand alone. Each religion is using the same Bible. They're all taking their own interpretations.
If we take a step backwards in the Christianity belief system, we know it's an Abrahamic religion. Abrahamic religions include Judaism and Islam in addition to Christianity. They're all worshipping the SAME God. They have their own holy books that they follow, and they all kind of touch on each other in some ways.
All of these religions are following the same God, and each one is different from the other. They're not "free-forming" it. They're following what they believe is the Truth, and they're sticking to it.
If we take culture into consideration, let's look at Americans. We all have an idea of what American culture is like - yet how many Americans follow the same exact religion, in the same exact way? How many Americans take on different religions and different interpretations of what is the Truth? Off the top of my head I could rattle off a dozen American sub-cultures that are just as American as any other. How many Americans even have the same exact interpretation of American culture, in the exact same manner?
If we look up a random cultural document on the Internet about American culture, I'm sure every one of us knows a ton of people who would just not fit that norm depicted in the document, and we probably know many that would to some extent.
My point is, the cultural documents are descriptions of the 'typical' member of that culture, but there's room for deviation from that baseline and there's room for that individual to still be considered a member of that culture. I think it's realistic for people to 'deviate' from the 'norm' of their culture.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
If anything, it's a realistic approach and not a free-form one for people to have different interpretations of religion.
Let's look at Christianity for example. In Christianity, we have Catholics and Protestants. Under each branch we have various orthodoxies and sub-sects, such as Roman Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Calvinist, etc. Each religion is stand alone. Each religion is using the same Bible. They're all taking their own interpretations.
If we take a step backwards in the Christianity belief system, we know it's an Abrahamic religion. Abrahamic religions include Judaism and Islam in addition to Christianity. They're all worshipping the SAME God. They have their own holy books that they follow, and they all kind of touch on each other in some ways.
All of these religions are following the same God, and each one is different from the other. They're not "free-forming" it. They're following what they believe is the Truth, and they're sticking to it.
If we take culture into consideration, let's look at Americans. We all have an idea of what American culture is like - yet how many Americans follow the same exact religion, in the same exact way? How many Americans take on different religions and different interpretations of what is the Truth? Off the top of my head I could rattle off a dozen American sub-cultures that are just as American as any other. How many Americans even have the same exact interpretation of American culture, in the exact same manner?
If we look up a random cultural document on the Internet about American culture, I'm sure every one of us knows a ton of people who would just not fit that norm depicted in the document, and we probably know many that would to some extent.
My point is, the cultural documents are descriptions of the 'typical' member of that culture, but there's room for deviation from that baseline and there's room for that individual to still be considered a member of that culture. I think it's realistic for people to 'deviate' from the 'norm' of their culture.
~ The girl behind Debia
****
Check out my website: www.ElanthianEvents.com
Find me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/AngelofSharath
RAVANA729
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 05:06 PM CST
Alright, I'll concede to you the point that the rulers will allow for an enlightenment, Xorus. As always you've got some smart arguments about it. I think one of the problems is we don't get an eye into their personal lives, so even though I believe Henry VIII was a catalyst for some parts of Enlightenment-era thinking, we know a lot more about him than we know anything about the elves. Sadly...the stories just don't go as deep as other game lore does, and I'm totally willing to forgive this since they've never had a Blizzard budget.
Hateshi, you make some excellent points in several key areas while possessing a diplomacy I will probably always lack. I'm sticking to my guns on the Oxford dictionary definition of worship though. I really don't care if players have gotten into a rut about it. I don't have to deal with this in Amarr religion and it annoys me here...
I think I've been inspired to create an Arkati Liabo zealot though, something which I have personally never encountered in GemStone, properly done, ever. Prepare to burn at the stake, heretic.
*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*
CLUNK24963
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 07:12 PM CST
>>One of the practical difficulties I have had with the current free-form approach is that it's very easy to get into a situation where your interpretation is incompatible with someone else's,
That's normal. Not all elves think alike. Not all dwarves think alike. Not all followers of >insert name your favorite Arkati here< think alike.
Nor should we.
>>In monotheistic Earth-based religions, a "follower" of that religion generally is assumed to
Key word is assumed. Often times, followers of a religion or practice have not even learned yet what they are supposed to believe in.
Nor should they.
>>I think I've been inspired to create an Arkati Liabo zealot though, something which I have personally never encountered in GemStone, properly done, ever. Prepare to burn at the stake, heretic.
I like that idea. Particularly if that zeal leads the character to seek out and find the characters in game that have had face-to-face encounters with Arkati and drakes. Those who have, are often not believed, or treated as unwilling followers of Zelia. That is normal.
All these differences in approaches, well, that is as it should be.
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
KANDOR
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/14/2017 09:13 PM CST
For thousands of years, phenomena that couldn't be explained were attributed to the gods. Good or bad luck was attributed to the gods. People of all stations in life feared the wrath of the gods. They feared exclusion from the afterlife. They feared to be ostracized by their friends and family. They feared betrayal and failure, whether in this life or the next. Many religions make evidence of this. This is a fantasy game, and the gods here may or may not be different, but I'd assume that most of the common folk here fear the gods a great deal, and concepts like philosophy, choice, and faith don't enter into the picture very often. Even in a fantasy world where magic can be clearly identified, just a couple of these things are enough to strike fear into men's hearts. And the pantheon here has an awful lot of evil/destroyer gods.
INIQUITY
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/15/2017 03:05 AM CST
<<I think I've been inspired to create an Arkati Liabo zealot though, something which I have personally never encountered in GemStone, properly done, ever. Prepare to burn at the stake, heretic. >> - RAVANA
I've for a long time wanted to play a Liaboan along the lines of the Vatican priest Alexander Anderson from Hellsing, or maybe Bishop Heahmund from this season of Vikings, which is straight up Dark Ages religion infuses everything death to the unbelievers. Maybe Order of Voln with, "Yes they deserve to suffer, they did not become undead by accident." It's unfortunate I did not have a "burn the heretics at the stake" character during the Chaston Griffin story, because my main really did not have much of anything to do for a lot of that, because Chaston was not the right kind of villain. Unfortunately, I missed out on most of the Althedeus thing, which was right up Xorus' alley.
- Xorus' player
"(If you really want to understand Marlu, I suggest reading "The Call of Cthulhu" by H.P. Lovecraft.)" - Varevice (2000)
I've for a long time wanted to play a Liaboan along the lines of the Vatican priest Alexander Anderson from Hellsing, or maybe Bishop Heahmund from this season of Vikings, which is straight up Dark Ages religion infuses everything death to the unbelievers. Maybe Order of Voln with, "Yes they deserve to suffer, they did not become undead by accident." It's unfortunate I did not have a "burn the heretics at the stake" character during the Chaston Griffin story, because my main really did not have much of anything to do for a lot of that, because Chaston was not the right kind of villain. Unfortunately, I missed out on most of the Althedeus thing, which was right up Xorus' alley.
- Xorus' player
"(If you really want to understand Marlu, I suggest reading "The Call of Cthulhu" by H.P. Lovecraft.)" - Varevice (2000)
ZHOUY1
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/15/2017 03:18 AM CST
> That's normal. Not all elves think alike. Not all dwarves think alike. Not all followers of >insert name your favorite Arkati here< think alike.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with different in-character belief systems. My past frustration has been with the different external, out-of-character interpretations of the documentation - the differences in how we read the rulebook. Religion doesn't exist in a vacuum. Its purpose is to explain the world. And because the documentation is so sparse, the worlds that we have built by filling in the blanks are not the same.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with different in-character belief systems. My past frustration has been with the different external, out-of-character interpretations of the documentation - the differences in how we read the rulebook. Religion doesn't exist in a vacuum. Its purpose is to explain the world. And because the documentation is so sparse, the worlds that we have built by filling in the blanks are not the same.
UBERWENCH
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/15/2017 08:29 AM CST
>It's unfortunate I did not have a "burn the heretics at the stake" character during the Chaston Griffin story
I was really sorry there were no Liabo- or Koar-affiliated characters who embraced Chaston Griffin, or at least none that I met. I thought it was a lot of fun to have someone appear whom our characters might initially perceive as a good guy despite our OOC knowledge that he was probably going to be a bad guy. He didn't start off as sinister, so it was odd to me that he got an instantly frosty reception in the Landing. My character wouldn't have done it because religion is not her bag, but if I'd had an unaligned or Liabo-leaning character, I think it would have been great fun to walk a little way down the dark path that Chaston eventually took.
A crisis of faith would have been so much fun to RP! At what point would my hypothetical Koarite have hopped off the Chaston bandwagon? Fun to think about.
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
I was really sorry there were no Liabo- or Koar-affiliated characters who embraced Chaston Griffin, or at least none that I met. I thought it was a lot of fun to have someone appear whom our characters might initially perceive as a good guy despite our OOC knowledge that he was probably going to be a bad guy. He didn't start off as sinister, so it was odd to me that he got an instantly frosty reception in the Landing. My character wouldn't have done it because religion is not her bag, but if I'd had an unaligned or Liabo-leaning character, I think it would have been great fun to walk a little way down the dark path that Chaston eventually took.
A crisis of faith would have been so much fun to RP! At what point would my hypothetical Koarite have hopped off the Chaston bandwagon? Fun to think about.
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
INIQUITY
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/15/2017 03:37 PM CST
<<Of course, there's nothing wrong with different in-character belief systems. My past frustration has been with the different external, out-of-character interpretations of the documentation - the differences in how we read the rulebook. Religion doesn't exist in a vacuum. Its purpose is to explain the world. And because the documentation is so sparse, the worlds that we have built by filling in the blanks are not the same.>> - ZHOUY1
That's the double-edged sword in having almost all of our lore documents being written IC, the only one I can think of that is framed as being OOC knowledge is "Kiramon: A Scientific Study." (Except Goblyn had it in her office anyway, so I have an excuse to know some things.) When you have sourcebooks things can be defined objectively, where we all know the rules and do ironic detachment. But of course lots of people are going to let their characters know things they should not be able to know.
Concrete example of this with Shadow World would be the Orhan (Liabo) pantheon arrived in an interdimensional cataclysm, with a miniature black hole forming a huge spire of volcanic glass (like our Talon Isle) called the Pillar of the Gods, and this rift is ultimately why magic is possible in this local region of the universe:
Only the GameMaster would be able to have the objective bird's eye view of the source book. Our characters would range between the turnip farmer and the Loremaster. But you know there are going to be people putting these words in their character's mouths: "Actually, it was caused by a black hole 200,000 years ago, then Sa'kain weakened the seal on the rift. The Lords of Essaence did a lot of gate magic after that and let the Unlife in and the Orhanians had to repopulate the world during the interregnum."
Assume as a hypothetical situation that was still what really happened OOC for Elanthia, and all of this stuff about Drakes and Arkati is totally wrong, just some stories passed down from things the ancestors did not understand. The issue I think we have is that our IC knowledge for the Arkati caps out lower than the Loremaster level. It would be very reasonable for an Illistim Loremaster to say, "Given what we understand about magic and so on and so on, here is another model for what's going on without theology." Instead we have some players thinking the religious lore is supposed to be "true", and other players thinking it's incoherent nonsense their scholar character should not take seriously.
- Xorus' player
(And of course, some nearby lay people gasping in horror at this blasphemy, afraid the gods will forsake them and looking for omens.)
"(If you really want to understand Marlu, I suggest reading "The Call of Cthulhu" by H.P. Lovecraft.)" - Varevice (2000)
That's the double-edged sword in having almost all of our lore documents being written IC, the only one I can think of that is framed as being OOC knowledge is "Kiramon: A Scientific Study." (Except Goblyn had it in her office anyway, so I have an excuse to know some things.) When you have sourcebooks things can be defined objectively, where we all know the rules and do ironic detachment. But of course lots of people are going to let their characters know things they should not be able to know.
Concrete example of this with Shadow World would be the Orhan (Liabo) pantheon arrived in an interdimensional cataclysm, with a miniature black hole forming a huge spire of volcanic glass (like our Talon Isle) called the Pillar of the Gods, and this rift is ultimately why magic is possible in this local region of the universe:
| Level 1: The pantheon would know what really happened, but probably wouldn't even describe it in those terms. The higher dimensions they came from are not even accessible now. They would know the comet Sa'kain weakened their seal on the rift which allowed magic to become possible for the Lords of Essaence. |
| Level 2: The Lords of Essaence might have figured out what probably caused the pillar, and that there is a rift specific to this star system, but would not know anything about the cataclysm or that this pantheon even exists. They probably don't know about the higher ordered realities. They failed to appreciate the corruption that would happen from using power drawn from the ones that "paled" to their own. They know Sa'kain causes problems, probably that it is extra-planar, but probably not that it unsealed the rift. |
| Level 3: The Loremasters would agree they are really extra-planar entities and self-aware essence foci out of their own base of knowledge, but have no idea how or when that pillar was formed or that magic is only local to this region of space, or that the various races are the result of genetic engineering. They have access to some Lord of Essaence records from the ancient time period, but a lot of it just makes no sense to them because they have no concept for the words mean. Even Andraax who is a Lord of Essaence would not know the Orhanians repopulated the world after he went into stasis, but probably inferred it when they finally revealed their existence. |
| Level 4: Turnip farmer adventurer should not know the gods come from other dimensions or really any concept of what that means, have never heard of the Lords of Essaence, have no idea his ancestors lived on the moon, and possibly never even have seen an Elf much less a Loremaster much less know Elves are genetically modified humans. |
Only the GameMaster would be able to have the objective bird's eye view of the source book. Our characters would range between the turnip farmer and the Loremaster. But you know there are going to be people putting these words in their character's mouths: "Actually, it was caused by a black hole 200,000 years ago, then Sa'kain weakened the seal on the rift. The Lords of Essaence did a lot of gate magic after that and let the Unlife in and the Orhanians had to repopulate the world during the interregnum."
Assume as a hypothetical situation that was still what really happened OOC for Elanthia, and all of this stuff about Drakes and Arkati is totally wrong, just some stories passed down from things the ancestors did not understand. The issue I think we have is that our IC knowledge for the Arkati caps out lower than the Loremaster level. It would be very reasonable for an Illistim Loremaster to say, "Given what we understand about magic and so on and so on, here is another model for what's going on without theology." Instead we have some players thinking the religious lore is supposed to be "true", and other players thinking it's incoherent nonsense their scholar character should not take seriously.
- Xorus' player
(And of course, some nearby lay people gasping in horror at this blasphemy, afraid the gods will forsake them and looking for omens.)
"(If you really want to understand Marlu, I suggest reading "The Call of Cthulhu" by H.P. Lovecraft.)" - Varevice (2000)
LORDEVARIN
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/15/2017 07:25 PM CST
I read posts like this and feel at a complete loss. It's odd to have spent so much time playing a game that had its lore chewed up and spit out the way Gemstone has. If you haven't already Xorus, it'd be great if you could make a reading list of the non(semi...demi?)canonical works that are still available which shape the current lore.
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
INIQUITY
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/16/2017 02:20 AM CST
<<I read posts like this and feel at a complete loss. It's odd to have spent so much time playing a game that had its lore chewed up and spit out the way Gemstone has. If you haven't already Xorus, it'd be great if you could make a reading list of the non(semi...demi?)canonical works that are still available which shape the current lore.>>
Sorry. I just went with that example because the subject was contrasting the situation we have now --- of purely IC lore and a case where that leaves us knowing very little for sure --- with the older situation where most of the lore came from source books intended for use by GameMasters and not players. It was a mixture of things being defined in purely OOC terms or sometimes expressed in IC points of view with various levels of understanding. The learning curve on it is kind of steep, a lot of cross-referencing.
These are the most important ones for how the early game was shaped, the first two are the most important ones:
(1) The Shadow World Master Atlas (1st/2nd Edition are the pre-1996 ones; 1st has a separate Inhabitants Guide and Atlas Addendum books)
(2) Quellbourne: Land of the Silver Mist (this is the book the Landing / Darkstone Bay region is copied from)
(3) Jaiman: Land of Twilight (less relevant but it is the book for this continent)
(4) Emer: The Great Continent (the continent to the south; less relevant, but important for the big picture of the world setting)
The "Demons of the Burning Night" book is interesting because it is about Orgiana (Eorgina) and Kadaena's daughter, I think it is subtly relevant to the Graveyard and Broken Lands. It is set on the island where Kree's demon sword supposedly originated. The "Journey to the Magic Isle" book is very loosely the basis of what got turned into Teras Isle later. The spell lists came from "Rolemaster Spell Law", the creatures from bestiaries like "Rolemaster Creatures & Monsters", but there's stuff plucked from a bunch of books.
Sometimes things pop up as kind of nostalgia throw backs, but that's mostly just in the sense of being easter eggs. Like if you are reading about Schrek/Ondoval and the Eyes of Utha in the Emer book, it might click "oh they used this for the Vvrael quest." Lorgalis is the most important NPC you never see mentioned. It is purely implied that he was Kestrel Etrevion's master by context; he conquered this region the same year Uthex was killed in the Broken Lands; and he's most likely the Grand Poohbah's "adversary."
- Xorus' player
"(If you really want to understand Marlu, I suggest reading "The Call of Cthulhu" by H.P. Lovecraft.)" - Varevice (2000)
Sorry. I just went with that example because the subject was contrasting the situation we have now --- of purely IC lore and a case where that leaves us knowing very little for sure --- with the older situation where most of the lore came from source books intended for use by GameMasters and not players. It was a mixture of things being defined in purely OOC terms or sometimes expressed in IC points of view with various levels of understanding. The learning curve on it is kind of steep, a lot of cross-referencing.
These are the most important ones for how the early game was shaped, the first two are the most important ones:
(1) The Shadow World Master Atlas (1st/2nd Edition are the pre-1996 ones; 1st has a separate Inhabitants Guide and Atlas Addendum books)
(2) Quellbourne: Land of the Silver Mist (this is the book the Landing / Darkstone Bay region is copied from)
(3) Jaiman: Land of Twilight (less relevant but it is the book for this continent)
(4) Emer: The Great Continent (the continent to the south; less relevant, but important for the big picture of the world setting)
The "Demons of the Burning Night" book is interesting because it is about Orgiana (Eorgina) and Kadaena's daughter, I think it is subtly relevant to the Graveyard and Broken Lands. It is set on the island where Kree's demon sword supposedly originated. The "Journey to the Magic Isle" book is very loosely the basis of what got turned into Teras Isle later. The spell lists came from "Rolemaster Spell Law", the creatures from bestiaries like "Rolemaster Creatures & Monsters", but there's stuff plucked from a bunch of books.
Sometimes things pop up as kind of nostalgia throw backs, but that's mostly just in the sense of being easter eggs. Like if you are reading about Schrek/Ondoval and the Eyes of Utha in the Emer book, it might click "oh they used this for the Vvrael quest." Lorgalis is the most important NPC you never see mentioned. It is purely implied that he was Kestrel Etrevion's master by context; he conquered this region the same year Uthex was killed in the Broken Lands; and he's most likely the Grand Poohbah's "adversary."
- Xorus' player
"(If you really want to understand Marlu, I suggest reading "The Call of Cthulhu" by H.P. Lovecraft.)" - Varevice (2000)
RAVANA729
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/16/2017 08:59 AM CST
One really cheap and easy source is the Wikipedia entry too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_World_(role_playing_game)
Iron Crown sells its current books through RPGNow.com, but they are missing a few, including the old Andaras (Andelas) sourcebook for the cat people, and it is the sourcebook for why there are cat people in DragonRealms, as well as somewhere in Elanthia, probably on another continent.
When I was playing 11 years ago, there was a lot of free Shadow World material available on the net. As well as this, there is very obscure ICE and Post-ICE (AOL era) age lore that happened in game that was lost.
Some of the Simutronics gamemasters have been very liberal regarding allowing players to influence the world and its ideas of the Arkati. Gloumerick, a merchant, allowed a lot of religious theology books to be released into Elanthia. I think there were at least 5 or 6 religious tomes written by PC's. They were very popular and sold well, so you should be able to find them. There is a book on Mularos by Naamit, a book on Sheru by Grhim, two books on Andelas by Kisaku and Sayori, at least one book on Luukos by Nevrek, and more...
What we do in the game is canonical, if not the character backstories we create. The GM's know that and the majority of them have always tried to work with what we are trying to do.
While reading a thread on the ICE forums, trying to figure out the name of that Andaras/Cat People book, which used to be online, I came across something a GM did for Shadoworld called "What the Goat Herder Could Tell you", a compilation of all quotes from the common folk in the sourcebooks.
The idea behind this exercise was to explain what your character MIGHT know about all of the high mucky mucks in the game, from the perspective of a goat herder.
We need the GM's to make something like that except for the religions of the Arkati in Elanthia.
*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_World_(role_playing_game)
Iron Crown sells its current books through RPGNow.com, but they are missing a few, including the old Andaras (Andelas) sourcebook for the cat people, and it is the sourcebook for why there are cat people in DragonRealms, as well as somewhere in Elanthia, probably on another continent.
When I was playing 11 years ago, there was a lot of free Shadow World material available on the net. As well as this, there is very obscure ICE and Post-ICE (AOL era) age lore that happened in game that was lost.
Some of the Simutronics gamemasters have been very liberal regarding allowing players to influence the world and its ideas of the Arkati. Gloumerick, a merchant, allowed a lot of religious theology books to be released into Elanthia. I think there were at least 5 or 6 religious tomes written by PC's. They were very popular and sold well, so you should be able to find them. There is a book on Mularos by Naamit, a book on Sheru by Grhim, two books on Andelas by Kisaku and Sayori, at least one book on Luukos by Nevrek, and more...
What we do in the game is canonical, if not the character backstories we create. The GM's know that and the majority of them have always tried to work with what we are trying to do.
While reading a thread on the ICE forums, trying to figure out the name of that Andaras/Cat People book, which used to be online, I came across something a GM did for Shadoworld called "What the Goat Herder Could Tell you", a compilation of all quotes from the common folk in the sourcebooks.
The idea behind this exercise was to explain what your character MIGHT know about all of the high mucky mucks in the game, from the perspective of a goat herder.
We need the GM's to make something like that except for the religions of the Arkati in Elanthia.
*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*
RAVANA729
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/16/2017 09:11 AM CST
Oh, and one more thing. The idea behind the goatherder, this one GM said, wasn't to inform the players, but to give them information AND misinformation. Our characters have only half the story, and this is as it should be, and as it should be roleplayed.
*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*
*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*
LORDEVARIN
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/16/2017 10:00 AM CST
Looks good. I'll set this information aside and start digging around a bit. Thanks.
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
INSPADES
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/16/2017 03:30 PM CST
My character is agnostic.
He believes Gosaena is Oblivion, and as such - is more powerful than any Drake, Ur-daemon or Arkati. She is the end.
But who created the Drakes and the Ur'daemons? Who created the Arkati to be servants to the Drakes? Did the Drakes once serve a higher power before them? The Dhe'nar believe the firstborn may ascend beyond the Drakes - so there is a belief in various levels of ascension, given the existence of Kuor and Amasalen and the story of "The Stareater" in (non-canon) Dhe'nar lore.
If Gosaena is the END, there is a BEGINNING.
My character does not KNOW or UNDERSTAND what it is, just that it is POSSIBLE.
The problem with claiming that an atheist can't exist in Elanthia would require the universal acceptance that the Arkati are actually 'gods'. ONLY IF that is a universal statement of Arkati = god, then yes... atheism is impossible in Elanthia simply due to the fact that they are actively involved, and support their followers/worshippers in the form of spells/divinity/marks, etc.
Now to state that Arkati are actually gods is more point of view/roleplay/culture/etc. The definition of what a god is, in Elanthia is fuzzy. Is it omniscience? Immortality? The ability to grant powers to their faithful? The Arkati are not omniscient, they are not immortal, and we've seen powers given by NPCs to PCS (or objects, etc), and PCs to PCS (or even NPCs). I see this is the bulk of the argument to defend atheism.
Thus, because Drakes, Ur'Daemons and Arkati are not defined as 'gods' in these scenarios - AND ALSO BECAUSE THESE CHARACTERS HAVE NO BELIEF THAT THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF EVEN HIGHER POWERS - this is why atheism exists in Elanthia.
In Elanthia, adventurers are not your common people. They perform feats of impossibility, kill monsters of legend, cast spells as if they were nothing, raise the dead. Adventurers are god-like to the common peasant. But to us, we have seen and experienced so much that it is difficult to define what a 'god' even is, anymore. Our storylines typically revolve around VERY powerful NPCs... not your run-of-the-mill turnip farmer. Our characters are infused with bias about power in general because of it.
Much of the belief in divinity/magic/witchcraft, was due to lack of education and massive amounts of fear. Because we can play our characters to be educated or not. Fearful or Fearless. Gullible or not - it is in the roleplay of our own characters that defines specifically how our characters see the world around them.
-Talinvor's player
-==Social Media Stuff==-
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/talinvor
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/vorrith
Website:
http://tahlon.obsidiantower.com
He believes Gosaena is Oblivion, and as such - is more powerful than any Drake, Ur-daemon or Arkati. She is the end.
But who created the Drakes and the Ur'daemons? Who created the Arkati to be servants to the Drakes? Did the Drakes once serve a higher power before them? The Dhe'nar believe the firstborn may ascend beyond the Drakes - so there is a belief in various levels of ascension, given the existence of Kuor and Amasalen and the story of "The Stareater" in (non-canon) Dhe'nar lore.
If Gosaena is the END, there is a BEGINNING.
My character does not KNOW or UNDERSTAND what it is, just that it is POSSIBLE.
The problem with claiming that an atheist can't exist in Elanthia would require the universal acceptance that the Arkati are actually 'gods'. ONLY IF that is a universal statement of Arkati = god, then yes... atheism is impossible in Elanthia simply due to the fact that they are actively involved, and support their followers/worshippers in the form of spells/divinity/marks, etc.
Now to state that Arkati are actually gods is more point of view/roleplay/culture/etc. The definition of what a god is, in Elanthia is fuzzy. Is it omniscience? Immortality? The ability to grant powers to their faithful? The Arkati are not omniscient, they are not immortal, and we've seen powers given by NPCs to PCS (or objects, etc), and PCs to PCS (or even NPCs). I see this is the bulk of the argument to defend atheism.
Thus, because Drakes, Ur'Daemons and Arkati are not defined as 'gods' in these scenarios - AND ALSO BECAUSE THESE CHARACTERS HAVE NO BELIEF THAT THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF EVEN HIGHER POWERS - this is why atheism exists in Elanthia.
In Elanthia, adventurers are not your common people. They perform feats of impossibility, kill monsters of legend, cast spells as if they were nothing, raise the dead. Adventurers are god-like to the common peasant. But to us, we have seen and experienced so much that it is difficult to define what a 'god' even is, anymore. Our storylines typically revolve around VERY powerful NPCs... not your run-of-the-mill turnip farmer. Our characters are infused with bias about power in general because of it.
Much of the belief in divinity/magic/witchcraft, was due to lack of education and massive amounts of fear. Because we can play our characters to be educated or not. Fearful or Fearless. Gullible or not - it is in the roleplay of our own characters that defines specifically how our characters see the world around them.
-Talinvor's player
-==Social Media Stuff==-
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/talinvor
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/vorrith
Website:
http://tahlon.obsidiantower.com
GS4-NAOS
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/16/2017 04:54 PM CST
I do not see why one could not be an atheist in Elanthia. Atheism does not depend on whether or not gods exist; it's entirely about belief (the same goes for theism; you can still believe in deities even if there are objectively none in which to believe.)
--
Naos
--
Naos
RAVANA729
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/16/2017 05:26 PM CST
It's not about belief, it's about letting other people know you don't believe. Certainly one could do it but they would anger a lot of religious people - the people with torches and pitchforks. I thought it was obvious that this is what this thread was about.
Also the Arkati show up all the time in Elanthia in very obvious ways, so they are obviously real. Whether or not believing in them makes one a believer in the Gods is a matter of preference, I suppose, but Shadoworld was always advertised as a place with "living Gods" so presumably, just like Nordic, Hindu and Egyptian Gods, just because they can be killed doesn't mean they are not Gods...
*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*
Also the Arkati show up all the time in Elanthia in very obvious ways, so they are obviously real. Whether or not believing in them makes one a believer in the Gods is a matter of preference, I suppose, but Shadoworld was always advertised as a place with "living Gods" so presumably, just like Nordic, Hindu and Egyptian Gods, just because they can be killed doesn't mean they are not Gods...
*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*
DMWCINCY
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/16/2017 06:11 PM CST
There have been a few players that were vocal on their lack of belief. Its part of RP. Not all RP will be positive and really a bit of conflict is good for the game. Will that give rise to zealot rp wanting condemn them? YES. Will it make atheists have potentially hard rp...yes. is this bad, no.
DMWCINCY
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/16/2017 06:47 PM CST
Sadly this is the problem with a lot of players you have to live with. The rp of true conflict is very hard because many take it way too personally. I have tried and with in a week i get ooc messages asking why i hate such and such player. Its almost impossible to make some undsrstand how to separate. I can give many examples of different roleplays where this we need to all get along afterwards. Its really hard sometimes. Sadly you either live with it or not
RAVANA729
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/17/2017 04:25 AM CST
I've seen a little bit of that, but not much, in Eve Online. Eve is so polarized in its story that it's impossible not to hate at least a billion NPC's no matter what Empire one chooses, unless one wants to play an extremely liberal character...then at that point everyone will assert their chosen role and hate on you.
I've never really seen it taken personally, in fact the one group that wanted to have a happy singalong rp experience pretty much got shut down because of a talent drain. People are addicted to conflict and it's way more fun to watch those debates than it is to have some kind of tea party.
I can't really see Aeonelas or Rakshakvana getting into any bloody fights but I'd always be willing to take a death for some good roleplay if that's what it took. I will never take any kind of in game racism or snobbery personally, ever, as long as it's in-genre and in character. I used to play this human who was obsessed with Faendryl and I loved and respected those Faendryl who stuck to their proper role and treated her like some lesser creature, servant or curiosity rather than an equal. It's exactly the weird sort of experience I want to have in an alien worlds.
As well as this, hate wars are the best kinds of wars.
*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*
I've never really seen it taken personally, in fact the one group that wanted to have a happy singalong rp experience pretty much got shut down because of a talent drain. People are addicted to conflict and it's way more fun to watch those debates than it is to have some kind of tea party.
I can't really see Aeonelas or Rakshakvana getting into any bloody fights but I'd always be willing to take a death for some good roleplay if that's what it took. I will never take any kind of in game racism or snobbery personally, ever, as long as it's in-genre and in character. I used to play this human who was obsessed with Faendryl and I loved and respected those Faendryl who stuck to their proper role and treated her like some lesser creature, servant or curiosity rather than an equal. It's exactly the weird sort of experience I want to have in an alien worlds.
As well as this, hate wars are the best kinds of wars.
*~Omni Exeunt in Mysterium~*
HERMESTRISMEGISTUS
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/17/2017 10:23 PM CST
I was just rolling up a pair of new, sexy, religious nut characters and noticed that the beginning quests talk about the Gods. A lot.
"You sense that the gods are pleased, and have bestowed favor upon you."
CLUNK24963
Re: Philosophy, Choice & Faith
12/18/2017 05:55 PM CST
>>I was just rolling up a pair of new, sexy, religious nut characters and noticed that the beginning quests talk about the Gods. A lot.
Most characters get over that fairly quickly.
Sometimes I think you have to be as dumb as Clunk to know that the Arkati and drakes are real.
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
HERMESTRISMEGISTUS
