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My top ten list of things I want or that bug me:
10. Why does it feel like my paladin performs worse after 3.0 than before? I thought armor was better.
9. Are more stance points really a bad thing? Did we really look at old HOW under new 3.0 before we changed it?
8. Why do I already know three posters that will respond to this post? Why do they not realize that a pixie dies every time they reply to a post?
7. #TwoDefenseRule
6. I think a "trap glyph" seems really cool to me. If someone does something sneaky to a paladin (attack from hiding), it seems paladin'ish that something cool (and nasty) should happen to the attacker or something cool (and good) should happen to the paladin.
5. I do not think people realize how limited paladins are with magic because it is really hard to draw a ton of mana as a magic tert.
4. Endurance. In my view, Paladins are leaders in group combat and single combat tanks. It seems appropriate that endurance would further those core concepts.
3. Smite seems like a wet noodle to me. From my experience, it appears Draw works better.
2. What spell/thing defines paladins nowadays?
1. Yeah, I think someone should look into the post of "head of paladin guild". We are basically "Defense Against the Dark Arts" for weird/bad things happening to our GM's.
Madigan
NEELD
SHADOW7988
Re: Top Ten List
03/09/2013 09:39 PM CST
1. Yeah, I think someone should look into the post of "head of paladin guild". We are basically "Defense Against the Dark Arts" for weird/bad things happening to our GM's.
Where is DR Voldemort, let's take him out!
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
Where is DR Voldemort, let's take him out!
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Top Ten List
03/09/2013 11:37 PM CST
> 6. I think a "trap glyph" seems really cool to me. If someone does something sneaky to a paladin (attack from hiding), it seems paladin'ish that something cool (and nasty) should happen to the attacker or something cool (and good) should happen to the paladin.
While I think this is a great and neat idea, I'd rather not see one advantage survival prime guilds have over Paladins vanish even further. Pallies already have Clarity and Sixth Sense (actually, does Sixth Sense only apply to stealing?), and WATCH is still silly beyond measure. If something like this was implemented, I vastly prefer the 'buffs the Paladin' over the 'screws the stealther'.
> 2. What spell/thing defines paladins nowadays?
Mine is only 25th, but it seems like there's an impressive array of offensive and defensive buffs, and that being armor prime means you can get away with swinging some pretty big weapons. Pallies, more than any guild I've played, have what appears to be the smallest drawback to their Confound. They aren't hindered by being in the wilderness or the city, they can't get smitten for using their powers, they don't have to work as hard as Clerics to keep their soulstate up, they don't have to worry about elemental attunement, and they don't have a guild requirement to sit out of combat and do anything really (In reference to Performance).
To me, Paladins have the most benefits with the least amount of caveats or drawbacks.
While I think this is a great and neat idea, I'd rather not see one advantage survival prime guilds have over Paladins vanish even further. Pallies already have Clarity and Sixth Sense (actually, does Sixth Sense only apply to stealing?), and WATCH is still silly beyond measure. If something like this was implemented, I vastly prefer the 'buffs the Paladin' over the 'screws the stealther'.
> 2. What spell/thing defines paladins nowadays?
Mine is only 25th, but it seems like there's an impressive array of offensive and defensive buffs, and that being armor prime means you can get away with swinging some pretty big weapons. Pallies, more than any guild I've played, have what appears to be the smallest drawback to their Confound. They aren't hindered by being in the wilderness or the city, they can't get smitten for using their powers, they don't have to work as hard as Clerics to keep their soulstate up, they don't have to worry about elemental attunement, and they don't have a guild requirement to sit out of combat and do anything really (In reference to Performance).
To me, Paladins have the most benefits with the least amount of caveats or drawbacks.
RAIST
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 06:38 AM CDT
>8. Why do I already know three posters that will respond to this post? Why do they not realize that a pixie dies every time they reply to a post?
Hah! I'm #3!
>7. #TwoDefenseRule
Agreed. It's the main reason I pretty much ignore parry beyond circle reqs.
>6. I think a "trap glyph" seems really cool to me. If someone does something sneaky to a paladin (attack from hiding), it seems paladin'ish that something cool (and nasty) should happen to the attacker or something cool (and good) should happen to the paladin.
I'd personally rather see it as a self-targeted Protect, just for style reasons.
>4. Endurance. In my view, Paladins are leaders in group combat and single combat tanks. It seems appropriate that endurance would further those core concepts.
>3. Smite seems like a wet noodle to me. From my experience, it appears Draw works better.
While I am NOT saying I think it should be useless, keep in mind, you're weapon secondary. My poor weapon primary guild doesn't get smite. I would rather see Smite being a more specialized type of thing.
Some random ideas:
1) Bonus vs. undead and cursed
2) Bonus vs. people and or/creatures who have triggered first strike against you or have triggered your protect (a Paladin doesn't strike first, he strikes last).
3) Turns a melee weapon into a pseduo-throwing weapon (think the old Legend of Zelda at full health).
Random things I think paladins should get:
A spell/ability that allows parry vs. anything. As the guild of defense, they should have the tools to choose any of the defenses, no matter what the attack.
Ran out of time, will try to finish later.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Hah! I'm #3!
>7. #TwoDefenseRule
Agreed. It's the main reason I pretty much ignore parry beyond circle reqs.
>6. I think a "trap glyph" seems really cool to me. If someone does something sneaky to a paladin (attack from hiding), it seems paladin'ish that something cool (and nasty) should happen to the attacker or something cool (and good) should happen to the paladin.
I'd personally rather see it as a self-targeted Protect, just for style reasons.
>4. Endurance. In my view, Paladins are leaders in group combat and single combat tanks. It seems appropriate that endurance would further those core concepts.
>3. Smite seems like a wet noodle to me. From my experience, it appears Draw works better.
While I am NOT saying I think it should be useless, keep in mind, you're weapon secondary. My poor weapon primary guild doesn't get smite. I would rather see Smite being a more specialized type of thing.
Some random ideas:
1) Bonus vs. undead and cursed
2) Bonus vs. people and or/creatures who have triggered first strike against you or have triggered your protect (a Paladin doesn't strike first, he strikes last).
3) Turns a melee weapon into a pseduo-throwing weapon (think the old Legend of Zelda at full health).
Random things I think paladins should get:
A spell/ability that allows parry vs. anything. As the guild of defense, they should have the tools to choose any of the defenses, no matter what the attack.
Ran out of time, will try to finish later.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
PSX71
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 11:09 AM CDT
>3. Smite seems like a wet noodle to me. From my experience, it appears Draw works better.<
>>>While I am NOT saying I think it should be useless, keep in mind, you're weapon secondary. My poor weapon primary guild doesn't get smite. I would rather see Smite being a more specialized type of thing.<<<
Just because a guild is weapon primary does not mean they have to have the best offensive skills and another guild should have a lame attack skill because they are secondary. If we went down that path, Paladins could easily say hey why don't we have the best Defensive skill out there right now and barbs do? I'm talking about "Tenacity" here. I don't want to come off as jerk here but that kind of thinking is what got many good paladin abilities shot down in the past, before they even got out the door.
As a primary weapon guild your bonus is super fast weapon learning which is the largest skill group in the game, with that said. The game has evolved and If anything, An ability should be guided by the strength and effectiveness based on the guilds Sphere of influence more than it just being considered primary, secondary, third.
>>>While I am NOT saying I think it should be useless, keep in mind, you're weapon secondary. My poor weapon primary guild doesn't get smite. I would rather see Smite being a more specialized type of thing.<<<
Just because a guild is weapon primary does not mean they have to have the best offensive skills and another guild should have a lame attack skill because they are secondary. If we went down that path, Paladins could easily say hey why don't we have the best Defensive skill out there right now and barbs do? I'm talking about "Tenacity" here. I don't want to come off as jerk here but that kind of thinking is what got many good paladin abilities shot down in the past, before they even got out the door.
As a primary weapon guild your bonus is super fast weapon learning which is the largest skill group in the game, with that said. The game has evolved and If anything, An ability should be guided by the strength and effectiveness based on the guilds Sphere of influence more than it just being considered primary, secondary, third.
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 11:40 AM CDT
<<10. Why does it feel like my paladin performs worse after 3.0 than before?
This is because we DO perform worse after 3.0
<<7. #TwoDefenseRule
This rule should have never been broken by DFA spells, and should have been fixed. I will restate that a bonus to our lowest defense is not much of a help and therefore DFA attacks are overpowered against survival terts.
<<6. I think a "trap glyph" seems really cool to me.
Ditto here. Auras that were proposed years ago but never got developed would be a good place for something like this. I think they need to be dusted off and applied to endurance feats.
<<5. I do not think people realize how limited paladins are with magic because it is really hard to draw a ton of mana as a magic tert.
I tell folks all of the time that we are really barbarians in plate with crappy weapon skills.
<<4. Endurance. In my view, Paladins are leaders in group combat and single combat tanks. It seems appropriate that endurance would further those core concepts.
Lead is a good ability and so far, I think it is working like it did in 2.0, but I am not 100% certain on that. I would like to see abilities, be they feats or auras, that help us protect others (as soon as they fix protects), DFA and some spell mitigation, an aura that protects our spirit to counter SA, and perhaps some sort of tactics that can apply to a group (flanking, shieldwall, spearhead) when attacking mobs or more particularly units of critters and barricades.
<<3. Smite seems like a wet noodle to me.
No noticeable affect for me either. It used to be some good juice to get a hit in on a slightly tougher opponent to perhaps turn the tide. I am sure it is balanced behind the scenes since it was looked at, but from our side, there is no advantage in using it anymore.
<<2. What spell/thing defines paladins nowadays?
Nothing. We have lacked development in all my years of playing and 3.0 basically took away the usefulness of Smite, Holy Weapons, and Protects (broken so I feel cheesy using them now).
_____________________
Basically, as a guild we need some serious GM love. This is not to discount some nifty things that have been given us and the work done by current GM's but over the years I have been pretty jealous of the development other guilds have gotten compared to us. All the 3.0 changes for some other guilds have been great and I do not begrudge them that. Just wish we someone looking out for us.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
This is because we DO perform worse after 3.0
<<7. #TwoDefenseRule
This rule should have never been broken by DFA spells, and should have been fixed. I will restate that a bonus to our lowest defense is not much of a help and therefore DFA attacks are overpowered against survival terts.
<<6. I think a "trap glyph" seems really cool to me.
Ditto here. Auras that were proposed years ago but never got developed would be a good place for something like this. I think they need to be dusted off and applied to endurance feats.
<<5. I do not think people realize how limited paladins are with magic because it is really hard to draw a ton of mana as a magic tert.
I tell folks all of the time that we are really barbarians in plate with crappy weapon skills.
<<4. Endurance. In my view, Paladins are leaders in group combat and single combat tanks. It seems appropriate that endurance would further those core concepts.
Lead is a good ability and so far, I think it is working like it did in 2.0, but I am not 100% certain on that. I would like to see abilities, be they feats or auras, that help us protect others (as soon as they fix protects), DFA and some spell mitigation, an aura that protects our spirit to counter SA, and perhaps some sort of tactics that can apply to a group (flanking, shieldwall, spearhead) when attacking mobs or more particularly units of critters and barricades.
<<3. Smite seems like a wet noodle to me.
No noticeable affect for me either. It used to be some good juice to get a hit in on a slightly tougher opponent to perhaps turn the tide. I am sure it is balanced behind the scenes since it was looked at, but from our side, there is no advantage in using it anymore.
<<2. What spell/thing defines paladins nowadays?
Nothing. We have lacked development in all my years of playing and 3.0 basically took away the usefulness of Smite, Holy Weapons, and Protects (broken so I feel cheesy using them now).
_____________________
Basically, as a guild we need some serious GM love. This is not to discount some nifty things that have been given us and the work done by current GM's but over the years I have been pretty jealous of the development other guilds have gotten compared to us. All the 3.0 changes for some other guilds have been great and I do not begrudge them that. Just wish we someone looking out for us.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 11:49 AM CDT
<<While I think this is a great and neat idea, I'd rather not see one advantage survival prime guilds have over Paladins vanish even further. Pallies already have Clarity and Sixth Sense (actually, does Sixth Sense only apply to stealing?), and WATCH is still silly beyond measure. If something like this was implemented, I vastly prefer the 'buffs the Paladin' over the 'screws the stealther'.
Clarity is now an INT buff and does help. Sixth Sense does nothing to negate a stealther's abilities nor buff ours, it just lets us know something is hostile to us (stealing, marking, stalking, but funny enough, not sniping ambushing or otherwise attacking us from hiding). Clarity on top of this (at least in 2.0, I do not think it has changed) can let us know who is marking/stealing/whatever but a skill check is involved. It is nice that you like advantages over survival tert's but it gets old for us after a while. WATCH is NOT a Paladin ability and was a fix for OP stealth.
I will agree, though, that any abilities in this area should be paladin buffs.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Clarity is now an INT buff and does help. Sixth Sense does nothing to negate a stealther's abilities nor buff ours, it just lets us know something is hostile to us (stealing, marking, stalking, but funny enough, not sniping ambushing or otherwise attacking us from hiding). Clarity on top of this (at least in 2.0, I do not think it has changed) can let us know who is marking/stealing/whatever but a skill check is involved. It is nice that you like advantages over survival tert's but it gets old for us after a while. WATCH is NOT a Paladin ability and was a fix for OP stealth.
I will agree, though, that any abilities in this area should be paladin buffs.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
MOCKERJB
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 03:08 PM CDT
I'm surprised that you guys feel less powerful in 3.0 honestly. From what I've seen, paladins truly can take some insane levels of punishment now, and melee has come up in the world as an equal force of combat. I would think that would go a long way towards helping you vs your banes, DFA and backstab, as they can no longer ice you instantly. Not saying adjustment isn't necessary or anything, just curious how folks think things actually got worse. Is it maybe performs worse offensively but better defensively? I certainly feel that way, but I think that might be an across the board thing.
I think the idea of a trap glyph is awesome. Perhaps some kind of instant cast anti stun or (whatever that spell is you have that stuns people who hit you) or halo-type spell that activates when it senses an attempt.
Definitely agree on endurance idea too. That seems like it could and should have some really cool group protect abilities. Kodius has noted that there's not much to do in the way of improving general armor absorbtion beyond what's available before it would become absurdly insane to kill someone, but maybe endurance could work into status effect/poison resistance and AOE meta options for otherwise generally self-cast things when a paladin is grouped.
Another cool option for endurance would be to allow for "tactical repositioning" i.e. retreat when it otherwise wouldn't be possible (boss creatures, future trap system, siege stuff?). Or, it could allow for group abilities that spread some of the paladin's protection to the group as a general damage barrier/status effect resistance. Maybe as a higher level skill it allows a flat damage immunity for 15 seconds or something? Another high level option might be like a cyclic type TM matrix barrier that acted like glyph ward but was passive, i.e. you were just rolling around and no one could target you while it was up. I don't know, just brainstorming.
I think the idea of a trap glyph is awesome. Perhaps some kind of instant cast anti stun or (whatever that spell is you have that stuns people who hit you) or halo-type spell that activates when it senses an attempt.
Definitely agree on endurance idea too. That seems like it could and should have some really cool group protect abilities. Kodius has noted that there's not much to do in the way of improving general armor absorbtion beyond what's available before it would become absurdly insane to kill someone, but maybe endurance could work into status effect/poison resistance and AOE meta options for otherwise generally self-cast things when a paladin is grouped.
Another cool option for endurance would be to allow for "tactical repositioning" i.e. retreat when it otherwise wouldn't be possible (boss creatures, future trap system, siege stuff?). Or, it could allow for group abilities that spread some of the paladin's protection to the group as a general damage barrier/status effect resistance. Maybe as a higher level skill it allows a flat damage immunity for 15 seconds or something? Another high level option might be like a cyclic type TM matrix barrier that acted like glyph ward but was passive, i.e. you were just rolling around and no one could target you while it was up. I don't know, just brainstorming.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 04:11 PM CDT
I don't disagree with most things here, but I feel waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful on Sam now then ever before. Like, scarily more powerful.
Samsaren
Samsaren
NEELD
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 04:18 PM CDT
Ohh, I think it depends on your setup. My character performs worse. I think any paladin that is HT or one-hander prime/shield should be all good. My Top Ten was to drop in a post things I am thinking right now. Hopefully it will generate some discussion.
Madigan
Madigan
ASHAMAN1
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 04:56 PM CDT
Trust me Madigan, I understand. I also feel the pain of trying to put up 400-600 mana of buffs, run a cyclic and try to toss 80-100 mana SFs in pvp on a tert magic pool.
Samsaren
Samsaren
RAIST
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 05:30 PM CDT
>Just because a guild is weapon primary does not mean they have to have the best offensive skills and another guild should have a lame attack skill because they are secondary. If we went down that path, Paladins could easily say hey why don't we have the best Defensive skill out there right now and barbs do? I'm talking about "Tenacity" here. I don't want to come off as jerk here but that kind of thinking is what got many good paladin abilities shot down in the past, before they even got out the door.
Is that how you guys felt about YS? :P
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Is that how you guys felt about YS? :P
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 05:40 PM CDT
<<I'm surprised that you guys feel less powerful in 3.0 honestly. From what I've seen, paladins truly can take some insane levels of punishment now, and melee has come up in the world as an equal force of combat.
Sure, we take longer to kill and that is about it. Being highly susceptible to a myriad of debuffs makes us fairly useless at melee or ranged. Offensively we have little help.
<<Ohh, I think it depends on your setup. My character performs worse. I think any paladin that is HT or one-hander prime/shield should be all good.
Nope, not good at all. One-hander prime/shield with HT here.
I suppose it is possible that I am no good at CvC in spite of all the practice I have tried to do. There is also the fact that Seb is not really trained for CvC (didn't farm armor TDP's because I had no clue how that worked for years) so you can disregard anything I have to say if you like.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Sure, we take longer to kill and that is about it. Being highly susceptible to a myriad of debuffs makes us fairly useless at melee or ranged. Offensively we have little help.
<<Ohh, I think it depends on your setup. My character performs worse. I think any paladin that is HT or one-hander prime/shield should be all good.
Nope, not good at all. One-hander prime/shield with HT here.
I suppose it is possible that I am no good at CvC in spite of all the practice I have tried to do. There is also the fact that Seb is not really trained for CvC (didn't farm armor TDP's because I had no clue how that worked for years) so you can disregard anything I have to say if you like.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
PSX71
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 05:44 PM CDT
I never had a problem with it, lol and I think its perfectly fine as it is. Besides that was like so 2004!
PS, I'm Loving that Kertig Broad you made me, Its letting me get Apocalyptic hits again at my hunting level and I have not see that since 3.0 started :D
PS, I'm Loving that Kertig Broad you made me, Its letting me get Apocalyptic hits again at my hunting level and I have not see that since 3.0 started :D
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 07:20 PM CDT
>> If we went down that path, Paladins could easily say hey why don't we have the best Defensive skill out there right now and barbs do? I'm talking about "Tenacity" here. I don't want to come off as jerk here but that kind of thinking is what got many good paladin abilities shot down in the past, before they even got out the door.
Tenacity isn't the best, MaF is, because it stacks with other stuff (on top of being more powerful).
Tenacity isn't the best, MaF is, because it stacks with other stuff (on top of being more powerful).
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 07:28 PM CDT
Why do two handers not perform well? And why do you feel paladins are more susceptible to debuffs than any other guild with anti magic capabilities?
ELFVERHAN
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 07:59 PM CDT
>> And why do you feel paladins are more susceptible to debuffs than any other guild with anti magic capabilities?
Magic terts as a result less ability to recover.
not enough pool
not enough speed in casting
not enough multi spells
and the list goes on for PvP
The bucket burbles suddenly as its contents begin to dissolve....
Suddenly it spits out some niniam field plate onto the floor.
Magic terts as a result less ability to recover.
not enough pool
not enough speed in casting
not enough multi spells
and the list goes on for PvP
The bucket burbles suddenly as its contents begin to dissolve....
Suddenly it spits out some niniam field plate onto the floor.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 08:08 PM CDT
Those seem like poor reasons . Paladins have an anti magic ward and everymental stat .buff, as well as the best anti stun. I don't think paladins are remotely as susceptible as you're implying .
SEBESTYEN64
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 10:00 PM CDT
<<Those seem like poor reasons.
But accurate.
<<Paladins have an anti magic ward and everymental stat .buff, as well as the best anti stun.
Wards that can be defeated as explained in one of those poor reasons. Anti-stun is not all that, for one.. the duration was seriously nerfed in 3.0 and can likely fall during a fight. Also, we are in fact stunned by spells and balance tanked degrading the limited offensive capabilities we have. Additionally shove seems to work well at tanking our balance. DFA spells and DFA cyclics are troublesome for Paladins as well.
<<I don't think paladins are remotely as susceptible as you're implying .
Play one and get back with us.
~~~
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
REWYN
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 10:01 PM CDT
I do not feel that Paladins are in any way weak in 3.0. I honestly feel stronger now, although I feel we have many holes in our development, I dont think we need to be more effective just better rounded (AoE cyclical attacks, our multi attack spell sucks hard, warhorses are pointless, holy weapon is terrible, etc).
That said to your points
>>10. Why does it feel like my paladin performs worse after 3.0 than before? I thought armor was better.
I disagree, its a buff, although I don't think Armor is really where it should be yet. Its improved but it feels lacking with lots of ranks. That said the way its scaled is vs the enemies skill, so once armor > enemy attack skill, it tends to drop off I feel in terms of how useful it is. That runs in line with offense modifiers affected damage though so that works.
>>9. Are more stance points really a bad thing? Did we really look at old HOW under new 3.0 before we changed it?
Yes, it was very unbalancing. I LOVED the old HoW, but it was way better than any other defensive buff in the game. That said I do not think the new HoW is very good. It was not designed in mind for a defense primary guild I feel in that
A) it only procs when you are hit
B) it only can proc once per cycle, and it has long cycles
The combination of this means its generally not very effective and I cant see using it over TR unless it need the bless effect. If issue A was changed to 'are attacked' with B remaining, it would be loads better.
>>8. Why do I already know three posters that will respond to this post? Why do they not realize that a pixie dies every time they reply to a post?
Was I one? I honestly waited a long time to say anything to this.
>>7. #TwoDefenseRule
Yep. I hate it to
>>6. I think a "trap glyph" seems really cool to me. If someone does something sneaky to a paladin (attack from hiding), it seems paladin'ish that something cool (and nasty) should happen to the attacker or something cool (and good) should happen to the paladin.
I think HoJ should be modified to do this. Frankly, almost no one steals anymore. The real evil is Necromancers now a days, not thieves...
>>5. I do not think people realize how limited paladins are with magic because it is really hard to draw a ton of mana as a magic tert.
Yes. Agreed. Stinks, but we are supposed to/already have armor perks to compensate. I think they could be better. Arm won shields are nice, but it be nicer if we could bash with them. Multi armor hindrance is more of a training item. If it were up to paladins we would only wear HP. The fact we train other armors is just for TDPS...Weapons serve different purposes, armor is a case of more is better for a paladin.
>>4. Endurance. In my view, Paladins are leaders in group combat and single combat tanks. It seems appropriate that endurance would further those core concepts.
Agreed.
>>3. Smite seems like a wet noodle to me. From my experience, it appears Draw works better.
I also agree here. Smite was far improved in test, but I have stopped using it exclusively to use DRAW. Draw is just better. I'm at 50 charisma and have stopped training it for the forseeable future. As a paladin, I dont see the reason why when Draw hits more often and hits harder/
>>2. What spell/thing defines paladins nowadays?
DA.
Thats it I feel. Everything else more or less exists with other guilds. I would like HoW to be our defining spell, but its just not.
>>1. Yeah, I think someone should look into the post of "head of paladin guild". We are basically "Defense Against the Dark Arts" for weird/bad things happening to our GM's.
I laughed;)
That said to your points
>>10. Why does it feel like my paladin performs worse after 3.0 than before? I thought armor was better.
I disagree, its a buff, although I don't think Armor is really where it should be yet. Its improved but it feels lacking with lots of ranks. That said the way its scaled is vs the enemies skill, so once armor > enemy attack skill, it tends to drop off I feel in terms of how useful it is. That runs in line with offense modifiers affected damage though so that works.
>>9. Are more stance points really a bad thing? Did we really look at old HOW under new 3.0 before we changed it?
Yes, it was very unbalancing. I LOVED the old HoW, but it was way better than any other defensive buff in the game. That said I do not think the new HoW is very good. It was not designed in mind for a defense primary guild I feel in that
A) it only procs when you are hit
B) it only can proc once per cycle, and it has long cycles
The combination of this means its generally not very effective and I cant see using it over TR unless it need the bless effect. If issue A was changed to 'are attacked' with B remaining, it would be loads better.
>>8. Why do I already know three posters that will respond to this post? Why do they not realize that a pixie dies every time they reply to a post?
Was I one? I honestly waited a long time to say anything to this.
>>7. #TwoDefenseRule
Yep. I hate it to
>>6. I think a "trap glyph" seems really cool to me. If someone does something sneaky to a paladin (attack from hiding), it seems paladin'ish that something cool (and nasty) should happen to the attacker or something cool (and good) should happen to the paladin.
I think HoJ should be modified to do this. Frankly, almost no one steals anymore. The real evil is Necromancers now a days, not thieves...
>>5. I do not think people realize how limited paladins are with magic because it is really hard to draw a ton of mana as a magic tert.
Yes. Agreed. Stinks, but we are supposed to/already have armor perks to compensate. I think they could be better. Arm won shields are nice, but it be nicer if we could bash with them. Multi armor hindrance is more of a training item. If it were up to paladins we would only wear HP. The fact we train other armors is just for TDPS...Weapons serve different purposes, armor is a case of more is better for a paladin.
>>4. Endurance. In my view, Paladins are leaders in group combat and single combat tanks. It seems appropriate that endurance would further those core concepts.
Agreed.
>>3. Smite seems like a wet noodle to me. From my experience, it appears Draw works better.
I also agree here. Smite was far improved in test, but I have stopped using it exclusively to use DRAW. Draw is just better. I'm at 50 charisma and have stopped training it for the forseeable future. As a paladin, I dont see the reason why when Draw hits more often and hits harder/
>>2. What spell/thing defines paladins nowadays?
DA.
Thats it I feel. Everything else more or less exists with other guilds. I would like HoW to be our defining spell, but its just not.
>>1. Yeah, I think someone should look into the post of "head of paladin guild". We are basically "Defense Against the Dark Arts" for weird/bad things happening to our GM's.
I laughed;)
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 10:48 PM CDT
>But accurate.
But irrelevant; Rangers have even worse combat application of their magic, making thieves, rangers, traders (lets just ignore them), and barbs all limited in their anti-magic options. Barbs are probably a poor comparison given that they have a couple strong anti-magic capabilities, but each of those comes with considerable drawbacks, including all of which are based on the IF system, which limits them to what abilities they can use.
I'm just surprised to say that Paladins are weak to magic; most Paladins probably won't neglect their mentals, so, Pallies have buffs to Int, Wis, Disc, and two anti-stuns (AS and TR). Now, I'm not suggesting that magic isn't a potential weakness for Paladins, but I see this as part of the balancing act between guilds. A warrior or moon mage in a fight with a Paladin shouldn't get to melee and start swinging; they should rely on debuffs. But at least it's not a gaping wide open hole in Paladin effectiveness, and at least we do have ways to mitigate it.
>DFA spells and DFA cyclics are troublesome for Paladins as well.
This is also irrelevant because it is not just troublesome for Paladins. And against RoS, USOL, or any any other DFA (I don't even know what the status of DFA accuracy is anymore), a Paladin at least is likely in the best armor, rocking all the defensive buffs.
Frankly, it sounds like you're looking at guild weaknesses in the checks and balances game, and crying broken.
>Play one and get back with us.
I just started one. This is also irrelevant to the discussion.
But irrelevant; Rangers have even worse combat application of their magic, making thieves, rangers, traders (lets just ignore them), and barbs all limited in their anti-magic options. Barbs are probably a poor comparison given that they have a couple strong anti-magic capabilities, but each of those comes with considerable drawbacks, including all of which are based on the IF system, which limits them to what abilities they can use.
I'm just surprised to say that Paladins are weak to magic; most Paladins probably won't neglect their mentals, so, Pallies have buffs to Int, Wis, Disc, and two anti-stuns (AS and TR). Now, I'm not suggesting that magic isn't a potential weakness for Paladins, but I see this as part of the balancing act between guilds. A warrior or moon mage in a fight with a Paladin shouldn't get to melee and start swinging; they should rely on debuffs. But at least it's not a gaping wide open hole in Paladin effectiveness, and at least we do have ways to mitigate it.
>DFA spells and DFA cyclics are troublesome for Paladins as well.
This is also irrelevant because it is not just troublesome for Paladins. And against RoS, USOL, or any any other DFA (I don't even know what the status of DFA accuracy is anymore), a Paladin at least is likely in the best armor, rocking all the defensive buffs.
Frankly, it sounds like you're looking at guild weaknesses in the checks and balances game, and crying broken.
>Play one and get back with us.
I just started one. This is also irrelevant to the discussion.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 10:52 PM CDT
From what I've seen from spars, spar nights, and a fight with team bad guy in Rossman's, Paladins biggest weakness is Thieves. Roars and other debilitations can cause issues (though diminishing returns helps a TON there), but ambush slash is just demoralizingly powerful against us. Once the non-magic debils get put into diminishings I think we'll be a whole lot harder to stop as a group.
On the upside though, we've a potent suite of buffs, decent magic defences (at the cost of casting debilitations/TM, but I can suffer such), and a potent offence boosting combo with RW, RUE, and HES. If anything we're punished more by the soul system and skillsets then we are our guild abilities.
Samsaren
On the upside though, we've a potent suite of buffs, decent magic defences (at the cost of casting debilitations/TM, but I can suffer such), and a potent offence boosting combo with RW, RUE, and HES. If anything we're punished more by the soul system and skillsets then we are our guild abilities.
Samsaren
2DUMBARSE
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 10:56 PM CDT
>9. Are more stance points really a bad thing? Did we really look at old HOW under new 3.0 before we changed it?
Idunno if the Powers That Be did, but I tried +60 stance points during test. On my first character copy, my paladin was copied with the extra stance points from HOW. I was able to hunt one or two critter levels above the usual without any buffs. +60 stance points is definitely substantially more impactful in 3.0.
With all the neat tactics stuff being released, I'd really like a defending buff if we can't have a direct stance points buff. It would certainly help against things like shove, which Sebestyen touched on as being problematic, and I think it fits well within the paladin theme.
>a pixie
New HLC critter? Heh
Idunno if the Powers That Be did, but I tried +60 stance points during test. On my first character copy, my paladin was copied with the extra stance points from HOW. I was able to hunt one or two critter levels above the usual without any buffs. +60 stance points is definitely substantially more impactful in 3.0.
With all the neat tactics stuff being released, I'd really like a defending buff if we can't have a direct stance points buff. It would certainly help against things like shove, which Sebestyen touched on as being problematic, and I think it fits well within the paladin theme.
>a pixie
New HLC critter? Heh
NEELD
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 11:04 PM CDT
<< I tried +60 stance points during test.
Interesting. I am going to see if I can still do this in Test.
Madigan
Interesting. I am going to see if I can still do this in Test.
Madigan
PSX71
Re: Top Ten List
03/10/2013 11:12 PM CDT
>>>Tenacity isn't the best, MaF is, because it stacks with other stuff (on top of being more powerful).<<<
No, Tenacity is the best, Maf is very good but can easily be shut down. Maf does not last at all if you get multiple hits that even if they do close to no damage it will drain your charges. Also Maf takes huge cast to make it worth it and even if it stacks with other spells It still goes down fast. Another thing to note is that its not an on demand skill you can just turn on when you need.
I saw Tenacity in action and lets just say A well known Barb was getting backstabbed on the floor stunned, close to 10 times just rolling laughing his butt off by a pretty huge thief with lightX 10 hits no wounds at all, It did nothing to him in chain. Then same thief 3 hit Another pally that was buffed up wearing heavy plate armor, his maf got dropped with throwing knifes before he even came out of the ambush slash.
Don't get me wrong I have no problem with Tenacity, it has its place but that's an example of the best defensive ability not belonging to the armor prime guild and that is 100% fine, just share the love.
No, Tenacity is the best, Maf is very good but can easily be shut down. Maf does not last at all if you get multiple hits that even if they do close to no damage it will drain your charges. Also Maf takes huge cast to make it worth it and even if it stacks with other spells It still goes down fast. Another thing to note is that its not an on demand skill you can just turn on when you need.
I saw Tenacity in action and lets just say A well known Barb was getting backstabbed on the floor stunned, close to 10 times just rolling laughing his butt off by a pretty huge thief with lightX 10 hits no wounds at all, It did nothing to him in chain. Then same thief 3 hit Another pally that was buffed up wearing heavy plate armor, his maf got dropped with throwing knifes before he even came out of the ambush slash.
Don't get me wrong I have no problem with Tenacity, it has its place but that's an example of the best defensive ability not belonging to the armor prime guild and that is 100% fine, just share the love.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 12:03 AM CDT
>>But irrelevant; Rangers have even worse combat application of their magic, making thieves, rangers, traders (lets just ignore them), and barbs all limited in their anti-magic options. Barbs are probably a poor comparison given that they have a couple strong anti-magic capabilities, but each of those comes with considerable drawbacks, including all of which are based on the IF system, which limits them to what abilities they can use.
In fairness, speaking only from a position of skillsets, magic tert is less penalizing to barbarians. Still penalizing, and IF has it's own set of drawbacks, but barb abilities are specifically designed to cap potency quicker and integrity's not a concern as they cannot be dispelled.
>I saw Tenacity in action and lets just say A well known Barb was getting backstabbed on the floor stunned, close to 10 times just rolling laughing his butt off by a pretty huge thief with lightX 10 hits no wounds at all, It did nothing to him in chain. Then same thief 3 hit Another pally that was buffed up wearing heavy plate armor, his maf got dropped with throwing knifes before he even came out of the ambush slash.
Yeah, it's very good. We'll just have to agree to disagree though, Tenacity doesn't ablate but it's also not stackable.
In fairness, speaking only from a position of skillsets, magic tert is less penalizing to barbarians. Still penalizing, and IF has it's own set of drawbacks, but barb abilities are specifically designed to cap potency quicker and integrity's not a concern as they cannot be dispelled.
>I saw Tenacity in action and lets just say A well known Barb was getting backstabbed on the floor stunned, close to 10 times just rolling laughing his butt off by a pretty huge thief with lightX 10 hits no wounds at all, It did nothing to him in chain. Then same thief 3 hit Another pally that was buffed up wearing heavy plate armor, his maf got dropped with throwing knifes before he even came out of the ambush slash.
Yeah, it's very good. We'll just have to agree to disagree though, Tenacity doesn't ablate but it's also not stackable.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 01:46 AM CDT
Tenacity is also a meditation, which means the only way it's going to be up is if you put it up first. You can get a few spell buffs up in a fight; you can't meditate if you're engaged. For PvP purposes, that's a huge negative for all barb meditations.
>In fairness, speaking only from a position of skillsets, magic tert is less penalizing to barbarians. Still penalizing, and IF has it's own set of drawbacks, but barb abilities are specifically designed to cap potency quicker and integrity's not a concern as they cannot be dispelled.
Perhaps that's because Barbs have a pretty heavy restriction to what abilities they can have at any given time, and only the most outrageously maxed out of barbs (+800 Supernaturals) can run that number of abilities for more than a few cycles. Whereas, a Paladin with ~250 magics can run significantly more buffs affecting a significantly wider range of combat needs.
I think this GvG comparison is a waste of time, and that generally speaking, each guild has strengths and weaknesses intentionally. I'm just very surprised to hear some of the gripes that people are levying.
And I'm still wondering why 2handers + shield is no good for paladins; I'm loving it so far.
>In fairness, speaking only from a position of skillsets, magic tert is less penalizing to barbarians. Still penalizing, and IF has it's own set of drawbacks, but barb abilities are specifically designed to cap potency quicker and integrity's not a concern as they cannot be dispelled.
Perhaps that's because Barbs have a pretty heavy restriction to what abilities they can have at any given time, and only the most outrageously maxed out of barbs (+800 Supernaturals) can run that number of abilities for more than a few cycles. Whereas, a Paladin with ~250 magics can run significantly more buffs affecting a significantly wider range of combat needs.
I think this GvG comparison is a waste of time, and that generally speaking, each guild has strengths and weaknesses intentionally. I'm just very surprised to hear some of the gripes that people are levying.
And I'm still wondering why 2handers + shield is no good for paladins; I'm loving it so far.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 12:03 PM CDT
>Interesting. I am going to see if I can still do this in Test.
I think it was a bug with my initial copy. It didn't happen again in subsequent character copies but you might be able to ask a GM to give you 60 extra stance points.
I think it was a bug with my initial copy. It didn't happen again in subsequent character copies but you might be able to ask a GM to give you 60 extra stance points.
REWYN
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 12:10 PM CDT
Notably, unless you get jumped, meditations are a non issue for most pvp. You either know its coming, initiate it, or are initiated on. Unless its the last option, you can react to it.
As far as two handers, this is the issue.
A) Arm Worn shields perform poorly vs held. This is mild at first but as skill increases, the effectiveness seems more and more pronounced. Honestly I do not think the mechanics were designed to scale as they do, or built in mind with our guild and high ranks of shield. After a given point if your fighting anything hard, there is no reason to arm worn a shield.
B) The effect of hindrance on shield/two handers does not seem to be capped at a rank penalty deficit, so this too grows with your ranks and becomes more and more of a gap. Add this with item A and you have a situation in which you are very hampered defensively with arm wearing a shield and a two hander.
That being said, I think the issue is more on A. It be nice if paladins had some way to bring arm worns closer to the performance of held (maybe covering about half the current gap in protection).
Then again, I think I'd be happy if we got a 100th circle ability. It be nice if we got some sort of Last Stand Power, which seems pretty in line with our guild.
As far as two handers, this is the issue.
A) Arm Worn shields perform poorly vs held. This is mild at first but as skill increases, the effectiveness seems more and more pronounced. Honestly I do not think the mechanics were designed to scale as they do, or built in mind with our guild and high ranks of shield. After a given point if your fighting anything hard, there is no reason to arm worn a shield.
B) The effect of hindrance on shield/two handers does not seem to be capped at a rank penalty deficit, so this too grows with your ranks and becomes more and more of a gap. Add this with item A and you have a situation in which you are very hampered defensively with arm wearing a shield and a two hander.
That being said, I think the issue is more on A. It be nice if paladins had some way to bring arm worns closer to the performance of held (maybe covering about half the current gap in protection).
Then again, I think I'd be happy if we got a 100th circle ability. It be nice if we got some sort of Last Stand Power, which seems pretty in line with our guild.
REWYN
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 12:18 PM CDT
Personal "Top 10" list. No particular order
#1. Holy Weapons. Cornerstone ability for our guild, our capstone quest. No one uses them.
#2. Endurance Skill and what it will do. I have a good idea of what expertise will be, but at this point Endurance is this hazy cloud of 'something'.
#3. A Guild Liaison
#4. Cyclical TM/Debilitation Spell (damage + stops retreat).
#5. The supposed anti DFA spell or ability I have heard of for years.
#6. A 100th circle ability.
#7. Holy Warrior Improved. Outside of the bless effect, I can see no reason to ever use it over TR (which itself is balanced against numerous similar effects in 3.0. This is a case of HoW underperforming vs TR over performing).
#8. Warhorses
#9. Smite Effectivness vs Draw. I was not going to include this until Madigan made me remember this. As I noted earlier in the thread, I have removed smite entirely from my combat scripts in lieu of draw. Draw hits more often and harder with axes. I see no reason to use Smite despite a hefty investment in charisma.
#10. Holy Shields! I read this mentioned yesterday and honestly the idea has burrowed itself into my brain ^_^ Don't know what they would do, but I want them.
#1. Holy Weapons. Cornerstone ability for our guild, our capstone quest. No one uses them.
#2. Endurance Skill and what it will do. I have a good idea of what expertise will be, but at this point Endurance is this hazy cloud of 'something'.
#3. A Guild Liaison
#4. Cyclical TM/Debilitation Spell (damage + stops retreat).
#5. The supposed anti DFA spell or ability I have heard of for years.
#6. A 100th circle ability.
#7. Holy Warrior Improved. Outside of the bless effect, I can see no reason to ever use it over TR (which itself is balanced against numerous similar effects in 3.0. This is a case of HoW underperforming vs TR over performing).
#8. Warhorses
#9. Smite Effectivness vs Draw. I was not going to include this until Madigan made me remember this. As I noted earlier in the thread, I have removed smite entirely from my combat scripts in lieu of draw. Draw hits more often and harder with axes. I see no reason to use Smite despite a hefty investment in charisma.
#10. Holy Shields! I read this mentioned yesterday and honestly the idea has burrowed itself into my brain ^_^ Don't know what they would do, but I want them.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 12:38 PM CDT
>>A) Arm Worn shields perform poorly vs held. This is mild at first but as skill increases, the effectiveness seems more and more pronounced. Honestly I do not think the mechanics were designed to scale as they do, or built in mind with our guild and high ranks of shield. After a given point if your fighting anything hard, there is no reason to arm worn a shield.
For hunting I barely notice the difference, even in the upper end. PvP I've noticed a mild one but it could easily be a 'I think its better - therefore its better' deal too.
Samsaren
For hunting I barely notice the difference, even in the upper end. PvP I've noticed a mild one but it could easily be a 'I think its better - therefore its better' deal too.
Samsaren
REWYN
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 01:01 PM CDT
I believe the tests on effectiveness were posted about a year ago from some TF people. That said I have not pvped lately to tell you how pronounced the difference is for me at mid 500's. I imagine with lots of two handed primary paladins all rather upset about its effectiveness and using one handers in pvp though that the difference becomes rather pronounced. That said I dont know the ranges of skill in question, the tests done, etc. I can only presume that logically since we are talking about percentages (Hindrance from two handed weapons, shield protection acts a a multiplier on chance, etc) that as the numbers grow, so does the impact of disparities between those values. I know GM's want there to be a choice and a trade off when you choose one option over the other (otherwise there would be a BEST option), but my suspiscion is what was modeled in 2004 is not working in 2013.
NEELD
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 03:54 PM CDT
<<I think it was a bug with my initial copy. It didn't happen again in subsequent character copies but you might be able to ask a GM to give you 60 extra stance points.
Thanks for the heads up.
Madigan
Thanks for the heads up.
Madigan
NEELD
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 03:58 PM CDT
<<#1. Holy Weapons. Cornerstone ability for our guild, our capstone quest. No one uses them.
I use mine a ton, especially in PvP. For me it was all about the lack of refueling locations. All good for me now that I have an ICON. I think the task here is to make Icons more available (if they aren't already).
<<#5. The supposed anti DFA spell or ability I have heard of for years.
Outstanding catch. Love this spell idea. Would love it more if it was a glyph.
<<#6. A 100th circle ability.
Sadly, I have forgotten all about this.
Nice list.
Madigan
I use mine a ton, especially in PvP. For me it was all about the lack of refueling locations. All good for me now that I have an ICON. I think the task here is to make Icons more available (if they aren't already).
<<#5. The supposed anti DFA spell or ability I have heard of for years.
Outstanding catch. Love this spell idea. Would love it more if it was a glyph.
<<#6. A 100th circle ability.
Sadly, I have forgotten all about this.
Nice list.
Madigan
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Top Ten List
03/11/2013 05:40 PM CDT
Regarding a 100th circle ability, there's really only one guild that has a meaningful one. I'm not even sure if Rangers can fletch hunter's bows anymore, so there might be only one period.
It's a subjectively important circle, to be sure, but I would rather see Paladins get some general much-needed development rather than explicitly design an ability for circle 100.
It's a subjectively important circle, to be sure, but I would rather see Paladins get some general much-needed development rather than explicitly design an ability for circle 100.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Top Ten List
03/16/2013 07:20 PM CDT
>Smite
Think it would help if smite was a modified draw for slicing weapons rather than a modified slice? Sure, we wouldn't be able to use it as often as we do now but the benefit might be more perceivable.
Think it would help if smite was a modified draw for slicing weapons rather than a modified slice? Sure, we wouldn't be able to use it as often as we do now but the benefit might be more perceivable.
REWYN
Re: Top Ten List
03/16/2013 07:26 PM CDT
Hrm..I think it would be ideal if smite could work on all of the offensive melee commands (i.e slice, chop, thrust, lunge, draw, etc) but not the mild offense attacks (jab, feint).
So like...smite slice <target> etc.
Either way, after a night of soft testing in Warklin I'm pretty confident smite (51 charisma, full soul state, on a target I cannot miss at melee) is inferior, maybe even substantially inferior than draw. I'll probably move up the combat ladder soonish and test it on some other creature types, but its really kind of meh. Smite right now is just sad and I have to revert back into saying I cant see a reason for a young or old paladin right now to invest TDPS in charisma. Mentals and Physicals are just way more effective.
So like...smite slice <target> etc.
Either way, after a night of soft testing in Warklin I'm pretty confident smite (51 charisma, full soul state, on a target I cannot miss at melee) is inferior, maybe even substantially inferior than draw. I'll probably move up the combat ladder soonish and test it on some other creature types, but its really kind of meh. Smite right now is just sad and I have to revert back into saying I cant see a reason for a young or old paladin right now to invest TDPS in charisma. Mentals and Physicals are just way more effective.
NEELD
Re: Top Ten List
03/16/2013 10:58 PM CDT
It is not even really close between smite and draw based on what I am observing.
Madigan
Madigan
REWYN
Re: Top Ten List
03/17/2013 01:19 AM CDT
In what way? like smites way better or smites way worse?
NEELD
Re: Top Ten List
03/17/2013 10:07 AM CDT
Draw seems better to me. My statement of "it is not close" is probably not accurate. There are so many factors in combat, that I am only comfortable saying that it seems that smite is outperformed by draw based on what I am seeing.
Madigan
Madigan
