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<I understand the downtime can be frustrating
Ah yes.
<and that the initial few ranks can be difficult since the Guild Hall isn't a viable place to learn it these days
Do people care about this / is this true? I can’t imagine it’s that hard since circles 1 – 5 of DR are basically “type command, gain a billion ranks,” but I could be wrong as it’s been quite some time since I’ve rolled a newbie that tried to steal.
<but what is your expectation of learning Thievery?
I should be able to ML in <20 minutes in most (major) cities at most ranks. Not saying I should be able to live in one place my entire life (though that’s true of most other systems I think?), not saying I should be able to make a ton of coin off a run, but I shouldn’t be limited to living in two areas from circle 80+ if I want to continue to keep thievery at level.
Right now, at 390 thievery, I will only live in Shard or Muspar’i, and even Shard is annoying (from the thievery perspective; Muspar’i is obviously annoying from virtually every other perspective).
<The system, as written, is fairly well scaled
I don’t know what this means. Not trying to be a snert; I just don’t know what exactly you mean by this. As I see it, the system is a giant pain starting when your character hits mid-size (perhaps circle 50?) and is an increasing pain from then on. As such, assuming we have similar definitions of fairly well scaled, I disagree with this statement with some vehemence. If we have different definitions...
<and is varied by value and weight.
This is certainly true, but I don’t think the values/weights vary nearly enough.
<Some key things/tips I've noticed by watching some folks on their runs ...
Appreciate your tips, but none of them applies to me (I hide, mark, tweak my scripts frequently, don’t use prog steal, steal custom items, &c.)
<dealing with three distinct groups/needs: need to train (don't care about profit), want to profit (don't care about exp), and roleplay <(could care less about exp or profit just want the feel/vibe from doing something awesome).
I think this is close to right, but I’d bet there’s actually a fourth group: Needs to train (and cares at least a little about profit, but will sacrifice it if that’s required to train).
That said, if your groups are representative, then the system currently serves groups 2 and 3 fairly well I’d imagine (the pawners and the RPers). I’d bet group 1 (or my version of it) dwarfs the other two in terms of # of players, however.
JPIZ
NINEVAH1
Re: Thievery
09/29/2015 07:22 PM CDT
>>BS as in backstabbing? I thought that skill went away? I'm confused now :(
It did not go anywhere since it is the guild only skill of Thieves. It just no longer has a hard req since it has a narrow focus.
It did not go anywhere since it is the guild only skill of Thieves. It just no longer has a hard req since it has a narrow focus.
BADGOPHER
Re: Thievery
09/29/2015 07:26 PM CDT
By and large, my problem with stealing is the risk vs. reward.
It's basically the opposite of combat. In combat, I've got very little risk, and very high reward, for experience gain. In stealing, I have very high (as in 100% certainty) risk, and no reward (other than experience, which I use for nothing but...more experience...), unless I choose to engage in very specific PvP scenarios.
In a run I have to choose between stealing from a shop 6 times and getting caught randomly on the first or 6th time, or stealing 1-2 times, getting substantially less experience overall, and...still having about the same odds of getting caught.
The snake-eyes in stealing is simply too high, because the penalty in stealing is binary. You get caught, you get a fine. The fine varies, but the penalty does not. Time in jail coupled with item charge loss and a cash cost.
The reward for stealing is pawnable items. Which, given how the pawn shop works, means the reward for stealing is either 1 copper per item, or nothing because the pawn shop won't buy it. Or you can bin things, which has its own set of 'meh'.
Stealing in and of itself is too random. It feels like the game 'forces' you to steal multiple low value items. You learn far, far, less from single high risk items (in fact, you usually learn nothing, because you'll fail the steal and get a large fine...).
Honestly, I'd like to see a GM clone a mid-level thief, and run through stealing stuff for a few days without any GM cheat codes, and give us some data on what they did and how, so we can compare it to how player-thieves are doing it so wrong, because I've seen a lot of GMs swear that stealing isn't nearly as unfun, ugly, etc. as players say.
It's basically the opposite of combat. In combat, I've got very little risk, and very high reward, for experience gain. In stealing, I have very high (as in 100% certainty) risk, and no reward (other than experience, which I use for nothing but...more experience...), unless I choose to engage in very specific PvP scenarios.
In a run I have to choose between stealing from a shop 6 times and getting caught randomly on the first or 6th time, or stealing 1-2 times, getting substantially less experience overall, and...still having about the same odds of getting caught.
The snake-eyes in stealing is simply too high, because the penalty in stealing is binary. You get caught, you get a fine. The fine varies, but the penalty does not. Time in jail coupled with item charge loss and a cash cost.
The reward for stealing is pawnable items. Which, given how the pawn shop works, means the reward for stealing is either 1 copper per item, or nothing because the pawn shop won't buy it. Or you can bin things, which has its own set of 'meh'.
Stealing in and of itself is too random. It feels like the game 'forces' you to steal multiple low value items. You learn far, far, less from single high risk items (in fact, you usually learn nothing, because you'll fail the steal and get a large fine...).
Honestly, I'd like to see a GM clone a mid-level thief, and run through stealing stuff for a few days without any GM cheat codes, and give us some data on what they did and how, so we can compare it to how player-thieves are doing it so wrong, because I've seen a lot of GMs swear that stealing isn't nearly as unfun, ugly, etc. as players say.
VOLCANUS
Re: Thievery
09/29/2015 07:26 PM CDT
Then thieves won't have a guild skill. Everyone in today's world has a skill only they can learn, save commoners. Thieves get backstabbing.
The other side of the coin (haha) is that taking away a skill from everyone else doesn't seem like a trivial or best solution.
I like the point made earlier. Let the highest of backstabbing or thievery count towards circling. This lets the thief branch off into a path that better fits them. Stealthy thief or combat thief.
BADGOPHER
Re: Thievery
09/29/2015 07:31 PM CDT
I'm double posting myself. Sorry.
What I'd like to see in stealing, at some point, is...don't cost me a charge on my gweths. Seriously. I'm fine with paying double the fine, or whatever, but worn/consumable/charged items are a hassle to replace if you're not in Crossing (and/or don't run 400 alts...).
The skill itself? Eh. More museum-style interesting thievery ventures, more novel and fun uses for stealing (planting evidence), things with interesting risk vs. reward curves which aren't just 'go in shop, mark X, mark Y, mark Z, steal X, steal X, drop X, drop X, hide, steal X, steal x, drop x, drop x, hide, steal x, steal x, drop x, drop x, out'.
Fixing the risk curve would be nice. I'd rather risk stealing that 400 stone portable stove, and get decent exp for a partial success, than spam steal/drop/hid for 4-10 times in one shop because the 'best' learning method is to steal infinite things an invisible hair above 'doesn't teach' any more.
What I'd like to see in stealing, at some point, is...don't cost me a charge on my gweths. Seriously. I'm fine with paying double the fine, or whatever, but worn/consumable/charged items are a hassle to replace if you're not in Crossing (and/or don't run 400 alts...).
The skill itself? Eh. More museum-style interesting thievery ventures, more novel and fun uses for stealing (planting evidence), things with interesting risk vs. reward curves which aren't just 'go in shop, mark X, mark Y, mark Z, steal X, steal X, drop X, drop X, hide, steal X, steal x, drop x, drop x, hide, steal x, steal x, drop x, drop x, out'.
Fixing the risk curve would be nice. I'd rather risk stealing that 400 stone portable stove, and get decent exp for a partial success, than spam steal/drop/hid for 4-10 times in one shop because the 'best' learning method is to steal infinite things an invisible hair above 'doesn't teach' any more.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Thievery
09/29/2015 08:49 PM CDT
I think I have to finally agree with something volcanus said.
"I like the point made earlier. Let the highest of backstabbing or thievery count towards circling. This lets the thief branch off into a path that better fits them. Stealthy thief or combat thief."
This. So much this. Then all the thiefy thieves can be happy stealing and all the thug thieves can be happy stabbing.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
"I like the point made earlier. Let the highest of backstabbing or thievery count towards circling. This lets the thief branch off into a path that better fits them. Stealthy thief or combat thief."
This. So much this. Then all the thiefy thieves can be happy stealing and all the thug thieves can be happy stabbing.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
LOCUTIS1
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 12:07 AM CDT
>>What are the chances we can just flip flop the req for Thievery and BS behind the scenes?
We are the thieves guild, not assassins guild.
One thing that happens with DR, is that we get into a routine of "this is how things are"
An example of this is our bonus. For so long it has been easy to get top bonus, so we are used to playing that way. If that was stripped back and made alot harder to obtain, or the time to drift back to normal was increased, we would see it as a nerfing of our characters.
Thievery under 500 was fairly easy to learn, but as you get into the higher numbers, you have to refine and change the script more and more. A good point was made, with saying, doing that with combat scripts is ok cause it can effect so many skills. But stealing is just Thievery.
Im liking the idea of more places to steal, Museums and Nobles houses ect.
I think us as players need to take some responsibility for the throne museum not attracting much attention from newer thieves. WE need to sell some of these places for ways of gaining EXP with RP. If you get what im saying.
The idea of needing a thief to steal the gweth stones, so moonies can make gweths is great, and i could be wrong, but i cant think of anything else in game that follows this idea.
Something or things, new to steal that could be used in the crafting system as someone else touched on in another post. That special part of the crossbow trigger, that you steal and then copy or a crafter uses as a template to make that slightly better crossbow. Unique gems of different types to make those more expensive jewlery, Maybe even weapons that have a limited life span?
Rifkinn
We are the thieves guild, not assassins guild.
One thing that happens with DR, is that we get into a routine of "this is how things are"
An example of this is our bonus. For so long it has been easy to get top bonus, so we are used to playing that way. If that was stripped back and made alot harder to obtain, or the time to drift back to normal was increased, we would see it as a nerfing of our characters.
Thievery under 500 was fairly easy to learn, but as you get into the higher numbers, you have to refine and change the script more and more. A good point was made, with saying, doing that with combat scripts is ok cause it can effect so many skills. But stealing is just Thievery.
Im liking the idea of more places to steal, Museums and Nobles houses ect.
I think us as players need to take some responsibility for the throne museum not attracting much attention from newer thieves. WE need to sell some of these places for ways of gaining EXP with RP. If you get what im saying.
The idea of needing a thief to steal the gweth stones, so moonies can make gweths is great, and i could be wrong, but i cant think of anything else in game that follows this idea.
Something or things, new to steal that could be used in the crafting system as someone else touched on in another post. That special part of the crossbow trigger, that you steal and then copy or a crafter uses as a template to make that slightly better crossbow. Unique gems of different types to make those more expensive jewlery, Maybe even weapons that have a limited life span?
Rifkinn
HERALD42
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 06:35 AM CDT
>>Most folks I watch are clearly using the progressive stealing script provided on Elanthipedia (granted, this has changed a bit with the shop updates). While convenient it isn't custom. Nothing beats really surveying the shops with mark and finding items squarely in your range. In my day to day I usually mark without any thief mojo active to find something that's a bit less risky than 50/50 and when I do the actual run I buff up to further lower that risk.
Been thinking about this more. The largest challenge in using shops to train Thievery - aside from fines greatly outpacing profit - seems to be finding the best item that teaches but that won't increase our fines/tank our rep. What if we had a Mark that pointed us toward, say, three options: the least risky item that still teaches, the item that's likely to pawn for the most in the range of items that we could feasibly grab, and the item that's closer to 50/50 that would still pawn?
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
Been thinking about this more. The largest challenge in using shops to train Thievery - aside from fines greatly outpacing profit - seems to be finding the best item that teaches but that won't increase our fines/tank our rep. What if we had a Mark that pointed us toward, say, three options: the least risky item that still teaches, the item that's likely to pawn for the most in the range of items that we could feasibly grab, and the item that's closer to 50/50 that would still pawn?
"Nobody cares about the feasibility of Sidhlot's portrayal of evil. That's not the point. He's older than dragons and so metal he poops viking helmets." - Armifer
"That is so not how magic works." -Raesh
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu-proxy R'lyeh
BENNETTJ13
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 08:57 AM CDT
Rifkinn,
You can call it what you want, but our guild skill is Backstab. NOT Thievery. In fact, you could argue that while others may not have the bonuses to thievery that we do, they most certainly do not suffer the stupid drawbacks either. There are rangers who uses thievery as their circling survival. These other guilds do not have the rep issues, confidence issues, or any other downside shared with us with the thievery system other than fines. So... keep fighting for that. If that's what it takes to be in the Thieves guild, you can have it. It's personally why I hate the skill. We should stand out at being the best at it. Not being the best at being abused by it. And as you yourself said... "we get into a routine of 'this is how things are'" The guild has changed a hundred times since it started. It's ever evolving. It's what the thieves guild does. I'm not asking for a revolution, not asking for The Black to be brought back. I'm asking for it to make sense. Just because it's called the thieves guild doesn't mean that stealing is the be all end all. I never asked for it to be the assassins guild. That is stupid. But Rogues? That's really not that far fetched from what we have become. Much of our identity is shared, and it's rather smeared as an identity. My opinion is it fits us much more so than thieves anymore. I don't know a lot of "thieves" anymore that don't steal just because they have to. The number of people using that progressive script alone should tell you that.
Am I lobbying to have the guild name changed? Not really, though it would make far more sense. Do I think it makes FAR more sense to have Backstab count over Thievery? Or have Thievery count for Nth, or even take the higher of the two (hell... even three if you want to involve the locksmiths). Absolutely. No other guild has as many skills as part of it's identity. It's been posted a million times that backstab is our guild skill. Yet we are tied to Thievery because of a guild name... that's dumb. So what other guilds have that restriction? None.
Do I think Thievery needs love? Absolutely. Will I still dislike the skill? Absolutely. I don't get enjoyment from it. The act of stealing is not a part of what I like about this game. So I do not care. As for newb museum runs... I've talked to the Thief mentors about setting them up in the past. You won't be the first that's done it. We used to do them years ago as well. This isn't anything new. Good on you for wanting to do them again.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
You can call it what you want, but our guild skill is Backstab. NOT Thievery. In fact, you could argue that while others may not have the bonuses to thievery that we do, they most certainly do not suffer the stupid drawbacks either. There are rangers who uses thievery as their circling survival. These other guilds do not have the rep issues, confidence issues, or any other downside shared with us with the thievery system other than fines. So... keep fighting for that. If that's what it takes to be in the Thieves guild, you can have it. It's personally why I hate the skill. We should stand out at being the best at it. Not being the best at being abused by it. And as you yourself said... "we get into a routine of 'this is how things are'" The guild has changed a hundred times since it started. It's ever evolving. It's what the thieves guild does. I'm not asking for a revolution, not asking for The Black to be brought back. I'm asking for it to make sense. Just because it's called the thieves guild doesn't mean that stealing is the be all end all. I never asked for it to be the assassins guild. That is stupid. But Rogues? That's really not that far fetched from what we have become. Much of our identity is shared, and it's rather smeared as an identity. My opinion is it fits us much more so than thieves anymore. I don't know a lot of "thieves" anymore that don't steal just because they have to. The number of people using that progressive script alone should tell you that.
Am I lobbying to have the guild name changed? Not really, though it would make far more sense. Do I think it makes FAR more sense to have Backstab count over Thievery? Or have Thievery count for Nth, or even take the higher of the two (hell... even three if you want to involve the locksmiths). Absolutely. No other guild has as many skills as part of it's identity. It's been posted a million times that backstab is our guild skill. Yet we are tied to Thievery because of a guild name... that's dumb. So what other guilds have that restriction? None.
Do I think Thievery needs love? Absolutely. Will I still dislike the skill? Absolutely. I don't get enjoyment from it. The act of stealing is not a part of what I like about this game. So I do not care. As for newb museum runs... I've talked to the Thief mentors about setting them up in the past. You won't be the first that's done it. We used to do them years ago as well. This isn't anything new. Good on you for wanting to do them again.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
MASTER-MAHAN
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 11:08 AM CDT
I'd like to see a thievery system that has a little more to offer thieves than a marking ability and a codependent, museum raid at the edge of the world.
Fencing Contracts!
ask guildleader for contract
Guildleader says, "I have a job for you. Shop X has item Y and I wants it. Get it and bring it to the fence."
What a contract is:
A client has hired the guild to acquire an item from a shop.
The item in question would be something not included in the shop's inventory.
How a contract works:
The thief cases the shop by utilizing the mark ability, which would generate a mild amount of experience.
Once the shop is marked, a period of time must pass before another mark can be made.
Upon completely casing the shop, requiring several successful marks, the item can be stolen generating a large amount of experience.
Think Astrology observations & predictions.
Upon delivering the item to the guild fence, a skill level appropriate sum of money would be awarded representing the thieve's cut.
tl;dr work order + thiefly astrology = moh-nay! (and experience)
This wouldn't require creation (and QC) of any new areas, could likely be accomplished utilizing similar logic found in other game systems (task, work order, and Astrology specifically), and would allow for a somewhat more robust stealing experience for thieves apart from "Run through 500 shops stealing 5 items from each one and garnering a death sentence in 12 provinces.
But what do I know, I'm just a doctor.
Fencing Contracts!
ask guildleader for contract
Guildleader says, "I have a job for you. Shop X has item Y and I wants it. Get it and bring it to the fence."
What a contract is:
A client has hired the guild to acquire an item from a shop.
The item in question would be something not included in the shop's inventory.
How a contract works:
The thief cases the shop by utilizing the mark ability, which would generate a mild amount of experience.
Once the shop is marked, a period of time must pass before another mark can be made.
Upon completely casing the shop, requiring several successful marks, the item can be stolen generating a large amount of experience.
Think Astrology observations & predictions.
Upon delivering the item to the guild fence, a skill level appropriate sum of money would be awarded representing the thieve's cut.
tl;dr work order + thiefly astrology = moh-nay! (and experience)
This wouldn't require creation (and QC) of any new areas, could likely be accomplished utilizing similar logic found in other game systems (task, work order, and Astrology specifically), and would allow for a somewhat more robust stealing experience for thieves apart from "Run through 500 shops stealing 5 items from each one and garnering a death sentence in 12 provinces.
But what do I know, I'm just a doctor.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 11:12 AM CDT
I like that. Especially if it's a lock after.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
ABSOLON
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 11:23 AM CDT
Stream of thought ideas about the suggested fencing task system:
Instead of the guildleader make it a specific fence NPC, one in each province. This would allow easier integration directly into the task system, since guildleaders already have certain tasks associated with them.
Like hunt tasks, have it potentially send you to a different province based on skill/circle. Allow return of the item to a different fence than the one you got it from for a reduced EXP/monetary reward.
Have different types of tasks. One as suggested where you know where the item is and have to case out the joint over time to get it. Another where you know the area it is in, but need to find it yourself by marking different shops/locations. Another where you have to ambush a delivery of the item by marking a location along the route and laying in wait then killing the guard in a combo hunt/thievery task.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Instead of the guildleader make it a specific fence NPC, one in each province. This would allow easier integration directly into the task system, since guildleaders already have certain tasks associated with them.
Like hunt tasks, have it potentially send you to a different province based on skill/circle. Allow return of the item to a different fence than the one you got it from for a reduced EXP/monetary reward.
Have different types of tasks. One as suggested where you know where the item is and have to case out the joint over time to get it. Another where you know the area it is in, but need to find it yourself by marking different shops/locations. Another where you have to ambush a delivery of the item by marking a location along the route and laying in wait then killing the guard in a combo hunt/thievery task.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
DEFOL
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 11:36 AM CDT
<< No other guild has as many skills as part of it's identity.
Pretty sure other guilds have annoying skills that they would rather not train too. I'm sorry but just because you have a good hunting script doesn't mean that everything should be re-worked to fit your needs. Talk about weird and useless skills bards have performance, moon mages have scholarship, paladins have scholarship, traders have appraisal, war mages scholarship etc. I would shoot myself if i had to train any of those skills as a hard req.
We can argue here all day but to me it seems very unlikely that thievery is going away, there is just no reasonable argument against it. Thieves -- thievery, it's pretty simple. We should consider us lucky to have it.
Pretty sure other guilds have annoying skills that they would rather not train too. I'm sorry but just because you have a good hunting script doesn't mean that everything should be re-worked to fit your needs. Talk about weird and useless skills bards have performance, moon mages have scholarship, paladins have scholarship, traders have appraisal, war mages scholarship etc. I would shoot myself if i had to train any of those skills as a hard req.
We can argue here all day but to me it seems very unlikely that thievery is going away, there is just no reasonable argument against it. Thieves -- thievery, it's pretty simple. We should consider us lucky to have it.
MASTER-MAHAN
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 12:02 PM CDT
The harsh reality of the current setup is that if you plan on training even remotely efficiently as a thief, you have to script. If you are out there manually running from shop to shop making a conscious decision as to what you're going to emancipate, you are a scholar and a gentleman... and probably <circle 20 #realtalk.
__________________________________________________________________
Come to TF! We're not always doing business, but we're always open!
__________________________________________________________________
Come to TF! We're not always doing business, but we're always open!
CHUNGUS
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 12:42 PM CDT
I can see why people focused on combat and numbers would be upset by needing to leave combat to train a required skill, especially when it isn't easy to lock. On the bright side it's a primary skill! My cleric is held back by her primary weapon, and there's no getting around the slow learning rate, even if it is easier to fill the pool.
I dunno that taking the hard thievery req out of the Thieves Guild is the answer, but needing to balance being in a good area for stealing (or needing to travel all over the map) with being in an area you can train combat skills is probably a bit silly.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 01:07 PM CDT
>>The harsh reality of the current setup is that if you plan on training even remotely efficiently as a ____, you have to script.
Let's call a spade a spade here, if you wanna train anything "efficiently", you're scripting. Is stealing more difficult than some other skills? Sure. Of all the skills out there is it the worst? Nope. Many guilds have a skill that holds them back, and folks scream about it. Stealing, at least from my experience on my thief, isn't even top 3 for annoying.
Samsaren
Let's call a spade a spade here, if you wanna train anything "efficiently", you're scripting. Is stealing more difficult than some other skills? Sure. Of all the skills out there is it the worst? Nope. Many guilds have a skill that holds them back, and folks scream about it. Stealing, at least from my experience on my thief, isn't even top 3 for annoying.
Samsaren
VOLCANUS
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 01:15 PM CDT
> Stealing, at least from my experience on my thief, isn't even top 3 for annoying.
Which skills are more annoying than stealing?
MASTER-MAHAN
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 01:38 PM CDT
As much fun as the 'who has it worse' contest is, I'm advocating a more universal shift in the way guild specific abilities are trained. A more dynamic approach to gameplay gets people to engage the game rather than starting a script and opening Netflix. I like scripting, I do it 24/7 - it's one of the reasons I enjoy DR. Would I welcome a more robust game that was actually fun to play ATK? Definitely. For all guilds.
__________________________________________________________________
Come to TF! We're not always doing business, but we're always open!
__________________________________________________________________
Come to TF! We're not always doing business, but we're always open!
BENNETTJ13
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 02:09 PM CDT
Don't misunderstand, I don't mind having to leave combat. Not at all. I leave to train athletics, mech and several other skills. But when I have to focus hours of a day to a skill that isn't fun, and is more like work... well... that's the opposite of why I play. I'd simply rather that the game remain fun. Being able to choose what kind of guilded Thief you want to be goes a long way towards that for me, and I'm sure several others would enjoy it as well. There's not really a precedent for it because as a guild, Thieves are kinda one off in that regard. There is no other guild that has has many skills that DEFINE their guild. While rangers and necros are both survival prime, no one says "I've got to run to find the locksmiths!" in reference to them. If someone want's something stolen, they come to us. If someone wants to RP a discreet killing, they come to us. It's our wheelhouse. When you want a class, you go to a location, you don't care what guild is teaching, regardless if they are lore prime or not. I care that they know more and can teach. I've not suggested anything to detract from anyone elses enjoyment. I've just made suggestions of my own. If you can't see that, sorry bout ya.
The only real argument anyone has provided against my idea is "well because it's the thieves guild". That doesn't work for me. We have more combat abilities than Barbs. Our toolkit is pretty damned robust in regards to far more than just stealing. It's a role playing game, and it's about freedom. I'm just asking that my hard req acknowledge the variety within my diverse guild. My suggestion merely allows someone to play your character how they want. It's not OP, it's not detracting from anyone else. What is the harm in taking the top skill as your hard req on locks, stealing, or bs? Even if it's far fetched in the GM's eyes, I'm going to fight for it. It's better for the whole. I don't know why any would argue against that. It just seems obtuse. Unless it's some personal thing, in which case, oh well.
And Samsaren, I'm curious what is more annoying than stealing? In my experience and most any other thief I've talked to, everything else is pretty much either a cakewalk or a minor inconvenience in comparison.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
The only real argument anyone has provided against my idea is "well because it's the thieves guild". That doesn't work for me. We have more combat abilities than Barbs. Our toolkit is pretty damned robust in regards to far more than just stealing. It's a role playing game, and it's about freedom. I'm just asking that my hard req acknowledge the variety within my diverse guild. My suggestion merely allows someone to play your character how they want. It's not OP, it's not detracting from anyone else. What is the harm in taking the top skill as your hard req on locks, stealing, or bs? Even if it's far fetched in the GM's eyes, I'm going to fight for it. It's better for the whole. I don't know why any would argue against that. It just seems obtuse. Unless it's some personal thing, in which case, oh well.
And Samsaren, I'm curious what is more annoying than stealing? In my experience and most any other thief I've talked to, everything else is pretty much either a cakewalk or a minor inconvenience in comparison.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
DINERGRRL
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 02:26 PM CDT
>Which skills are more annoying than stealing?
Off the top of my head? Any of the crafting skills. Not because of the difficulty, per se, but just the shear volume of crap you have to tote around. The weight of some of the things is maddening (looking at you, 100 stone strips and omg remedies)
Any "more annoying" skill is going to be personal preference, though.
Off the top of my head? Any of the crafting skills. Not because of the difficulty, per se, but just the shear volume of crap you have to tote around. The weight of some of the things is maddening (looking at you, 100 stone strips and omg remedies)
Any "more annoying" skill is going to be personal preference, though.
VOLCANUS
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 02:36 PM CDT
I can see that, and it too takes a long time to level; however, to do thievery, you still have to make a trip to the vault, in the right city, before you run around to all of the other cities. Add to that no option to train this elsewhere (even by lugging around a lot of crap) and, in my opinion, you have a more cumbersome skill.
NINEVAH1
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 02:48 PM CDT
Since the conversation has been revolving around required skills and no guild is required to train any crafting skill, I don't see how they pertain to the conversation.
That aside I still train every crafting skill (including Remedies) by choice and I still find writing/maintaining a stealing script far more annoying.
That aside I still train every crafting skill (including Remedies) by choice and I still find writing/maintaining a stealing script far more annoying.
THAYET
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 02:53 PM CDT
Why do you have to go to your vault, exactly?
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
Thayet
Twitter: @thayelf
Tumblr: thayette.tumblr.com
DR-SSRA
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 02:53 PM CDT
Folks, we're going off the rails today. Yesterday had some great feedback and suggestions.
Let's try to refocus the discussion on Thievery, its application, feasibility, and use in DR.
/salute
-Ssra
Let's try to refocus the discussion on Thievery, its application, feasibility, and use in DR.
/salute
-Ssra
BLUEFROG99
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 04:39 PM CDT
Suggestion: Get rid of critical failure on thefts. Why am I getting arrested in the Arthe dairy. Some overzealous town guard just happened to be in for a wheel of cheese? Pfft.
BADGOPHER
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 05:33 PM CDT
>We are the thieves guild, not assassins guild.
The pedantic definition of 'paladin' is 'a member of Charlemagne's court'.
Arguing that guild-name has anything to do with guild reality is, without hedging, stupid.
Unless you also think the barbarian guild is full of nothing but Gauls.
Saying thieves must steal because 20 years ago the developers had a terrible design concept isn't doing us any favors. The thieves guild has always been a rogues guild.
The pedantic definition of 'paladin' is 'a member of Charlemagne's court'.
Arguing that guild-name has anything to do with guild reality is, without hedging, stupid.
Unless you also think the barbarian guild is full of nothing but Gauls.
Saying thieves must steal because 20 years ago the developers had a terrible design concept isn't doing us any favors. The thieves guild has always been a rogues guild.
VOLCANUS
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 05:56 PM CDT
> Why do you have to go to your vault, exactly?
Because my thief isn't big enough to stick hundreds of stones of armor and weapons into my pack and not have a burden.
ABSOLON
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 06:17 PM CDT
<<Because my thief isn't big enough to stick hundreds of stones of armor and weapons into my pack and not have a burden.
Buy a deed packet from any of the crafting societies and deed them. Costs a silver or so per deed, but it saves a lot of weight.
PUSH <item> WITH PACKET to deed it, and when you want to retrieve it just TAP DEED.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Buy a deed packet from any of the crafting societies and deed them. Costs a silver or so per deed, but it saves a lot of weight.
PUSH <item> WITH PACKET to deed it, and when you want to retrieve it just TAP DEED.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
WILLARDR
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 06:20 PM CDT
>Let's try to refocus the discussion on Thievery, its application, feasibility, and use in DR.
A possible addition in contacts to assist with marking. With the timer on mark and sometimes a lot of items in quite a few shops a contact mark option (with a cooldown) might assist people in figuring out what items to mark.
CONTACT MARK (SHOP NAME) Sends your contact to the specified shop and they return with information about what item might be in your best interest to mark.
Put this on a cooldown and have it figure your difficulty level based on skills and stats then give it a +/- degree of inaccuracy. Your own marking should be more accurate this would just be a way to help identify what items you might should be marking.
Give this a chance to outright fail. For the coin cost could even go as far as having different pay tiers as well. If your contact cases out the place for you and you only palmed him the a few coppers he might just rat you out if he gets caught. The more you pay the more security you could count on from this contact (Never 100%). If you get ratted on you will have to deal with the justice system.
A possible addition in contacts to assist with marking. With the timer on mark and sometimes a lot of items in quite a few shops a contact mark option (with a cooldown) might assist people in figuring out what items to mark.
CONTACT MARK (SHOP NAME) Sends your contact to the specified shop and they return with information about what item might be in your best interest to mark.
Put this on a cooldown and have it figure your difficulty level based on skills and stats then give it a +/- degree of inaccuracy. Your own marking should be more accurate this would just be a way to help identify what items you might should be marking.
Give this a chance to outright fail. For the coin cost could even go as far as having different pay tiers as well. If your contact cases out the place for you and you only palmed him the a few coppers he might just rat you out if he gets caught. The more you pay the more security you could count on from this contact (Never 100%). If you get ratted on you will have to deal with the justice system.
VOLCANUS
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 06:24 PM CDT
> PUSH <item> WITH PACKET to deed it, and when you want to retrieve it just TAP DEED.
I had no idea you could do that. Thanks!
DR-SSRA
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 06:48 PM CDT
> A possible addition in contacts to assist with marking.
Hey, I like this. This is an avenue worth exploring. In what ways can contacts be utilized (based on your skill / level) to "do things" for you ?
I'm not suggesting remote pilfering or anything like that but something that contacts may do to contest (and possibly teach) skills while performing a service within scope of the ability.
/salute
-Ssra
Hey, I like this. This is an avenue worth exploring. In what ways can contacts be utilized (based on your skill / level) to "do things" for you ?
I'm not suggesting remote pilfering or anything like that but something that contacts may do to contest (and possibly teach) skills while performing a service within scope of the ability.
/salute
-Ssra
ABSOLON
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 07:03 PM CDT
<<I'm not suggesting remote pilfering or anything like that but something that contacts may do to contest (and possibly teach) skills while performing a service within scope of the ability.
Maybe combine the task and contact mark into another option? E.g.:
CONTACT MARK <shop> - functions as the above suggestion as a way to determine a useful steal for exp item
CONTACT CASE <shop> - returns a more challenging item than MARK to steal from the store and for a short time afterwards if you steal said item you get a monetary reward for it when binning it in addition to a larger than normal rep gain. Has a cooldown timer of some sort to prevent endless spamming. Possibly built into the CASE attempt itself. E.g. it takes 20-30 minutes for your contact to case the joint or something similar.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Maybe combine the task and contact mark into another option? E.g.:
CONTACT MARK <shop> - functions as the above suggestion as a way to determine a useful steal for exp item
CONTACT CASE <shop> - returns a more challenging item than MARK to steal from the store and for a short time afterwards if you steal said item you get a monetary reward for it when binning it in addition to a larger than normal rep gain. Has a cooldown timer of some sort to prevent endless spamming. Possibly built into the CASE attempt itself. E.g. it takes 20-30 minutes for your contact to case the joint or something similar.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
ABSOLON
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 07:07 PM CDT
<<I had no idea you could do that. Thanks!
I forgot to note that it only works with crafted items.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
I forgot to note that it only works with crafted items.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
WILLARDR
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 07:07 PM CDT
>I understand the downtime can be frustrating and that the initial few ranks can be difficult since the Guild Hall isn't a viable place to learn it these days
A thievery trainer present within the guild to help guide young members and offer occasional assistance to the more advanced masters of the art.
You also see *legendary trainer (insert name). Put these NPCs in areas to offer a different way to gain some thievery exp and to promote use of the guild halls.
ask legendary trainer about thievery
(Blah) looks you over quickly then begins to lecture you at length over the best ways to get your hands into other peoples pockets without them even noticing.
Have this operate sort of like teaching except that the exp gain is greater. To offset this put a cooldown on useage. So if they can teach you to say to 10/34 within 120 seconds they will not offer more insight to you for 10 minutes. It could be gated many different ways. They could "lock" you in say 15 or 20 minutes of listening to them but then will not teach you again for 24 hours. Or they might not lecture you at all if you have any thievery exp in your pool. It should be gated so that this does not become the "primary" way to learn the skill but having something like this in place might invite people to start visiting the guild more often.
They should offer both examples and practice attemts. This would get the PC involved more than just sitting there. They might show different examples of containers and how best to get inside them unnoticed, might even go as far as having you use mark therefor instructing you in the proper useage of your abilities. Whatever the case is just make it immersive not just pulsing they lecture you at great length.
Could possibly even charge for their lectures. This could be determined by your skill level so that at lower levels it is cheaper but at 1000 ranks they might want some plat.
A thievery trainer present within the guild to help guide young members and offer occasional assistance to the more advanced masters of the art.
You also see *legendary trainer (insert name). Put these NPCs in areas to offer a different way to gain some thievery exp and to promote use of the guild halls.
ask legendary trainer about thievery
(Blah) looks you over quickly then begins to lecture you at length over the best ways to get your hands into other peoples pockets without them even noticing.
Have this operate sort of like teaching except that the exp gain is greater. To offset this put a cooldown on useage. So if they can teach you to say to 10/34 within 120 seconds they will not offer more insight to you for 10 minutes. It could be gated many different ways. They could "lock" you in say 15 or 20 minutes of listening to them but then will not teach you again for 24 hours. Or they might not lecture you at all if you have any thievery exp in your pool. It should be gated so that this does not become the "primary" way to learn the skill but having something like this in place might invite people to start visiting the guild more often.
They should offer both examples and practice attemts. This would get the PC involved more than just sitting there. They might show different examples of containers and how best to get inside them unnoticed, might even go as far as having you use mark therefor instructing you in the proper useage of your abilities. Whatever the case is just make it immersive not just pulsing they lecture you at great length.
Could possibly even charge for their lectures. This could be determined by your skill level so that at lower levels it is cheaper but at 1000 ranks they might want some plat.
WILLARDR
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 07:34 PM CDT
>Hey, I like this. This is an avenue worth exploring. In what ways can contacts be utilized (based on your skill / level) to "do things" for you ?
One idea I have been tossing around dealing with your earlier mention of heists, would be to utilize the task system for tie ins, then tie in contacts for gathering information. This could go as far as sending your contacts to other provinces to scope out a shipment and get some details, then you send them back after completeing someting within the task system and now they get more specifics.
This does not really tie into skills but level I could see unlocking some things. An example would be you inquire about a heist and get sent on a thief task then use your contacts to gather some information unlocking yet another task and so on.
So from beginning to end it would be like NPC tells you they have no idea what you are talking about. They are way too busy or upstanding to be involved in such a nefarious act. NPC sends you to deliver this note to this NPC (task system tie in), then you send a contact to gather some information (once they get back to you it unlocks the next part) so you get another thiefly task and while doing the task send out contacts which gathers more information. Whenever you have information return the NPC that started it all and tell them what you have learned. This could unlock the next stage of a heist.
Example of some hiest there are reports of the guards getting a shipment of new equipment. So we use contacts and some of the thief tasks to gather information. It turns out this is happening so you gather some more information and return to NPC with your findings. They send you out for another task while they begin to devolop a plan, so once you have enough information now you get sent to sabotage the shipment (maybe replaceing some weapons/armor with lessor quality stuff or simply planting in some junk swords or such) that is provided by the NPC who sent you. This would be to undermine the trust factor of ordering the guards equipment and such.
These kinds of things could get pretty large scale.
One idea I have been tossing around dealing with your earlier mention of heists, would be to utilize the task system for tie ins, then tie in contacts for gathering information. This could go as far as sending your contacts to other provinces to scope out a shipment and get some details, then you send them back after completeing someting within the task system and now they get more specifics.
This does not really tie into skills but level I could see unlocking some things. An example would be you inquire about a heist and get sent on a thief task then use your contacts to gather some information unlocking yet another task and so on.
So from beginning to end it would be like NPC tells you they have no idea what you are talking about. They are way too busy or upstanding to be involved in such a nefarious act. NPC sends you to deliver this note to this NPC (task system tie in), then you send a contact to gather some information (once they get back to you it unlocks the next part) so you get another thiefly task and while doing the task send out contacts which gathers more information. Whenever you have information return the NPC that started it all and tell them what you have learned. This could unlock the next stage of a heist.
Example of some hiest there are reports of the guards getting a shipment of new equipment. So we use contacts and some of the thief tasks to gather information. It turns out this is happening so you gather some more information and return to NPC with your findings. They send you out for another task while they begin to devolop a plan, so once you have enough information now you get sent to sabotage the shipment (maybe replaceing some weapons/armor with lessor quality stuff or simply planting in some junk swords or such) that is provided by the NPC who sent you. This would be to undermine the trust factor of ordering the guards equipment and such.
These kinds of things could get pretty large scale.
WILLARDR
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 07:41 PM CDT
>CONTACT MARK <shop> - functions as the above suggestion as a way to determine a useful steal for exp item
>CONTACT CASE <shop> - returns a more challenging item than MARK to steal from the store and for a short time >afterwards if you steal said item you get a monetary reward for it when binning it in addition to a larger than >normal rep gain. Has a cooldown timer of some sort to prevent endless spamming. Possibly built into the CASE >attempt itself. E.g. it takes 20-30 minutes for your contact to case the joint or something similar.
I can't seem to find the like button.
>CONTACT CASE <shop> - returns a more challenging item than MARK to steal from the store and for a short time >afterwards if you steal said item you get a monetary reward for it when binning it in addition to a larger than >normal rep gain. Has a cooldown timer of some sort to prevent endless spamming. Possibly built into the CASE >attempt itself. E.g. it takes 20-30 minutes for your contact to case the joint or something similar.
I can't seem to find the like button.
VOLCANUS
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 07:53 PM CDT
In addition to the others,
CONTACT BRIBE - Give the contact a coin. If you get caught within the city limits that you bribed them then they take the rap for you. Contact re-use timer (in that city) if your contact is arrested.
CONTACT TRAIN - You decide to help your contact, show them the ropes. You get more stealing experience than you normally would. Requires a certain level of confidence.
CONTACT GUARD - The contact acts as lookout, warning you if you were going to be caught. Maybe pulling your hand away, pretending to shake it or something. Hinders confidence more as you screwed up in front of your crew.
CONTACT DISTRACT - The contact distracts the proprietor. You get one free +1 steal on an item without raising the difficulty (based on the last time you stole, so use this to clean up in a shop).
CONTACT PREPARE <item> - You prepare an item for your contact to steal. You get a small amount of stealing experience, and your contact steals it when you leave the shop. You can prepare multiple items for even more experience, but your contact could would be more likely to be arrested. Same re-use timer on bribe.
The idea is that you're a kingpin. You have to watch your goons to make sure they don't stab you in the back, but you have goons for a reason.
SLHUBBARD
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 09:47 PM CDT
What about a work order-esque system?
You speak with a NPC in town who's got a "client" that needs help with something.
You choose the difficulty of the task. Each tier of difficulty has a commensurate cool-down and exp award.
You take care of the something, head back to the NPC with evidence of your success. Top-tier difficulty tasks would work like research, some Cleric rituals, etc. where you get a half-full pool of exp with a large cool-down.
Tasks could involve simple things like stealing something off a randomly-generated NPC, more complex tasks such as stealing a special item from a shop (gotta sneak in the back using Athletics and Stealth), to breaking-and-entering type tasks that require Athletics, Stealth, and Locksmithing checks.
GENT
You speak with a NPC in town who's got a "client" that needs help with something.
You choose the difficulty of the task. Each tier of difficulty has a commensurate cool-down and exp award.
You take care of the something, head back to the NPC with evidence of your success. Top-tier difficulty tasks would work like research, some Cleric rituals, etc. where you get a half-full pool of exp with a large cool-down.
Tasks could involve simple things like stealing something off a randomly-generated NPC, more complex tasks such as stealing a special item from a shop (gotta sneak in the back using Athletics and Stealth), to breaking-and-entering type tasks that require Athletics, Stealth, and Locksmithing checks.
GENT
DR-SSRA
Re: Thievery
09/30/2015 11:01 PM CDT
Many of these are great suggestions. I've taken note and will share with other GMs.
Stay tuned. Things are churning a bit.
/salute
-Ssra
Stay tuned. Things are churning a bit.
/salute
-Ssra
ILLIENA
Re: Thievery
10/01/2015 01:05 AM CDT
> What about a work order-esque system?
If you want to get ambitious with this, maybe let the thief "call in favors" (spend reputation) to have their contacts help out. Something like arranging a cart accident in the street to cause a commotion. Successfully completing the task would then improve the thief's rep. So there'd be the decision of "do I do a harder task for better exp and payoff but I need to burn rep to complete it, or do I do an easier task to improve my rep but otherwise get smaller rewards?"
If you want to get ambitious with this, maybe let the thief "call in favors" (spend reputation) to have their contacts help out. Something like arranging a cart accident in the street to cause a commotion. Successfully completing the task would then improve the thief's rep. So there'd be the decision of "do I do a harder task for better exp and payoff but I need to burn rep to complete it, or do I do an easier task to improve my rep but otherwise get smaller rewards?"
