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OSUS
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 12:32 PM CDT
My thoughts:
Point 1: With the snails pace that backstab seems to train, I tend to lock my melee weapons LONG before I can get BS to locked, so I personally have had no issue with the increased weapon requirements. With the grandfathering that is going to happen, I'm actually looking to gain about 70 ranks in my third weapon which is actually a nice little bonus, albeit at the cost of a bit of my bonus pool. For the folks that use non-BS weapons as their primaries I suppose this could be a little bit of a hurdle, but if the learning rates are adjusted after 3.0 like most people assume they're going to be I dont think you'll run into huge issues there either. All in all I see it as a wash.
Point 2: I think of the 10 we're going to have available to us, 8 of them seem perfectly IC/In-Theme with the Thief guild. Trainability is nice, but I think they looked at the skillset placements and went 'what would a thief do?' and less of 'what does the average DR player want to script with the highest efficiency?' during their decision making process. Evasion, Perception, Stealth, Locksmithing, Thievery(or Guile I hope), First Aid, Outdoorsmanship, and Backstab all fit really really well into what I personally believe the Thief skillset is so those are likely the ones I'll focus on.
Point 3: The difference between us and Rangers is two fold... 1. They get raccoons, we get pregnant elothean women and homeless halflings for followers. 2. They get lost all the time, we get locked up all the time. While this might seem like a bit of a wash, we dont have to worry about not knowing where we are unless of course you get thrown into the dungeon of Theren Keep and are looking for your equipment. Rangers, on the other hand, are constantly having to run in circles through any number of random 'trails' as they call them, in the hopes that they'll pop out somewhere that has a signpost or a marker of some sort telling them where they're not-so-lost at. I think we win #2 as well.
tl;dr I think we got a pretty decent look as far as the 3.0 stuff goes, even if no-one wants to touch the guild as a whole with a 10-foot pole. Some of the guilds seem to be taking their changes pretty hard and have some legitimate issues with things. For as many thieves as there are out there, I'd expect a fairly decent uproar if the perception was that we were somehow being slighted.
-O
LEEJ82
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 01:20 PM CDT
<<First of all, it seems that im the only one who is a bit concerned about the new weapon requirements. I have to say that the primary weapon requirement seems a bit steep to go with the nature and ways of our guild. I dont exactly know about the new requirements for all other guilds but as far as the current ones go, it seems that our weapon will be in line with Barbarian armor requirements (320 vs 290 at level 80). Which means that we will be spending about as much time in combat as Barbarians now. Although, i suppose i cant really complain much, since you can never have enough weapon skill in this game.
To be blunt, this may be because you're the only one who doesn't understand them. This isn't a linear one-for-one time swap moving from primary to secondary tier. Barbarians will still be outpacing every other guild for time spent in combat, don't worry. This is primarily due to the fact that their secondary requirements can be trained in parallel to their primary requirements and their tertiary requirements may as well not exist for all the challenge they present (also, they can be met while in combat). As a Thief you can a) lock your weapon skills faster and b) do other things while waiting for those skills to drain. You'll also have to spend time outside of combat as a Thief in order to circle, and it would be unfair to Socharis and the other GMs to pretend they don't realize that. However, Thieves are Weapons secondary and thus need to have real, substantive Weapon requirements in order to justify that placement.
<<The ones that are being removed have to be replaced by something that a Ranger would train.
You can easily train Evasion, Perception, Stealth, First Aid, Skinning, and Backstab while in combat. Which means you only really have a choice between Athletics, Locksmithing, Thievery, and Outdoorsmanship. Outdoorsmanship looks like it will be laughably easy to train, and Athletics really isn't that hard to train (and will be even more convenient to train post 3.0). Thievery and Locksmithing will likely require significant improvement in both learning rate and usefulness to convince people to train them for a significant survival requirement.
<<Also with the "Multi Opponent" skill being moved into "Defending", under a tertiary skillset for us, im afraid that we are going to have difficult time getting the full potential out of combat training anymore.
The MO penalties are being re-assessed and corrected. Part of the problem with the system currently is that it hard caps in effectiveness at around 600 ranks, and the only way to improve it beyond that is with MO boosters. So yes, those ranks past 600 really don't matter.
<<What is the difference between us and the rangers anyway?
You tend to lose bonus while hunting, while Rangers tend to gain it.
To be blunt, this may be because you're the only one who doesn't understand them. This isn't a linear one-for-one time swap moving from primary to secondary tier. Barbarians will still be outpacing every other guild for time spent in combat, don't worry. This is primarily due to the fact that their secondary requirements can be trained in parallel to their primary requirements and their tertiary requirements may as well not exist for all the challenge they present (also, they can be met while in combat). As a Thief you can a) lock your weapon skills faster and b) do other things while waiting for those skills to drain. You'll also have to spend time outside of combat as a Thief in order to circle, and it would be unfair to Socharis and the other GMs to pretend they don't realize that. However, Thieves are Weapons secondary and thus need to have real, substantive Weapon requirements in order to justify that placement.
<<The ones that are being removed have to be replaced by something that a Ranger would train.
You can easily train Evasion, Perception, Stealth, First Aid, Skinning, and Backstab while in combat. Which means you only really have a choice between Athletics, Locksmithing, Thievery, and Outdoorsmanship. Outdoorsmanship looks like it will be laughably easy to train, and Athletics really isn't that hard to train (and will be even more convenient to train post 3.0). Thievery and Locksmithing will likely require significant improvement in both learning rate and usefulness to convince people to train them for a significant survival requirement.
<<Also with the "Multi Opponent" skill being moved into "Defending", under a tertiary skillset for us, im afraid that we are going to have difficult time getting the full potential out of combat training anymore.
The MO penalties are being re-assessed and corrected. Part of the problem with the system currently is that it hard caps in effectiveness at around 600 ranks, and the only way to improve it beyond that is with MO boosters. So yes, those ranks past 600 really don't matter.
<<What is the difference between us and the rangers anyway?
You tend to lose bonus while hunting, while Rangers tend to gain it.
VOLCANUS
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 01:25 PM CDT
>> survival is the easiest of all the skills to train/script
Quick tangent, but I'm going to disagree with you here. Survival means you have to be where you can practice survival? There's not a whole lot of places that can teach you escaping. Disarm/lockpicking/skinning from the same mob, not always. Climbing and swimming are area specific, and can take a while to lock if using climb practice. Then there's skills like stealing. Bleh. I'd actually argue that armor, magic, and maybe lore are much easier to train for their respective guilds than survival. But to each their own.
DEFOL
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 02:25 PM CDT
Im glad you guys helped me to put all this into perspective since i obviously dont have any idea how other guild will be doing after these changes - apparently not much better off than us.
For me personally, i dont see First Aid as something i would even consider right now but i suppose Skinning is doable, although not very "thiefly".
<<However, Thieves are Weapons secondary and thus need to have real, substantive Weapon requirements in order to justify that placement.
Im really not advocating for more Lore requirements here but the same argument should go for Lore as well then but it its not exactly treated as such (290 primary weapon vs 200 primary lore at level 80). I suppose the fact that we have to train 3 Lores vs 2 Weapons makes up for some of it.
I really hope you're right about the MO being re-assessed. The way it affects the rate of learning now, i could see this as a problem in the long run.
For me personally, i dont see First Aid as something i would even consider right now but i suppose Skinning is doable, although not very "thiefly".
<<However, Thieves are Weapons secondary and thus need to have real, substantive Weapon requirements in order to justify that placement.
Im really not advocating for more Lore requirements here but the same argument should go for Lore as well then but it its not exactly treated as such (290 primary weapon vs 200 primary lore at level 80). I suppose the fact that we have to train 3 Lores vs 2 Weapons makes up for some of it.
I really hope you're right about the MO being re-assessed. The way it affects the rate of learning now, i could see this as a problem in the long run.
YAMCER
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 02:38 PM CDT
I'm in the situation right now that I need to back train up #8 first aid so I don't have bonus bits put into it. Once the new skills and reqs go live I'll replace first aid with skinning or athletics (probably skinning for alchemy). Otherwise all 7 of my other survivals were what I'd already trained.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
VOLCANUS
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 03:40 PM CDT
Why don't you start training up skinning so it takes the place as your 8th survival? I can see an argument for trying to arrange certain skills to use the bonus bits, but it feels more hassle than it's worth.
URUTU
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 03:48 PM CDT
<<There's not a whole lot of places that can teach you escaping.>>
This is true of course, but there is one bright spot. If you're near leth or can get in that area without too much hassle, you can train escaping in kartais. I just hit my goal of 400 and dropped it off my exercise program to move on to other things. I never checked pulses or kept time, but it seems to be locking about as quickly as it did the first time I went in there. I really don't think kartais escaping is capped.
<<Skinning is doable, although not very "thiefly".>>
I disagree.
<<I'll replace first aid with skinning or athletics (probably skinning for alchemy).>>
This is how I see it as well. If a thief chooses poison, they will almost assuredly need skinning to be able to harvest the necessary bodyparts from venomous critters, same as now. As a thief who has dabbled in poison making, I'll be majorly (that pun never gets old) disappointed if toadstools and poisonous plants aren't used in the system. Of course the thief will need good outdoorsmanship to be able to forage what s/he needs.
Swimming is just a general movement skill. I don't think there ever was a good reason to disallow us to circle with it. How can I penetrate the castle to assassinate the king, or plunder his treasure, if I drown in the moat because I can't swim? And first aid is just good all around for everyone.
Kaxis
>A dobek moruryn sits perfectly still.
>The dobek moruryn crumbles apart.
You say, "Hey, use it or lose it, buddy."
This is true of course, but there is one bright spot. If you're near leth or can get in that area without too much hassle, you can train escaping in kartais. I just hit my goal of 400 and dropped it off my exercise program to move on to other things. I never checked pulses or kept time, but it seems to be locking about as quickly as it did the first time I went in there. I really don't think kartais escaping is capped.
<<Skinning is doable, although not very "thiefly".>>
I disagree.
<<I'll replace first aid with skinning or athletics (probably skinning for alchemy).>>
This is how I see it as well. If a thief chooses poison, they will almost assuredly need skinning to be able to harvest the necessary bodyparts from venomous critters, same as now. As a thief who has dabbled in poison making, I'll be majorly (that pun never gets old) disappointed if toadstools and poisonous plants aren't used in the system. Of course the thief will need good outdoorsmanship to be able to forage what s/he needs.
Swimming is just a general movement skill. I don't think there ever was a good reason to disallow us to circle with it. How can I penetrate the castle to assassinate the king, or plunder his treasure, if I drown in the moat because I can't swim? And first aid is just good all around for everyone.
Kaxis
>A dobek moruryn sits perfectly still.
>The dobek moruryn crumbles apart.
You say, "Hey, use it or lose it, buddy."
YAMCER
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 04:08 PM CDT
<<Why don't you start training up skinning so it takes the place as your 8th survival?>>
@ 117th circle, 8th survival needs to be 271 ranks. My first aid is at 244, Skinning is at 97. So, 27 ranks is easier to get in the short term, while 174 ranks will be easier to get with bonus pool bits.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
@ 117th circle, 8th survival needs to be 271 ranks. My first aid is at 244, Skinning is at 97. So, 27 ranks is easier to get in the short term, while 174 ranks will be easier to get with bonus pool bits.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
VOLCANUS
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 04:21 PM CDT
>> @ 117th circle, 8th survival needs to be 271 ranks. My first aid is at 244, Skinning is at 97. So, 27 ranks is easier to get in the short term, while 174 ranks will be easier to get with bonus pool bits.
Makes sense.
SCHULTZS3
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/29/2012 11:45 PM CDT
>it seems that our weapon will be in line with Barbarian armor requirements (320 vs 290 at level 80). Which means that we will be spending about as much time in combat as Barbarians now.
That's a very...ODD analysis, since you seem to be overlooking the fact that a Barb has MUCH higher requirements in weapons. Sure, they move at primary rate, but there's more of them and they will still be possibly held back by armor, lest they overhunt.
If you wanted to compare things that way, why not compare Thief armor reqs to Barb armor reqs?
>Survival Primes and # of survivals.
I too am kind of concerned. I originally thought the reqs for Top 8 Skills would drop down to 6 or so and Top 6 Skills would drop down to 4. This didn't happen, at least not for anyone's Primary skillset. EVERYONE's primary skillset got more skills added on as reqs, and/or the numbers got higher, or at least stayed the same. Barbs dropped a meaningless 5th weapon and picked up a Mastery req that matches their Primary Weapon req, and their parry req and all their other weapon reqs got harder. Paladins went from basically just 1 armor to needing 2 armors, shield, AND defending. Magic primes got a lot more skills they'll have to train (remains to be seen if it'll be harder to train than just 4 REALLY high skills+TM). Empaths and Traders got their typical 2 Hard coded skills to remain the same, but more Lore ranks tacked on besides those (The old Total Lore reqs were a joke anyways given over half of it was made up of aforementioned 2 Hard coded reqs). Bards MAYbe got easier on the Lore side now, since they used to require 6 lores, and for now, will need 5 till Bardic Lore hashes out and gets grandfathered.
Thieves/Rangers will need 8 survivals and have 10 to choose from. Necros will need 7 and have 9 to choose from. It does make all 3 survival primes stamp out rather identical out of the molds, particularly since certain survivals are just naturally going to be higher than others. Who has skinning higher than evasion? Anyone?
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
That's a very...ODD analysis, since you seem to be overlooking the fact that a Barb has MUCH higher requirements in weapons. Sure, they move at primary rate, but there's more of them and they will still be possibly held back by armor, lest they overhunt.
If you wanted to compare things that way, why not compare Thief armor reqs to Barb armor reqs?
>Survival Primes and # of survivals.
I too am kind of concerned. I originally thought the reqs for Top 8 Skills would drop down to 6 or so and Top 6 Skills would drop down to 4. This didn't happen, at least not for anyone's Primary skillset. EVERYONE's primary skillset got more skills added on as reqs, and/or the numbers got higher, or at least stayed the same. Barbs dropped a meaningless 5th weapon and picked up a Mastery req that matches their Primary Weapon req, and their parry req and all their other weapon reqs got harder. Paladins went from basically just 1 armor to needing 2 armors, shield, AND defending. Magic primes got a lot more skills they'll have to train (remains to be seen if it'll be harder to train than just 4 REALLY high skills+TM). Empaths and Traders got their typical 2 Hard coded skills to remain the same, but more Lore ranks tacked on besides those (The old Total Lore reqs were a joke anyways given over half of it was made up of aforementioned 2 Hard coded reqs). Bards MAYbe got easier on the Lore side now, since they used to require 6 lores, and for now, will need 5 till Bardic Lore hashes out and gets grandfathered.
Thieves/Rangers will need 8 survivals and have 10 to choose from. Necros will need 7 and have 9 to choose from. It does make all 3 survival primes stamp out rather identical out of the molds, particularly since certain survivals are just naturally going to be higher than others. Who has skinning higher than evasion? Anyone?
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
DEFOL
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/30/2012 03:22 AM CDT
<That's a very...ODD analysis, since you seem to be overlooking the fact that a Barb has MUCH higher requirements in weapons. Sure, they move at primary rate, but there's more of them and they will still be possibly held back by armor, lest they overhunt.
Im of course overdramatizing the situation a bit but all this applies for us also. We're going to be held back by combat support skills that we learn at tertiary rate while training the one Weapon. I suppose not all of us train Shield like i do but in my case my Primary Weapon is only about 30 ranks ahead of my Shield. Otherwise i enjoy being able to take on 3 critters right after moving to the next hunting area. In general im not so much worried about being held back by the Weapon skill itself but by everything that comes with it (with MO moving to tertiary as well).
Also talking about skinning, i dont know if this is the right place or time to ask this but along with lockpick carving going to be available for Hunters, does anyone know if the ability to "arrange all" will be available for us?
Defol
Im of course overdramatizing the situation a bit but all this applies for us also. We're going to be held back by combat support skills that we learn at tertiary rate while training the one Weapon. I suppose not all of us train Shield like i do but in my case my Primary Weapon is only about 30 ranks ahead of my Shield. Otherwise i enjoy being able to take on 3 critters right after moving to the next hunting area. In general im not so much worried about being held back by the Weapon skill itself but by everything that comes with it (with MO moving to tertiary as well).
Also talking about skinning, i dont know if this is the right place or time to ask this but along with lockpick carving going to be available for Hunters, does anyone know if the ability to "arrange all" will be available for us?
Defol
YAMCER
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/30/2012 03:37 AM CDT
<<does anyone know if the ability to "arrange all" will be available for us?>>
Already is, just need to take the tech from the Outfitting tree.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Already is, just need to take the tech from the Outfitting tree.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
RAIST
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/30/2012 03:38 AM CDT
>does anyone know if the ability to "arrange all" will be available for us?
ARRANGE ALL is available to anyone willing to put a technique into it.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
ARRANGE ALL is available to anyone willing to put a technique into it.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
NINEVAH1
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/30/2012 05:19 AM CDT
>>We're going to be held back by combat support skills that we learn at tertiary rate while training the one Weapon.
I've never had a problem with this. I admit I train combat more like a barb than the typical thief, but my Leather is the exact same as my highest weapon. My shield and parry are within 10 ranks of each other also. My survivals have raced ahead of my combats, but it has never hindered my progression.
I've never had a problem with this. I admit I train combat more like a barb than the typical thief, but my Leather is the exact same as my highest weapon. My shield and parry are within 10 ranks of each other also. My survivals have raced ahead of my combats, but it has never hindered my progression.
PHANT0MR0GUE
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/30/2012 09:13 AM CDT
>>I'm also a little worried about the overall choice selection with survival prime guilds that are required to train about 7-8 of them when there are only going to be TEN after the combine.
This is my only real concern about the new EXP/Requirements updates. The VAST majority of people will have the same 8 skills (Because those 8 would be easiest to train). And that's across all the Survival Primary Guilds. The only differece is Magics (Khri vs Spells vs Pets/Risen). I just don't see where the homogenization of the Guilds and skill sets to train is a good thing.
But, will have to wait and see.
This is my only real concern about the new EXP/Requirements updates. The VAST majority of people will have the same 8 skills (Because those 8 would be easiest to train). And that's across all the Survival Primary Guilds. The only differece is Magics (Khri vs Spells vs Pets/Risen). I just don't see where the homogenization of the Guilds and skill sets to train is a good thing.
But, will have to wait and see.
MARGASH
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/30/2012 09:33 AM CDT
>The VAST majority of people will have the same 8 skills (Because those 8 would be easiest to train).
stalking was pretty easy to train, and it's not an option anymore
also, foraging is pretty easy to train, but it wasn't an option previously, but will be under the new system
so yeah i disagree
stalking was pretty easy to train, and it's not an option anymore
also, foraging is pretty easy to train, but it wasn't an option previously, but will be under the new system
so yeah i disagree
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/30/2012 09:35 AM CDT
<<The VAST majority of people will have the same 8 skills (Because those 8 would be easiest to train)>>
people who have accumulated 500 plus ranks in any given skill and haven't really trained others aren't going to all of a sudden change their survivals overnight. My thief will still use stealing and stealth and locksmithing <as her top 3> to circle, my necromancer will still use FA and evasion and stealth as her top 3, and my ranger will most likely use perception, evasion and scouting ? as his top 3. So there will still be varieties across guilds based on what they've traditionally trained. <although admittedly i haven't taken a look at the ranger folders, my ranger char is still in mothballs, haven't trained him in forever. :-)
[Uzmam] "<chat>" "what you seem to not realize is that I'd love for Uzmam to be outed. That way she could have Divult finally apprentice her and I could learn those slips"
people who have accumulated 500 plus ranks in any given skill and haven't really trained others aren't going to all of a sudden change their survivals overnight. My thief will still use stealing and stealth and locksmithing <as her top 3> to circle, my necromancer will still use FA and evasion and stealth as her top 3, and my ranger will most likely use perception, evasion and scouting ? as his top 3. So there will still be varieties across guilds based on what they've traditionally trained. <although admittedly i haven't taken a look at the ranger folders, my ranger char is still in mothballs, haven't trained him in forever. :-)
[Uzmam] "<chat>" "what you seem to not realize is that I'd love for Uzmam to be outed. That way she could have Divult finally apprentice her and I could learn those slips"
LEEJ82
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/30/2012 09:54 AM CDT
<<stalking was pretty easy to train, and it's not an option anymore
<<also, foraging is pretty easy to train, but it wasn't an option previously, but will be under the new system
<<so yeah i disagree
Missing the point. Thievery and Locksmithing are the two most painful Survival skills to train (not counting Guild skills). Which means people are likely to gravitate towards Skinning and Outdoorsmanship to meet the requirements, as they're both relatively simple and convenient to train (and backtrain).
<<also, foraging is pretty easy to train, but it wasn't an option previously, but will be under the new system
<<so yeah i disagree
Missing the point. Thievery and Locksmithing are the two most painful Survival skills to train (not counting Guild skills). Which means people are likely to gravitate towards Skinning and Outdoorsmanship to meet the requirements, as they're both relatively simple and convenient to train (and backtrain).
MARGASH
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/31/2012 01:16 PM CDT
>Missing the point. Thievery and Locksmithing are the two most painful Survival skills to train (not counting Guild skills). Which means people are likely to gravitate towards Skinning and Outdoorsmanship to meet the requirements, as they're both relatively simple and convenient to train (and backtrain).
i understand now. i don't think there are 8 survivals that are clearly easier, with thievery/locksmithing being harder,
first aid can be tough if you don't have a gimp to keep bleeders. compendiums cap pretty low (600 or 700 ranks?).
athletics requires a specific area to train, but i agree climbing as it is now can be trained well (less so on swimming, but since they're combining it doesn't matter).
locksmithing does present some danger, and I agree it's generally harder than skinning, which would be the best comparable. That said, locksmithing is by far the best method of training perception that i know of. i train boxes just to keep perception moving, and i have no problem circle with locks/disarm. You can also train them much higher than skinning (under the old system...not sure with new skinning), and you get a decent amount of exp per unit of roundtime (mind lock decently quickly).
and if you believe the one poster in this forums that he can lock stealing in <6 minutes (he has provided zero support for his claims), and at high ranks (I don't think what he calls high ranks are very high, but whatever), then thievery isn't bad either.
I do agree that having to train 8 of 10 is a bit much, and cuts down on variety somewhat, but I disagree there is a clear cut 8 easiest skills. There will also be variety within the 8 skills (i.e. foraging primary, or stealth primary, or evasion, etc.)
i understand now. i don't think there are 8 survivals that are clearly easier, with thievery/locksmithing being harder,
first aid can be tough if you don't have a gimp to keep bleeders. compendiums cap pretty low (600 or 700 ranks?).
athletics requires a specific area to train, but i agree climbing as it is now can be trained well (less so on swimming, but since they're combining it doesn't matter).
locksmithing does present some danger, and I agree it's generally harder than skinning, which would be the best comparable. That said, locksmithing is by far the best method of training perception that i know of. i train boxes just to keep perception moving, and i have no problem circle with locks/disarm. You can also train them much higher than skinning (under the old system...not sure with new skinning), and you get a decent amount of exp per unit of roundtime (mind lock decently quickly).
and if you believe the one poster in this forums that he can lock stealing in <6 minutes (he has provided zero support for his claims), and at high ranks (I don't think what he calls high ranks are very high, but whatever), then thievery isn't bad either.
I do agree that having to train 8 of 10 is a bit much, and cuts down on variety somewhat, but I disagree there is a clear cut 8 easiest skills. There will also be variety within the 8 skills (i.e. foraging primary, or stealth primary, or evasion, etc.)
LEEJ82
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/31/2012 01:35 PM CDT
<<locksmithing does present some danger, and I agree it's generally harder than skinning, which would be the best comparable. That said, locksmithing is by far the best method of training perception that i know of. i train boxes just to keep perception moving, and i have no problem circle with locks/disarm. You can also train them much higher than skinning (under the old system...not sure with new skinning), and you get a decent amount of exp per unit of roundtime (mind lock decently quickly).
The danger of locksmithing isn't really the issue, but the inconvenience of it is. It's not like you can just no-look pop boxes (in combat) any more.
<<and if you believe the one poster in this forums that he can lock stealing in <6 minutes (he has provided zero support for his claims), and at high ranks (I don't think what he calls high ranks are very high, but whatever), then thievery isn't bad either.
I'm afraid I don't. It takes me Therenborough, Riverhaven, Crossing, and often enough Leth to lock Stealing at 530 ranks typically (which is really not much at all, considering). If I could lock Thievery in six minutes it'd stand a very good chance of remaining on my training list. It'd stand a very good chance of getting on everyone's training list, frankly.
The danger of locksmithing isn't really the issue, but the inconvenience of it is. It's not like you can just no-look pop boxes (in combat) any more.
<<and if you believe the one poster in this forums that he can lock stealing in <6 minutes (he has provided zero support for his claims), and at high ranks (I don't think what he calls high ranks are very high, but whatever), then thievery isn't bad either.
I'm afraid I don't. It takes me Therenborough, Riverhaven, Crossing, and often enough Leth to lock Stealing at 530 ranks typically (which is really not much at all, considering). If I could lock Thievery in six minutes it'd stand a very good chance of remaining on my training list. It'd stand a very good chance of getting on everyone's training list, frankly.
SCHULTZS3
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/31/2012 03:16 PM CDT
>I don't think there are 8 survivals that are clearly easier, with thievery/locksmithing being harder,
>first aid can be tough if you don't have a gimp to keep bleeders. compendiums cap pretty low (600 or 700 ranks?).
Every other survival is worlds easier to train than Thievery/locksmithing.
600-700 is PLENTY for talking about guild reqs, that would be fine for 6th, 7th, or 8th survival.
770 Evasion
730 Stealth
720 Backstab
720 Perception
640 Skinning
610 First Aid
570 Thievery
370 Athletics
That would be entirely reasonable to train as a Thief, and quite doable now. Could even replace Backstab with EZmode Outdoorsmanship because of time-to-lock concerns.
>if you believe the one poster in this forums that he can lock stealing in <6 minutes
I don't know of any skill that Guild has as Primary that can be locked in less than 6 minutes (without dying) outside of Empathy and Trading, and those under specific circumstances that can't be run endlessly. So yeah, I don't believe it either.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
>first aid can be tough if you don't have a gimp to keep bleeders. compendiums cap pretty low (600 or 700 ranks?).
Every other survival is worlds easier to train than Thievery/locksmithing.
600-700 is PLENTY for talking about guild reqs, that would be fine for 6th, 7th, or 8th survival.
770 Evasion
730 Stealth
720 Backstab
720 Perception
640 Skinning
610 First Aid
570 Thievery
370 Athletics
That would be entirely reasonable to train as a Thief, and quite doable now. Could even replace Backstab with EZmode Outdoorsmanship because of time-to-lock concerns.
>if you believe the one poster in this forums that he can lock stealing in <6 minutes
I don't know of any skill that Guild has as Primary that can be locked in less than 6 minutes (without dying) outside of Empathy and Trading, and those under specific circumstances that can't be run endlessly. So yeah, I don't believe it either.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
STAGURLEE
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/31/2012 08:04 PM CDT
May want to change your stealing list. I lock stealing at 560 between crossing and haven.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/31/2012 08:42 PM CDT
<<and if you believe the one poster in this forums that he can lock stealing in <6 minutes (he has provided zero support for his claims), and at high ranks (I don't think what he calls high ranks are very high, but whatever), then thievery isn't bad either.>>
Just because I was curious about this claim, I popped in and did my Muspar'i run. I hit 30 shops, 3 of which don't teach me, and it takes me 17 minutes to go thru my script. <it doesn't just steal, i hide in between and mark the merchandise as well.
Didn't lock it, but came pretty darn close.
Stealing: 626 00% very rapt (31/34)
Schvartzgonif
[Uzmam] "<chat>" "what you seem to not realize is that I'd love for Uzmam to be outed. That way she could have Divult finally apprentice her and I could learn those slips"
Just because I was curious about this claim, I popped in and did my Muspar'i run. I hit 30 shops, 3 of which don't teach me, and it takes me 17 minutes to go thru my script. <it doesn't just steal, i hide in between and mark the merchandise as well.
Didn't lock it, but came pretty darn close.
Stealing: 626 00% very rapt (31/34)
Schvartzgonif
[Uzmam] "<chat>" "what you seem to not realize is that I'd love for Uzmam to be outed. That way she could have Divult finally apprentice her and I could learn those slips"
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
03/31/2012 11:13 PM CDT
>Just because I was curious about this claim, I popped in and did my Muspar'i run. I hit 30 shops, 3 of which don't teach me, and it takes me 17 minutes to go thru my script. <it doesn't just steal, i hide in between and mark the merchandise as well.
I think part of the original unsubstantiated assertation was that he could lock stealing in under 6 minutes in Crossings or something silly.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
I think part of the original unsubstantiated assertation was that he could lock stealing in under 6 minutes in Crossings or something silly.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
MARGASH
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/01/2012 11:04 AM CDT
>17 minutes
>Stealing: 626 00% very rapt (31/34)
yeah I'd bet you could do it faster, too.
17 minutes vs. under 6 minutes is a big difference
>Stealing: 626 00% very rapt (31/34)
yeah I'd bet you could do it faster, too.
17 minutes vs. under 6 minutes is a big difference
MARGASH
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/01/2012 11:13 AM CDT
p.s.
For non-combat skills, going from 0 to 34...
10 minutes or less I considered to be excellent training.
10 to 15 minutes is still pretty good
15 to 20 minutes is getting slow
Much over 20 minutes is a pain in the butt. 25 minutes, for example, is rough.
I log when script changes from one section to another in the log window, so it's easy to see how much time is spent on different stuff. For example:
[08:50] Starting climbing
[08:59] Back in combat | LX 2 | LT 0 | BS 0 | Ev 0 | Per 22
[09:19] Opening boxes | LX 10 | LT 10 | BS 5 | Ev 1 | Per 18
etc.
Of course, all of this also depends on how many other skills you can train at the same time. Magic skills can be trained easily with about anything, whereas if you're using climb practice, it's completely different.
For non-combat skills, going from 0 to 34...
10 minutes or less I considered to be excellent training.
10 to 15 minutes is still pretty good
15 to 20 minutes is getting slow
Much over 20 minutes is a pain in the butt. 25 minutes, for example, is rough.
I log when script changes from one section to another in the log window, so it's easy to see how much time is spent on different stuff. For example:
[08:50] Starting climbing
[08:59] Back in combat | LX 2 | LT 0 | BS 0 | Ev 0 | Per 22
[09:19] Opening boxes | LX 10 | LT 10 | BS 5 | Ev 1 | Per 18
etc.
Of course, all of this also depends on how many other skills you can train at the same time. Magic skills can be trained easily with about anything, whereas if you're using climb practice, it's completely different.
STAGURLEE
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/02/2012 06:24 PM CDT
Just for giggles I timed a run today. This is with just hiding and stealing from Haven and Crossing, includes travel time.
[Script aborted! (Run time: 530 seconds): steal.cmd]
Stealing: 564 49% nearly locked (33/34) +0.03
22/34 is from Haven alone.
[Script aborted! (Run time: 530 seconds): steal.cmd]
Stealing: 564 49% nearly locked (33/34) +0.03
22/34 is from Haven alone.
DEFOL
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/10/2012 05:07 AM CDT
>This is with just hiding and stealing from Haven and Crossing, includes travel time. (Run time: 530 seconds)
Heaven seems very nice for stealing. Too bad i cant manage the swim between Haven and Zoluren.
It takes me around 20 minutes to complete my run in Crossing, Arthe Dale and Leth Deriel. The best i can do is about (30/34). I doubt i can even go this high in skill using this route but considering how hard stealing used to be for me before all of the changes im still quite happy with the results.
Heaven seems very nice for stealing. Too bad i cant manage the swim between Haven and Zoluren.
It takes me around 20 minutes to complete my run in Crossing, Arthe Dale and Leth Deriel. The best i can do is about (30/34). I doubt i can even go this high in skill using this route but considering how hard stealing used to be for me before all of the changes im still quite happy with the results.
VOLCANUS
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/10/2012 09:19 AM CDT
>> Heaven seems very nice for stealing.
Sure it may be easy to steal there, but I've heard of nasty punishments if caught.
Kidding aside, stealing/thievery really needs some buffs. Some in combat things maybe? Disarming or unbalancing a creature with your rapid movements, pick-pocket a mob (even if it's just for a spare copper or some foragable item. Imagine stealing plovik leaves and rocks from goblins. Hiding to hide and sneak up behind it. Tactics to get into position. Thievery to forage around in it's pockets. If caught, it gets a free attack.
Sure it may be easy to steal there, but I've heard of nasty punishments if caught.
Kidding aside, stealing/thievery really needs some buffs. Some in combat things maybe? Disarming or unbalancing a creature with your rapid movements, pick-pocket a mob (even if it's just for a spare copper or some foragable item. Imagine stealing plovik leaves and rocks from goblins. Hiding to hide and sneak up behind it. Tactics to get into position. Thievery to forage around in it's pockets. If caught, it gets a free attack.
DEFOL
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/11/2012 02:40 AM CDT
> Kidding aside, stealing/thievery really needs some buffs. Some in combat things maybe?
Or searching the corpse with an extra roundtime to find more loot afterwards. Us thieves, we know exactly all the nooks and crannies where one might hide some extra loot! Although, on the down side, im afraid that something like this would make everyone in Elanthia wanting to become thieves, in the sense of training the stealing skill.
Its most likely the limited usefulness and the difficulty of learning thats keeping away all the non-thief adventurers from learning stealing right now. Make it easier and we'll all be saying that - "They took our jobs!". Cant really say if thats a good or a bad thing for us though.
Or searching the corpse with an extra roundtime to find more loot afterwards. Us thieves, we know exactly all the nooks and crannies where one might hide some extra loot! Although, on the down side, im afraid that something like this would make everyone in Elanthia wanting to become thieves, in the sense of training the stealing skill.
Its most likely the limited usefulness and the difficulty of learning thats keeping away all the non-thief adventurers from learning stealing right now. Make it easier and we'll all be saying that - "They took our jobs!". Cant really say if thats a good or a bad thing for us though.
URUTU
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/11/2012 04:14 AM CDT
<<Or searching the corpse with an extra roundtime to find more loot afterwards.>>
Good idea. I've always thought some treasure boxes should have false bottoms and secret compartments that might yield more stuff to a skilled thief.
Kaxis
>In the large jar you see some toad oil, some moda tongue oil, some dolomar oil, some moruryn oil, some westanuryn oil and some viper sac oil.
>You exclaim, "Collect all six!"
Good idea. I've always thought some treasure boxes should have false bottoms and secret compartments that might yield more stuff to a skilled thief.
Kaxis
>In the large jar you see some toad oil, some moda tongue oil, some dolomar oil, some moruryn oil, some westanuryn oil and some viper sac oil.
>You exclaim, "Collect all six!"
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/11/2012 07:48 AM CDT
<<Or searching the corpse with an extra roundtime to find more loot afterwards. Us thieves, we know exactly all the nooks and crannies where one might hide some extra loot!>>
true, but thieves and necromancers would probably have to share this ability. thieves know the nooks and crannies, but necromancers know corpses. :-)
<<as I firmly believe that upstanding citizens have the inalienable right to strike down musicians whenever possible.>>
true, but thieves and necromancers would probably have to share this ability. thieves know the nooks and crannies, but necromancers know corpses. :-)
<<as I firmly believe that upstanding citizens have the inalienable right to strike down musicians whenever possible.>>
PHANT0MR0GUE
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/11/2012 08:27 AM CDT
We are talking about searching for goods. Not searching for organs.
SCHULTZS3
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/11/2012 08:36 AM CDT
"Zombie, give me all the money and gems you had on you in life!"
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/11/2012 09:39 AM CDT
The only thing this makes me think of is the snap of a doctor putting on elbow length gloves.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.
SHADOW7988
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/11/2012 05:36 PM CDT
I especially like the secret compartments in boxes.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
NEELD
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/13/2012 10:08 AM CDT
<<Or searching the corpse with an extra roundtime to find more loot afterwards.
That is a really cool idea.
Madigan
That is a really cool idea.
Madigan
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/13/2012 11:17 AM CDT
<<Or searching the corpse with an extra roundtime to find more loot afterwards.
>>That is a really cool idea.
Repeating one of my old suggestions here: do this, but make it a Thievery/Perception check. Boom, instant reason I care about Stealing Ranks, cause I sure don't care about shop stealing.
>>That is a really cool idea.
Repeating one of my old suggestions here: do this, but make it a Thievery/Perception check. Boom, instant reason I care about Stealing Ranks, cause I sure don't care about shop stealing.
SHADOW7988
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/13/2012 04:04 PM CDT
Will this Thievery/Perception searching for loot, not only run against those skills but train them?
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Thief Circle Requirements
04/13/2012 05:15 PM CDT
>>Will this Thievery/Perception searching for loot, not only run against those skills but train them?
Presumably, though I would say very minimally.
Presumably, though I would say very minimally.
