>Black magic is bad. White magic is good. Fantasy struggles are framed as being between the light and the dark. This stuff has its origins in racial iconography going centuries back.

While I would never argue that racism in fantasy art and literature is not a real issue, it also goes back goes back further than that. Millenia, really, to the time when humans were actually(and rightfully) afraid of the literal dark because what was out there would kill and eat you. Humans are instinctually afraid of the dark because it used to be a life-threatening phenomenon.

Avaia, player of

I understand that there is social conscience.

To some extent, though, I feel that it is asinine to try to re-write something that is historical fact. People were slaves. Yep. Happened. All over the world. In nearly every culture that mankind ever came up with. But it definitely happened, and no amount of rhetoric--on either side--will change what has already happened.

And as horrible as it was... people fought against it, with greater or lesser success.

Does the fact that the pyramids were built/the sphinx was carved, by slaves, make them any less magnificent? Or does the fact that it was done by nameless millions, thousands of years ago, simply fade that into irrelevance? Is modern angst over racial strife going to cut down on the tourist travels of ANYONE--of any skin color--to go see them? (That is, to "not go see them, because of racial outrage over how they were built.") Pretty doubtful, honestly.

How about the great wall of China? Almost certainly, slaves used in the construction. Tourism.

Pretty much <Pick a building in ruins> in Rome/Italy and Greece. Nearly certainly built with slave labor. Tourism. Hadrian's Wall. Tourism.

Angkor Wat. I honestly don't know enough about the Khmer empire to say one way or the other, but simple fact says that "most empires had slaves". Tourism.

Chichen Itza. Tenochtitlan. Machu Picchu. See above about 'empire'. The red men were doing quite a good job of killing each other off LONG before the "whites"--who were actually pretty swarthy, being from Iberia, what with the African influence until the Reconquista--showed up with horses, guns, and bio-terrorism. Yes, smallpox counts. And again: tourism.

The entire city of Karakorum can arguably be said to have been constructed on the whim of a ruler, see also 'empire' and 'slaves' as above. Not really sure how much tourism happens in Mongolia, though, and there's probably a lot less city to go see than there is in Rome.

.

.

Part of the issue is that elf/dwarf/aelotoi/Erithian are entirely too anthropomorphic. "Human-like." We fall easily into thinking of them as "just like humans."

What if Elanthia were based on insects, though?
Would anyone really have a problem with racism, if the Krolvin were preying mantises?
Or would "the Red menace!" and "those black bastards to the East!" inflame sensitivities... for two different nests of ants, at war for generations?

Race--species, genus, whatever; I admit ignorance of the finer points of taxonomy--prejudice makes SENSE when those giant horrible winged bloodsuckers are trying to EAT you. (i.e. "Bats. Giant Bugs of the Night.")

We could take a page from the V'reen of Arduin, and the Xiticix of R.I.F.T.S. Go all-out chitin and ichor. GemStone V, Bugs 'R' Us. Then when I call someone a grub, or a worm, I'm really going to mean that they're a grub, or a worm.

.

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Separately: I think that both David Weber (in the Bahzell Bahnakson books, starting with "Oath of Swords") and Steven Brust (in the Vlad Taltos books set in the Dragaeran Empire) do a good job of writing about racial prejudice in a fantasy world setting that in fact has non-human races...
...kind of like what we should be dealing with, here.

>We draw concepts from outside of GS--symbolism like snakes being associated with evil and trickery.

I thought snakes represent fertility and are symbols of rebirth....

>That is the line where we differ. Pushing for an end to systemic racism that is killing black people is not a political cause. If it were, that would assume there was a group that is ardently for systemic racism.

Systemic racism present in the lore and mechanics of the MUD, Gemstone IV, kills black people? Either you've just completely lost me or that was worded very strangely.

>So altering Half-Krol lore and changing mechanics in GS will end systematic racism against African-Americans? Is that limited to African-Americans or will it also impact other races? If it won't stop racism for everyone, what other lores and mechanics can we change that will?

Some excellent questions, and I hope you share your thoughts about the answers to those questions with us. I'm glad you are asking them.

~Kveta

> I will match any donation to a racial justice organization that you make up to $1,000. Email me your receipt. ~KVETA

You rock. <3

---

Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."

>So altering Half-Krol lore and changing mechanics in GS will end systematic racism against African-Americans? Is that limited to African-Americans or will it also impact other races? If it won't stop racism for everyone, what other lores and mechanics can we change that will?

Bad faith arguments like this don't add to the conversation.

If you are really confused on this point, it's like asking why you should go to the gym if it won't instantly make you into a bodybuilder, or study for one test if it won't make you a chemist.

Auchand

>Ideally the decision makers DO decide to have a dusrkuin profit sharing promotion. But if they do not I will 100% take you up on that offer Kveta. Maybe selfish of me, but if I can donate to a cause AND get some duskruin in at the same time, that is my preferred path.

I'm not going to wait. I'll throw this open to all players: I will match the first $1,000 donated by anyone. Send me your receipts.

~Kveta

>Fair enough. Sent. Operation Put up or Shut up commenced

Matched, plus one other.

~Kveta

<<If you are really confused on this point, it's like asking why you should go to the gym if it won't instantly make you into a bodybuilder, or study for one test if it won't make you a chemist.

But changing a fictional back story on a race in a 30 year old mud will do all the aforementioned? You've failed to provide me with a referenced event when GS has had political movements affect it's in game environment along with how altering lore/mechanics will stem systematic racism in the world.

I had to sleep on this, but here I am again. Apologies in advance for somewhat derailing the current direction of the thread, if I do.

As is often the case, this ballooned out beyond my expectations and if you need a tl;dr, please hit Ctrl+F on "So what are we to do with this?" (the next one, obviously) and start from there, but I think all of the preceding commentary is necessary to include for the sake of establishing sincerity in a discussion where I might otherwise be doubted because sincerity isn't a given.







I'm here to play a character. One, incidentally, who is incredibly nice to player characters sometimes to a fault, embraces and promotes and even campaigns on racial and cultural diversity, and is a polyamorous, homoromantic asexual half-sylvan engaged to multiple fiancees of varying races (and, for that matter, skin colors).

So almost every tangible change being proposed or even discussed in here would be either a positive or at worst a neutral for my character. At the core, I have no objection to changes in lore, automated NPC messaging, raffles, trading, and more. It's actually pretty hard to imagine any change coming out of this thread that I would have a problem with.

Yet I feel unsettled. It basically boils down to two philosophical differences that I haven't worked out how to reconcile.



I won't spend much time on the first one. Apparently a decent number of people view Elanthia through a real world lens to some degree, which creates a categorically different approach in the way we play. It's forced me to introspection of whether I'm "playing wrong" due to my striving to keep in-game matters and real world matters as separate as possible. Does that make me wrong or, if not wrong per se, then a poor fit for this particular community? At this time I don't know. I'm hopeful I can think through an answer, though, so I'll tentatively write it off as "Resolved - TBA."

Instead, let's get to my real problem, one for which I'm not hopeful I can think through an answer on my own. Because of that, I'll explain my thought process, then turn to you in the hopes that people far more well-acquainted with real world politics have already resolved the questions that haunt me.



>It is our responsibility to examine our culpability in normalizing racism as a "fun" or "harmless" diversion and how that perpetuates systemic racism in the real world. The idea that "it’s just a game" is no longer—and actually, was never—enough.


On my part, I see three options in response to this:

1) Reject the idea that GS has culpability for perpetuating problems in the real world
2) Accept the idea that GS has culpability, but explain away why this only applies to some problems and not others (or, at least, why it only applies to such a degree to merit taking action)
3) Accept the idea that GS has culpability for perpetuating problems in the real world, universally, and thus make the case against everything which is problematic


Option 1, or in other words "anything goes because it's a game," has always been my gut instinct. Not just for GS, but I thought the same when there was controversy over the blood in Doom or Mortal Kombat decades ago. I thought the same when there was controversy over, well, everything in Grand Theft Auto III. I don't even like these games--have never even played GTA, in fact--but in the vein of Voltaire philosophy, historically I'd defend anyone's right to create or play them.


Now, earlier I switched gears to operating under Option 2 when I brought up the erithians, Winedotters, and Vyrem as potentially problematic. Since they're racial or cultural portrayals and we're discussing racial tension in Elanthia, they seemed relevant. Given the premise that one portrayal can be unacceptable, it follows that others can be unacceptable. Therefore, what I'd previously written off under Option 1 as merely an individual problem (of "weirding me out"), I reviewed again in a new light for philosophical consistency's sake.


My dilemma now is that, again for philosophical consistency's sake, I can't see any reason why I should get to Option 2 without then proceeding to Option 3 (or switching gears and reaffirming Option 1). If I'm to agree with the idea that a game can be culpable for normalizing a real world problem like racism, then I don't see why I shouldn't further state that it can be culpable for normalizing other real world problems.

And once given that, the floodgates open. Others have already brought up things that I don't need to harp on further, like mass violence, graphic violence, religious crusades, assassinations, and body parts being used in alters or collected as items, but here are three more for the pile that I didn't notice get a mention (maybe they did and I missed it):


* Eating animals that are generally considered off-limits in the real world, like Goblyn's kitten pies.

* Bullying with rude or mean NPC merchants. Think of Hunter Taoughen calling people "dumb and uglies" if they didn't read her sign before getting services; I found it hilarious and interpreted it as an over-the-top grouchy character, but maybe that was wrong on my end. Someone who's been verbally abused might not find it so funny.

* Borderline, if not outright, abusive BDSM relationships. Mularos' wiki page discusses cults forming that "are most often collections of sadomasochists, often led by a charismatic but twisted leader. These cults seduce young followers with a decadent and reassuring lifestyle, then bend their minds to dependent love and strict obedience." So far there's just enough wiggle room in the wording to still be consensual with some benefit of the doubt, but then the next line follows up: "the usual end result is mass suicide[...]"


So what are we to do with this? Prior to these past two days, my answer was "who cares, it's a game." But if I'm in the process of either abandoning that thought or at very least attempting to have understanding of those who disagree, then I face a two-part dilemma:

A) Why the racism problem needs addressing but others don't (or do they? if it's simply a matter of not being able to address every issue at once given limited resources, then my response would obviously be "fair enough," but so far I haven't seen that voiced)
B) Why altering lore is a correct or even necessary move, but altering policy isn't (since efforts to change player behavior are, seemingly, off the table)

Please consider this a sincere and open invitation to resolve these questions for me. Again, I'm in no way well-versed in politics, so I ask for patience and fully realize it's possible that, while I confront this more or less from scratch, to some of you this is incredibly rote, fundamental, baseline material.

>But changing a fictional back story on a race in a 30 year old mud will do all the aforementioned? You've failed to provide me with a referenced event when GS has had political movements affect it's in game environment along with how altering lore/mechanics will stem systematic racism in the world.

I pointed out no few areas that we've drawn from the real world. The point is that the two--GS and RL--are intrinsically linked. I know for certain that my storylines have drawn on my real-world experiences.

The only thing different with this particular situation is the timetable and scope. The civil rights movement is moving a little quicker than usual, and so are we.

What I haven't seen is a compelling reason not to go through this effort to improve.

Auchand

>So what are we to do with this? Prior to these past two days, my answer was "who cares, it's a game." But if I'm in the process of either abandoning that thought or at very least attempting to have understanding of those who disagree, then I face a two-part dilemma:

>A) Why the racism problem needs addressing but others don't (or do they? if it's simply a matter of not being able to address every issue at once given limited resources, then my response would obviously be "fair enough," but so far I haven't seen that voiced)
>B) Why altering lore is a correct or even necessary move, but altering policy isn't (since efforts to change player behavior are, seemingly, off the table)

First of all, thank you for your sincere and openly curious post. I feel like the re-examination of things that you described is definitely part of what we're trying to do. I think your questions are a very thoughtful result.

If I can take off my GM hat for a moment and offer my personal explanation, here goes:

(A) Why racism and not the others: two answers. Resources and history of oppression.

Resources: Yes, they are limited, not just for companies, games, but also individual people in their everyday lives. So we can't let a failure to fix everything stop us from fixing something.

History of oppression: Let's take your example of Goblyn's kitten pies. Though I have not encountered these, I think the idea of a kitten pie is probably slightly horrifying and funny. I do not think animal abuse is funny. But is there a history of oppression--that is, a systemic and significant problem with people in the real world baking kittens in pies? Not to my knowledge. If there WERE, it would change the calculus of whether it is appropriate to encourage the pie-ing of kittens in-game.

Bullying merchants. They are generally intended to be over-the-top and entertaining. Would someone who is verbally abused not find it funny? Could be. But that person can choose not to go to that merchant, if they want. So, my opinion is that a couple grouchy merchants here and there are fine. But what if most or every merchant was verbally abusive and bullying? Well, to be honest, then this WOULD be a problem and we should fix it.

Racism, particularly of the anti-blackness variety, has a long history of oppression, and the effects are huge and detrimental to our society today. I could quote you a ton of statistics here, but you can also google them, but it affects your ability to stay alive, your job, your income, your health, your education, your romantic partners, etc. etc. etc. There are protests in the street, because the situation is so bad right now. That's why racism is different than kitten-eating, and that's why we're focusing on it right now.

Frankly, the cults and mass suicide bits...I can't tell you where to land on that one.

(B) Why altering lore is a correct or even necessary move, but altering policy isn't (since efforts to change player behavior are, seemingly, off the table)

I, personally, would love to alter player behavior, but through persuasion and in-game development, not through adjusting policy. Our OOC anti-harassment policy still exists. But players have characters, as I do, that with fully fleshed-out personalities and histories developed over 20+ years. Can you imagine the complaints if we tried to dictate how each character should roleplay, after setting them up to be how they are for those 20+ years?

I hope my answers to your questions are helpful as you refine what you think about this, and you can also e-mail me for further thoughts.

~Kveta

<There's a tremendous movement going on in this country that has served as a stark reminder of systemic racism in the US. We are taking this opportunity to revisit some of the lore and mechanics that only exist because of systemic racism.>

And yet I was attacked and slandered for suggesting this....


<Pushing for an end to systemic racism that is killing black people is not a political cause. If it were, that would assume there was a group that is ardently for systemic racism.>


11th Hour Remnant Messenger, American Renaissance, American Freedom Party, American Nazi Party, Aryan Brotherhood, Aryan Republican Army, Aryan Nations, Asatru Folk Assembly, Atomwaffen Division,Council of Conservative Citizens, Creativity Alliance, EURO, Hammerskins, Identity Evropa, Ku Klux Klan, National Alliance, National Association for the Advancement of White People, National Policy Institute, National Socialist Movement, National Vanguard, Nationalist Movement, Occidental Quarterly, Patriot Front, Phineas Priesthood, Pioneer Fund, Volksfront, White America, Inc....


Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

>That is the line where we differ. Pushing for an end to systemic racism that is killing black people is not a political cause. If it were, that would assume there was a group that is ardently for systemic racism.

You are not fixing racism, systemic or otherwise.

Is this really how you are framing this discussion in your mind? Anyone in favor of these changes want to end racism and those against the changes are either pro-racism or just don't care about racism? Because if so you have completely lost the plot.

>> What I haven't seen is a compelling reason not to go through this effort to improve.

If the goal of improving the game is to make a better game then I, for one, am fully supportive of your efforts to improve the game.

If the goal of improving the game to correct injustice in the real world (perceived or otherwise), then I would argue that this seems like an unlikely recipe for making a more engaging and entertaining game.

From the initial post by Wyrom and many of the posts by NIRs it sounds like we have embarked down the second path with this improvement effort.

-- Robert

>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.

<<You are not fixing racism, systemic or otherwise.

<<Is this really how you are framing this discussion in your mind? Anyone in favor of these changes want to end racism and those against the changes are either pro-racism or just don't care about racism? Because if so you have completely lost the plot

Common argument in today's society. If you're not 100% for a radical ideal, you're against it.

>You are not fixing racism, systemic or otherwise.

Did anyone claim we were? The GameMaster staff is making our best effort at addressing it in an environment that we control.

Auchand

>>Plenty of people have added their piece early on and are choosing not to argue about it.

Yes, engaging in ludicrous bad faith arguments doesn't accomplish much, and some of these arguments -- quite frankly -- don't deserve rebuttal. Some are some valid points worth discussion.


>>Dear Staff,
>>Thanks for trying. I think it's better than not trying.

That about sums it up for me.

---

-- Wheels & Skulls Department

You see Blood Mayor Cruxophim the Blood Reaver.
“Blood for the Blood Mayor! Skulls for the Skull Office!”

[ Storyline: https://goo.gl/HNbwpC ]
[ Order of the Shadow: https://goo.gl/88Ojff ]

>You would be blatantly wrong. I can't speak for other GameMasters, but I have drawn inspiration from two out of three of those events and I know others have as well.

Again not drawing inspiration from the real world would be nearly impossible.

Did the GMs go through the lore or history or mechanics and change any of them in any significant manner because of those political events? I don't mean just loosely based a storyline or NPC or something on these events.