>>However, Forfedhdar does have the Arid Steppe. It's easy to forget, since it's so deeply tied into Moon Mage lore, but there is a predominately Human tribal nation sitting there with what I'd propose is a tolerable amount of background fiction.

Right, but again it feels like the humans of the Arid Steppe are only presented so thoroughly because of how the Steppe culture juxtaposes to the "native" dwarven culture and the nearby Clans. We're still left with two of the largest population centers of humans being a mostly blank canvas culturally speaking.

This is somewhat ameliorated by the fact that those two centers of human influence have very strong social circles, but it irks me to see people dismiss the need for development of human culture simply because they're "everywhere" and "can be anything." Humans on Aesry and Ratha are likely substantially different in culture than humans on M'Riss, but we don't know how (and, more importantly, how those two subsets of humans interact).

I'm not saying it needs to happen overnight, but the flippant attitude towards lore writing in regards to what is a fairly substantial portion of the playerbase engendered by those kinds of comments really does need to end. There are a lot of obvious questions related to human culture that even the basic demographics released provoke. Why is such a large percentage of the Cleric's and Paladin's Guild human (are they more frequently called to serve the Immortals)?

There's plenty to exploit in regards to developing human identity, but it's long been considered a backburner issue compared to developing culture for the other races. Most of the new races came with significant cultural information and (modern) cultural figures. Humans have ancient figures, and even then they're sort of dismissed with "not much is known about him (referring to Arhat, founder of the Warrior Mage's Guild)."

>>It's a bit amusing to see this reply as a GM is rolling out detailed information on the entire way the Human noble families in Zoluren function.

Zoluren's noble families are mixed race.

>>Seven of the Eight Zoluren noble houses are Human.

You realize this just reinforces my original point, right? Human culture is really only explored when it juxtaposes against the culture of another race.

Not to take anything away from what Jaedren is doing, but I'd much prefer an overview of the common human folk of Zoluren and Therengia than the noble houses of Zoluren. That said, noble houses falls squarely into the society side of things, whereas a study of Zoluren Court culture over the past 120 years would be more what I'm pushing for. Knowing Jaedren, I'm sure that's coming.

>Human culture is really only explored when it juxtaposes against the culture of another race.

That's because the majority of all DR cultures are derivatives of real world human cultures.

---

Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi, Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
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Human cultures adapt and become modified as a result of interaction with other cultures? Unheard of!

This is completely unrealistic Jaedren, you have destroyed my ability to suspend disbelief.

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Ogdaro

I think you would need for racial feats to work, you'd need the clan systems up and going, as well as some sort of basic heritage system. An elf who's whole family was from the islands will be different than one from Leth... all be it not a ton.

You'd also have to realize not all races are going to have the same amount of feats, and some might barely have any, if any. After all a human is the end a human... to be anything different is to stop being human or just an exceptional human(the one rare case).

Now they could have other types of feats that might not at first be thought of as that great. Like maybe they get away from a warden cause all humans look a like. Or you suddenly bluff your way into a lower fine, cause you trick the judge into thinking your his long lost fifth cousin twice removed. 'Normal sort of stuff.' Perhaps as one of the lower 'feat evolved' races you would have a bonus to using tools, as other races rely more on their natural talents, you rely on what you can make to help your self.

Now its not just humans that are at the low end of the system, but they are probably the lowest.

One possible ranking for lowest to highest 'feat evolved' would probably be Humans, then second tier Kaldar/Togs, third tier Rakish/S'kra/Prydaens, fourth tier Halflings/Gnomes, fifth tier Elves/Elotheans/Dwarves.

Another would be Humans, second tier Togs/Kaldar/Rakish(the just barely not human catagory?), third Prydeans/S'kra/Halflings/Gnomes, fourth Elotheans/Elves/Dwarves.

To me gnomes, halflings and maybe elotheans are hard to peg down...

I guess one way of doing it could be first tier human;

second above human because the average of the race is physically above humans in general(kaldars for sure, togs to, maybe rakish/halflings);

third above humans because of non-human mutation such as animal forms(s'kra, prydaens, and rakish sometimes);

fourth above humans because of supreme adaptation(very long life, semi mystical in nature, some sort of unique trait that would put a human in disbelief)(Gnomes and elotheans might fit in here, but having a hard time thinking so. Elotheans more than gnomes for sure though fit. Dwarves, and elves do fit.);


Then feats themselves would be broken into categories.

Physical Feats
Mainly stat based. Some could be like you might have better eye sight, or resist poison easily.

Mental Feats
Fear resistance, better at purely mental based spells(eh maybe not to), better will power.

Traditionally Taught Feats
Race has a small knack for it, but because they have worked at it for years they can teach the young ones how to exploit that knack very well.

Extra-sensory Feats(could use a better name)
Things like a Dwarf *just knows* that if he hits a gem here, that it will yield a greater result when all logic dictates it wouldn't work.

A bunch of races would *just sense* danger coming.

Intuition based things.

Now these would still be based on the earlier idea I posted, on that they would happen extremely rarely, but just enough to remind you hey you are indeed x-race.


~Worrclan, Dwarf of the Realms-

>>I agree that this would be nice, as something you could flag for your character during creation or join later. But I don't think it'd be necessary -- certainly not for all feats. Just as an example, it seems plausible that any kind of Rakash could pick a racial feat having to do with "feeling awesome while Katamba is up," regardless of clan/whatever affiliation.

Well right, there would be a general race feat, and then a specific clan/heritage feat to.


>>I'm afraid I disagree here. I think we have to be really careful to try to keep development as equal as possible across all races (and guilds). Is it fair to say, "Well Traders are just meant to be a bad guild so we shouldn't develop for them?" I would stress careful balancing for any feat system.


To do equal development you would have to have a lot of very bland and generic feats, as feats are based off of racial lore. An as much as any of the current player races want to breath underwater through merelew like gills... or suddenly grow wings and fly, it just won't happen. Humans are humans... they are good at doing the mundane, so if you could come up with feats that match that great.

Though for some specific humans, like the ones from wolf clan, or ram clan... they might be slightly better at something. Not sure if there is enough history on things like that for us to come up with something though.


~Worrclan, Dwarf of the Realms-

>Humans are humans... they are good at doing the mundane, so if you could come up with feats that match that great.

>>I dislike this statement. Despite the fact that humans are the reference that all other races are compared to, they should not be treated as less special.

>>Despite the way certain people have presented it, there is, at the very least, a perception issue about humans. Whatever lore there is, doesn't seem horribly special, because it's just humans. It's too much like regular life.

>>I'm just damned if I can think of a way to fix it.

The clan/heritage system, if a human is from some place that breeds them to be better than the average run of the mill human, they would get a feat.

Rissian humans might be great at holding their breath underwater. Mountain humans would have slightly higher stamina, resistance to cold, be a bit stronger on average.. Again still human though, so except under specific circumstances, it is not going to be exceptionally more than an average human.

Talorc's gypsies, might be one of those human tribes that is an exception. The outcast humans as well.

Being the middle of the row could have its advantages to you know. While you'd not have the extremely useful feats you'd not have the bad ones to. Well assuming they put in some bad ones to, like maybe halflings being susceptible to cold a tiny bit more.

~Worrclan, Dwarf of the Realms-

>>The only thing I can think of is that humans could have a bunch of watered down feats that they could change every so often, to represent the fact that they are so adaptable and common everywhere. Or maybe just more lesser feats compared to other races.

That could work.

~Worrclan, Dwarf of the Realms-

>am I the only one who feels the lack of a tdp penalty is a bonus in and of itself?

They also lack a TDP bonus, which is a penalty that offsets their bonus.

---

Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi, Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares

>>I agree that they do not have a tdp bonus, however, I do not agree that constitutes a penalty. The lack of ability to specialize easier in a particular stat does not limit character growth in as much as the lack of a hinderance to grow one particular stat, in my opinion.

Ahh, loss aversion. It's certainly true that Humans will feel, for many people, like a better option for this reason. This is classic expected utility theory. (Don't mind me, I'm a little lost in my psychology thesis at the moment.)

>>Or maybe just more lesser feats compared to other races.

This. More options available, more total feats, but lesser potency.

Sure, they shouldn't get underwater-breathing, but no other playable race should either.

I like the idea of feats that are a result of being "average" -- but at the same time, Humans are looking for some unique identity, and for that reason I'm hesitant about this route.

If you want to see what Human cultural identities could look like in a fully fleshed out manner, you only have to look at GS. I would kill just to have the depth of cultural information that they have. I could care less if any of the races end up with 'feats', I do want to know customs and traditions between varying human societies.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/races/cultures/human.asp
http://www.play.net/gs4/info/tomes/human_history/home.asp
http://www.play.net/gs4/info/tomes/human_guide/home.asp

>>They also lack a TDP bonus, which is a penalty that offsets their bonus.

I'd rather have no penalty, being that every stat is being made useful.


Magus Adakin of Prime, who's always enjoyed being human.
WorldsBestMagic Kastr of TF

>cast
Your body already swells with the enhanced strength of a hero.

"Killing Time Murders Opportunities."