This is exactly the problem with trying to tackle this topic.

The folks that believe they are right make a broad proclamation "The fact that "let's be less racist in a general sense" is controversial in this community is disgraceful." But this reduction of the issue to a broad and simple statement paints everyone that disagrees as "the enemy" or "for racism" rather that conceding that art has always been controversial medium when it comes to complex topics for hundreds of years.

I think it is disgraceful that members of staff are so willing to alienate players simply because we don't agree with their opinion.

As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

>>Who are the people you're proclaiming are racists? Those that disagree with your opinion in this matter?

Considering he was responding to something I said, I assume he is referring to me.

If I said something like that to the country boys who come into the pawnshop where I work and spew their racist hate and conspiracy theories all over anyone who will stand still, I would be fired on the spot.


Avaia, player of

>>If I said something like that to the country boys who come into the pawnshop where I work and spew their racist hate and conspiracy theories all over anyone who will stand still, I would be fired on the spot.

It sucks that your employer would stand with institutional racism, and I'm sorry to hear that.

~Licel

Two thoughts[+]:
- it is interesting that you continue to work there at all; and
- "country boys" is alright, but I'm likely to be shouted out of the hall if I refer to "homies".

Not putting any heat into this, simply observing.

.

.

[+] full disclosure: put forward by a middle-class middle-age single straight white male with a job.

<Two thoughts[+]:
< - it is interesting that you continue to work there at all; and
< - "country boys" is alright, but I'm likely to be shouted out of the hall if I refer to "homies".

<Not putting any heat into this, simply observing.


I find it interesting that people have the luxury to disparage someone else over their employment. Some folks don't have the same opportunities as others and you have to take what you can get. If you haven't had to struggle I suppose it is easy to just think it is as simple as quitting and working somewhere else though, especially if you don't have a family and children to support.

As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

I am not contending that I have ever faced anything of that nature. I was literally on the outside looking in at the situation as posited.

Nor was I disparaging. The comment was that standing up to attitudes which are precisely as offensive as what is the heart of the discussion here, would get the employee fired. Presumably this means that the employer at the very lest tolerates such speech, conceivably condones it, possibly agrees with it, and potentially says it. All to the extent that the customers in question and their business is more valuable than the continued goodwill and good intent of the employee.

Employers get sued on a regular basis for toxic work environments, and employees leave on a regular basis for not being willing or able to put up with same.

Again: it was an observation, more than anything else.

>>To tell me I am less than a non-existent fictional character?

To say the racism in the game/mechanics/lore is an issue doesn't mean it's the only issue plaguing our community and I feel you when it comes to plat discrimination.

I have no read any message that tells me that the people you're railing against wouldn't also be huge fans of removing plat/prime distance and discrimination. I think that you'd find that messages talking about fixing that divide would be very well received indeed.

I do my best, personally, to reach out at simucon to groups that aren't my core (GS Prime, so I'm reaching out to plat/shattered and DR personally), and definitely think you're right that we could do a lot more to make sure platinum folks aren't discriminated against.

However, to say that we need to talk about racism in the game and do better on that front doesn't at all mean that it's the only thing we have to do, and doesn't mean other inclusive behaviors are to be eschewed entirely. It means they're going to focus in on this issue, and put efforts to it. It doesn't mean they're going to get done with this and pat themselves on the back all day long saying nothing more needs to be done. It doesn't mean they're trying to tell you that you're lesser if you're not one of the groups being targeted in this effort.

If you're really feeling insulted by hearing "racism in the game is extreme and should be addressed", I think it's time for some self examination about what you're really angry about. I doubt it's what is being presented, and something from another source is kicking your defensiveness up.

~Licel

It's pretty hilarious that at least some of the people who are about to rewrite the game's lore don't seem to understand the difference between "race" and "species," while doing things like equating Half-Krolvin to black pepole due to their "ape like" appearance and therefore it's racist and must be changed, all while implying that anyone who disagrees with their virtue signaling is racist.

At the end of the day I don't care what happens with the lore because I barely even remember or care about the current lore, but use a little bit of logic at least. An actual Half-Krolvin possesses more logic than some of the stuff that's being applied here.

https://i.imgur.com/w3hUyFC.gif

But since Half-Krolvin are apparently a race and not a species, does that make me racist for assuming that my real life dogs were unable to understand everything I've said to them over the years, due to their assumed lower intelligence, since dogs are apparently a race and not a species now?

Self-awareness needs to be cool again.




~ Methais

Thought experiment:

You know what is bad? Killing people IRL.

There is killing in GSIV. Staff must rewrite the game code NOW to remove all killing.

If you oppose this move, that means you are almost certainly a murderer in real life and should cancel your accounts, because you are not welcome here.

Account: FUDGEHJ

I get some of you are probably genuine in your concern, but its hard to tell when a lot of you are the same people who've harrassed and belittled me and the group of people I play with in the past.

I am genuine that:

* I support any and all businesses examining their policies, procedures, and practices in order to ensure that individuals from different cultures with different socioeconomic statuses and with different personal characteristics feel they are represented and included. This includes in hiring and the formation of company-customer committees in order to allow representation of different groups.

* I support viewing the lore through different lenses and perspectives in order to add breadth and depth by writing more in ways that detokenize differences.

* I possibly support decoupling statistic and other benefits from race and instead playing it on another moniker (whether that is "personalities" that are chosen in the character manager or something else). I'm not sure on this yet.

* I support switching trading bonuses from race to a formula that takes into account citizenship + INF + CHR + points towards citizenship + trading skill and possibly some other factors. It should be something that can be worked on over time to improve. Instead of one specific race being denigrated in its entirety, it then becomes something that a character can change and influence.

* I support examining citizenship. This does not mean I automatically support dwarves or giantkin being immediate full citizens of Ta'Vaalor. It also does not mean that I ignore that a giantman warrior can nearly singlehandedly wipe out multiple invasion forces within Ta'Vaalor and is still sneered at by NPCs and treated like garbage solely for his race. I want characters to be able to see progress through their efforts, not be completely blocked mechanically.

* I support examining balance in our game. If our NPCs in Ta'Vaalor are being racially divisive than why aren't our NPCs in Solhaven? Why can't we move towards a storyline with a softening of the rhetoric where neither is necessary?

* I support permitting dark and gritty material in our lore after careful examination to ensure that it is least harmful to individuals who have faced various circumstances. It should be examined in order to ensure that it is not the only, or most dominant, paradigm, but rather something that is available for people who are seeking that representation. (I have said before that I have no interest in playing only light fluffy characters. After abuse of a variety of types coupled with my personality, I am not a light, fluffy person. I want to be able to be who I am and explore areas that are darker and grittier because it is more comfortable and familiar to me.)

* I support the creation of a non-binary gender mechanically. I support inclusivity in the lore for differing gender presentations and for different relationship types. This should not be locked behind a paywall. That is disingenuous for the broader implied message behind the stated claim at the origin of this thread.

If at any point I have harassed or belittled you (other than the one incident where I said something that you didn't like and we already worked out), I apologize sincerely. I do not think I've ever even talked to ALLENM20 in any substantial way, but if I have somehow harassed or belittled him, I also apologize. I don't have any problems with Plat and have never called Plat players any sort of names (that I recall). The only time I've ever even had a moment where I thought something negative was when I learned how often Platinum players, including possibly yourself, call Prime characters "primates." I immediately reminded myself that it's a subsection of people that steep themselves in that behavior and they likely have a reason for it.

I have been listening to all the voices here. I don't choose to speak up often because I already said my piece and continuing to do so in some sort of spiraling negative repetetition seemed unproductive and like that would be harassment, in which I have zero interest or inclination to participate.

This may have errors in languge choices, grammar, or spelling and I ask your forgiveness and grace up front. I am still listening to your voices, learning, and choosing to be present to understand all perspectives.

--Jen

>Some excellent questions, and I hope you share your thoughts about the answers to those questions with us. I'm glad you are asking them.

Here's my thought: If someone is equating Half-Krolvin to black people, that person is the actual racist.

~ Methais

It seems to me that Staff could put forth better advocates for what they're trying to do here.

Dismissing the entire opposing point of view as racist and/or encouraging people to drop their sub isn't really productive to the conversation.

And for the other perspective, I'll again highlight that we do not know what these changes are - in the end they can end up being very minor language tweaks which makes this entire overreaction a bit silly.

>I think it's easy for non-Black people to tell other non-Black people what Black people want, but without including more Black voices, these changes are entirely performative.

https://i.imgur.com/OhXsgQP.png

~ Methais

Hi,

I have been keeping quiet on this...for a variety of reasons. Racial anything is a touchy subject but being silent isn't helpful either...so I am going to speak my mind and leave it at that.

Firstly, thank you Simu/Gemstone for taking these steps, I applaud you for it and wish you the best at doing whatever steps you take.

Now, I get it is a fantasy world, independent of the real world but we have inflected (? not sure right word there but read on...) our real world into this fantasy world. We can't HELP but do that because it is what we KNOW. I mean gems from our real world are in the game, so I am sure other things have seeped in...even if most, think it is harmless. If there is a reference to something that a white person might think is benign but a Black, Hispanic, etc. see it differently to the point it is just hurtful or makes them feel unwanted in the game...I am ok with changes. My only comment on those changes, make it make sense in game too in an RP game way. Don't just suddenly change it with no RP around it. I am sure you would do that but just wanted to put that out there. As for what those changes should be? I don't know. I am a white female who hasn't had the same experiences so I wouldn't really know...

You would be very surprised on how much games can influence the real world. I see it all of the time.

Now does this mean they are going to change everything, including mechanics? NO! People are assuming too much...let them do what they need to do and see what changes they are going to make before you go all NO NO NO NO NO on them.

- Becky (Akanah's person behind the keyboard)

I haven’t posted on the official forums about this subject until now, because I wanted time to absorb this announcement and spend some time developing my thoughts on the matter. I’ve engaged in a few conversations here in there on various outlets, but not here yet. My perspective might offer some value because my opinion actually has been changed on the subject since the announcement was made.

A goal I have in writing this is to offer some perspective on why I was initially resistant to the announcement, and in so doing, hopefully to engender some understanding from those who, from the outset, welcomed the announcement as long overdue. I also hope to offer some perspective to those who continue to be resistant to the announcement, and hopefully we all can find some common ground here.

This announcement is overtly contextualized with the broader national conversations and other events going on across the nation. It’s impossible to separate the two, and Wyrom’s post even made clear that recent real-life events have been an impetus for the in-game revisit, so I similarly can’t extract these real world dynamics from my thoughts on this in-game announcement. For my part, I, like probably everyone else reading this, have been essentially stuck at home waiting out the coronavirus, hearing nothing but bad news about the virus and about protests, day after day after day. I have been keeping abreast of the news, but only at a very high level, and aside from that, I’ve rather intentionally been sticking my head in the sand so that I don’t have to keep hearing about it. Maybe I shouldn’t, but if so, I’ll have to revisit that another day.

It's certainly not that I disagree with the message behind the protests. To the contrary, it’s rather self-evident to me that racial inequality is still alive and well in our nation, and it is utterly tragic that some of our nation’s men, women and communities have to deal with any kind of systemic oppression (even more so if from a police force).

But there’s nothing for me to do about it. I’m stuck at home, continuing to work from home, taking care of my family, spending time with them, and looking for means of escape. So I play Gemstone.

It’s ironic that Wyrom’s post mentioned that at least part of the impetus for this announcement was out of sympathy for people who play Gemstone as an escape, and who shouldn’t have to deal with the same racial inequality in-game with which they are confronted in real life. It’s ironic because I’m playing the game precisely so that I don’t have to be confronted with this conversation anymore! [I hope my mildly teasing tone is coming through in that last sentence. ;)]

But we can’t escape this conversation, and perhaps we shouldn’t be able to, either. Through the noise of plethora virtue signaling (of which there is plenty), I hope we have the ability to hear the signal of authentic voices who have been affected, both in this game and in real life. My kneejerk reaction to the announcement was formed through a filter of my own biases, and I’m trying to deal with those. I hope we all do, because we all have our own biases.

Perhaps because of my own biases, I believe I may have misunderstood the initial announcement. All I remember reading from the initial announcement was that a) I can’t escape the real world, even here, and b) things are changing. Again, it’s not that I agree with the dissenters in this thread, it’s that in light of (a) and (b) above, dissent (yes even very vocal dissent) is inevitable. But I also didn’t quite understand some of the problems that Gemstone staff are now trying to rectify.

I play mostly in the Landing. I do that in large part because (even though it’s been a LONG time for me personally) my memories of trying to play east of the Dragonspine was – how do I put this – not fun. I vaguely remember encountering some of the race mechanics and just thinking to myself, “Ehh… no thanks…” and just going back to the Landing. In that vein, I think our game CAN be vastly improved by eliminating some racial mechanics.

Through conversations I’ve been having, other players have reminded me how some of the game’s racial dynamics are reminiscent of an antiquated lexicon that itself was informed much more by racism than today’s. If Tolkien had written his pieces in 2020, I have no doubt that much of his books’ racial dynamics would be different. Similarly, we should take care that our 2020 game does not advance those same prejudices.

My particular playstyle has avoided much of those racial mechanics precisely because, well, I thought they were dumb. But I’m glad to have heard stories from others, like how some folks have observed first-hand the damage that these mechanics have had on new players, for example, trying to make it as a half elf in TaVaalor, only to be treated rudely (even if “in-character”) by some of the “pures”. It’s not that this particular playstyle will be going away, but I suspect it will help if that playstyle is not reinforced by game mechanics.

I do, however, still have reservations. I realize that specific plans haven’t even been announced yet, so at the risk of being premature, please still indulge me. For example, the lore of Half-Krolvin has been cited as something that needs revisiting. I wonder if this is an overreach in the same way that rewriting the real-world’s history of slavery would similarly be inappropriate. But, without any official changes to go on, I won’t risk expanding further on this.

In that same vein, though, I think the GMs could greatly help this conversation by doing a few things. First, please communicate as early and precisely as you can what you intend to “rewrite” or “update.” Hopefully, specificity on your plans will help quell some of the concerns that the sky is falling. And the earlier, the better, because we all know that over time, opinions tend to settle even further.

Additionally, I’d request that you also be open with us about what criteria you are using to choose what will be “rewritten” or “updated” and what won’t. I share some of Leafiara’s well-voiced confusion about “why this issue and not others.” If you clearly explained what criteria you will use (and if you consistently applied that criteria), I think that would go a long way to amplify the trust that the community already has in you, the GMs.

If you made it this far into my post, thanks for reading.

And I see now that you did in fact respond there - I'm going to leave that post up in case anyone else has missed it.

--Jen

While I don't want to stifle the discussion, I think this thread ran its course. There were a lot of well-thought-out exchanges, and we greatly appreciate the feedback. The thread may get moved to a read-only area.

---

Wyrom, PM