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Redarch,
I love the idea you brought up. Maybe we could have some sort of ability like lead..but not another glyph. That would get us to stay facing the critter no matter what they do. It would be also a good tool for guarding and stuff like that. The reasoning could be that us as leaders and having knowledge on the battle field, could circle around the critter being the first foe on their way no matter what.
That would be neat.
Phanton
ANDRE-BELTRAME
C-TOM
Re: Lead comparison
04/26/2003 01:51 PM CDT
<<lock a critter's focus on US...>>
Perhaps this could be added into Trothfang's Rally.
Chestham
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
Perhaps this could be added into Trothfang's Rally.
Chestham
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
EAGLECLAW
Re: Lead comparison
04/26/2003 08:08 PM CDT
Chestham,
>>Perhaps this could be added into Trothfang's Rally.
All else being equal, I'd rather NOT have to cast a spell to lock a critter's focus on me. Why must everything "neat" be spell-based? This could just as easily be a "natural" paladin ability or added to an existing glyph.. say "Glyph of Ease" as it makes you able to move easier and remain face-to-face with the critter or "Glyph of Light", since that makes you so "noticeable" with all those orbs of light spinning around you that the creature is focused on you only.
Redarch
>>Perhaps this could be added into Trothfang's Rally.
All else being equal, I'd rather NOT have to cast a spell to lock a critter's focus on me. Why must everything "neat" be spell-based? This could just as easily be a "natural" paladin ability or added to an existing glyph.. say "Glyph of Ease" as it makes you able to move easier and remain face-to-face with the critter or "Glyph of Light", since that makes you so "noticeable" with all those orbs of light spinning around you that the creature is focused on you only.
Redarch
OLDTIMER
Re: Lead comparison
04/27/2003 05:26 AM CDT
Hmm, pondering on courage a bit. I like the playability factor of courage and how folks can walk away after you cast it, however, at the same time conceptually that just seems a bit off. I don't think that that part of courage should change, but I think there is an aspect that could be enhanced.
What made me think of it is how poison pulses on your health state, eventually wearing down and bleeders getting worse etc. Well, to encourage staying with the group how about if courage pulsed? Keep a baseline strength to it, but then add to it. We could add some key tactic words to managing the pulsing fervor of courage. For instance, someone lands a killing blow in our group, that person should get a boost to their courage for a period of time that say enhances not just stamina now but a mild boost to offense. A paladin could get messaging sensing the overall morale of the group from this. Once, morale goes to a certain point of success, like no stunned people during a time, several kills in the group, you could say do something like oh ... how about fervor... Fervor would channel the groups success to everyone in the group giving an offensive boost. The keyword would cost nothing for a paladin to use since it is through success that the skills are being channeled. But let's say a few are getting smacked around in your group and you sense the group morale is low. You do a rally which costs soul power like lead and also proportional to how bad the morale is. It would give a defensive boost and also allow retreating for members of the group to be easier.
Ponders, hmm ... the more I think on it the more I like the conceptual framework of making our group leadership into a dynamic feature. Maybe a new glyph that would cover this or have it be innate. Could even add cool features to this... say the group has been succeeding very well, then the paladin gets killed.... if the morale was high enough a new state would be entered, Fallen Hero, that would transmit a jolt of fervor to the group for breif but intense skill gain to defend and fight for the body of the leader. If morale was quite low perhaps, Flee and Scatter, which individuals would have to past a fear test or would flee the combat area, brief hit as well to offensive and defensive skills for the group.
In essence this would be a much more dynamic version of the BASF concept that would allow us hooks for modifying the performance into a fully tweaked fighting force.
Daython
What made me think of it is how poison pulses on your health state, eventually wearing down and bleeders getting worse etc. Well, to encourage staying with the group how about if courage pulsed? Keep a baseline strength to it, but then add to it. We could add some key tactic words to managing the pulsing fervor of courage. For instance, someone lands a killing blow in our group, that person should get a boost to their courage for a period of time that say enhances not just stamina now but a mild boost to offense. A paladin could get messaging sensing the overall morale of the group from this. Once, morale goes to a certain point of success, like no stunned people during a time, several kills in the group, you could say do something like oh ... how about fervor... Fervor would channel the groups success to everyone in the group giving an offensive boost. The keyword would cost nothing for a paladin to use since it is through success that the skills are being channeled. But let's say a few are getting smacked around in your group and you sense the group morale is low. You do a rally which costs soul power like lead and also proportional to how bad the morale is. It would give a defensive boost and also allow retreating for members of the group to be easier.
Ponders, hmm ... the more I think on it the more I like the conceptual framework of making our group leadership into a dynamic feature. Maybe a new glyph that would cover this or have it be innate. Could even add cool features to this... say the group has been succeeding very well, then the paladin gets killed.... if the morale was high enough a new state would be entered, Fallen Hero, that would transmit a jolt of fervor to the group for breif but intense skill gain to defend and fight for the body of the leader. If morale was quite low perhaps, Flee and Scatter, which individuals would have to past a fear test or would flee the combat area, brief hit as well to offensive and defensive skills for the group.
In essence this would be a much more dynamic version of the BASF concept that would allow us hooks for modifying the performance into a fully tweaked fighting force.
Daython
ASHAMAN1
Re: Lead comparison
04/27/2003 07:17 AM CDT
Daython, don't take the thinkin cap off, ever. Nice idea sir, very nice.
Going with that, you'd have to toss in soul checks, checking soulstate(not too big an issue I hope), perhaps add a facet to TR to add to this, maybe small but frequent balance boosts, instead of one big cast.(Heck, turn it into a matrix style spell, similar idea to halo, first cast sets the strength of the balance boost, continued casts add to its frequency/durability)
I think a spell/power like that, and the one above would tie in rather well with some of the tactial ideas. Would bring back the wow factor of paladins, considering we'd be the guild for that kind of stuff(Or bloody well better be the guild for it)
Samsaren Remlane
Going with that, you'd have to toss in soul checks, checking soulstate(not too big an issue I hope), perhaps add a facet to TR to add to this, maybe small but frequent balance boosts, instead of one big cast.(Heck, turn it into a matrix style spell, similar idea to halo, first cast sets the strength of the balance boost, continued casts add to its frequency/durability)
I think a spell/power like that, and the one above would tie in rather well with some of the tactial ideas. Would bring back the wow factor of paladins, considering we'd be the guild for that kind of stuff(Or bloody well better be the guild for it)
Samsaren Remlane
C-TOM
Re: Lead comparison
04/27/2003 08:45 AM CDT
Red,
Because TR is a group-based spell designed to maintain an offensive edge. Because I don't think any of our current Glyphs fit the mold of your idea. Mayhaps one day Uthmor's Manuever will be released. Could be a good place to encompass your idea. Glyphing UM causes critters to recognize that the Paladin is its/their foremost threat and must be dealt with first, keeping said critter(s) facing the Paladin. Even with JoeBob the Barb whacking them upside the head from their flank, or TreeHuggy the Ranger making them look like a pin-cushion from missile.
Chestham
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
Because TR is a group-based spell designed to maintain an offensive edge. Because I don't think any of our current Glyphs fit the mold of your idea. Mayhaps one day Uthmor's Manuever will be released. Could be a good place to encompass your idea. Glyphing UM causes critters to recognize that the Paladin is its/their foremost threat and must be dealt with first, keeping said critter(s) facing the Paladin. Even with JoeBob the Barb whacking them upside the head from their flank, or TreeHuggy the Ranger making them look like a pin-cushion from missile.
Chestham
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
EAGLECLAW
Re: Lead comparison
04/27/2003 12:31 PM CDT
Daython,
>>I like the playability factor of courage and how folks can walk away after you cast it, however, at the same time conceptually that just seems a bit off.
Actually, this reminds me of something Damissak said when we first complained about the "downtweak" to courage. I'm not one of those who saves all GM posts to regurgitate later, but his words were along the lines of "Well? Wouldn't you EXPECT that a boost given for being in a Paladins group would be lessened if/when the person left the group after the cast?" If that is an accurate paraphrase of what he posted, and it was intended to hint about courage being more effective if the group remained together after the cast and go into combat as a group.. then maybe Damissak already considered your point?
However, I do love the idea you put forth about "pulsing" boosts from it or any of our other "group boost" abilities. Boost is cast, group disbands.. everyone gets a "normal" boost as it exists now. But, cast the boost.. group remains together.. and the spell can "pulse" for the duration giving a "growing" boost for that duration.. to all. A paladin alone shouldn't get the pulses.. and only the folks in the group at the initial cast gets the pulses.. has some real possibilities. Now.. if only we could stop that silly "diluting" effect of more folks in the group. Seems to me.. the larger the group the more "mob mentality" feedback you would get.. sort of each in the group "encouraging" the others to exceed their normal limits. I still look back with nostalgia about the great "Rock mass courage" casts during the Gorbesh war... back when he'd gweth he was casting and 40+ folks would run in to join. Maybe we could go back to .. the more joined.. the longer the duration, even if the total boost was capped at some low level. Current cap at "over an anlas" is just sad.
Redarch
>>I like the playability factor of courage and how folks can walk away after you cast it, however, at the same time conceptually that just seems a bit off.
Actually, this reminds me of something Damissak said when we first complained about the "downtweak" to courage. I'm not one of those who saves all GM posts to regurgitate later, but his words were along the lines of "Well? Wouldn't you EXPECT that a boost given for being in a Paladins group would be lessened if/when the person left the group after the cast?" If that is an accurate paraphrase of what he posted, and it was intended to hint about courage being more effective if the group remained together after the cast and go into combat as a group.. then maybe Damissak already considered your point?
However, I do love the idea you put forth about "pulsing" boosts from it or any of our other "group boost" abilities. Boost is cast, group disbands.. everyone gets a "normal" boost as it exists now. But, cast the boost.. group remains together.. and the spell can "pulse" for the duration giving a "growing" boost for that duration.. to all. A paladin alone shouldn't get the pulses.. and only the folks in the group at the initial cast gets the pulses.. has some real possibilities. Now.. if only we could stop that silly "diluting" effect of more folks in the group. Seems to me.. the larger the group the more "mob mentality" feedback you would get.. sort of each in the group "encouraging" the others to exceed their normal limits. I still look back with nostalgia about the great "Rock mass courage" casts during the Gorbesh war... back when he'd gweth he was casting and 40+ folks would run in to join. Maybe we could go back to .. the more joined.. the longer the duration, even if the total boost was capped at some low level. Current cap at "over an anlas" is just sad.
Redarch
EAGLECLAW
Re: Lead comparison
04/27/2003 12:35 PM CDT
Chestham,
Ohhh, ok, I see your point now. If we could modify TR so it "pulsed" in a way like Daython mentioned, boosting balance each time it pulsed.. AND focuses the attacker's attention so it wouldn't swap over to someone else in the group.. then it would make that a spell that I would use in invasions, unlike simply relying on Courage, DA, and AS as I do now.
Redarch
Ohhh, ok, I see your point now. If we could modify TR so it "pulsed" in a way like Daython mentioned, boosting balance each time it pulsed.. AND focuses the attacker's attention so it wouldn't swap over to someone else in the group.. then it would make that a spell that I would use in invasions, unlike simply relying on Courage, DA, and AS as I do now.
Redarch
OLDTIMER
Re: Lead comparison
04/27/2003 01:35 PM CDT
Well, the main thing to get rid of with courage casts is that a non magic user joined effects the power of the cast for ALL members of the group. That is so conceptually wrong and playably wrong. It gives a magic resistant type way, way too much power for absolutely doing nothing. It is their magic resistant problem and not mine.
As to how many in the group, I think that should grow with skill. Maybe a function of concentration as you link to each individual to boost their courage when casting. If you think about it courage is not well defined in it's application logic. Is it area effect? Well if you take into consideration that hidden people can sneak courage and magic resistant you would think it was. Yet if they are NOT joined to you it doesn't effect the courage either way. Which implies it is not area effect but requires some level of closeness? IMO it would be better as a modification of concentration on how well we can display our righteous leadership self to the group. Which in the end implies no courage for the hidden folks.
Along with the earlier suggestions maybe what we need to make tactics viable is a way to sense group morale. Then use our leadership skills to boost, change, modify, rally this morale through special group spells that we already have and maybe some to be developed as well. Perhaps even spells and or glyphs that can only be used at a certain level of group morale.
Daython
As to how many in the group, I think that should grow with skill. Maybe a function of concentration as you link to each individual to boost their courage when casting. If you think about it courage is not well defined in it's application logic. Is it area effect? Well if you take into consideration that hidden people can sneak courage and magic resistant you would think it was. Yet if they are NOT joined to you it doesn't effect the courage either way. Which implies it is not area effect but requires some level of closeness? IMO it would be better as a modification of concentration on how well we can display our righteous leadership self to the group. Which in the end implies no courage for the hidden folks.
Along with the earlier suggestions maybe what we need to make tactics viable is a way to sense group morale. Then use our leadership skills to boost, change, modify, rally this morale through special group spells that we already have and maybe some to be developed as well. Perhaps even spells and or glyphs that can only be used at a certain level of group morale.
Daython
OLDTIMER
Re: Lead comparison
04/27/2003 01:49 PM CDT
Okay the add on component to TR.
Change the spell this way.....
TR first cast has a duration but not a continual boosting. As in you must cast each time to gain the boost but the mana cost to cast after the first cast is less. TR's duration effect is to make balance recovery and gain faster for a person. Similiar to how adanf uses their tail to regain their balance faster. The leadable morale component would be to allow a person in the group by success to swing at their foe from the flank. For example, a measure of success is gained, your next swing you jump to flank and swing, then back to facing, etc etc. As a group component with morale to a certain point you could give an agility boost to all in the group. The soul costing component of rallying would be to give a reflex boost to the whole group.
Daython
Change the spell this way.....
TR first cast has a duration but not a continual boosting. As in you must cast each time to gain the boost but the mana cost to cast after the first cast is less. TR's duration effect is to make balance recovery and gain faster for a person. Similiar to how adanf uses their tail to regain their balance faster. The leadable morale component would be to allow a person in the group by success to swing at their foe from the flank. For example, a measure of success is gained, your next swing you jump to flank and swing, then back to facing, etc etc. As a group component with morale to a certain point you could give an agility boost to all in the group. The soul costing component of rallying would be to give a reflex boost to the whole group.
Daython
NEELD
Re: Lead comparison
04/28/2003 09:44 AM CDT
<<Tyden
PS post durations your seeing plus any bonuses your noticing. Currently im seeing about 10 minutes but no idea whats going on in the time its up.>>
I'm at 7 minutes and see no appreciable difference in my primary weapon. However, I notice a drastic increase in my secondary weapon. I know, its odd, but that is my perception.
Madigan
PS post durations your seeing plus any bonuses your noticing. Currently im seeing about 10 minutes but no idea whats going on in the time its up.>>
I'm at 7 minutes and see no appreciable difference in my primary weapon. However, I notice a drastic increase in my secondary weapon. I know, its odd, but that is my perception.
Madigan
C0UGAR
Re: Lead comparison
04/29/2003 08:45 AM CDT
>PS post durations your seeing plus any bonuses your noticing. Currently im seeing about 10 minutes but no idea whats going on in the time its up.>
I will do some experiments with it on the weekend, though I allready have come to conclusions that folk that are not happy with lead may not have charisma as high as they could have :-)
So, it might be more helpful if you post your circle and charisma with your durations etc.
Michael.
I will do some experiments with it on the weekend, though I allready have come to conclusions that folk that are not happy with lead may not have charisma as high as they could have :-)
So, it might be more helpful if you post your circle and charisma with your durations etc.
Michael.
