I've been thinking about the dynamics of creation systems and its' effect on the Elanthian economy.

The main reason that forgers, tanners, and the like are able to make a large profit margin is that the items they create (dependant on their guild-related skills) have no competition from anyone else. GM Merchants who can even remotely come close to what is being made now is few and far in-between. There is virtually little to no competition for players.

Traders, on the other hand, having certain creation systems they are good at, embroidery, is a low desire service. And more hurtful (in my opinion), is that GM Merchants can surpass the ability that ANY Trader can provide. Practically every GM merchant is competition to a Trader.

A suggestion would be to have a set up where only a Trader has access to certain 'components', and the Trader would assemble the pieces themselves - then sell it. This type of creation system would eliminate the GM competition, and would be more in line with forging/tanning.

Ex:
A. A Trader store/area where a Trader would have to 'prove' to the sales clerks they are worthy of buying item patterns and components, and sets.
B. Trader buys a 'necklace pattern' and some necklace components (silver/gold/gems).
C. Studying the pattern, the Trader assembles the pieces together - possibly with certain tools also.

Instead of a necklace pattern - Merchants would stock this Trader store/area with their own designs so that Traders could assemble it instead (think origami).

"Trading/Reputation would dictate what a Trader can buy, Mechanical Lore will dictate if the Trader can make it."

Ex:
Merchant ABC says, "I need Traders to make these two items so I can sell them in my tent, you will be paid for each piece made!"

Pattern: a sparkling gold necklace in the shape of leaping flames.
Required:
gold: 2 bars.
rubies: 3.
steps: 10 steps.
difficulty: 4.
reputation: 7. (only a trader with reputation of 7+ can buy this pattern)
cost: 300 kronars. (Trader buys needed supplies)
payment: 5000 kronars. (if a merchant wants to purchase it)
(hidden from Traders' knowledge, the item could have the TAP, NUDGE, and KISS verbs)


Pattern: a sparkling silver necklace in the shape of a crescent moon.
silver: 2 bars.
sapphires: 3.
steps: 10 steps.
difficulty: 3.
reputation: 5. (only a trader with reputation of 5+ can buy this pattern)
cost: 250 kronars.
payment: 3000 kronars.


This could open contracts with merchants and all Traders - so instead of building the tents for merchants, we could actually make the item itself.

I know this suggestion would force a GM Merchant to (1) create the item first, and (2) define how a Trader (or anyone else) could make it. Is this similar to forging/tanning?

-Veii

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Veii's Veranda : http://drveii.mysitespace.com
- The Index of Trader Services -

I agree especially on the creation systems.

Embroidery and will not be any viable source of income as long as GM merchants can produce and sell as much stuff as they want and not have to be limited to choose their wares from a 10 item list, or from a combination of about 20 patters, 40 colors, and 30 items. I can not imagine any trader creation system that can compete with the GMs on their level.

Also Traders have a bonus to tanning containers and clothing types of items. How do these in any way surpass the Crossing General Store's Backpack that cost 168 copper? Till we can create better than the GMs or NPC merchants it will never be desired by the players.

Players still cant change or embellish player made weapons and armors. When gem crafting comes out how can we compete with a GM in creating a jewelry item that players desire?

Empaths will soon be able to make healing potions that surpass what any merchant carries. Not sure what state the spell is in that will increase the effectiveness of a herb, and they have shift.

Gweths were taken out of the treasure system cause the Moonies whined,

Forgers(paladins and barbs) where assured that GM weapons and armor would never surpass forged.

Tanned armors are much better than you will ever see again in GM run shops or merchants.

Thieves have restricted lockpick carving to just their guild.

So where does that leave Clerics?

Seems to me as if Traders should be on the top or near the top of this list. but we have been buried because GMs like creating items, and merchants and providing that service to all guilds equally at the expense of one.

I know and have heard that there are plans to change the way things work and with DR2 and the breakout of mech lore that all this will be better. I am still wondering how, we can ever catch up with the barbs or even the rangers that can afford not one but two sailing vessels? Especially when one considers that it will be probably 2 years before code is implemented to have anything in place to change this

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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

I just find it sad that a 99th circle Trader makes so much less than a 99th circle Pallie/Barbarian/Ranger. I mean, I can agree that EVERY Trader shouldn't be making as much as these high-level characters, but definitely one of the same circle should be blowing them out of the water.

~ Ahkshan

>I wouldn't ask of anyone to work as hard as I had to work with the Smithing system. Understanding and continously updating what can be done and doing it over and over.. Working more hours then most GameMasters. It's just not right.

I'm pretty sure every Trader here would give anything to even have the OPTION of working as hard as you do with the smithing system in order to make those kinds of rewards. But apparently it makes more sense for the really great, complex, profitable creation systems to be dominated by lore tertiary guilds, go figure.

Apu

<<Gossfords' Post>>

Excellent points also.

I don't understand why player forgers, tanners, bowyers are given 'exclusive' rights of making the best armors, weapons, arrows, bows, when it is made clear that GMs can surpass anything that a player can do.

A GMNPC can be a 99th circle gnome barbarian, but he/she WON'T sell weapons that are as good as (or better) than player made? I don't get this.. are player forgers/tanners so reliant on creation systems to make money? Hunting alone doesn't yield enough boxes, gems, pelts?

Being able to forge your own armor that is, dare I say, close to the best is an achievement - You don't have to wait for a festival. In my opinion, this is how item creation should be set up all around. Merchants are supposed to be superior, let them be superior.

Can you imagine what would happen to the forging market if a GM Barbarian Forger worked with a Trader to sell special metal forged-weapons that no other player can make? My prediction is that more coins would syphon out to where they belong - Traders and 'The black void (GMs)'.

-Veii

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Veii's Veranda : http://drveii.mysitespace.com
- The Index of Trader Services -

<<I could easily put in an insane number of hours on any project given to me... I just need to be given the opportunity.>>

Roll up a Barbarian.

<<Congrats on your new achievement. I was at your ceremony and know you worked hard for it. My problem is that Apu (sorry to use you as an example) has been at circle 99 for quite a while now. What opportunity does he have to create anything nearly as useful as weapons or armor? Or even to provide a service useful enough to the public that would reap the profits you do from forging? Even if it took a new system he would have to be the first to work on, learn, and perfect, I'm sure he would jump on that in a second. I know I would...>>

Yeah, we all know that Trading is not a creation system, because... You get coins from the system for moving from one destination to another with a caravan. Give me a break! You do not have to deal with individuals, just the NPC clerks. If you put in the time commitment and were willing to trade, you would make a lot more coins then you would think.

You have the opportunity to make coins. Use it!

- Admiral Rufflehouse

Smegul says, "Argh, Sky Giants hella suck."

Ruffles says, "Hella this, hella that, hella, hella, hella."

>Because it would make absolutely no sense for Weapon Smithing to be related to a weapon skill set, of course.

I agree. To be completely honest, it doesn't make any sense for weaponsmithing to be dependent more in your skill with the weapon than your mechanical lore (or in the future, metalworking) skill. Just because you know everything about killing stuff with a sword doesn't mean you know a thing about how to make it, and realistically, you could easily be the top weaponsmith in the land without knowing how to fight at all.

Supposedly this will all get taken care of when the mech lore skill gets broken up, but we'll have to wait and see.

Apu

<< Roll up a Barbarian. >>
<< If you put in the time commitment and were willing to trade, you would make a lot more coins then you would think. >>

Okay, i guess my post was taken the wrong way. In no way did I mean that guilds should be stripped of their creation abilities. I think I said in my last post that I agree with the concept of PCs that have worked very hard to get to where they are SHOULD have such a system.

I just also think that Traders who have also worked very hard should have such a system also. My intent is not to personally attack anyone here, just to make a suggestion and perhaps explain why I think Traders might be unhappy with the way the economy is set up.

Sorry if you took my words otherwise, Rufhelous.

~ Ahk

I would like to re-ask a question I posed yesterday. Can a trader using the tanning system make a better backpack than any other currently available backpack in the lands?

If so then thank you. If not then why not?

Tanning armor, and tanning non combat items are the same core system?

Would it be so terrible for a player to make a packpack that could hold 5 more boxes?

---

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

<<What really sucks more is the fact that traders no longer are the rich of elanthia they work for the rich of elanthia. They slave at tables and auctions in order to make their cut from a forger or armor maker. >>

Although I can't speak for other Traders who work the market tables, I can speak about the situation with Naria and Rufhelous. She and him are business partners. I would not consider her a slave to him and him a slave to her. We both suggest ideas of what we could do to make X goal/situation better.

The bottem line is, if you do not want to work on the market tables with a business client, then you don't have to. Your guild will not force you to work the bazaar tables.

- Admiral Rufflehouse

Smegul says, "Argh, Sky Giants hella suck."

Ruffles says, "Hella this, hella that, hella, hella, hella."

<<Ruffles dear, my comment wasn't mean in an insulting manner - yes, I know that the GMs have decided this.. I was merely expressing myself in that I didn't understand the reason for it. If their reason was, "Because we said so." - it still wouldn't a valid explaination for me.>>

You weren't being insulting. That's the answer used in many situations - "Because we said so." My opinion is that the GMs are moving toward an Elanthia where things will be more heavily weighted toward created things rather then store-bought.

<<My point: Perhaps a GMNPC can be a craftsperson who can make better than anything better than any player now, even armor? Wouldn't that be possible? (This really refers to the first part of the post.) I suppose it goes back to the GMs deciding not to do so.>>

Well, GMs can do ANYTHING. It's a matter of what the overall goal is, and the overall goal IS that player created items are going to be a more critical factor in Elanthia in the future compared to store-bought.

<<Are you talking about strictly about forgers and weapons? I don't see any reason why GM Merchants couldn't sell strictly to a certain group of players - there are, afterall, guild-restricted merchant tents and guild related shops.>>

No, a GM is not allowed to help a player out by providing them weapons/armor/coins/items of any kind. They can provide the system for the creation of a player to make that item, but they are not allowed to help any player out with the method you listed (Making a GMPC Barbarian/Paladin to forge weapons/armor and give that to a player Trader to sell).

- Admiral Rufflehouse

Smegul says, "Argh, Sky Giants hella suck."

Ruffles says, "Hella this, hella that, hella, hella, hella."

The fact that you guys are using the idea that I bought two ships and no one else did/could as an excuse to formulate the thread's purpose, it just illustrates to me that your whining and dining.

What the GMs really ought to do is crack down on people who sell/buy/trade characters and sell/buy platinum coins. That will help fix what their policy already states is against the rules to do and it will help fix the economy to what is RIGHT.

You earn it, you keep it. You choose what you do with your coins/character IN THE GAME.

Fix the core of the issue with the economy (the situation mentioned in this post), then worry about adding icing to the cake (creation systems).

- Admiral Rufflehouse

Smegul says, "Argh, Sky Giants hella suck."

Ruffles says, "Hella this, hella that, hella, hella, hella."

<<No, a GM is not allowed to help a player out by providing them weapons/armor/coins/items of any kind. They can provide the system for the creation of a player to make that item, but they are not allowed to help any player out with the method you listed (Making a GMPC Barbarian/Paladin to forge weapons/armor and give that to a player Trader to sell).>>

Then we need to remove all stores from the game that allow GMNPCs/GMs to give out anything for the exchange of coin?

We are not asking to be given anything but a reasonable chance to have a product that is usefull. We are not after your cash cow. We just want to be able to earn money at the same rate with the the skills traders are supposed to learn. And market tables dont really count it takes very little skill to be able to rent one of them.

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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

nothing against you ruf, but personally i think characters should only be able to buy 1 boat.

also, one of the buyers the second time was also one of the big plat sellers on the lists. <not a trader btw>. But that's neither here nor there.Simu doesn't really have the wherewithal to enforce it on lists they don't control.

And traders should rightly be at the top of the economic heap. there are 2 guilds that are very focused on the acquisition of wealth. they just go about it differently. Both start with "T".


:-)


~stabbity,whiff,thud~

<< The fact that you guys are using the idea that I bought two ships and no one else did/could as an excuse to formulate the thread's purpose, it just illustrates to me that your whining and dining. >>

I agree with Gossford, you kinda missed the boat (haha... gulp not funny) on this thread. The way the economy is has been the topic of many discussions way before the boats being auctioned off was even mentioned to the public. One thing has nothing to do with the other. The fact that you could afford two ships didn't spark the discussion, but now that you bring it up, it's a good indication that we have a justified concern.

By the way, I agree with you on the buying/selling of characters/plats as i've mentioned before on other threads. From what I hear, it's a dead topic. Nothing can or will ever be done.

~ Ahk

>I find this statement to be false.

Oh, of course that is false in DR - I was talking about real life.

Hopefully forging in DR will eventually be fixed to be even vaguely realistic, with the mech lore split up and all the great changes to lore that the GMs are always claiming are on their way.

Apu

G'day,

>If GMs were moving toward an Elanthia where player created items dominate - that would cause greater inflation, which I heard is what they're trying to do the opposite. (How? More coins enter the system than is drained from it. Prices increase due to the fact that more and more people can afford the higher prices.)

Well, that is only true if you make the assumption that the treasure system will stay the way it currently is.

Regards,

Godrich de'Finchal

"And we will weep
To be so alone
We are lost!
We can never go home"

http://webpages.charter.net/plblack/trader.html

Actually, from what i've researched from watching other games with more player creation systems, player created items deflate the system rather than inflate.

First and foremost, you have a LOT more competition. It's not you vs. the GM's who must scramble for months sometimes building vendors to satiate. You are up against every other person who choses to use that crafting system in the game...and everyone less talented than you are with it are going to slash their prices like crazy so they can make some sort of money when everyone not doing the skill is looking for the ultimatethingythatyoucanmakewiththatskill item.

Second, crafting costs money. You have to buy or scrounge for materials, things wear out, things break...and not everyone is going to stick with a skill. In fact, the majority of players working any crafting skill usually get bored and look to do something else before they get to the top rung....so all that material usage they paid gets sucked into the system, either by way of paying for materials or the costs and fees for harvesting them.


I don't think the gm merchant will ever go away in this game, or the alterer, even though I can see players having more alteration-style skills in the future. But from an economy standpoint, I don't think heading towards crafting is necessarily a bad thing.


Equity

<<That is the gripe. Why work Trading skill at all? We have a unique skill that offers so little potential. Naria could of done the same thing in any other guild.>>

She could have, yes! We all reach the same destination via wealth and adventure from various different paths. That is a GOOD THING.

- Admiral Rufflehouse

Friends don't let friends drink and use the gweth.

>But Barbarians are more in tune with the presence of weapons compared to anyone else.

In tune with the presence of weapons...oh boy. So weapons have a living quality to them now? I think you are reaching on this. All you have to do is look at real life to know that killing things has nothing to do with making things that kill.

I do understand you circling the wagons to keep this ability (weapons ranks equal skilled craftsman), but it obviously doesn't make sense in practical terms. There were very good points indicating just that in the earlier posts. I can't very well argue with 'weapon presence' as that is an intangible belief and arguing beliefs leads nowhere.

I only hope that future careers will solve this disparity. For now, it is what it is.

Gidske