>but the act of resurrection they do (which costs favors)

Nope, player-rezz costs no favors.

The rest is lore wandering, so I can't comment on it. Didn't want you to think a 'simutronics dog' was only skimming your post.

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Note: this is not a plug for Genie or Elanthipedia or Mars Bars.

Ever read Hyperion/Endymion? No spoilers, but Resurrection and worship of the Immortals is akin to the Cruciform.

And, by the way;
>Not all of us are "evil", despite what your false gods might say.

False.

In the words of the Batman, we are defined by our actions. In the Game, all necromancers are bad.

OOC we know that the things that our necromancers do (if not our aspirations or ultimate goals) are horrible deeds. As players, that is the role we aspire to, that our characters become the thing that other's characters hate (or as we as our characters wish, fear). As players, we hope to be capable to have fun while being beaten down and keep getting up, and that the other players also have a good time beating, trying to beat or being beaten themselves by our in game characters. We as players can also learn to have fun from hiding, fleeing or/and eventually persecuting and having others flee from us.

IC/RP I guess most necromancers, at least in the beginning, do not see themselves as evil. They believe they have stumbled upon a gargantuan secret truth and that now they must do whatever they can in order to break with a cycle of death that is only in place by the wishes or designs of the immortals but which are not ultimately in the best interest of the Elanthian races. How much is self-delusion and how much is a result of faulty reason resulting from our induced madness, may vary from individual to individual. It seems, however, that the Necromancer character, as they get more powerful and feared, start reveling in the level of violence they can inflict. I have heard of necromancers fasting on their fallen enemies. I doubt that (in the majority of the occasions) this is done out of necessity to preserve the wounded Necro's life, but it is done to inflict further ignominy on our fallen enemy. This shows how, by some brilliant designed flaw of the spells, lore and atmosphere of the guild, our characters do start doing horrible things. To act, as it is intended, as evil monsters.

The fact that some may restrain themselves from such acts of extreme violence and or will seek to redeem themselves is just an an Outlet for players that decide to try stop playing monstrous characters or because the induction into the guild is not an infallible process and sometimes the madness is not permanent or the character does reaches a limit to what he or she is willing to sacrifice in pursuit of the Great Work.

But maybe I'm just mad.

>galileo was almost burned at the stake

I believe this was a myth. A dirty google showed a catholic news article refuting it and I dont date link non-Jewish faith articles, since the last time I did it started a flame war.

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Note: this is not a plug for Genie or Elanthipedia or Mars Bars.

>Not all necros are out there to kill puppies and eat butterflies, some are in it to save themselves or others.

The argument though is that the process of 'saving themselves or others' may NOT be justifiable. "lets rid the world of communism, we'll invade Vietnam and save them all!" sort of comes to mind.

To keep using bad analogies; Necromancers may be like Neo and Morpheus and Trinity trying to rescue Elanthians from the Matrix, but in doing so, they have to kill a lot of people, including the immortals, and frankly, a lot of people (and the immortals!) have a pretty good setup. It's like that, a bit, except the Immortals are arguably/possibly/NOTEVENALITTLEBIT less insidious than the AIs.

>>But saying every necro is evil

>Is established game lore per the people who made the guild.

And the Immortals who write the definition of good and evil.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

>>Personally I think it seems a bit odd to say that all necros must be evil, given that they will be able to become Redeemed.

What do you think that they'll be redeemed from, if not from evil?

>>If you're redeemed from the evil, then you're not evil anymore. But you're still a necro. Therefore, not all necros are evil, which I believe was my point.

Ah, I see. Then do we agree that all necro's are evil until they decide to stop doing necro things?

>The great thing about opinions is that we can each have our own and not be wrong. It's fine if the person that created the guild views them all as evil, but I don't have to share that opinion. Personally I think it seems a bit odd to say that all necros must be evil, given that they will be able to become Redeemed.

You're making a very bad arguement honestly. The guild is evil because they are declaratively so according to IG lore and actions. Yes, there is quibble room, deliberately, but if the spells and everything else in the guild do not convince you necromancers are...wrong, you're not paying attention to anything.

And you do know that 'redeemed' necromancers, in the original contextual discussions, were said to have to forgo a massive chunk of necro abilities (anything that causes DO) or return to the forsaken status, and that it was a one chance thing? And that redemption has no connotation here other than the immortals, who you are so vehemently arguing are superfluous to the discussion?

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Note: this is not a plug for Genie or Elanthipedia or Mars Bars.

Am I misremembering that Redeemed would also be unable to circle? Since circling causes DO, you'd end up Forsaken again.

Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer

I'm really curious why this pops up so periodically.

No; you cannot be a 'good necromancer' unless you take the route of being redeemed. At which point, the gyst is they're kind of not necromancers anymore. But it's been stated that once you're Redeemed, you're kind of still broken. At the very least, the temptation is always there.

>>Am I misremembering that Redeemed would also be unable to circle? Since circling causes DO, you'd end up Forsaken again.

That was originally discussed and thrown out. The goal would be to allow Redeemed to function nominally, but it really is still kind of a bum deal. That's the point: you don't get to be a cool Necromancer and a "good guy" at the same time. It'll be there for people that want to make the RP work, but for the majority of Necro PCs it's designed as a vehicle of condemnation by refusal. "Here's your path to being a good guy. Too expensive? Your PC must not want to be a good guy that badly."

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>Imagine that you put your trumpet in a dress and took it to the prom.

>>Think you'd be hard pressed to not have that follow you around forever?

LMAO. Fair enough, if you dressed up your necromancy and took it to a prom before you renounced your evil ways then I'll still call you a necromancer, but I'm going to want to see the yearbook photos first. <G>

Necros are evil. Period. That's the lore, that's the game, that's the perception of the unwashed masses, and the authorities everywhere. People can stick their head in the sand and claim to be "nice" or "good" or whatever and it's just delusion. The moment you create a zombie, bypass the favors of the gods and use SRE, or plunge that knife into a corpse to perform some necromantic ritual, say goodbye to any "good" you might have stored up. You're performing an evil act. RP "good" all you want, it's just a lie and you probably should have chosen another guild to play because any RP will always be false and end up making a "good" necromancer nothing but a joke. There is no "challenge" in RP'ing a good necromancer, because you're discounting everything about the guild. Necros are evil. Period. Saying otherwise a thousand times will not make it so. Dorothy, just click those ruby red slippers 3 times and say, "necros are good, necros are good, necros are good."

________________________________________________________________


"Nope, I decided parry will remain completely and utterly useless. Try something else."

> Like circling involving slaughtering people in horrible ways (since we already have huntable creatures from the playable races, it has to be worse that just killing them), and all rituals containing references to the inherent madness of being a Necromancer.

IIRC it was something like requiring performing Thanatology rituals on a humanoid for each circle.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

oh... and the more we protest we are not mad, the madder we seem to be.

But, you know the rest.

>Arguably not, really.<

What I am saying, Ucu, is that even if the player were to conduct his Necro as if the character were sane, the character is still mad. Thus the parts about self delusion, narcissism and megalomania.

The Player has total freedom to play as a hero and conduct his character as if it were sane. But the character is still mad and evil. Non-necro characters that believe in the goodness of a Necro's heart or intentions have been deceived or are victims of a mass hysteria brought on by the Necro himself.

SIMU is not forcing anyone to go and play evil, even if you decide to play your Necro as nice, that is just either a cover, or evidence of the madness (imagine, he is involved in a course of action that would result in the destruction of the world and of all living things in Elanthia, and still he thinks that in doing so he has been made privy to the only way to free himself, and maybe us, from being ultimately eaten by the gods.)

But, you know the rest.

> Thus the parts about self delusion, narcissism and megalomania.

I think one of the cool things about the way Armifer wrote these mental illnesses into the guild lore isn't so much that we're stark raving eat your shirt mad, but that we're barely contained psychopaths mad. Don't think evil Mad Hatter, think Hannibal Lecter. You can obviously RP your Necromancer how you see fit, and your character can believe whatever they want, but the fact of the matter is Necromancers are evil/bad/wrong.

That's the point. You the player know this; Necromancers are evil, and what they are doing is evil. Your character may be convinced that it serves a greater purpose, but at the very least, you should be aware that if you are RPing someone who feels they are 'good', that you are RPing someone who is also delusional.

Her name was Penelope Purebred? Geez racism was entrenched.

Ok lets start it like this, Necromancers are evil no matter how good they are.
Why: The Moon Mage Council is in charge of all new spells and magical aspects of Elanthia. They deem that kind of Magic evil and unlawful.
Case of Point:
Lord Sura, Lord and protector of a city was invited to join Moon Mage council when he fell victum to a terable disease that would kill him. So he decided to study with the Crystal Hnad mox. When he returned from the studies he went to see the Council. He informed them he no longer was ill and couldn't die. The Council on the Spot deemed him a ROGUE SORCERER. Lord Sura fled to his city where he was persued by assassins of the council. To escape he casted a giant earthquake that decimated the city allowing him to escape safely.
was he right or wrong in creating the earthquake? here is the point of that paragraph if you said he was right congrats you are a necromancer if you said he was wrong congrats your in thw rong folder and outed your self!!

The decent of the Fallen:
Lord Sura is Lord Sorrow named Lord Sorrow for the citizens he protected and saved from invasions and the grief and SORROW'S HE CREATED when he casted the earthquake spell and obliterated the city he protected!

Lord Sorrow then went in to hiding when Dzree hired em to guess what? smash another city. He did for one reason. He got his keep back and protecters for it s'lai.

Lord Sorrow is the son of a Nobleman of the ruling family before the fall of the "star empire" and last desendant of the ruling family of the empire.

Sithsia was a noble women who worked with the Farn company she is also the reason the woods are twisted by leth. She might also be the reason the demon is imprisoned or harnessed as the standing stones were her design. She is a necromancer as she casted a strong enough spell after her husbands son died to end the elven war.

Sidholt over 3000 years old Queen Morganae over 3000 years old, One is a bone dancer other is a necromancer both evil just pendulium fell differently for there fates.

Case in point is this A necromancer is good in their minds but everyone else will see them as evil. Queen Morganae holds that Crown because every kingdom is to scared to dare even come close to trying to take it off her head and she medles in every court with some one being her eyes. Another thing keeps her crown is she is very nosey.

Sidholt deemed evil because he lost the fight to queen morganae and tried to gain power threw demonic means and evil allies and also sided with the dragon priests.

The point is the view you are taking as there is no good or evil just a different spectrum of the eye.
But the final word of good and evil spells is deemed by the Moon Mage Council who deciphers and re makes a spell so it is not to powerful or has to bad of effects which was the results of the guardians checking the balances of spells and mana.