Total required skills broken up in skillsets for 101-150:

skillset	ranger	thief
lore	5	10
survivals	40	42
magic	9	n/a
weapons	14	12
armor	12	3

Not counting magic, thieves from 101-150 need 67 ranks per circle, while rangers need 71.
Both of your signature skills have soft requirements.
Both of your signature skills have the same requirements per circle.
The 1st survival for Thieves is 40 higher than Rangers (770 vs 740).
The 8th survival for Thieves is 100 lower than Rangers (370 vs 470).
Neither of you can compare to Necromancer requirements. :P

______________________________________

Your analysis is not good.

The weapon req. is exactly the same. Rangers require parry, too, but it's a joke. Same with armor.

This brings us to lore and survival, where Thieves are clearly higher reqs in both.

>Possibly. There's a compelling argument.

I agree. There is a compelling argument to swap.

>Because while necromancers are the new 'hardmode' guild, thieves should still be a more challenging guild than the public-friendly professional guilds. I would feel dirty if I let thieves fall into complete normality, even if joining the guild isn't as hard as it used to be.

What are you talking about?

Skill	Thief	Necro
Survival 1	770	770
Survival 2	730	770
Survival 3	720	670
Survival 4	720	670
Survival 5	640	670
Survival 6	610	620
Survival 7	570	520
Lore 1	460	420
Lore 2	370	380
Lore 3	320	none

...and thieves have two soft survival reqs. vs. necro's one. And one of them is worthless non-combat skill.

And thieve's weapon req > necro weapon req.

I guess necro's have more magic? Heh.

The only two skillsets we have the same is survival prime and lore secondary. And for those, thieves clearly are harder:
Thief survival > necro survival
Thief lore > necro lore


What are you guys talking about?

<<What matters is the game we play, not the game you want it to be some day. Please improve the game we play, not chance things in anticipation of the game you hope we will some day play.>>

Absolutely. Like the oft-repeated line about "it makes more sense to wait for a full rewrite than to apply bandaids now" type thinking we used to hear a lot. That was irksome to the max. It might be true in some situations, but a lot of things could have benefited from a little current work. Would it have really crippled everything to have added mail balaclavas to old forging later? Versus waiting a decade for the rewrite?

Kodius in particular seems determined to root out all the little errors and inaccuracies and omissions in crafting as we go along, which is nothing short of spectacular. He's not the only GM showing that kind of interest in detail. Good stuff all around.

<<There's certainly a balance to be struck between planning for the future and developing for the now. This particular release is very heavy on planning for the future, and work after the foundational release will be focused on improving the world as it is.

I agree with you, Socharis. I suppose my observation of you guys now is that it seems obvious you don't want to stay in the huddle forever but actually want to run some plays. We didn't always get that feeling from staff in the past.

No, I'm not knocking Fial. It's just a different day in DR now, and I like it.

Kaxis

---

>A dobek moruryn sits perfectly still.
>The dobek moruryn crumbles apart.

You say, "Hey, use it or lose it, buddy."

Haha, not that it matters. Pretty sure I'm cancelling my accounts due to Solomon's handling of TF. Later!

Bye, George!

Let's get back on topic, Thief Circle requirements.

Thanks!

Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.

Not nearly as painful as I thought it would be. No hard or soft requirement in locksmithing! I cheered aloud when I saw that.

I don't think it effects me either way but I definitely agree with switching stealth and thievery for thematic reasons. Stealth has always seemed to be the focus of the guild. It encompasses just about every aspect of what it means to be a member of the Thieves guild both in guild lore and for training/skill application. It's fine for thievery/stealing to have a soft requirement but the stealth requirement should be the higher of the two.

~Minstrel Ascot, Bladesinger of M'riss

If my math is right, I will need some grandfathering it seems. Only in survivals though.

Backstab (-16), Thievery (-14), Foraging (-7), and First Aid (-49)

Over all not bad, I hate first aid so will have to figure out what to do there to get Athletics up high enough. I'm ok with grandfathering of BS and Thievery since they both are HORRIBLE (with a PhD in horribleness) to train and have been for a very long time.

Yamcer

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"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

I end up needing a little grandfathering <about 4 circles worth> for my 3, 4, 6 and 7 survival.
Where I really end up hurting is in weapons.

I'll need tremendous amount in my 2nd weapon, because of the combination of ME and LE, which were my 1st and 2nd respectively. That's pain. And then that will end up eating into my bonus pool for weapons, when I've trained a bit of everything to be well-rounded as a char. That sucks.


=schvartz<prime>



"we're doing it for the good of mankind," said the philosophers of murder, waiting for the rest of the world to congratulate them"-Elie Wiesel <the gates of the forest>

>Scholarship is my highest Lore

I salute you, but dude, you is crazy.

It's kinda weird, I have zero trouble locking stealing even at more than the req... even backstabbing really isn't an issue for me at all.

Scholarship on the other hand... makes me want to punch things.

And crossbows.

I agree that I'd like to see stealth and thievery swapped. Even though I'm a "stealing" thief I think the Guild is more defined by being stealthy than actually being thieves. Swapping them would still require us to steal but it won't be as annoying for the combat and locksmith thieves as the current soft requirements.

Because some of us rolled a thief over a decade go.
The guild has gone through at least two exp changes that I can think of since I started.
Systems were planned and 'soon' that have never appeared.

I have no problem locking stealing either, granted I barely have any ranks (260). But I still hate it. It's a pointless skill that isn't rewarding for it's own sake, annoying to train.
Hell I'd rather train backstab than stealing and backstab takes me entirely too long to lock.

Yay for you, you don't have a problem with stealing and you think it's awesome. Yes that puts you in the majority, mocking everyone else for not agreeing with your point of view doesn't help your case much.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BearTrap
Traps, coming soon to DR.

I actually also think we should have a Backstab requirement added. It's the Guild-only skill, and while it's all but guaranteed that it'll be trained since we'll need 8 out of 10 survivals (and this time there's ONLY 10 survivals to pick from, period), it's not currently a true required hard ranked skill like all other Guild-only skills are or will be (when they get around to making more of them).

>How about backstab, stealth and thievery have hard reqs that match our first survival req AND count as Nth Survivals.

I would however disagree about making them required to be equal to top survival (although that's how I roll with my personal requirements; though stealing is more in a second tier level). I would say, as a ball park, that they should be soft skills with requirements around 6th survival at least, maybe 5th.

>well why on gods green earth did you roll a thief?

I'll tell the truth here. I picked Thief over Ranger because I prefer a Thief's non-magic/khri abilities, notably the Ambush system. It was a hard, long, and grueling match up that I questioned every day, as I debated between working my novice Thief, or working up my much higher circle Ranger; between Thief abilities vs. magic access+skinning. With Skinning opening up (again), that however tipped it in favor of Thief, and since I got early word of Skinning 3.0 (Plat), I picked my Thief.

I like doing boxes. I like pickpocketing NPCs (easy few gold for a couple minutes work tracking them down). I like doing the museum. I'll probably like doing B+E when they get around to it. I'll definitely love smuggling (seeing how my top circle character is a Trader, there's no way they're going to do smuggling that I would't get into). But I also like doing "Rangerly" things such as foraging and skinning, and definitely first aid (I have a personal req. of about 150 FA on all my characters, approximately enough to tend a light bleed in combat with no RT).

I don't like the shop stealing system as it is now (partly because I can't get the script I wrote to functionally pawn/bin), and I sure didn't pick a Thief to rob other PCs. I've been stolen enough on my Empath/Trader mains over the years to understand the frustration of getting robbed literally blind, and vow never to inflict that misery on others.

I also do steal such mundanities as alchemical devices or keyblanks (I forage perfect Ranger-capped herbs on my Ranger), and the occasional piece of armor or weapon. Origami paper.

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

Just thought I'd throw in a thought. Guild names are as much architypes as actual descriptors.

A great many Barbarians are not particularly barbaric. Beyond the endless slaughter. Besides that.

---

Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

>None of them look greek to me.

No, but most of them are roamin.

---

Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

>A great many Barbarians are not particularly barbaric. Beyond the endless slaughter. Besides that.

You are barbaric because you won't get with the civilized program and use magic like the rest of the Enlightened Realms.

Kaeta Airtag

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

the weapon reqs seem a bit low for my taste, especially the secondary weapon req.

other then that, looks good.

A thief who was better at ganking crap from pockets then going unnoticed when he did it would be a pretty useless thief indeed.

>>>Now, the problem with BS is training it. The way it has been the last number of years is pretty stupid. You should be able to backstab by, ya know, actually BACKSTABBING instead of poking something in the eye and not killing it.

Backstab kills too fast to make it an effective trainer. To make it a better trainer they'd have to bump the exp per hit or reduce it's power. That's not a coin I want them tossing, if you don't mind.

There's some RL precedent for it as well. Hunters train by shooting at bottle caps when they're really going to be aiming for an area the size of a head. What people consider to be the 'best' archers in the world don't shoot at anything that moves...they increase distance and reduce size but if they had an angry Barbarian charging them I'm pretty sure they'd skip the breathing mantra and throw a few 'good enough' arrows downrange. I actually think it's a pretty good system and one that's passably in character.

Training on some idiot goblin...of course you're going to make up ways of making it more difficult. You're dancing at melee with four of them for no other reason than to make it harder. But when that rare pvp conflict comes up, you're not trying to make it harder, you're looking to win. "I can skewer an eyeball nine of ten, I'm pretty sure I can give this guy a new dolphin-style breathing hole."

When you're reducing the population of a room to your happy self, you bring out the big guns.

Bear in mind this argument is coming from someone who didn't know about lunge left eye until I hit 80th.

<<All the other guild-only skills will be required for that guild, right?>>

Some guilds have a hard requirement for their guild only skill.

Clerics have theurgy
Empaths have empathy
Moon mages have astrology
Necromancers have thanatology
Paladins have defending
Traders have trading
War mages have summoning

Looks like only one guild has a soft requirement.

Rangers and scouting

That leaves three with out a specific requirement. But they can be used for the Nth skill.

Barbarians and expertise
Bards and bardic lore
Thieves and backstab

Yamcer

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"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF