Last I heard there won't be any magic skillset guild requirements for Traders. It's an optional system. I wouldn't expect grandfathering.

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> Last I heard there won't be any magic skillset guild requirements for Traders. It's an optional system. I wouldn't expect grandfathering.

Right. Grandfathering won't happen by the sound of it. That's why I'm looking into other options. I think trader magic is a huge step up towards bringing the guild into more than mules, but I worry about the backtraining this will mean for TM and Debilitation. Some upper level traders are looking at months to years of work to catch a tertiary skill up with their combats. Even low-level traders will take a long time before power perception is at a usable level. If that's by design, then fine. It is what it is, but I'm hoping magic opening to traders will be more than a passing fad. I'm hoping it will be class defining.

> That would be a massive/unbalanced long-term advantage.

I agree it's a huge benefit, but I wouldn't call it massive long-term advatage. Still though, let's talk options. If something this sweeping isn't on the docket because non-traders would be jealous of traders (lol), then what about something like this...

Make it a lore-perk:
- Lore-prime bonus to appraise focus that lets a skill drain at least at a secondary level, while it's active.
- Lore-prime/secondary bonus in general. A "research <skillset>" that they can pull off at a regular interval that gives bonus skill points into that skillset's pool. Maybe once a day, once a week, or even once a month.
- Give lore primes "ressearch bonuses" in the same way magic primes have sorcery spells. "> Research shift armor to magic" Wait 15 minutes. While the bonus is active (do once, keep until you ">research shift stop" or die, can do once a week, can cancel any time), all drain pulses for the first skillset would instead provide a drain pulse for the second skillset.


Make backtraining easier across the board:
- All skills drain like primaries if they're > 500 ranks away from the average of your top 3 skills.
- All skills drain like secondaries if they're between 300 and 500 off from the average of your top three primary skill ranks.
- Extend the research bonus to everyone. Lore primes can do it once a day. Secondaries once every 3 days. Tertiaries once every 7 days.


Build this or something to it as a trader skill:
- Trader bonus to appraise focus in general. Make it always give the max benefit so long as a skill is less than 2/3 of your appraisal.
- A simpler sort grandfathering to let traders enjoy the game without having to start over on their class. Maybe TM = Debilitation = Highest weapon skill. Primary Magic = Highest mastery skill. Power Perception = Appraisal / 2. Sorcery, Warding, Utility, Augmentation = fine. You can level those wherever you are without gating your progression. I'm sure there are lots of traders who have teaching mules working on this now. Maybe tie it off charisma and trading, throw in a random factor, and make you negotiate with an entity to be grandfathered.

> It's an incredibly big advantage, from learning rates to the general magic perks associated with something being secondary vs tertiary.

I'll admit I wasn't thinking about the perks, but I'm not sure they'd apply here. Spell slot count doesn't look like it's going to be an issue. Adding up the current planned spells, you'll likely be able to get all of the feats you want by 150 with some slots left over.

The power perception bonus was taken out IIRC.

> You already referenced it further below in your post, but isn't this pretty much Appraise Focus? https://elanthipedia.play.net/Appraisal_skill#Appraise_Focus

The benefit of the current appraise focus isn't nearly as a strong as I'm imagining here.

> So magic research, with more limitations, but for everything? https://elanthipedia.play.net/Magical_research

That's raw exp. I'm thinking about bits for your bonus pool: https://elanthipedia.play.net/Skills_3.0 Think about what happened when your skills combined in 3.0. The excess went into a bonus pool that gave you a faster drain. Same thing here, more bits for the primes, but something more generally available.

> This is a better version of grandfathering than what everyone else got.

It's really not. The trader would be limited to their tertiary skillset, and it would only affect 5 of the 9 magic skills. The numbers could be tweaked, but as it is, even barbarians had better grandfathering than this.

> You're specifically suggesting TM gets grandfathered to a high level in particular, and Paladins/Rangers never got any TM grandfathering when magic moved to a TM model.

Tweak the numbers then. Maybe top weapon rather than a mastery, but something they can use at level to hunt with out the gate.

> Traders should get the same grandfathering everyone else got when 3.0 rolled around: equal to what their circle requirements are

I think you need to review the conversion, because there's a lot missing with this statement: https://elanthipedia.play.net/Post:New_Circle_Requirements_-_A_Precursor_-_03/07/2012_-_19:00

1. Everyone had massively high primary magic if they were not an NMU.
2. That broke up into the four skills I mentioned above which I even cut out of the equation.
3. Likewise, almost everyone had higher Power Perception (attunement) than their circle required due to the general rank requirement, and it could be trained anywhere over years of play.
4. Likely the same for arcana (magical devices) up to a few hundred ranks (arguably something to leave out thanks to sonawret cyrstals).
5. Everyone started fresh on sorcery, but "focus rune" 10,000 times doesn't feel interesting enough to justify it as a barrier for long-term players. TM and Debilitation would be gated by skills that didn't exist at the time, which share the tertiary skillset for traders.
6. NMUs even had spells weighted in their favor to off-set being magic tert. Even barbarians are going to have better grandfathering (which exceeded some of their reqs) and potentially better spellcasting due to how their abilities work: https://elanthipedia.play.net/Post:Meeting_With_Kodius_(warning,_long!)_-_1/29/2011_-_19:36:33

> Traders should get the same grandfathering everyone else got when 3.0 rolled around: equal to what their circle requirements are.

One more thing on this. I'm pretty sure I read a post saying Traders wouldn't have a magic requirement. That means you're saying they shouldn't get any grandfathering in at all, regardless of how long the character has been played. You're literally asking HLC or even MLC traders to stop what they're doing and backtrain for months if they want to use spells in combat.

> People without magic skills (Thieves/Barbarians), used a formula based on circle requirements,

Again. That's not how it worked. Barbarians were given 1 rank per circle, or their level requirements, whichever was greater. IIRC barbarian abilities are also easier to use or have higher potency because of the lower ranks across the boards. I want to say theives also have a city bonus applied to using their khri, along with hiding and in stealth to cast spells they normally wouldn't have the ranks to pull off.

> Your metrics just aren't a good ones.

Okay. So the problem isn't that traders shouldn't be grandfathered, but instead a different set of numbers applied. Great. What would you suggest?

> I recall it being something GMs would consider once Trader magic rolled out.

I thought so to, but it seems GMs and opinions change.

In January 2016, GM-RAESH said (in response to being asked why traders couldn't receive AP spells), "Because there's no lore reasons for it and we're going to grandfather ranks anyhow." Source: http://tinyheroes.com/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Traders/Bugs%20--%20Traders/thread/1753460

In August 2017, "Armifer says, 'My current plan is that Traders will have neither magic reqs nor any kind of retroactively added ranks.'" Source: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Discussions%20with%20DragonRealms%20Staff%20and%20Players/General%20Discussions/view/13582

> I honestly don't see why we'd be entitled to any ranks if they're not necessary for circling.

I acknolwedge that argument, but if we're going there, I think traders deserve increased learning rates for the skillset. Otherwise, I worry that all of this work never be of consequence since it will always lag behind even the other tertiary skills, unles you intentionally gimp yourself or buy a teaching mule.

> I don't think we need instant gratification to make this really fun and exciting.

Again, I agree. I just think there's a difference instant satisfaction and months (or more) of back-training.

> Backtraining is a little bleh but it's not the end of the world

Eh, I disagree. At it's core, this is a game. If something is dreaded and requires months of effor then it's not right for a game.

> Especially if you have advanced stats and defenses, you'll be able to lock in four casts

Not if you can't hit the target because you're a few hundred ranks off.

It sounds like regardless of what we say, grandfathering likely is not going to happen, so this entire thread might just be moot.

Buuuut...

If it's still being considered, I'd lobby for a level of grandfathering under these points:

*It was done with the other NMU guilds (barbarians and thieves)--so precedent set.

*It would be at least one respectful bone to throw to the trader guild for putting off their link to 3.magicsystem for so very long.

Iffff...

We don't get magic grandfathered, at least we finally get magic. I'll take anything at this point.

An aside:

I get that it's not required for circling, so that's why it is being considered not necessary to grandfather, but if we are being honest, that just sounds weak at this point. I find it a little strange that the other "NMU guilds," which happen to also be magic tertiary, are required to train it to advance in level, but traders are exempt. Kind of unorthodox logic, but I've learned to expect that from the realms of the dragon.

"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade

> Squanto's post

Pretty much this. The original thread was written assuming magic wouldn't be grandfathering like it did for every other 3.0 guild, presumably because it would significanly delay implementation or the GMs thought having a new carrot would be good for the game. This isn't a complaint thread.

This is a suggestion thread. I'm still asking for that "something" which should be put into place to at least speed up that process. Whether that something is trader only, a limited "QOL" grandfathering, or a bonus to all lore primes/secondaries (which is nice since so many guilds have to get that distinction even if they have no interest in crafting).

Obviously, with all suggestion threads, it's up to the interest and desire of the GMs, but bonus exp pools for all lore-based guilds, or static bonus to trader drain rates seems like an easy win across the board. It could be a differentiating factor for both skill sets, player preferences, and/or traders as a whole. At this stage of development,

> Without dreaded months of labor there would be no Dragonrealms.

Okay, sure. It's an MMO. Not everyone likes or dislikes the same parts, and that's fine. In fact, it's by design. With my proposal, especially the bonus pool part, it's helpful for everyone even if you like backtraining.

If traders are allowed to have 3 secondary skill sets then it's a nice perk for them, easing backtraining and training in general since they're starting from scratch; however, I'm going to step back from that one. Tev has helped me understand the can of worms that this will open for all non-traders. Even if it's the right move, that'll quickly become a dead horse that the GMs will never stop hearing about.

> It's going to move as fast as it possibly can.

I think your numbers are off. It's still going to take several, several hours of casting in louts, moving only a small number of skills, to get your TM past the free "like prmiary" ranks. From there, it'll slow down and eventually start crawling to a few ranks a day around 200, and the gap will only continue to grow. The suggestions I gave were to speed up the process assuming that grandfathering the other guilds received or the mechanical beneifts of NMUs in general were off the table. I get the pushback, but I think it should still be considered.

> Not liking backtraining is not a mechanical justification.

To be fair, enjoying backtraining isn't a justification either. Call it a lore perk, because those lore-primes and lore secondaries deserve a little love too, especially if they don't want crafting to be what defines their character. It helps those who want to replay the game without rerolling. It helps those who want to play the game as they want to play it. In fact, it helps more guilds than not, which is great for this stage of development.

>>I get that it's not required for circling, so that's why it is being considered not necessary to grandfather, but if we are being honest, that just sounds weak at this point. I find it a little strange that the other "NMU guilds," which happen to also be magic tertiary, are required to train it to advance in level, but traders are exempt.

Agreed. I'm a bit skeptical that Traders shouldn't have magic reqs because long-term Traders would be that turned off from training it.

(I get there could be lore reasons why they wouldn't require it, but I feel that would be the IC explaining the OOC which could be unfair on my end.)

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