Not officially, as in an actual seminar on them or anything like that, though a few of us asked GM's here and there about them. They're still coming but not a hot topic at the moment.

~~~Krin
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati"
"Goblins ... aisle 6, Mycthengelde ... hunt smart, hunt S-Mart!"
"You whine like a mule ... you are still alive!"
"Call me Snake."

For those who don't know, a long long time ago, "racial feats" were suggested by the staff. These were supposed to be little added (minor) bonuses that would be available for purchase based on race. I've come up with a number of ideas for what kinds of things I'd like to see available and how I would work the purchasing system. Note that nowhere has anyone promised to make these a reality; I am simply posting the idea because I think it would be neat and might generate some creativity.

First of all, these are meant to be optional. That is, if you want your character to stay exactly as he/she is now, that's fine. In many cases the feats represent things that are likely to be true only for some members of the race. Again, not mandatory to take any (bonuses or penalties).

Purchasing

What I suggest is that everyone get two positive feats for free. Any other positive feat can then only be purchased once you have bought a negative feat. I'd suggest that the first four types below be interchangeable (positive feats from one can come with negative feats from any other), but the last type (stats) should have its own balance. I give plenty of examples below for most of the races; I envision Humans having many of these options available to them but at lower potency. Please forgive my bias toward Kaldar examples as they are the race I tend to know the most about.

Types of Feats

1. Resistances. These can be anything from minor supernatural resistances to simply reflecting the hardy build of the race. I'd suggest various levels of purchase. E.g., a Kaldar could purchase 15% cold resistance, say, up to three times. Examples:
(+) Cold -- Kaldar
(+) Impact -- Gor'Togs
(+) Poison/Disease -- Dwarves
(+) Psychic -- Elotheans
(-) Cold -- S'Kra Mur

2. Affinities. These represent where and when your race is in its element, feeling most at home and/or most confident. They would give you a small bonus to all skills and/or stats during certain circumstances. Examples:
(+) Winter -- Kaldar
(+) Katamba up -- Rakash
(+) Forest -- Elves (forest)
(+) Tarts -- Halflings (limit per day)
(+) Desert/Jungle -- S'Kra Mur
(+) Underground -- Dwarves
(-) Cities -- Kaldar

3. Skills. These skills represent those that a race particularly excels at (or is particularly poor at). Several races may be good at the same skill. Examples:
(+) Tinkering -- Gnomes
(+) Scholarship -- Elotheans
(+) Stalking -- Prydaen
(+) Hiding -- Halflings/Gnomes
(-) Hiding -- Kaldar/Gor'Togs

4. Utility. These feats represent little things that members of your race can often do naturally. Basically a catch-all for other stuff. Examples:
(+) Burden -- Gnomes (they're smart about balancing weights!)
(+) Minor cantrip -- Elotheans

5. Stats. In this case I'm suggesting a wider range of stat bonuses/penalties for each race. So you would begin as you do now, but for every extra bonus (say from -1 to -2 Disc) you would have to purchase an additional penalty (say from +0 to +1 Str). Example: Rakash.
-- STR: +1, +0, -1
-- REF: +0, -1
-- AGI: +1, +0
-- STA: -1, -2, -3
-- CHA: +1, +0
-- DISC: +0, -1, -2, -3
-- WIS: +1, +0, -1
-- INT: +2, +1, +0

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. I would suggest absolutely loads of feats for each race (especially skills -- perhaps 2 positive, 2 negative per skillset, per race). The idea is to give each race its own feel while allowing people to choose what fits their particular character.

No, there's nothing stopping Joe Gor'Tog Barbarian from taking feats that maximize his Barb stuff and minimize his crafting skills. But I think that would all be a part of the fun. With all skills/stats coming into alignment (i.e., equally useful and fun in different situations), I don't really see a problem with that.

<<By adding even more penalties, now you're effectively restricting or even forcing a character of a certain race into a certain guild, which I think is wrong. Eventually we end up with Kaldar paladins, Gor'tog barbarians, Elven rangers, etc. I like the diversity that exists now. I think we should work to preserve it, not eliminate >>

This.

i like being able to play a race for the RP value, but i don't want to be overly penalized in everything because of it.

There have to be SOME gor-tog moonmages, and SOME gnome paladins, and SOME prydaen necromanc... well, maybe not..

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You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath

These feats don't really seem to make sense with the racial lore that is available. As an example, Elves have many clans, not just the forest clan.


Yamcer

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"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

I like the flavor and the idea behind it, but I suspect it would end up being a pain.

This game has a tendency to take anything that gives a bonus and turn it into the new standard. I suspect people would ultra-min/max with such bonuses and anyone who didn't would end up with a "virtual penalty."

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Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi, Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares

>>This game has a tendency to take anything that gives a bonus and turn it into the new standard. I suspect people would ultra-min/max with such bonuses and anyone who didn't would end up with a "virtual penalty."

Yes, I can see that. And it's a real shame, especially for those of us who would like this kind of flavor and could handle the terrible "penalty" of Halflings having a potential bonus to Hiding.

For myself, I am mostly just tired of my Kaldar character being mechanically almost indistinguishable from a Human (and Humans being a pretty boring baseline). I fill that gap with a lot of RP, but there would be something about, say, having cold resistance that would enhance my own feeling that she's different in an interesting and exciting way.

Here is one more thought on the "virtual penalty." What if there were so many potential skill boosts that there was no obvious "right" answer for a guild? Let's just take Thieves for example (disclaimer: I've never played a Thief so take this with a grain of salt). I could conceivably imagine a list of potential bonuses laid out as follows:

Halflings -- Stealth, Stealing, Agility
Gnomes -- Stealth, Locksmithing, Reflex
Prydaen -- Stealth, Evasion, Reflex
Elves -- Carving, Bows, Agility, Charisma
S'Kra Mur -- Stealing, Backstab, Reflex
Kaldar -- Augmentation, Crossbows, Charisma
Rakash -- Perception, Discipline, Stamina
Dwarves -- Discipline, Stamina, added Poison resistance
Elotheans -- Perception, Medium Edged, Discipline/Reflex
Gor'Togs -- Augmentation, Stamina
Humans -- Any combo, but at reduced potency

I tried to list only those bonuses that I think would be most important to a Thief -- as I proposed, each race would have a bonus available to two skills per skillset, so there would also be a lot more available. Still, even with this cursory gathering of potential bonuses, I hope you can see that there would be a lot of possibilities for someone to build a good Thief, depending on what's important to them.

This might lessen the "virtual penalty" somewhat, as there is no clear winner and therefore no clear feeling of penalty if you don't pick that winner.

While Racial feats do sound interesting I think they fall into the realm of DnD to much. But if they are optional I dont see a problem with then being released eventually. But as RAIST stated I am not sure if its worth the effort at this point. I would rather see systems released that were promised before this system and also see existing system get fixed (horses, boats, pawnshops).


Wanderer Larze
Guardian Rhamist

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Your mind hears Aethyrr thinking, "fyrel I can't lick my hips"

>>Off the cuff I think it is unlikely if racial feats are developed that they'd go in the "Bonus to skill and/or stats" direction for just the reasons discussed.

I think it would be kind of nifty if 'racial feats' went more in the direction of letting players choose from a diversified list of racial verbs and such for their characters. For instance, why should all elves have the same handshake or whatever that is? Make different options based on the different clans and let the players pick which, if any, their character would use. Putting things on this kind of system would also allow them to set it (or rather, not to choose one) to default to a non-race-restricted version, for those characters who don't fit the usual racial stereotype.

It would be sort of like custom spell preps, but for racial verbs. Don't know how much appeal it would have for other people, but I would enjoy it.

Another good option for "racial feats" would be the ubiquitous requests for a way to learn other racial languages, perhaps.

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Ogdaro

>More racial verbs I could live with. That's a good idea. Racial feats that apply to stats or guilds... not so much.

This.

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You laugh when you think of how funny you looked in a mirror the last time.

I'm a little surprised no one likes the idea. I don't really get why. But... <shrug>.

More verbs I could definitely get behind.

>>Because just handing out racial bonus as mentioned ie evasion, stalking, etc.. that could stack with guild abilities and other magics would be unbalancing.

Potentially, sure. Any change to the game has the potential to unbalance things, particularly large changes like this one would be.

>>Should a Gor'Tog Barbarian get an additional bonus to 2h weapons on top of their berserks or dances because of their race?

Keep in mind I'm not suggesting that suddenly all races get a million bonuses that they have no control over -- what I suggested was a small number of optional additions. Yes, a Gor'Tog Barb could choose to have a small bonus to 2HE (or one of a bunch of skills), and a Gnome could choose a small bonus to Evasion (or one of a bunch of skills). Gnomes could also choose bonuses to weapons, and Togs bonuses to defenses. Yes, everyone could get a little bit better at what they're already good at.

But, assuming we're basically balanced as is (okay, a big assumption), I don't see it changing things that much.

Some people seem to like the non-skill/stat bonuses, so we could maybe just go with those.

>>If a gnome (gor'tog) can choose what a gro'tog (gnome) can how is it a racial feat still?

I said that they could each choose weapons or defenses. Not that their options would be identical. E.g., for weapons, perhaps the Tog could choose 2HE or 2HB, and the Gnome could choose LE or Crossbow. Although there might be some overlap in some skillsets (e.g., perhaps both could choose Smithing).

> I think a good racial feat would be like ... extremely rare and has a good benefit.

This, I like. I like it a lot. Not too powerful, but it constantly reminds you that you aren't just a green/pointy-eared/short/hair-footed/etc human.

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Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi, Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares

>>So...what about the humans? Free pick from the rest?

Humans randomly flip out and kill everybody when they try to forage for something in a room full of people. Humans have a slight predisposition toward being ninja.

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Ogdaro

>>Pfft. Who cares about the humans? :P
Your terrible attempt at sarcasm aside, this sort of comment is exactly why humans are still struggling to find their identity in DR 14 years on.

I think Humans have a pretty snappy identity already.


GM Jaedren

Humans are the Diet Coke of races.

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You laugh when you think of how funny you looked in a mirror the last time.

>>pretty sure the GM picked his words very carefully there.

Yes. It was also a lame joke, though he gets points for trying. :)

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This idea may have worked in another time and another place, but here it immediately fell on its face and went "Durp durp." - Armifer

>>This isn't intended? I've always seen humans in DR as the you-can-be-anything class.

Except that's not unique (as, realistically, any race can be anything to the logical extent of remaining within character for the game)? Humans supposedly have a distinct history and cultural feel in Dragonrealms, but it's only expressed in a few places. Those places, incidentally, are where human identity meets non-human identity. Like the Clans, and M'Riss. Therengia is ostensibly a human-dominated province, but the culture of Therengia is hardly developed. It's just treated sort of like a default Western European medieval barony, with all that entails.

I think a lot of the lack of clarity stems from the intersection of society and culture. Human society in DR is as robust as pretty much any other race (perhaps moreso when one considers how active the Therengian court is comparatively). Human culture, however, lags behind quite a bit. What makes Therengian humans different from Zoluren humans? What makes Zoluren clansmen humans different from Zoluren city humans?

We only really understand human cultural mores when they're taken in context to a specific place, whereas most other races have their cultural mores established in a much broader sense.

It's a problem for Elves, too, since there are so many different kinds of Elves residing in so many different places, but it's less of a problem because a lot of work has been done to explore and flesh out their cultures. We know the difference between River Elves, Mountain Elves, Forest Elves, and Sand Elves, for instance. We still don't know what the differences are between humans from Zoluren and humans from Therengia.

I'm not saying Tiesse isn't doing her job. I'm saying that the sort of attitude you've been presenting engenders and perhaps even supports a sort of inexplicit tiering of humans below all the other races in development priority. "Oh, humans are generic. Humans don't need development because they're everywhere." That's obviously not true (Ilithi, Qi'Reshalia and Forfedhdar are pretty spare on humans, compared to Zoluren and Therengia), and one of the key components to allowing human development to be ignored (i.e. humans are unique in that they are the only race that can do anything well) has been pretty well turned on its head by Dragonrealms from the outset.

>>(Ilithi, Qi'Reshalia and Forfedhdar are pretty spare on humans, compared to Zoluren and Therengia)

Compared to Zoluren and Therengia (which have millions of Humans each), that's absolutely true. However, Forfedhdar does have the Arid Steppe. It's easy to forget, since it's so deeply tied into Moon Mage lore, but there is a predominately Human tribal nation sitting there with what I'd propose is a tolerable amount of background fiction.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas