I'm with you Profesie, but I think when I posted on the same subject not too long ago, I was told that Barbarian roars had not been brought in line with the global caps. As a result, the HUGE difference between the two abilities may be attributble to that fact.

However, as it stands, a group is better served being led by a barbarian at this point in time. Sad.

Madigan

I'd also like to see the you must be in a group as well as leading the group catch of lead removed to make it easier for playability

(awaits a random person to say, "How do you expect to lead someone thats not there?!")

New lead:

I would like to see lead become more like a area affect. It would boost everyone in the room not just those in the paladins group...

>(mages and non-mages are fighting invasion critters somewheres)

> PaladinX just arrived

> PaladinX begins to advance on one of the creatures.

> paladinX leads inspiring everyone in the room

> evil baddies die

the end

>Darned bunch of idiots who would join a paladin over a barbarian presently.

Well if all your cared about was having leet skillz maybe so. I feel there can be other reasons for joining a guild.

Michael.

Michael,

>>Well if all your cared about was having leet skillz maybe so. I feel there can be other reasons for joining a guild.

Ummmm.. I think you mis-read his post. He wasn't asking "why would someone join a Paladin GUILD". But rather, "why, during an invasion, would anyone want to join a Paladin to fight, when joining a Barbarian gives the group a MUCH larger combat boost".

Now, with that distinction, is it more beneficial to join a barbarian for roar boosts for group combat? At present, yes. Am I going to run around screaming "The sky is falling"? Heck no. I trust the GMs to do what they said.. bring all boosts "under the cap". So its taken a bit longer for the Barbarians than it did for our Lead. <shrug> These things happen.

I'm going to reserve comment until the caps are put in place for everyone.. and our HSN goodies are released and we get a chance to evaluate them.. should we start a pool now on how many "tweaks" it will take before they reach their final version? <grin>.

I predict a "WOW" initial release, followed by screams of anguish by others, followed by a drastic downtweak.. later followed by a minor uptweak to the final version. This is not due to any "psychic" powers of prediction.. just going by how most "updates" have been handled over the years.

Redarch

<<>Ummmm.. I think you mis-read his post. He wasn't asking "why would someone join a Paladin GUILD". But rather, "why, during an invasion, would anyone want to join a Paladin to fight, when joining a Barbarian gives the group a MUCH larger combat boost".

I hate it when i look stupid :-(

Michael.>>

Twenty lashes! ::grin::

As with Redarch, I'm curious how lead will stack up to roars after roars are brought under the global caps. I am sure there are arguments on both sides of the fence as to who's guild ability should be greater with a group. I certaintly think we have the better argument, but it will be fun to watch how it plays out behind the GM curtain because that is where the battle will be won or loss as to our continued function as combat leaders.

Madigan

To me, "combat leader" would be a guild speciailizing in a combat skill as their primary. Weapons, and Armor are the two COMBAT oriented skills. Barbs are weapons, and we are armor? You don't learn either by being out of combat? (grin) Well... being taught, teaching sissies! (ducks)


Good points Redarch. We really, don't have a lot of "group" buffs. We have Courage, and TR. Everything else has to be cast separately. It would be nice, if our spells functioned like ES does now. With higher mana and magic, it will spill over onto everyone in our group. As of right now, in order to group AS... prep cast prep cast prep cast prep cast!


And I don't see anyone here as "complaining" but offering constructive criticism to what we've noticed. The numbers and calculations to lead might look good on paper, but how many GM's do you see using lead on a day-to-day basis? Its merely pointing out the short-comings to one of our main abilities is all. There are complaints, constructive criticism, and discussion. I think the past few posts have swung back and forth between the last two. :)


Profesie

<My sword says "Boom Baby!" when I kill things. >

well my sword says "Boom Boom Dollar" when I kill things.


That's my 82 Cents and I don't care if you don't want a damn Nickel

~Bombmaster Blasword

Ok, Let's start with a couple of assumptions:

1) Combat buffs may NOT break the "caps" (whatever those might be).
2) Lead will NOT go back to what it was before because it busted the caps.

So, let's clean the slate and come up with some ideas for our P-Team.

Assuming that we ARE meant to be "combat leaders".. ie. the ones that folks want to flock to and join when big bad things invade, what should we have that meets the assumptions above? Here are some ideas that occur to me. Feel free to blow holes in these.. tell me where I've been smoking samatak, etc. I would "prefer" however that you actually offer constructive ideas/recommendations/things you would change rather than "that stinks" or "you folks can't do that".

a) A modified Group Courage:We need a courage that ISN'T watered-down to nothing if you get more than 4 or 5 folks joined to you. Maybe a courage that boosts vitality by a "percentage". How we calculate the percentage is open for debate but my initial idea is, the percentage boost between current vit level and "cap" is affected by the PM level of the caster, regardless of the number of folks joined. A paladin with 300 PM would boost the group to 30% of the difference between one's current vit (say the "cap" is the equivalent of 70 stamina and the person in the group has 10 stamina.. that leaves 60 stamina equivalent left to be "filled") and capped level. So.. in our example, that person who joined the paladin with 300 PM get's a 30% boost towards the cap.. so for a 10 stamina person, they get the equivalent of having 40 stamina. A Paladin with 50 PM gives a 5% boost, etc. That way, everyone that joins gets a boost.. and there's an advantage to joining a more skilled paladin regardless of circle..and no one breaks the cap.

b) A group balance boost, a TR that actually boosts the group to incredibly balanced and it lasts for longer than the cast RT. I'm willing to take just about any length of time.. so long as it lasts longer than it takes to close to melee <mutter>.

c) How about a combat "charge" maneuver. Everyone that's joined to a paladin closes to melee 3 times as fast as others who try to advance solo. Who knows.. maybe we'd actually be able to get close enough to swing our sword at least once or twice before a caster or archer took out the invader for a change?

Any or all of these could definitely make it more likely for others to WANT to join a paladin to attack things during an invasion.

Redarch

Slaris,

>>How about a guild ability that paladins just advance quicker.

Such a thing has been announced and listed on our "proposed" spell list for a long time. I do expect such a thing to happen... eventually. Who knows, it might even be part of the hinted offensive and defensive maneuvers Rod gave teasers about. And those are supposed to come during the HSN releases in the next few months. I'm just proposing that others who join a paladin's group when this effect/maneuver/ability is in use.. get to advance quicker too.

I think you and I are approaching this from different directions.

My approach is "What can we add to the Paladins to make OTHER citizens want to join him/her during intense battle such as invasions". Yours appears to be "what should a paladin have to increase their hunting ability, solo or in groups".

Not faulting you, or saying you don't have valid points, because you do (30 point stat jump for a spell cast IS kinda out there.. shoulda looked at my numbers better before making things up for an example). Its just that I'm trying to approach this from a "group combat during invasions" angle. Once we have some ideas.. we really DO need to check them against the normal day-to-day ways that paladins could use them.. but I'm trying to think of what would make us that "Shining beacon, inspiring all who follow to do their utmost to defeat the foe" that makes folks JUMP to join a Paladin when they enter the room during an invasion and not so much "How do we make day-to-day hunting more effective".

Redarch

Slaris,

I totally agree with your viewpoint of needing tools and things to help us in combat generally. If it helps a group hunting, fine.

And you kind of got ahead of me, because that was going to be my next thing. After we had generated some ideas for the P-team and others to consider which would makes us the type of person others facing daunting combat would WANT to join, I was going to move on to ideas about solo hunting/small group, day-to-day buff ideas.

But since you started on that already....

>>I hope it is an ability - not a glyph, not a spell, just a flat out option using advance or engage -- advance creature being normal, advance creature quick being the zip to melee.

Reading between the lines of what Rod said at the last Guild Meeting, I think that's why he kept calling it an offensive and defensive "maneuver". He was rather careful NOT to call them spells or glyphs. Maybe I'm putting my own desires into this interpretation, but that's the idea I took away.. these would be things "inherent" in being a paladin, and not based on magic/glyphs/etc. At this point.. we'll just have to wait and see.

>>Minimally, I hope it workes something like that and with a bit of luck that can extend to a group, or at least to those in a group that are already advancing - so empaths in a group don't end up at melee with the baddies.

Ohh.. good point. This ability, if it did extend to the group, should NOT just jump everyone in the group to melee.. or we'd get a lot of "battle empaths" killed when the darvenger turned to face the empath <squish>. That seems a reasonable compromise.. only those in the group that choose to advance.. get to melee faster. <nods>

>>That way hopefully it integrates easily with engagement, and just jumps past pole range. I would like it to be an option, however, and not hard coded to always be on or off.

Again, we are brain-storming and tossing out ideas. Its up to the P-team to determine if it is a)feasible within the code and b)appropriate for a Paladin. Who knows.. maybe one of our off-the-wall ideas might trigger something that THEY come up with because they are more knowledgeable in the code and what can be done. So far, I think we both have come up with some possibilities. I'm hoping we get more input from others for the P-team to consider.

>>How does a paladin know what tactics to use if some spells cannot be used, except in trial and error mode?

Ohh.. I agree. You sound much like Rock did. The only way to LEARN how to effectively lead in combat.. is to "lead in combat". Gather friends.. fight stuff that's a bit challenging for you solo and experiment with spells/abilities/glyphs and determine what works best in what situations. I'm not expecting some "type secret cheat code here" kind of ability to boost the Paladin to capped performance.. causing all the populace to gather and watch in awe. And it is up to US to spend the time, blood, and coin to test and learn how to do this in groups. Right now however, it is difficult to find folks willing to group to hunt.. at least at my level. I assume the same problem exists for all Paladins. The others need to know there IS a definite advantage to "over-hunting and surviving", which gives them incentive to seek a paladin to form a hunting group for better training, better coin, and higher chance of survival. That's not the case as I see it today.

>>In the bigger invasions, my skills are going to relegate me to a dragger glypher

See, this is the key. Those folks who are close to the line like you, should WANT to find another paladin to join.. or get others to join YOU because the group boosts then allow all of the group to survive better than each member in the group could solo. Unfortunately.. about the time you gather enough folks.. cast enough spells to boost everyone.. and finally close to melee.. the critters are already dead. We need to get the other guilds to WANT to join us.. use their group boosts to add to ours and make a combat team that rolls through Cyclops and Mammoths and such as if they were leucs. Sure, there will always be the few who can kill everything going solo.. for a bit, and that's fine for them. That's not what we Paladins are about in my opinion. But before we will actually GET folks to join us when we call out on the battlefield.. they have to be reasonably sure that they WILL get a boost/advantage if they join us.. otherwise.. they'll go on about their business solo as they do now.

Redarch

Madman,

>>You asked one particular question based on my rant/post concerning paladin combat leaders.

Yep, you made one comment, that triggered me to respond in a half-kidding way.. but then led me to hi-jack your comment and turn it into a discussion on what we think MIGHT be worthwhile combat leader tools/abilities.

Feel free to read through my and Slaris' ramblings and pipe in with any suggestions/additions/rejections of our brain-storming.

I'm really hoping we can trigger something that makes the GMs and/or P-Team rub their chins thoughtfully, thinking "We can't do that.. but maybe we could....."

Thoughts/ideas/creativity... its not just limited to the P-Team or GMs.. we all need to give input/reasonings. Obviously they are the ones that know what can and can't be done.. but we might just get them moving in a previously unconsidered direction that we will like.

And even if nothing ever comes of it.. it'll help us all generate what WE think we should have <grin>

Redarch

This kinda just hit me when I read someone say "in order to LEAD IN COMBAT you need to practice LEADING in combat...

Would it be possible.. to make lead less of an ability... but a skill? with associated verbs etc. Make it a Paladin only Lore skill... and give us a set of abilities that teach leadership... and have tactical advantages in combat... not sure what they could be... BUT... you think that could work?

When I look at it there really is only so far you can go with boosters etc. since the cap system now exists. It is hard to make something be a "hands down" premium boost when other abilities all approach the caps in one way or another. When looking at boosters you also can not, or should not seperate out the effects of area effect abilities etc. In ways I see those right now as circumventing the cap system. Same with area effect magic resistance.

To gain the most bang we either need area effect leadership abilities that cause rt's and stuns to foes as well as offer defensive area effect features such as shield wall etc. Further the expansion into tactics would also provided the best results, where by use of special tactics you gain a playable advantage on a group of foes.

The issue at it's crux is the factness that essentially every guild is developing some form of area effect and or group ability system. In light of that it is playably difficult to create anything in the game that is going to make paladins shine as those you want to be joined to. Unless, we develop the BASF model, where we enhance other guilds group and area effect abilities. So we make the Roar stronger, the spell longer or more accurate, the ability more focused and successful ie snipe etc.

Daython

>Anyone remember being able to announce that you were casting courage and having people run to join up? If it is an intended design logic for paladins to be leaders then we need an undisputed benefit in order to attract "followers". I don't see that happening to any large extent with our current spells and lead ability

I do not believe leading is only about stats and skills. I believe it is more about how you carry yourself as a leader. That said i have no problem getting folk to join me in battle. Its not only about bonuses and stuff its about knowing the guy leading you will have your back, Its knowing that your not following someone who gona get taken down first hit. There are many reasons, and not all of them are about stats and bonuses and skills etc.

Michael.

>Its the "will have your back" part. If our boosts no longer give the kind of boost that lets a 40th circle person fight alongside you and stay alive.. I go wading into battle, doing fine, then the creature turns to poor 40th circle ranger.. kills him in one shot.. and I'm there looking at his body going "Ohh.. gee, sorry about that." I'd rather not have to shout "Join me for battle!! Ohh.. but make sure you are near 60th circle and can stand toe-to-toe with these thing because I can't be sure I can keep you alive".

There is a certain amount of common sense as well, even with my lead you should not expect a 40th circle fella to keep up (i know these are just examples) lead does give significant bonuses, but it will never be as it was . Most things will never be as they were. everyone except barbs has been downtweaked not just the paladins, and barbs will get whats comming too and it will be thier turn to complain.

I was very disapointed with the new lead untill i trained up some charisma. Now i am not so disapointed i find that lead provides a significant boost, sure its not like it used to be, but its significant none the less. I would like to see it do more, as in different kind of bonuses sure. But the way it is seems fairly fair and seems to get stronger the bigger you get and the more charisma and stuff you get.

Michael.

I don't deny that leadership is often an intangible skill brought by the player. But that should not be the end all, story is over. The guild is described as a leadership guild. The guild leader speech mackes that pretty apparrant. Yet the tools to be able to lead are either surpassed or nonexistent. Essentially in the seven years of the game there has been no tactical change whatsoever to combat. Get better position, better balance, have enough skill to hit and you win. There is no flanking manuever, no defensive group posture etc etc. Essentially no playable feature to use for us other than type lead and yell orders, drag if we must, advance the right creature etc. It isn't that complicated.

So, telling us we are the leadership guild but not really having the tools to do so is analogous to telling the Barbs they are melee weapon masters then making weapon learning tert for them. Sure it can be overcome if you really work hard at it, but the system surely is not making it any easier, in fact the system is making it harder.

It is becoming harder to lead in combat on essentially two grounds. One is our own mortality in combat that leaves us exposed to magics etc that we do not have strong defenses for coupled with the proliferation of group and area effect abilities and magics of other guilds. The second is the social aspect of the game that finds more players playing in a individualized first person shooter concept of the game rather than understanding how to work as a team to achieve goals. The hardest and longest part of leading on a large scale during a war or invasion is just getting people to be quiet, listen and actually do what you suggest they do. It consumes an enormous amount of time and energy to really get folks to understand and committ the time to practice and learn.

Honestly, I don't see the socail dynamic changing much in the game. It will tend to degenerate more than recuperate unless changes are made in the game systems. Such as us gaining some wow factor leading capabilities that promote group play over singular play. Even when you examine hunting grounds I can easily say 95% are designed in such a way that individual play is more rewarding. Sure there are things like gen rates and such that are effected by having more individuals in an area, but not necessarily in the same group. If there is nothing markedly better to be gained by joining a Paladin in an invasion than you roaming the fields on your own then people will tend to roam.

I have demonstrated before to players what can be achieved with group cooperation in combat, but at this point it is more like an evangelism mission of convincing than a known feature of the game.

Daython

Magdar,

>>NOT BEEN DOWNTWEAKED! Dragon was castrated, not down tweaked. Dance times were KILLED.

Believe me, we feel your pain <said with a rueful, downcast attempt at a sincere expression> Your reaction is almost EXACTLY what folks expressed here when LEAD was "brought within CAPS" rules. From our experience, I would say.. post exactly how long your abilities last.. how much of a boost you get or don't get.. and give the GMs time. In a bit.. they'll nudge yer abilities back up a notch so they are better than they are now and folks will stop yelling. Of course.. they'll be NO where near what they were but, after the initial "gutting" of an ability.. the slight uptick feels like an improvement. Such seems to be the standard method of operation for any change in the Realms.. totally GUT something.. let folks scream and shout and cry.. then slightly uptweak .. so there appears to be an improvement and folks stop screaming as loudly.

Now, I think Daython has exactly hit it on the head. So long as combat is geared as it is, fighting as individuals will be and continue as the "norm". With that, there is no incentive for people to work as a team in combat. And without teamwork, there are no "groups to lead" into combat. All you have is a collection of individuals doing what they want.

What's the solution? Well, I doubt there will be a major rewrite of the combat system to put in group combat skills or leader abilities to direct folks.. and really, while I see Daython's point, I'm not sure I'd want to be the one yelling "Rangers go that way, Mages do this, Clerics.. cast XYZ" in the heat of combat. Maybe if they made critters teach ALL members of a group better if the group hunted "above" the individual members skills.. within a certain range to keep from "twinking" the youngsters. That is what I liked about some of the other games out there.. if ya want to hunt solo, you can.. but you don't learn as much or as fast as you would in a group of like skill levels hunting things much harder than the individuals could face. At least then, you had folks ACTIVELY seeking to form groups to hunt.. which also generated friendships.. and also let ya know who the twits were that couldn't be counted on.. which got them ignored and shunned.

Could something like this be implemented? <shrug> Only the GMs know. But until there is an "advantage" to forming a group.. our "ability" to be combat leaders is ... moot.

Redarch

Daython,

*pokes ya back* I know you said that's what we have now.. and I was agreeing with you.. that is just pure chaos as it currently stands.

>>A simple application of a group tactic in chaos was the suggestion I made where we can highlight a target to be hit. As in we glyph a critter then all folks would need do is AIM or TARGET <insert some new keyword here>.

Interesting idea with some real possibilities. However, as it stands today, by the time you traced the glyph on 3rd.. no.. 4th.. no.. 6th critter (as the swarm rolls in).. and before you could call out.. Rangers on First target.. that target would be dead due to 8 other folks in the room, not in the group casting one-shot killer spells at it or popping outta hiding to shoot an arrow clean through its head. So it gets back to the original question.. where is there an advantage to being IN a group with a paladin as it stands today in chaos combat? Everything I see seems to indicate, there isn't one, and that's why you have so much individualism and chaos.

But, if we could implement your earlier suggestion of the BASF Paladin, who's presence makes those JOINED to him better.. better bow shooters.. better casters.. better at evading, etc.. a small amount, under the caps, but at least noticeable (just throwing out a number for discussion, but assume you get a 5% boost in all battle skills/weapon/evasion/shield/parry/tm/pm).. then maybe we'd have a start on getting folks to WANT to find a paladin to join in the heat of battle. For right now, they do as good if not better as a cluster of individuals.

Redarch

One of the biggest things that help with a paladian leading into battle is familiarity. The last two invasions i fought in, I fought solo because i could not find paladian that was willing to undertake leading a group. Usually it is not a problem but i was in the crossing <unfamiliar surroundings for my character>. That being said, most of us non Paladians will follow a paladian into battle that we would walk away from solo. Basically some of us feel like we need someone to lead when the times are at the darkest.

I do understand your disappointment with your abilities taking a serious hit and I do sympathize with you, I know it hurt you and hurts the rest of us that are used to following you into battle. To me it means we have to depend more on one another and less riding so hard on the shoulders of our leader anymore. It does not mean we don't need or want you leading though. You take Madigan leading the group, he will ask the folks there if they be interesting in help defend the town or route some invadin force. as they join up they all contribute their skills and abilities to the group. I can cast Major Physical protection and boost everyone in the group's evasion about 40 to 50 ranks or better. a barb can roar that blood lust roar, a bard can break out in a blood rousin chant. clerics and warrior mages can help take out ranged attackers/undead or throw the balance of tougher things. Barbs and the leader and the other paladians engage at melee while snipers and bowman take well places shots to keep the ones off there back and provide aid against ranged attackers. add in an empath and maybe a moonie or two and you basically have a war party that is ready for anything. I know the tactics is something you guy are very familiar with, but the point is NONE OF THIS WORKS without you leading and inspiring us with a bit of courage reguardless if you CAST courage or use LEAD. Without some to put it togeather and stand the line, all you have is a bunch of dead folks and maybe a couple of folks folks that made it to inviso fast enough to run.

I would love to see the number of folks in the group effect lead and maybe courage also. Not diluting courage like a large group normally does but the larger the group the paladian is leadin the stronger and longer the courage will last. With Lead maybe have it grouped sort of in numbers? basic lead like it is now, add 3 or 4 followers and increase it, the larger the numbers in the group the stronger the lead should be. If a Paladian is leading a large force in an invasion his courage should push the caps just by the number of folks he is leading. With Lead if your leading 25 folks into battle, let the ability reflect on the force your leading into battle. Push it with larger groups to where it is pushing the global caps. Also maybe a group glyph or spell or lead ability that boost the reflexes of the whole group when used by the leader to reflect the increased defensive ability that should be gained by following a true combat leader into battle?

Cadderrly,
PS sorry to be so longwinded

Phanton,

>>So maybe our role in the leading might have changed slightly in my view, now I figure that I can be the leader that will stand up to the critter (instead of having the critter face a leather wearing moon mage and kill him in one shot) while the premier attacking guilds can kill it. It's a good rp option in my mind, I stick to the defending side, I use the best of my skills (defenses) and I can still have people in my group following 'my lead'.

See, that USED to be our "part" in group combat. We'd be the ones to get to melee first.. stand there and keep the critter(s) occupied and surviving while the premier killers (mages/barbs/rangers/etc) took them out. Worked well.. until the change that let the critters stop facing the first person and change facing to someone else. And that's my biggest problem with current group combat. I gather a group.. charge into combat.. get to melee and survive fine.. but then the barbarians in the group hit melee also and the critter changes facing and smacks through their evasion and leather and kills them in one hit, switch to the next, a mage in chain, and pow.. soon I'm standing there, still alive while my group is laying dead around me. Maybe an "ability" to lock a critter's focus on US, so the critter does NOT change facing? Heck, if we could just get THAT.. I wouldn't miss LEAD or huge group courages for 4+ hours like we had during the Gorbesh war.

Redarch