This is not 3.0 related, but in a way I feel it is. One of the biggest relics in the Paladin Guild is Holy Weapon. Its one of our capstone quest(back when 50 was a capstone I guess), and when it was released this was our big guild 'definitive awesome thing'. Its our holy avenger, our Excalibur, our Masamune, etc. People drooled over it when it was released..until they used it.

The system is so aged and bad I know NO paladins that use it actively, and I feel its a shame. I will be brief here, and I hope you will read and consider.

http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Holy_Weapon

1) You can only change this weapon out once per IRL year. This is a relic of very anal behavior from design in the past. Loose a weapon or want to upgrade, wait a year? What other guild has something like this.

2) Works of a very limiting charge system (more so given in 3.0 combat will take longer, and thus more hits) that can only be recharged at specific sites in the world. This power oddly came out around the same time as the Dunshade quest, so there was an item to short cut this effect which for most people actually meant a required item to use your holy weapon, as otherwise you are geo-restricted on what you can hunt since after about an hour your weapon needs a recharge. If your weapon looses charges, then you have to spend about two hours NOT using that weapon because you need to recharge it TWICE before it will work(altars have a one hour cooldown. Altars were again being pushed at this time cause they only had 45 minute cooldowns).

3) This is a big one. Holy weapons were blessed and were once the only way a paladin at those times could get a weapon blessed outside of a cleric (later we could punch things). Now with the new Holy Warrior in 3.0 this is moot. We can just bless our weapons whenever we want. This leaves a large part of the features utility as uneeded.

In general the system is archaic and makes one of our coolest potential guild abilities so daunting and user unfriendly that no one chooses to use it. Its full of this old game design that I see GM's actively moving away from that made every action anal and painful on the side of the player. If this was something more minor to our guild than I feel it wouldnt be worth pointing out, but I feel instead this is a major 'feature' of the paladin order that every paladin simply chooses to ignore because its just to daunting to use it without an ancient quest item.

Some ideas: Holy Weapon should become a Glyph in the same sense as other temporary powers, lasting up to a lengthy duration with a soul hit. Only one can exist at a time, but otherwise a Paladin is free to change between them as they see fit. Alternatively this could be a spell or a META effect if RUE and Holy Warrior are active. As to the effect of Holy Weapon, my recommendation would be to add an amount of fire damage to attacks which is enhanced when SMITE is used, as well as adding fire damage to our FST spell when the holy weapon is held in hand. Killing evil critters with our holy weapon might recover a small amount of our smite pool as well?

>contests

I personally have given up. I was one of the winners in the contest to design a new guild hall. It came up a few years ago and Dart said he'd look into it, but nothing was said after that. I was thinking of bringing it up after 3.0 settled down a bit.

Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer

Don't Holy Weapons also get an increase in to-hit and damage? Or is that just vs. undead and mostly a function of the bless?

My paladin is too young (and too obsessed with tailoring) to have a holy weapon yet, but when she does, I want her to be able to use it at will, all the time. I know which weapon and have some backstory for it. I'm just waiting on an alteration and a couple dozen circles. Not having one, I don't know if any of the proceeding ideas are any good (and all of them together would probably make it too easy), but here goes:

1) Allow the weapon to be INVOKED to turn it on or off. The weapon will still (if it does) maintain the increased to-hit and damage, but it won't use bless charges. Killing evil/undead things with it while in "off" mode could even cause the weapon to regain charges.

2) Let Alamhif's Sacrifice be castable on our weapon to burn a (chadatru?) favor to partially charge it in a hurry.

3) At least one charge altar in each province, please.

5) Craftable, enchantable charge icons. Extremely difficult of course, and maybe the enchantment would have to be learned through a quest.

6) I agree the once-a-year switching limit is kinda dumb. I feel like destroying the previous holy weapon is cost enough for getting a different one.

>>...Paladins are truly on the back burner.

I don't want to agree with you, but... sigh. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long for the Endurance skill (anything you can share about this BTW, GMs?), and hopefully it will be cool. I'd also like to see the Oane event get wrapped up before too long. On the bright side, the 3.0 spells and the way armor and new combat work really do a lot for the foundation of the guild, IMO.

A nice Band-Aid to make holy weapons more usable would be to remove the penalty for allowing your weapon to run out of charges. Currently, if you allow the weapon to run out of charges, it has to be recharged twice before you can use it again. It takes five minutes to recharge the weapon, and there is a one-hour timer between rechargings. If you make the mistake of using the weapon between those two rechargings, you have to start over.

This, combined with the scarcity of recharging locations, is an onerous system that discourages Paladins from using their holy weapons. (Who wants to count charges while hunting?) In my opinion, holy weapons should only require one recharging before being fully usable. Holy weapons that have run out of charges would continue to function as standard weapons until they are recharged.

I would also like to see more recharging locations and/or a release of additional portable recharging icons.

Lastly, I think that the holy weapon changing quest (which can be done once every 365 days) should not destroy the previous weapon. This would allow Paladins to use special weapons without worrying about losing them if they decide to change their holy weapons later.


>>Rewyn: You can only change this weapon out once per IRL year. This is a relic of very anal behavior from design in the past. Loose a weapon or want to upgrade, wait a year? What other guild has something like this.
If you lose it, you can't replace it. You have to have your old weapon in hand when you do the changing quest. This is why you should register your holy weapon if you haven't already done so.


>>Bisclavret: I know which weapon and have some backstory for it. I'm just waiting on an alteration and a couple dozen circles.

Under the current system, you may want to avoid using something irreplaceable like an altered weapon. If you ever want to change your holy weapon, the old one is destroyed in the process.

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Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!

Lots of great ideas.

I understand the desire for bandaids cause they seem easier, but I really feel the entire system needs to be thrown our and re imagined. Not to say my ideas for that are better (frankly they arnt, they are just shots from the hip) but I feel most aspects of holy weapon are just old.

1) Charges are punishing
2) Recharging is punishing
3) Bless is becoming irrelevant
4) Bonus accuracy is in general diminished in power in 3.0. Bonus damage is nice, but its hard to quantify what this actually is cause it does not seem reliant on any attribute.

Something more liberal, modern and i dont know..bad ass? When I get a holy avenger in a game like baulders gate I feel a sense of "ZMOG". The idea of a knight with a holy weapon to smite down evil is just a classic one, and its understandible why it was made out to be such a huge part of our guilds late game ability progress (as a note, paladins really stop getting anything unique really darn early compared to most guilds. Thats not a GvG thing, its just due to when we received our development and the circle ranges back then).

Anyhow I hope at least one GM notices this and takes a look over the system and considers the playability of something like this. I'm pretty confident if a census of paladins were taken checking for which have holy weapons and have used them last week it would be very very low(my guess would be less than 1% of eligible/active paladins).

>>Am I missing something? How is this becoming irrelevant?

http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Holy_Warrior_3.0

Also the general spell system with scrolls is becoming such that if a paladin wanted access to the bless spell, it would be pretty simple to do so.

If recharging is still an issue, maybe the effectiveness of the paladin holy weapon could be tied to soul state rather than needing 'recharged' at all. Higher soul state would make it even more effective, tanked soul could make it ineffective, maybe even stun you if you try to use it in this state.

This adds nothing to the conversation, but it has always annoyed me that Paladins get more spiffy weapon stuff (RUE, holy weapon) than Barbarians.

grumble grumble grumble

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Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance

even though much of the lore is connected to chatatru, i haven't had any problems with paladins i've played with favors from other-than-chadatru. <dwarves with kertigen, s'kra with hav'roth, etc>. Yes, you need to pay homage for certain rituals, but there is absolutely nothing REQUIRED about getting your favors from him.


<<The real thing DR needs is to get out there to the kids who actually read books.>>

<< I tend to view Paladins as champions of a specific deity that doesn't have to be Chadatru, whether or not the lore supports this or not. Basically the D&D version of Paladins. That said I would have no issue, I would find it kind of cool actually, if Paladins could more or less choose the deity that they champion for>>

This is exactly how I view Paladins and how I role-play my own. The suggestions themselves were just things I pulled off the top of my head as possibilities. I personally would not change my Paladin's deity to Urrem'Tier strictly for the pvp advantage. I tend to feel like each Paladin should adhere to a code that is their own, not necessarily mandated by the guild as a whole. Justice comes in many forms and to suggest that every paladin should be a steadfast beacon of blind justice tends to end in a bunch of characters that are simply carbon copies. The suggestion was to add flavor, not to make paladins more like clerics.

So the question is whether paladins are necessarily Lawful Good or could be Neutral Good.

I think threads got swapped here guys. This thread is about holy weapons and how terribly unusable they are. Not sure how Chadatru and Gods factor into the system design here.

I think the forums are screwy. Lets get this thread back on track.

Holy Weapons: Ridiculously anal system that no Paladin willingly utilizes, despite being a corner stone power for us and the apex of our 'quests' system.

A ways back there was a glitch where a non Paladin was able to pick the lock on the door leading to a quest puzzle room in the Guild on Mer'Kresh. While he was able to get in he couldn' get back out and since he wasn't a Paladin he couldn't activate the way to get back out. I showed up and got the Paladin portion done that he needed and we were able to just walk out the door. The drawback however was that I couldn't do the quest myself as it read me in a specific portion of the quest but without earlier parts that were needed to qualify. I'll chip in on my thoughts once I actualy get fixed which should be shortly, Maece said she was looking into the situation so I'm being patient.

Leucius

Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Possibly...

1) You should be able to change a holy weapon 'at will' with significant RT(60 seconds or more) when in a room with an Altar (any Altar in the game that works for Cleric stuff). New holy weapons start at a charge rate equal to the old holy weapon.
2) You should be able to use any Altar in the game to recharge a holy weapon. Praying at an alter should increase a holy weapon boost significantly.
3) I feel the charge model for mechanics isnt good and does not work well in 3.0 where killing something simply will take much longer. I would prefer that a holy weapon remain 'holy' for a period of time at full 'holyness' (maximum benefit) and then decay based off your soul state to a minimum 'holyness' (meaning at worst, a holy weapon is always going to be better in the hands of a paladin than a duplicate weapon that is not 'holy').
4) Paladins should be able to perceive their weapons to determine how potent the benefits of the holy weapon are.
5) Alamhif's Gift when 'cast weapon' will sacrifice favors to recharge a holy sword.
6) Praying to a pilgrimage badge will also recharge a holy sword, although the boost is small. Personal Altars/Icons boost far more significantly.
7) Killing 'evil' (undead, tainted, etc) creatures will charge a holy sword. Due to kill rates in 3.0 this should be balanced more to extend the life of a holy weapons charge instead of allowing for someone to 'perma' boost it.

>tied to a contest or quest reward

To be fair, I don't think any of the contest winners actually received their icons. I think one charging site in every Province would make it much more usable, and make the icons a nice rare thing.

Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer

I just think allowing it to be charged at any altar is a bit too easy, and makes the icons kind of underwhelming as a super rare item.

Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer

While Uncharged:
-Holy Weapons do holy damage (I see this as more of Bless Light).

Charging:
Have the Holy Weapon being specifically aligned to a certain god or goddess. At those altars the weapon can be minorly charged (a tenth a fourth, I don't know how long it takes to recharge using other sites but there should be RT and be more involved then other charging).

1) No uncharged penalty use.
2) higher maximum charge.
3) Not destroying when Holy Weapon is changed.

Definition of Holy Item: An Item that is exalted, touched by the divine, empowered with a lingering aspect of the Immortals. This is an item that is both more and less then something Blessed. More because it cannot simply cease having this aspect, less because while ever potent, it doesn't have the power, the overwhelming drive of an item Blessed. An Item that is Holy can still be Blessed (which may or may not make it even more potent than just regular blessing, maybe why it'd do Holy Fire?).

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

>>Would be cool if holy weapons worked as ritual foci in addition to whatever else they do.

Or targeted foci, whenever those get released.

Another Few concepts for thoughts:

While charged, but not using a Charge:
Light the Path: It basically simply can be used as a means to see in the dark, but is very noticable (it's like a weaponized torch). Further for combat (large battles) it can lead and inspire troops (they know where their Paladin leader is, they know where he is moving, he is showing the way, and his area about him is illuminated in holy light, so his actions are easily noticable and inspiring to his fellows).

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"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS

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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

<<While charged, but not using a Charge:
Light the Path: It basically simply can be used as a means to see in the dark, but is very noticable (it's like a weaponized torch). Further for combat (large battles) it can lead and inspire troops (they know where their Paladin leader is, they know where he is moving, he is showing the way, and his area about him is illuminated in holy light, so his actions are easily noticable and inspiring to his fellows).
>>

Paladins already have Glyph Of Light and the Lead ability which I feel duplicates these suggestions, however I like the overall idea of adding utility to holy weapons.

Frankly it be AWESOME if we could customize our Holy Weapon, maybe every 10 circles over 50 we can add a small utility aspect to our holy weapon to make it more personalized, from a list that are each tailored after one of the immortals.