First off. Our only guild-only titles are things like Master Thief, Expert Thief, Journeyman Thief. Everything else is under criminal. Even at a tert rate, I'm sure you guys can get enough stealing to qualify for a lot of those titles.

Secondly. Saying you want access to our titles is completely irrelevant to our having access to other guilds titles. It's a guild-ability for us to be able to fake another guild. If you are saying you want access to our guild ability to lie and pretend to be another guild, then fine, I'm all for it, but you better have a detailed proposal for why you think it's IC for a paladin to have it.

Thirdly, the title in question is merely a title for paladins that have fallen from grace. If anything, it should be the EASIEST title for a thief to pretend. No matter what title we have, we're going to have stealing ranks, backstab ranks, hiding/stalking ranks. Our souls are as black as night, we explode soulstones. This is the one title that would would be easiest for us to claim.

-Wighten

<<But only paladins should be able to call yer bluff...>>

you are. you're the only ones that get some sort of in-game benefit for accusing someone you catch in your pockets to the town guards.


---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

Adding to my last, with a suggestion, or perhaps an idea.

There are differing ways for most guilds to "lose" something .. Is the Heretic title perhaps allowed in all guilds if they have lost thier "soul".

Thieves confidence, or reputation can get shot. Rangers lose thier wilderness bonus under certain conditions. Empaths get shock. Those make sense to me as examples of when the Heretic title might be available.

Just a late nite, drunken thought.

>1) Thieves have been able to use Paladin titles since we could fake the guild.

Yes, Thieves HAD the ability to choose any of the pretend guild's titles. Now that the new skill based system has been released, Thieves have to earn titles just like everyone else and fullfill all the requirements. If Thieves are able to get the Heretic title then it might as well be available to ALL non-holy guilds that dont have an active soul state. This would be the same as another guild getting the Assasin title without having any knowledege of backstab or a 'War' mage having access to a Barbarian title that had an inner fire requirement.
Personally, if you really want to be a Heretic so badly then you should have zero in town bonus, a completely tanked reputation, the inability to gain confidence, no use of any type stealh maneuvers (snipe, ambush, backstab), and loss of all khri to actually gain the title to even be remotely as penalized as the Paladins who have earned the title. I think if a Thief wants the title so badly then they should be so penalized as to not even be able to twirl a lockpick.

PS. I dont think anyone wearing the Heretic title should be able to get favors, or is this already true?

>That's not true. It's a guild-only title, and therefore falls under a different set of requirements for thieves.

Just because you have the ability to pretend to be another guild should not give you access to every single title of that guild, especially one related to something as guild centric as soulstate. What do you actually think the Thieve's requirements should be to equate to a blackened soul state? Backstab? Lockpicking? There is no Thief equivalent to justify EARNing the title. If Heretic was just any other title, then sure, Thieves should have access to it, but you want the title without any of the negative consequences.

>It's a Paladin-only title.

And should stay that way.

>I don't really like the title at all.

So you are here to argue for something you dont even want? Do you go to any restaurants and order all the food you DONT want or do you ask for what you do want? Just curious.

<<There is no Thief equivalent to justify EARNing the title.>>

and theres no paladin equivalent to what happens to a thief from their own guild when their reputation is blown. At least a Heretic only gets a scowl from Darius and can't circle until they take steps to restore their soulstate. <which isn't THAT hard, I did a bunch of stealing with a paladin over in the Test Instance to see how long it took. > A Thief gets KILLED by their guild, not only can't circle, with a bad rep.

But, as said so eloquently, our souls are as black as night. A thief more than anyone who is faking Paladin guild should be able to fake a Heretic MUCH easier than faking a Holy Warrior. <and that one is an option too. >

---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

no, you were stating that you should be the only ones that get the title because you get penalized in order to get it, and stating you are the only ones so penalized. I am bringing out the facts that you are NOT the only ones penalized.

At any rate, I think that Simu has done a great job with the titles, and I like what they've done with "Heretic".




---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

actually, theres been suggestions made on the ranger boards for titles for rangers that have lost bonus. :-)

have a good day.


---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

This debate brings to mind the main problem I have with guild disguises.. the fact that there is absolutely no way to enforce that they are roleplayed with even minimal effort.

New system:

Give thieves guild titles at first, and after a long enough time access to guild shops and other perks. No, I'm not suggesting a D&D style dual class (thief/mage!), but make the benefits good enough to be worth staying in character for.

Temper this system with the ability of guild members to accuse their "fellow" guild members of being imposters. Go to one of your guild leaders and say "accuse <name> imposter".

If you are right, the guild leader gives you a pat on the head and a soul boost/devotion/some minor guild reward. The next time the imposter walks in front of a guild guard, they are roughed up and thrown out. They are then free to re-choose their pretend guild, but probably put a timer on the one they were just thrown out of (to prevent our souls from becoming too pristine).

If you falsly accuse someone, you lose your ability to accuse people as being imposters for a LONG time. In addition (but for a lesser time), you lose guild abilities, ability to circle, are forced to wear the title "Snitch" or "Squealer", and the guildleader calls you "a very bad person". The punishment must be much greater than the reward, to keep people from accusing everyone they don't recognize on sight.

This would both give thieves something tangible as a reward, and keep us from having to suffer the "look at me, I'm a backstabbin' pallie" people.


In response to the Heretic title debate... why not just put a positive soul requirement on all the OTHER paladin titles? I know that would mean a lot of hard work for thieves in the soul department (and granted, getting a thief to work hard is inherently laughable... or they wouldn't be thieves to begin with ;) but it would really be earning the title.

And I guess we'd have give them a pass on the whole "repent until your stealing ranks pulse slowly down to 0" thing.

<<A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
>>

I was thinking of going this route with the argument and posting the definition, however there are 2 potential flaws in this tactic I thought about which prompted me to not post the definition.

First, an alternate definition is: 2: a person who holds unorthodox opinions in any field (not merely religion). Gonif, I am sure, would argue that a thief without their theifly bonus would be someone who holds unorthodox opinions about what it is to be a thief and therefore qualifies for the heretic title. Second, a definition is fine, however it does not really make sense in relation to thief title theft, as they don't fall under the definition of most Paladin titles.

--Just a "clueless" Squire

Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.

With bad reputation a Thief cannot

Use guild passages

Circle

Get new abilities

Get killed whenever trying to enter passages or guild

Can't use some abilities


Yep, you're right, they're not the same at all.

The big difference is you have a way to recharge your soul. There are people who haven't been able to enter the guild for 2 years now.

This thread just became quibbling, but I thought I would call you out on that one. Otherwise I'm done with it.

-Wighten

>With bad reputation a Thief cannot: Blah blah blah

Only in the one province in which thier reputation is tanked.


Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a Sword.

Oscar Wilde

<<Sounds like this is more about looking cool or arguing for the sake of arguing than it is on the principle of the matter.>>

Not at all dear. Thieves are allowed to wear fake titles, that is a fact. For titles that require some sort of skill they cannot gain they have to have some other skill take its place (which first and foremost is rediculous, because I don't see how having stealing or whatever would make-up for the lack of magic, but I digress). Heretic, a Paladin title, can only be used if said Paladin tanks his soul (a measurable trait). Theieves on the other hand have no such requirement for the title. They don't have to "lose" anthing for it. For them to be able to use the title they should have to substitute the loss of soul for something else in order to keep fake-titles on the same playing field (even though on principle I still think substituting one skill for another is stupid).

--Just a "clueless" Squire

Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.

what Ssra said is exactly correct.

Additional IN-game support:

<<she tells you, "when he was a youngster in the Paladin Guild in some flea-ridden backwater village, his tongue was cut and he was expelled for heresy. He is somewhat of a mystic and a follower of Botolf.....">>

this is part of what one of the Thief Guildleaders tells you about her husband.




---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

>.... if a Thief is wearing it, it's fake. They never were a Paladin to begin with. So by this methodology, taking the thieves ability to backstab away from them while they wear the Heretic title makes the Thief more like a real Paladin. However, isn't the point to pretend? What makes the thief more or less a Paladin, technically? Nothing

Isnt the point of having a Skill based title system is to be earned by having the neccessary skills/requirements of said skills or is that to be overlooked for pretend titles?


Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a Sword.

Oscar Wilde

<<Yes, to the second part. Part of this is understandable, because there is no practical way for thieves to train up that much magic in the case of the magic primary guilds. However, in the case of paladin titles, thieves aren't required the full amount of armor ranks. Why? Simply because they are armor tertiary. I think hiding is substituted into the equation to compensate.>>

This is what bothers me. How is it that hiding skill makes up for a lack of armor skill? From an IC perspective are the skills really so interchangeable? Would a real Paladin be able to have said title if they had the hiding skill but not the armor skill for that title? Why not?

--Just a "clueless" Squire

Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.

As to the Heretic title.. just another example of the guild disguise system being used as an OOC way to harass the guild in question or as simply a way to get another guild's "cool sounding title". Neither of these enhance RP. Consider... about 99 percent of the people who qualify for "Heretic" are non-paladins. So how does taking this title help keep up appearances?

Doesn't bother me all that much, but does sort highlight a "purely RP system" that needs some revision.

Problem I see with this title..

Heretic Joe-Bob walks in.

Religious Zealot (should be a title) Jim smites Joe-Bob on sight! Down with the heretics!

Joe-Bob departs.

Heretic Joe-Bob walks in.

You hear Joe-Bob from the shadows say, "You can't do that to me"

Jim says, "huh?"

*Jim was just struck down!

The ghostly voice of Jim says, "Well, now we all know Joe-Bob is no paladin"

You hear Joe-Bob from the shadows say, "What can you do about it?"

While your knee-jerk is to say, "gee, Jim had it coming", this reaction stems from the nonexistance of RP with regards to the disguise system. Joe-Bob very well could have worn a title other than heretic, but was likely looking to pick a fight he could easily win. Jim was angry that Joe-Bob could wear the title, because he cares about such things (and also realized Joe-Bob wasn't one of the few paladins who actually qualified for the title, so was obviously a thief). The fact that Joe-Bob had absolutely nothing to lose (not even his play titles) left him with the obvious choice of throwing away his disguise completely and seeing to his bruised ego.

~Caneghem Urathi

A few facts as I see them:

We've gone from 25/26 titles (the gals have one more) to I believe Solomon said 76. And those are just the Guild-only ones. From what I can see of other guilds, Paladins have had the most extensive title work up of all the guilds.

A Thief ability is to be able to fake other guild titles, specifically.. ONE guild (I'm assuming this will be locked down again now SimuCon is over).

Since the release of the new titles it has been interesting to watch thieves and guild titles. Quite a few are just going with titles available to everyone, while others are latching onto the fact they can wear (what were thief guild titles) criminal titles out in the open now. Those folks I have seen (and I have been playing my thief mainly since the release) that are faking other guilds have been doing so admirably, and IC.

Where as the Paladin guild gained 50 titles, the Thieves Guild lost just about every title they had (some very cool titles as well - far FAR cooler than 'Heretic'). Everyone can get theirs now. I think it's MORE than fair that the titles they have access to via the fake title system have replacement stats for those they otherwise cannot learn (mainly magic skills).

I realise the main gripe is that Paladin's have to lose their soul for the title Heretic, while Thieves don't lose such a thing. Well. You're all acting as if this is going to be the most popular title ever and that tomorrow every Paladin will be wearing it because it's that cool a title, so you must protect it by being bolchy about ONE requirement. Let the thieves use it. If you catch a thief wearing it due to their bad roleplay then you can always gripe about it on the boards. That's not YOUR problem, it's theirs.

We have the most to be thankful for. I don't see any other guild moaning and whinning about a title, never mind a title that a massively small percentage of our guild will even consider trying to wear. Instead, they're going to that little folder down the bottom of each guild section and suggesting more. So why don't you go do that, and also add "Paladin-only, not even thief pretend" as a requirement, or suggest requirements that'd be so obvious no self respecting roleplayer would even dream of choosing it.

The Paladin Guild is one of the hardest guild to pretend to be as a thief. There's no secret why most pretend to be barbarians, rangers, bards or traders. Any thief that takes on the challenge of pretending to be a Paladin, in my view, deserves to be able to pretend to be a dark Paladin just like you all want the ability to play dark Paladins and still be allowed to circle through other darkie means (like an alternative guild leader).

~Kesrel, a Paladin Primary player and always will be.

for more than just the titles.

most thieves that do fake paladins don't take the time to train shield/hp, magic etc back when that was teachable by nmus. I did when I used to "fake" that guild.

but it Is alot easier to fake a guild that also hides in combat, snipes, wears leather, etc.

even if it does mean getting lost.

ranga schvartz


---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

<<Well. You're all acting as if this is going to be the most popular title ever and that tomorrow every Paladin will be wearing it because it's that cool a title, so you must protect it by being bolchy about ONE requirement.>>

To me, the heretic title is an example of the issue, not the issue itself. If there are special requirements that allow theives to fake title, fine theres nothing that I can do about the ridiculous idea that knowing hiding somehow gives the theif enough knowledge to fake armor abilities. However, make it even across the board, put a requirement that mimics the true title abilities on ALL titles. This case is just an instance of getting something for nothing, when they should have to give up something for access to the title.

--Just a "clueless" Squire

Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.