>So...burglary and second-story work. Oh my gosh I'm about to type a lot of words :(
Basically all of Thayet's posts that goes with this, is a HUGE part of my 'revised wishlist' not going to copy it, check it out its only a few posts back, but it's long but awesome.

I'd love if it also allowed for NPC thuggings, hits, assassinations, (and I'd also like to add kidnapping). Basically your B&Eing but instead of going in for some specific item, or items, your going in for that type of assignment.

There is a current Task system that also could give these styles of missions, besides the possibility of using a Guild Leader or various Guild Leaders.

Because I think it would be good that not everything is done in house (as far as game-lore), that sometimes the 'mission' or 'task' might seem more like it's a B&E to get some item back because the Thief Guild needs to make it clear that they do these things, not out of house peoples. So perhaps there could be kidnapping people back, and Thieving items back to the proper peoples. Why would the Thief Guild not do protection rackets and what not?



---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

>Component pouches.
The current ones limit to 30, and cannot be tied. It would be very nice to upgrade them to gem-pouch style sizes, and allow them to be tied.

This is something I see frequently enough as a wishlist item, and it should have been on my original WishList but it was getting kinda long so.

>Revised Haven guild.
It would be really nice if the guild just stuck to one spot. It would be doubly nice if knowledge of the passages ability meant you didn't have to manage a manual passcode. Same goes for Shard. It really should be something my character can remember, rather than me having to write it down somewhere.

I'd like the Birds to have their own boat, and because it's been a wish else where: Get that River Elf out of Lang and piloting that boat, because like give that NPC a bit of a continuation on his plot, and like it'll be a new in-game puzzle, possibly a different event leave the Bolt-holds or Bolt-holes or whatever they are where they are as a sort of, hide-out Thieves can use to dodge the law, run some other event. But give Riverhaven a real Guild, fewer rooms probably better, to me Guildleaders room, and a hangout room, maybe some type of entrance into room.

---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

>>// Ambush Bola
Should it only work with bolas? Why not throwing blades/daggers?
Most Ambushes have a purpose, such as a stun, sight hinderance, etc. What is the purpose of this ambush?
What circle would it be appropriate to learn at?

Bolas exclusively for the thematic RP leg tangling RT and the prone positioning on a huge success. It has to be bola because, well, think of how many times you've seen it in the movies and cartoons. Someone's running or walking, suddenly a bola's thrown at them, the victim's legs are tangled together, boom, tripping. The stunning and RT is something to provide the ability with more flavor. It's thematically subtle and in line with thief RP, useful for themed kidnappings and etc etc.

Realistically? The purpose of the ambush is entirely for PvP or maybe tripping up a major critter in an invasion. I want it entirely for PvP because as it stands, we don't have any viable missile-ranged abilities to use. While I love the melee-centric approach to our guild, I feel as though the bola would be a good, subtle, and, most importantly, -viable- way for us to engage PvP opponents at a missile range.

Circle 70 could be good. I see it as a high-end ambush because of its specific applications.

>>// Strength Buff
Is this something thieves need? (legit, I'm not being smart here, tell me what it would be used for)

Need? Arguably no. Want? Very much yes. Our weakness has always been fort contests because outside of the discipline buff, a tertiary stat in SvS contests, we're sitting ducks. A strength buff, similar to what khri focus did pre 3.0, can be a good way to not only help us cover one of our vulnerable areas, but it can also improve our damage output in combat in both PvE and PvP applications. Really I just miss having it.

> // Fan of knives
> Ideally, we could fit this into an existing system. Would ambush work for that, provided you had a stack of blades?

Yes. Also, can we call it "ambush shi-shi-SHA!"? No wait we already have pocket sand. Anyway, ambush ignite won't work without naphtha, so there must already be a framework for "don't allow this ambush if {item} not present." But it might require an additional check, if it uses throwing blades, to make sure there are enough. Or always throw as many as are in the stack, since that only goes up to 5?

> // Critter stealing
> Honestly been spoken about among staff before, but I think no one was willing to tackle the policy issues and there's a strong disapproval for adding more things that can be trained in combat. We'd like to get people out of combat and RPing more, because.. this is a RP game.

I definitely hermit it up too much. And I try to fix that. But it's hard to want to leave the thing that trains dozens of skills for a thing that trains only one or two. (Isharon had a good idea about that in the experience folder, boost inversely with the number of skills actively going, or at least I think it's a solid start to help with this.) Is it work-around-able at all? I mean, if you can only steal from a goblin if you're at missile, or only if you sneak into the room with a critter in it, and so on.

The thing that makes "critter stealing" so attractive to me as a player is: Mobs are infinite, so you could just keep at it, and you don't have to map a complex path through multiple cities under further restrictions like number of thefts per shop. It's not just that it's in combat, where I admit I prefer to be.

> // Stealing from NPCs
> Might be closer to being something that could be done, actually. I'm not sure on viability.
> How much of a reward of exp vs money do you think there should be?

OOC, I don't care anything about the money, just the exp. IC, well, my thief does want money. Making enough to fund a variety of work orders would be nice. Man, if I could steal nice steel for work orders, I'd that every day... anyway. What about options for the STEAL command--for NPCs or more, I dunno--like "steal Catrox 2 coin" for a low-risk, low-reward option. Or "steal Gauthus all" to try to empty his pockets but at a much higher risk.

> // AoE attack but not on LT
> So.. what is it based on? Elaborate here.

Not my suggestion originally, but... a twirling blade dance with small edged? A bonky dance with staves? Heh, I mean, if you have a long staff in your hands, you can hold just the very end and turn swiftly in place, hitting everyone engaged (even at pole, if the weapon suits). Or drop to a three-point stance like Black Widow, your free arm out to hamstring erryone with a slicing weapon? Not everything has hamstrings, but there are already coded in qualifications for things like Ice Patch.

Also, on Thayet's sweet B&E suggestion, tasks from guild leaders could be a lovely way to work in quests for thieves. A lot of us like quests. That could make learning the various ambushes more exciting as you progress. Like WMs learning pathways.

>Not sure if this falls out of the scope of this list, but would removing SIGN's random chance to have someone in the room see it be out of the question? It's one of those small cool things I never use solely for this reason. Whispering (and whisper group) are already existing alternatives to as well too. Maybe even a visible option just like whispering for RP?

I don't believe it is random, I believe there is a contest between your Stealth ranks (and possibly more) against every non-Thief in the room's Perception ranks (and possibly more) perhaps weighted or perhaps not.

That being said, perhaps your wishlist is non-the-less a more discreet form of communication, without fails.

---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

Thank you all for the responses an elaborations. It's helpful to see how viable we can make these ideas.

// Component pouches
You're skirting the bounds of this thread by asking for an improvement on an existing thing. Save this note for when we get the complaint thread started. It'll happen in a few days likely.

// Mass binning and pawning
This is interesting.
Should you have a special Guild-given container for this?
Do you give it to a NPC or put it in the bin?
What should happen to the items that have gotten cold?
Should there be any change to rep reward?

// REvised Haven Guild
I advise using scripts for entry. It's what I did as a thief PC back in the day, because I could NEVER remember my Shard password, but my Haven one was enough of a phrase, I never forgot it (mukuthegay.)
What kind of ability could be written to make this easier, a contact guide, a tunnel? For lore reasons, the haven guild definitely won't change, and I'm unsure about the Shard one.

// khri attack
I might have laughed out loud, but you're not making a good argument here. The khri is still the mental preparation, the attack comes after, even in your description here.

// New Stealing Concepts
Stealing blind or quick is honestly along the lines of things Ssra and I were discussing when we last had a topic going about Stealing issues. I'll have to check with him to see what actually got approved and if we can put some focus on it, but his work is fairly busy right now and he doesn't have a lot of free time. The short of it is, we heard the complaints, we made a plan, and there's something approved, but we need GM bandwidth to get it done.

// Disarm
Would this be related to an ambush or a maneuver everyone would have access to?
IF you don't hit the wrist, where should you hit?
What's the range of success?
What does a partial success look like?
When do you learn this?

//Ambushing garrott
Should an ambush go for a kill or just maim? I think all? of the current ones aim at giving the target a disadvantage and the thief an advantage somehow, yes?
If we're going for multi-hit ambush, I'm thinking this should be appropriate for a high circle release?

//Poison and remain hidden
For consent reasoning, there should be a way that the target can determine who did it. Similar to SNIPE, this would require systems that enable a GM to remove your ability to do it if abused, because being able to hurt someone and *not be caught* is a dangerous road on the pvp policy and I do not honestly believe I could get this idea approved as it stands. Still open to hearing adjustments to this idea.

//AoE not LT
So, unarmed martial arts/brawling aoe to anything engaged close enough? Are we talking "One Thousand Palms" Naruto-style stuff?
You mention stacked blades but you didn't want LT, those are LT. I'm afraid I'm not following, unless you're waffling a bit here?

//Contact deliver for distant cities
I believe we have some approved concepts for adjusting where contacts where that would enable them to work based on other factors besides strictly inside a city. This is again a project of a GM that doesn't have a lot of time currently, but it is something open on our table.

// Move forward with retreats
I think some creatures do this, yes? This might be appropriate to tack into a current khri. Which one makes the most sense to you?
I suggest khri, because there should be a way to turn it on/off when desired.

//Tumbling using Athletics
I like this for both Thieves and Bards, actually, but with different results, because the guilds would likely be using the skills very differently.
How would tumbling differ from maneuvers?
When should you learn it?
Should this be a Dwillig thing along with ambushes?
Should each tumble be parsed out like ambushes or should you get a package?
If multiple, what does each do?

// A bunch of stuff I asked to not be posted
I'm not addressing this stuff even if you put it in the middle of a valid post.


// Silent stowing/getting
This is already done with SLIP, which handles all of the restrictions like size and weight. I don't really see a reason to duplicate an existing system.

// Dual backstab
I think I'm gonna have to do some research on just how possible that would really be. In my head, it seems incredibly unwieldly, but I don't want to say no just yet.
What if the thief is using two large weapons?
What if there's a large weapon and a small weapon?

// Blinding
Would this be better to add into ambush sight? We could check for room enviros to decide if dirt is there, if a dirtbag (lol) isn't found on your character.

//coldcock
I'm fairly sure there's already an ambush that does this. How does this differ?

//Throat slit
Seen this one mentioned above slightly differently. I can see it as an ambush.
What happens on partial success?
Should it do enough damage to kill on a sufficiently lower-skilled target?

//Garrotte
Should we match on the noun of the weapon to allow it to work with existing props?
Should this require a new prop?
Would it be better or worse if it used mechs similar to Barbarian CHOKE?

//slash
Already exists as an ambush but I believe tends to use a blade. Could probably update to use blunt for your second mention -- if it doesn't already.

//Wound aggravation
You are a vicious little thing, hm? I could see this working on the same scale as TENDING ammo out of someone. Initial damage might be minor, with more skill, a bit harsher. What makes this Thief only?

// bind and gag
I.. for so many reasons beyond pvp, am gonna not touch this topic again.

//bombs & traps
This might show up later in Engineering.

// Fix all
Already discussed.

// contact Fence
Interesting. Would it be better if it was static in a guild hall?
At what circle do you get access?
How should your rep alter results?

// Contact stalk
Sell this to me in a way that wouldn't cause CE issues involving harassment and I'll engage you further.

//contact Fall guy and clean up
Is this maybe in line with the guard bribe or just an alternate to it?


// Contacts outside of cities
I made some comments on this above in my post.

// Fam and companion proof
This could probably be possible, though it would likely have a timer much like Aether Cloak, which I believe does a similar thing?
Should the item only work on Thieves?
How long should it work?
What's the cooldown?

// Lucky coin
I'm not sure justice would play with this well, but it's not out of the question. For mechanical reasons, you cannot remove the manacles a jail puts on you.. or uh, you kind of lose all of your stuff. Those that have experienced bugs with items not getting properly stripped from them know that your items don't really leave you (unless they get put into a sack), they just get moved.

//Passive theft in town
I can't see anyone really liking this -- or me getting it approved -- as you've proposed it here, since it would involve loss of their money without the normal involvement of another PC.


//Quests for stealing items
Probably better as a task system, but yes, I do think we could use some stealing tasks from GLs.

// Thief highway
So not actual rooms to go through, but very much like the "handwave" Ranger trails get? I mean,it's doable, but you might find that in setting it up, it would be quicker to manually run where you want to go, rather than sit through the RT I would be forced to attach to this within a city. Now, for a city like Aesry or Ratha, this might be much more useful than in Riverhaven, Therenborough, Shard, or Crossing.

// removing SIGN's random chance
This is another thing I'm gonna suggest you hold onto for a future thread.

// Thief Quests
Are we talking mini quests within the game or full fledged paywall quests?

//Reputation
Access to rooms based on your rep could be doable.. or even access to additional shop rooms within the guild.
Not sure about warping, but rep-locked tunnels could be a thing.

// Thief comm
As in long distance? Isn't that what contact is for?

Note: I want to address this before it even comes up.. Yes, while I've been very candid about the fact that I once played a thief PC and that I have a noob thief at the moment, my play times are pretty low, and I'm not nearly as familiar with the issues with the guild as they stand today as you all are, which is why these discussions are happening. I'm not here to "make it better for me" or to "play favorites." If you feel that I am, I encourage you to contact drfeedback and voice your complaints about my dev practices there, but I'll also suggest you take a good look at all the many other areas I touch and try to give attention to.

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NaOH+HI

Mass binning

I'd like it to use mechanics similar to Mags. Just give a container full of applicable items and they take it.

With those mechanics if there is any non applicable item the NPC rejects the container. You would need to give the player some guidance here (that item is cold!) or whatever.

Haven guild
If restructuring it is out, then allowing a level 50+ ability that just takes you there would be nice. Or having a high level tunnel that connects to each guild hole so you can rumble around faster.

Disarm
I'd be happy sharing it. If it fails I'd make it a feint or a miss. It's such a fine shot that I would make it three levels; complete failure, partial failure, and complete success. Partial failures apply a minor OF debuff for a few seconds depending on success. Complete success means the victim cannot use that hand for X seconds. Anything held is disabled, can't attack or stow, can't use two handed weapons

To me the high end should be limited almost exclusively to lower level targets as a sort of thump equivalent. The true meat and potatoes is the partial levels.

We currently cap out on ambushes at 60. If put this around 70?

>>// Mass binning and pawning
>>This is interesting.
>>Should you have a special Guild-given container for this?

I would like this but it would need to be pretty large (similar to the new Wolf Clan containers) and easily accessible.


>>Do you give it to a NPC or put it in the bin?

My vote would be for the bin, but really I'm ok with either if one is easier to code than the other.


>>What should happen to the items that have gotten cold?

They could remain in the container. I'm ok with having to toss cold/non-pawnable items by hand if the majority of them are handled automatically.


>>Should there be any change to rep reward?

It should be the same amount you would have gotten if you put them in one at a time. I don't think there should be any penalty or benefit to this other than convenience.


>>// Disarm
>>Would this be related to an ambush or a maneuver everyone would have access to?

I would prefer for it to be an Ambush.


>>IF you don't hit the wrist, where should you hit?
>>What's the range of success?
>>What does a partial success look like?

After thinking about this a bit partial success could be a minor OF penalty but they keep their weapon, and full success would be a successful disarm (and maybe a strong or longer OF penalty) with the weapon landing on the ground, or the at-feet slot if it works on players. If they have no weapon then you only get partial success and the minor OF penalty.


>>When do you learn this?

90+. I would like to see new Thief abilities fill out the upper circles where you get little to nothing. All Ambushes are attained at 60th and all Khri at 110th right now.


>>//Ambushing garrott
>>Should an ambush go for a kill or just maim? I think all? of the current ones aim at giving the target a disadvantage and the thief an advantage somehow, yes?

Yes, Ambushes amount to stealth attacks that give debilitations right now.


>>If we're going for multi-hit ambush, I'm thinking this should be appropriate for a high circle release?

I would love something akin to the DP Inter's special attack (I think, or it could be assassins) where they make several quick attacks in one move. Make it give a balance debuff and be a 100-120th ability.

>// Single target ambush screen-type thing
>This might be skirting the bounds of this thread, but I'll comment on it anyway.
>Should it be wrapped into the same ambush or a seperate one?

Whoops - on reread a number of my suggestions skirted or outright broke the thread rules; my apologies (I was thinking that "fix" suggestions were more "this is broken" as opposed to enhancement/addition of existing skills, but perhaps I was parsing too finely).

In any case, in terms of wrapped into same ambush vs separate, it seems natural to me that since they'd be doing the same thing (dirt --> face for perception debuff + random RT), they'd be the same ambush.

>>//Ambushing garrotte
>Should an ambush go for a kill or just maim? I think all? of the current ones aim at giving the target a disadvantage and the thief an advantage somehow, yes?
>If we're going for multi-hit ambush, I'm thinking this should be appropriate for a high circle release?

All would be ideal, especially if it goes through multiple checks.
I think it definitely sounds like a high level ability. Would give people something to work towards.

>//Poison and remain hidden
>For consent reasoning, there should be a way that the target can determine who did it. Similar to SNIPE, this would require systems that enable a GM to remove your ability to do it if abused, because being able to hurt someone and *not be caught* is a dangerous road on the pvp policy and I do not honestly believe I could get this idea approved as it stands. Still open to hearing adjustments to this idea.

I would say get rid of the remain hidden part and it would be a perfectly serviceable ability, similar to the way ignite works. Allow poison application based on stealth and stats rather than a weapon contest.

>//AoE not LT
>So, unarmed martial arts/brawling aoe to anything engaged close enough? Are we talking "One Thousand Palms" Naruto-style stuff?
>You mention stacked blades but you didn't want LT, those are LT. I'm afraid I'm not following, unless you're waffling a bit here?

I guess I was waffling a bit. Forget I said anything about knives, the monk-mode "one thousand palms" thing sounds cool.

>//Garrotte
>Should we match on the noun of the weapon to allow it to work with existing props?
>Should this require a new prop?
>Would it be better or worse if it used mechs similar to Barbarian CHOKE?

Pls don't have this require some random thief shop item as suggested. That's lame. The thief could just produce the item during the attack, we already require too much crap in our hands to do ambushes as-is.


>// Dual backstab
>I think I'm gonna have to do some research on just how possible that would really be. In my head, it seems incredibly unwieldly, but I don't want to say no just yet.
>What if the thief is using two large weapons?
>What if there's a large weapon and a small weapon?

Restrict it to Small Edged only maybe?

>>I believe they're looking for something like an announcement system that would message all Thieves in game. So you could send a message like "Thievery class available in the Den." or "Selling Fade weapons." Basically to send out a blast message that should be guild only. Should probably have a cool down timer of some sort to prevent spamming.

This might fall more in line with the SERVICE system I've got in the works. I can see about working in a way to make private listings for thieves, since it makes sense for them to be able to "pass a rumor" of offering stuff among other thieves.

---
NaOH+HI

>> >>// Mass binning and pawning
>>This is interesting.
>>Should you have a special Guild-given container for this?

A pawn bag would be really cool for all guilds who dabble in stealing. Obviously thieves are the master of thievery, but it's not a guild only skill as much as it may feel like it at times.

This seems like a really nice QOL change to stealing, but maybe one that could be open to all guilds?

Reading the Ranger list made me think of one.

Khri urban bonus.

The urban bonus is a huge chunk of thiefness. Being able to toss up some ability which would allow the thief access to that in non urban areas would be nice. Like the ranger memory of nature.

Wishlist Thievery:

A while back when stealing got turned into Thievery (3.x stuffs), it changed because in part it was supposed to (from what I remember rednames posting at the time) govern more things then just stealing.

It was supposed to be a slight of Hand, tricks of manual manipulation type things.

Being able to remove manacles comes to mind. Being able to slip things comes to mind (but isn't slip already available, and isn't it mostly using the Stealth ranks of the character?), this all being written there is a bit of when could more of Thievery be established into the game, and what would it look like.

For me as part of a quote that the late GM Socharis said "I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous." suggests that maybe it could be something that takes a little bit of the sting and need to use the current Stealing Scripts and allows for some other stuff to be done.

Maybe it could be somewhat similar to the performance things people can entertain crowds with in game, only developed to use Thievery as the person slight of hands cards, and which one to pick type of thing? Maybe some add-ons to the existing slip system.

Maybe it could also be used to suddenly use an item in or outside of combat (like dirt, or if garroting comes into play) into your 'hands' without needing to occupy the left or right hand slot?

Yes, I'd like it to help train Thievery, but I'm for it being something neat, useful, and readily available for most adventurers (especially Thieves).

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

// Area review for urban areas.
Is there currently an issue with an areas that LOOK urban, but are not? If so, I can see about tagging in something as well. I know there's an issue for non-urban areas.

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NaOH+HI

>>a lot of shops are set to neutral

I think this was intended, to balance Rangers, but I'll ask and check into it.

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NaOH+HI

> >>a lot of shops are set to neutral

>I think this was intended, to balance Rangers, but I'll ask and check into it.

I also think that an area can be flagged as being artifial (Urban Bonus area) and as having Wilderness (Wild for Rangers) as well. That is that these two systems aren't tied into each other, so one doesn't need to affect the other. This is just from years of reading Thief and Ranger forums things, I can't remember where I saw the post or posts that made me get this impression.

[note: I had to re-add bold, guess I should copy from the In response to: window below, whoops.]

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

Was re-reading posts, and realized I didn't respond to something that I felt wanted a response to it:

// Thief highway
>So not actual rooms to go through, but very much like the "handwave" Ranger trails get? I mean,it's doable, but you might find that in setting it up, it would be quicker to manually run where you want to go, rather than sit through the RT I would be forced to attach to this within a city. Now, for a city like Aesry or Ratha, this might be much more useful than in Riverhaven, Therenborough, Shard, or Crossing.

'Handwave' of Ranger trails is what I was trying to convey in the original post. Glad I wrote the second attempt to convey with a bit of a descriptor. There are times where being a Thief and being unseen, untouchable IS very important, so regardless of which city, it would be very COOL to ME (and I'd hope others would like it too). Though in Ratha, and Aesry, perhaps even in Therenborough if it's able to get through certain areas because of certain times. Also could see that same concept working well in Shard with their gate system. But even Crossing, I'd personally use it.

Additional request within which, if it moved Athletics, and Possibly Stealth and/or Thievery in trickle manners. Because of manual slight of hand manipulations to allow one to slip and move into the 'Highway' unnoticed by others, and of course darting over buildings on the quick and up sloped roofs, and over alleyways QUICKLY is a show of athletic prowess.

---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

>>I checked the passages in Crossing (guild, town green, a couple rooms in the 5th passage) and they were all appropriately urban.

Works for me. It had been awhile since I checked.

You still have to forage the dirt and push container to have dirt in hand to use the ambush. The container is simply a novel storage device.

Unless it allows you to ambush screen/choke without pushing.