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I'd like to revisit some of the visions seen at the inception of the guild, in light of what we now know, with the purpose of gaining further information on the various viewpoints held by diverse necromantic ideologies.
Namely, I continue to be puzzled by the vision I call the "table" vision -
To refresh our memories:
<<A crimson design etches across the air in front of you. Its origins are foreign, but a powerful desire acoompanies it; it means everything you want, every possibility realized."
"You're forgetting stomething,"
You stand in front of an iron table, scalpel in hand. Lying on the table is a half-naked <yourrace>, unbound yet seemingly paralyzed. She stares up at you with wide, tear-brimmed eyes, while her beaths are accompanied with gasping plaintive whines. Standing opposite you is an elderly Human man in homespun clothes.
The Old man says, "Glory, Immortality. Transcendence. Every promise that has been made is true. It's all hidden insdie there." He looks down at the captive <yourrace>. "Waiting for you to dig it out."
He returns a flat, expressionless gaze to you. "The moral dilemna isn't that necromancy demands a terrible price, but that you aren't the one that pays it. Are you worth her life?"
Now, if we are supposed to interpret the "old man" in the vision as "the old man" of the redeemed, why is he encouraging you to "dig out" the presumed soon-to-be-dead captive of your race?
Another question, does the captive in some way represent your own self, as it always is someone of the visionists own race? And what is it that the person is "forgettin"?
And why does he tell you that you aren't the one that pays the price? According to the gods, you pay a terrible price indeed - damnation.
"we're doing it for the good of mankind," said the philosophers of murder, waiting for the rest of the world to congratulate them"-Elie Wiesel <the gates of the forest>
GERSTEINJ2
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/01/2012 06:49 AM CST
>Now, if we are supposed to interpret the "old man" in the vision as "the old man" of the redeemed, why is he encouraging you to "dig out" the presumed soon-to-be-dead captive of your race?
It's much like any number of cliches in moves, like when the cop tells the suicidal man "go ahead and do it. I'm sure you're family won't miss you at all, right." etc.
>Another question, does the captive in some way represent your own self, as it always is someone of the visionists own race?
In theory, you'd have more empathy toward someone of you own race.
>And what is it that the person is "forgettin"?
I suspect it's used more in the colloquial sense of "you haven't thought about x, have you?"
>And why does he tell you that you aren't the one that pays the price? According to the gods, you pay a terrible price indeed - damnation.
Because even if you're right and you succeed at the Great Work, you aren't the one paying the price. You aren't the one who has to be sacrificed, you aren't the test subject, you aren't the one who will be murdered, you aren't the one who will be raised from the dead to serve others. In the end, you may or may not pay a price, but a great many other people are guaranteed to do it for you.
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Combat Balance List:
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It's much like any number of cliches in moves, like when the cop tells the suicidal man "go ahead and do it. I'm sure you're family won't miss you at all, right." etc.
>Another question, does the captive in some way represent your own self, as it always is someone of the visionists own race?
In theory, you'd have more empathy toward someone of you own race.
>And what is it that the person is "forgettin"?
I suspect it's used more in the colloquial sense of "you haven't thought about x, have you?"
>And why does he tell you that you aren't the one that pays the price? According to the gods, you pay a terrible price indeed - damnation.
Because even if you're right and you succeed at the Great Work, you aren't the one paying the price. You aren't the one who has to be sacrificed, you aren't the test subject, you aren't the one who will be murdered, you aren't the one who will be raised from the dead to serve others. In the end, you may or may not pay a price, but a great many other people are guaranteed to do it for you.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/01/2012 10:43 AM CST
>>>And why does he tell you that you aren't the one that pays the price? According to the gods, you pay a terrible price indeed - damnation.
>>Because even if you're right and you succeed at the Great Work, you aren't the one paying the price. You aren't the one who has to be sacrificed, you aren't the test subject, you aren't the one who will be murdered, you aren't the one who will be raised from the dead to serve others. In the end, you may or may not pay a price, but a great many other people are guaranteed to do it for you.
Basically this, but elaborating on it; Damnation doesn't come because the Gods don't like us for our guild choice, Damnation comes because we have given up our humanity, by sacrificing others at the altar of our labors, to pursue our Great Work. The whole vision is about how great knowledge and power lies in the Great Work, that we so doggedly pursue, but the road is paved with lives we ruin.
It's meant to show there's no way to sugar coat what we do; while some can rationalize away the pursuit of the Great Work as serving the greater good, we are A ) simply wrong in our beliefs that it is for a greater good, and B ) still damning ourselves by our actions to others.
>>Because even if you're right and you succeed at the Great Work, you aren't the one paying the price. You aren't the one who has to be sacrificed, you aren't the test subject, you aren't the one who will be murdered, you aren't the one who will be raised from the dead to serve others. In the end, you may or may not pay a price, but a great many other people are guaranteed to do it for you.
Basically this, but elaborating on it; Damnation doesn't come because the Gods don't like us for our guild choice, Damnation comes because we have given up our humanity, by sacrificing others at the altar of our labors, to pursue our Great Work. The whole vision is about how great knowledge and power lies in the Great Work, that we so doggedly pursue, but the road is paved with lives we ruin.
It's meant to show there's no way to sugar coat what we do; while some can rationalize away the pursuit of the Great Work as serving the greater good, we are A ) simply wrong in our beliefs that it is for a greater good, and B ) still damning ourselves by our actions to others.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/01/2012 10:48 AM CST
EBWOP: Basically, we shouldn't forget that Necromancers are the bad guys. The vision is even tailored to remind us that the person on the table is a member of our own race. We are burning every bridge behind us, breaking every window we pass, and spitting in the face of every chance at redemption the Immortals extended. We're a scourge upon reality, and should remember that RPing positive motives is more or less the equivalent of RPing a socio/psychopath.
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/01/2012 01:17 PM CST
>we are A ) simply wrong in our beliefs that it is for a greater good, and B ) still damning ourselves by our actions to others.
From a PC perspective, I wouldn't go that far.
I see it as a way of reminding us that no matter how good the intentions are, the path is still paved with the bodies of others who did not volunteer to be paving stones.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
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Combat Balance List:
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From a PC perspective, I wouldn't go that far.
I see it as a way of reminding us that no matter how good the intentions are, the path is still paved with the bodies of others who did not volunteer to be paving stones.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/01/2012 08:44 PM CST
I believe Armifer has said that no matter how deluded our Necromancers intentions may be, the Great Work will not be a net benefit to... anyone. We are Elanthipedia's best example of hubris, and the road of our audacity is underlined, as you aptly wrote, by the bodies of those who did not volunteer.
MELLIONM6
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/01/2012 10:34 PM CST
With regards to the Old Man himself, I get the distinct impression that he is willing to help necromancers turn away from their crimes, but not necessarily willing to make any real attempts at persuading them, nor lying to them. I think he, like the Philosophers, believes the answers are staring necromancers in the face, begging to be found should we deign to acquire them. At the same time, he has come to the distinct conclusion that the price the Philosophers pay is too great. As a whole, the costs incurred outweigh any potential benefits. Those who believe as he does, he is willing to accept into his ranks. Those who do not will either learn or find their way to Red Spiral. Which way an individual necromancer goes doesn't really matter.
--Croegar/Shatteringwave/Someone Else
K>think
You try, but in the cramped confines of the tunnel, there's just no room to do that.
--Croegar/Shatteringwave/Someone Else
K>think
You try, but in the cramped confines of the tunnel, there's just no room to do that.
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/01/2012 10:42 PM CST
>I believe Armifer has said that no matter how deluded our Necromancers intentions may be, the Great Work will not be a net benefit to... anyone.
I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you, but in this case, I think you may be confusing an OOC design rule (PC Necromancers will not have abilities that help other people) with an overarching lore situation.
>We are Elanthipedia's best example of hubris
All hail Elanthipedia! :P
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you, but in this case, I think you may be confusing an OOC design rule (PC Necromancers will not have abilities that help other people) with an overarching lore situation.
>We are Elanthipedia's best example of hubris
All hail Elanthipedia! :P
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 12:21 AM CST
>>I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you, but in this case, I think you may be confusing an OOC design rule (PC Necromancers will not have abilities that help other people) with an overarching lore situation.
I don't think so; my impression is that Moonies associating Necromancers with reality destroyers, Thanatology being roughly the antithesis of Empathy and Transcendent Empaths being... transcendent... along with the obvious objections the Immortals have to our efforts, I see us as tragically flawed and mistaken creatures. I'm not even sure the Great Work is achievable (and I think that's rather the point).
>>All hail Elanthipedia! :P
Well that was an unfortunate 'type faster than I think' issue...
I don't think so; my impression is that Moonies associating Necromancers with reality destroyers, Thanatology being roughly the antithesis of Empathy and Transcendent Empaths being... transcendent... along with the obvious objections the Immortals have to our efforts, I see us as tragically flawed and mistaken creatures. I'm not even sure the Great Work is achievable (and I think that's rather the point).
>>All hail Elanthipedia! :P
Well that was an unfortunate 'type faster than I think' issue...
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 01:20 AM CST
>I don't think so; my impression is that Moonies associating Necromancers with reality destroyers, Thanatology being roughly the antithesis of Empathy and Transcendent Empaths being... transcendent... along with the obvious objections the Immortals have to our efforts, I see us as tragically flawed and mistaken creatures.
Perhaps, but like a gun which can both slaughter a crowd, or prevent someone else from doing it, I would argue that the taint of the tool (thanatology and/or necromancy) does not necessarily mean the goal has the same taint. It very well may, but it doesn't have to.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Perhaps, but like a gun which can both slaughter a crowd, or prevent someone else from doing it, I would argue that the taint of the tool (thanatology and/or necromancy) does not necessarily mean the goal has the same taint. It very well may, but it doesn't have to.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
DURATHING
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 01:25 AM CST
I don't think that Thanatology is necessarily the antithesis of empathy, though a perversion of it certainly. But that said, there's some anecdotal evidence that the first empaths were borderline necromancers, and intentionally limited the power of the Empath Guild (via restricted teachings) for fear of what the power could do. (I think shifting is an example of some of the suppressed teachings that surfaced)
For what reading I (the player) have done, it sounds very possible that the Old Man was one of the first empaths.
Also, not to argue semantics, but don't moonies see necromancers as probability-destroyers, rather than reality? I would take that to mean that reality will still exist, but it will become static. With no souls dying [Necromancer dream] or more likely all souls consumed by the Hunger, the world would reach a certain stasis that would not have chance in it.
If it is 'reality-destroying', the please pardon me - I've never had the chance to see the messaging, I'm just going by my poor memory and lack of board search-fu.
As for the Great Work being achievable.. I think it can be done on a case-by-case basis (eg. the Necromancer themself), but not for the masses. The Old Man even says so:
>The Old man says, "Glory, Immortality. Transcendence. Every promise that has been made is true. It's all hidden insdie there."
But the ones who can't come along.. the ones slaughtered in the path.. the price...
For what reading I (the player) have done, it sounds very possible that the Old Man was one of the first empaths.
Also, not to argue semantics, but don't moonies see necromancers as probability-destroyers, rather than reality? I would take that to mean that reality will still exist, but it will become static. With no souls dying [Necromancer dream] or more likely all souls consumed by the Hunger, the world would reach a certain stasis that would not have chance in it.
If it is 'reality-destroying', the please pardon me - I've never had the chance to see the messaging, I'm just going by my poor memory and lack of board search-fu.
As for the Great Work being achievable.. I think it can be done on a case-by-case basis (eg. the Necromancer themself), but not for the masses. The Old Man even says so:
>The Old man says, "Glory, Immortality. Transcendence. Every promise that has been made is true. It's all hidden insdie there."
But the ones who can't come along.. the ones slaughtered in the path.. the price...
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 07:31 AM CST
<<I don't think so; my impression is that Moonies associating Necromancers with reality destroyers>>
the ones associated with Lyras, yes. but there is quite a different outlook expressed if you dig deep into MM lore and read the case of the Lich Penelope, <in the library in throne city imperial palace, under the topic of the mirror wraith prophecy. It seems like she gets almost a sympathetic view from the author.
<i was just there yesterday with my character, whoever wrote that researcher fellow did an amazing job, it felt like I was having a real conversation with him. Almost thought he might teach me about how to travel the astral plane, but alas, I'm not a moon mage. :-)> He did find me an enthusiastic student though!!!
Its of interest to note the case of the Y'shai= how they are "made" -- and interestingly enough, there is a "construct" within the walls of the imperial palace. <and we won't even mention what the Tezerites have in THEIR sect hall there... shhhh!>
Its amazing what the guilds have in common. Those MMs are MUCH better politically connected though. :-)
Another question I had with the whole gamut. Now, I get the whole "social outrage" thing being why the hounds go after PC necros and not the bone elves, etc, etc. <sidhot would eat them for breakfast>.
But what about the gods? Why do the gods never strike down bone elves if "necromancy is necromancy?" I get why the Maelshyveans don't get struck down - they practice spiritual necromancy and are "protected" by a demon. And the Liches don't get randomly smited for reasons known only to the immortals. But do the bone elves immediately "connect" to some sort of demon patron immediately upon "joining" or however they enter their cult? Just curious as to how other schools of necromancy "work".
Also unknown: the whereabouts of the following individuals: Velmix. Lasarhhtha.J0may.
Also curious as to the status of Jomay. Being as she worked alongside those of necromantic leanings <Sorrow>, yet was just a very evil and powerful Empath. Wasn't it said that those Empaths that practiced Necromancy disappear? what then in her case, or was it because she used bugs and not actual necromantic spells that she was able to avoid being made to disappear?
"we're doing it for the good of mankind," said the philosophers of murder, waiting for the rest of the world to congratulate them"-Elie Wiesel <the gates of the forest>
the ones associated with Lyras, yes. but there is quite a different outlook expressed if you dig deep into MM lore and read the case of the Lich Penelope, <in the library in throne city imperial palace, under the topic of the mirror wraith prophecy. It seems like she gets almost a sympathetic view from the author.
<i was just there yesterday with my character, whoever wrote that researcher fellow did an amazing job, it felt like I was having a real conversation with him. Almost thought he might teach me about how to travel the astral plane, but alas, I'm not a moon mage. :-)> He did find me an enthusiastic student though!!!
Its of interest to note the case of the Y'shai= how they are "made" -- and interestingly enough, there is a "construct" within the walls of the imperial palace. <and we won't even mention what the Tezerites have in THEIR sect hall there... shhhh!>
Its amazing what the guilds have in common. Those MMs are MUCH better politically connected though. :-)
Another question I had with the whole gamut. Now, I get the whole "social outrage" thing being why the hounds go after PC necros and not the bone elves, etc, etc. <sidhot would eat them for breakfast>.
But what about the gods? Why do the gods never strike down bone elves if "necromancy is necromancy?" I get why the Maelshyveans don't get struck down - they practice spiritual necromancy and are "protected" by a demon. And the Liches don't get randomly smited for reasons known only to the immortals. But do the bone elves immediately "connect" to some sort of demon patron immediately upon "joining" or however they enter their cult? Just curious as to how other schools of necromancy "work".
Also unknown: the whereabouts of the following individuals: Velmix. Lasarhhtha.J0may.
Also curious as to the status of Jomay. Being as she worked alongside those of necromantic leanings <Sorrow>, yet was just a very evil and powerful Empath. Wasn't it said that those Empaths that practiced Necromancy disappear? what then in her case, or was it because she used bugs and not actual necromantic spells that she was able to avoid being made to disappear?
"we're doing it for the good of mankind," said the philosophers of murder, waiting for the rest of the world to congratulate them"-Elie Wiesel <the gates of the forest>
BISCLAVRET
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 10:30 AM CST
>>It seems like she gets almost a sympathetic view from the author.
IIRC, Lady P wasn't even aware she was a lich. I also don't think it was something she was trying for. Most of us considered her more tragic than evil. Plus, she was an amazing astrologer and made tons of important contributions to the guild (i.e. teaching a solid chunk of GLs when they were babies, as well as major advancements in enchanting). Those things are worth more than morals to a moon mage any day.
>> the case of the Y'shai= how they are "made"
I've often wondered how that was ever legal. Moonies must have Elanthia's best spin doctors on staff.
>>Its amazing what the guilds have in common.
the biggest difference is that we rip your psyche apart, not your entrails. Entrails are messy.
IIRC, Lady P wasn't even aware she was a lich. I also don't think it was something she was trying for. Most of us considered her more tragic than evil. Plus, she was an amazing astrologer and made tons of important contributions to the guild (i.e. teaching a solid chunk of GLs when they were babies, as well as major advancements in enchanting). Those things are worth more than morals to a moon mage any day.
>> the case of the Y'shai= how they are "made"
I've often wondered how that was ever legal. Moonies must have Elanthia's best spin doctors on staff.
>>Its amazing what the guilds have in common.
the biggest difference is that we rip your psyche apart, not your entrails. Entrails are messy.
DURATHING
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 10:54 AM CST
>> the case of the Y'shai= how they are "made"
>I've often wondered how that was ever legal. Moonies must have Elanthia's best spin doctors on staff.
Aren't the Y'shai initially volunteers? Could that make a difference, since our constructs generally have no say in the matter [or try to say no].
>>Its amazing what the guilds have in common.
>the biggest difference is that we rip your psyche apart, not your entrails. Entrails are messy.
This might be the winner: Nobody likes to be confronted with the mess. Not messy = much less of a problem.
>I've often wondered how that was ever legal. Moonies must have Elanthia's best spin doctors on staff.
Aren't the Y'shai initially volunteers? Could that make a difference, since our constructs generally have no say in the matter [or try to say no].
>>Its amazing what the guilds have in common.
>the biggest difference is that we rip your psyche apart, not your entrails. Entrails are messy.
This might be the winner: Nobody likes to be confronted with the mess. Not messy = much less of a problem.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 12:18 PM CST
>>Aren't the Y'shai initially volunteers? Could that make a difference, since our constructs generally have no say in the matter [or try to say no].
I'm very sure that if the Cleric Guild/Temple/etc had their choice in the matter, Y'shai would be forbidden as well.
>>This might be the winner: Nobody likes to be confronted with the mess. Not messy = much less of a problem.
I don't know what Moon Mages you've been around but when their magic goes wrong it pretty much turns messy to 11.
What I think it amounts to is that the unwashed masses + the Temple just aren't threatened by Moon Mages, and magical theorists see Moon Mages ripping apart space and time as less of a concern than Necromancers ripping apart the fabric of reality/magic. My guess for the latter is because magical theorists feel that they're capable of fixing whatever wrongs a Moon Mage could create but when a Necromancer does something, there might not be enough magical structure left to fix the problem.
I'm very sure that if the Cleric Guild/Temple/etc had their choice in the matter, Y'shai would be forbidden as well.
>>This might be the winner: Nobody likes to be confronted with the mess. Not messy = much less of a problem.
I don't know what Moon Mages you've been around but when their magic goes wrong it pretty much turns messy to 11.
What I think it amounts to is that the unwashed masses + the Temple just aren't threatened by Moon Mages, and magical theorists see Moon Mages ripping apart space and time as less of a concern than Necromancers ripping apart the fabric of reality/magic. My guess for the latter is because magical theorists feel that they're capable of fixing whatever wrongs a Moon Mage could create but when a Necromancer does something, there might not be enough magical structure left to fix the problem.
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 01:39 PM CST
>>What I think it amounts to is that the unwashed masses + the Temple just aren't threatened by Moon Mages, and magical theorists see Moon Mages ripping apart space and time as less of a concern than Necromancers ripping apart the fabric of reality/magic.
I agree whole heartily with this although I don't see it's manifestation in the game concerning PC Necromancers. So much of what could go wrong for the Necromancer is concentrated upon , that generally nasty failures that effect , areas , players , of course the necromancer most of all , haven't even been hinted at in any possible systems for the guild.
I agree whole heartily with this although I don't see it's manifestation in the game concerning PC Necromancers. So much of what could go wrong for the Necromancer is concentrated upon , that generally nasty failures that effect , areas , players , of course the necromancer most of all , haven't even been hinted at in any possible systems for the guild.
DURATHING
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 02:10 PM CST
>>What I think it amounts to is that the unwashed masses + the Temple just aren't threatened by Moon Mages, and magical theorists see Moon Mages ripping apart space and time as less of a concern than Necromancers ripping apart the fabric of reality/magic.
>I agree whole heartily with this although I don't see it's manifestation in the game concerning PC Necromancers.
Moon mages break space/time by accident (pierce through, sure that's less accidental; but the breakage is an accident [or at least a side effect] - they don't intend to leave it that way).
Necromancers are breaking reality by design - as in, that's their stated intention. The necromancer's version of it "going right", is everyone else's version of "going wrong"
>I agree whole heartily with this although I don't see it's manifestation in the game concerning PC Necromancers.
Moon mages break space/time by accident (pierce through, sure that's less accidental; but the breakage is an accident [or at least a side effect] - they don't intend to leave it that way).
Necromancers are breaking reality by design - as in, that's their stated intention. The necromancer's version of it "going right", is everyone else's version of "going wrong"
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 02:15 PM CST
>>So much of what could go wrong for the Necromancer is concentrated upon , that generally nasty failures that effect , areas , players , of course the necromancer most of all , haven't even been hinted at in any possible systems for the guild.
I don't know if having Elanthia consumed by a black hole of unreality as the fabric of magic warps the world into a gaping hellscape of entropic terror is something you'd be getting at 150th :P
I don't know if having Elanthia consumed by a black hole of unreality as the fabric of magic warps the world into a gaping hellscape of entropic terror is something you'd be getting at 150th :P
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 03:11 PM CST
>Lich Penelope
It should be noted, that Armifer has already comment that she was not a lich. Everyone may have called her that, but she was actually most likely a very advanced Risen. (Yes, likely some retconning going on, but whatcha gonna do?)
>Its of interest to note the case of the Y'shai= how they are "made" -- and interestingly enough, there is a "construct" within the walls of the imperial palace. <and we won't even mention what the Tezerites have in THEIR sect hall there... shhhh!>
Y'shai are neither constructs or undead. They are... basically a living being fused with so much enchantment and lunar mana that their bodies are sustained by it. An analogy would be magical cyborgs rather than robots or zombies.
>Why do the gods never strike down bone elves if "necromancy is necromancy?" ... But do the bone elves immediately "connect" to some sort of demon patron immediately upon "joining" or however they enter their cult? Just curious as to how other schools of necromancy "work".
If you go by what Armifer implies... yes. There's a demon involved somewhere, most likely.
>And the Liches don't get randomly smited for reasons known only to the immortals.
Liches don't get struck down because they don't have souls anymore, which makes it more difficult for the Immortals to interact with them directly.
>Wasn't it said that those Empaths that practiced Necromancy disappear?
Yes.
>what then in her case, or was it because she used bugs and not actual necromantic spells that she was able to avoid being made to disappear?
It's much like the avengers. She didn't do anything directly, so she was fine. There's nothing that says Empaths can't work with Necromancers (beyond society and the Immortals, that is).
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It should be noted, that Armifer has already comment that she was not a lich. Everyone may have called her that, but she was actually most likely a very advanced Risen. (Yes, likely some retconning going on, but whatcha gonna do?)
>Its of interest to note the case of the Y'shai= how they are "made" -- and interestingly enough, there is a "construct" within the walls of the imperial palace. <and we won't even mention what the Tezerites have in THEIR sect hall there... shhhh!>
Y'shai are neither constructs or undead. They are... basically a living being fused with so much enchantment and lunar mana that their bodies are sustained by it. An analogy would be magical cyborgs rather than robots or zombies.
>Why do the gods never strike down bone elves if "necromancy is necromancy?" ... But do the bone elves immediately "connect" to some sort of demon patron immediately upon "joining" or however they enter their cult? Just curious as to how other schools of necromancy "work".
If you go by what Armifer implies... yes. There's a demon involved somewhere, most likely.
>And the Liches don't get randomly smited for reasons known only to the immortals.
Liches don't get struck down because they don't have souls anymore, which makes it more difficult for the Immortals to interact with them directly.
>Wasn't it said that those Empaths that practiced Necromancy disappear?
Yes.
>what then in her case, or was it because she used bugs and not actual necromantic spells that she was able to avoid being made to disappear?
It's much like the avengers. She didn't do anything directly, so she was fine. There's nothing that says Empaths can't work with Necromancers (beyond society and the Immortals, that is).
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TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 08:29 PM CST
>>Y'shai are neither constructs or undead. They are... basically a living being fused with so much enchantment and lunar mana that their bodies are sustained by it. An analogy would be magical cyborgs rather than robots or zombies.
Y'shai are closer to constructs than they are living beings. If I remember right, part of the Y'shai process involves removing the person's soul. When a Y'shai walks, their messaging explicitly pointed out their damnation due to their soul being screwed up.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Category:Y'Shai
http://www.elanthipedia.com/w/index.php/Stavro
Y'shai are closer to constructs than they are living beings. If I remember right, part of the Y'shai process involves removing the person's soul. When a Y'shai walks, their messaging explicitly pointed out their damnation due to their soul being screwed up.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Category:Y'Shai
http://www.elanthipedia.com/w/index.php/Stavro
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 08:39 PM CST
>If I remember right, part of the Y'shai process involves removing the person's soul.
It doesn't remove it (and even if it did, it would not be a construct, but necromancy), it damages it to the point where it's lost upon death.
"A meteor streaks across the sky but Stavro's soul is forsaken from walking the Starry Road, lost forever."
The soul still left the body upon his death... it just didn't get to go anywhere.
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It doesn't remove it (and even if it did, it would not be a construct, but necromancy), it damages it to the point where it's lost upon death.
"A meteor streaks across the sky but Stavro's soul is forsaken from walking the Starry Road, lost forever."
The soul still left the body upon his death... it just didn't get to go anywhere.
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TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 09:03 PM CST
>>It doesn't remove it (and even if it did, it would not be a construct, but necromancy)
You can have a necromantic construct. Necromancy ain't nothin but a word, baby!
>>It damages it to the point where it's lost upon death.
True: I should have just said horribly torn apart to a former shell of itself, but in the end it's pretty damn close to gone.
That said, Necromancers are kinda the same way: they're not soulless, either (Lich theories possibly exempt from this, of course). Be it Necromancer or Y'shai, someone screwed around with their soul (or had someone screw around with it), so they don't get to go to DR-heaven. Now, some level of soul-screwing around results in being stuck in DR-purgatory (see: Y'shai), while other levels of soul-screwing around results in being sent to DR-hell (see: Necromancers going to the Red Spiral).
So, yes, while it's still "there" for both of them, to a point, you're pretty much sacrificing it for "power" either way.
That said, I would find it pretty amusing if the Temple is cool with absolutely ravaging someone's soul to the point where it can't even walk the Starry Road, but if you go one step further THEN you'd be in trouble.
AFAIK, the entire Y'shai process is a sorcerous one, anyway. It's not like it's Lunar magic being Lunary and timespace-eating like it always is. It's a lot more... screwy. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Y'Shai-making process and Philosopher-making process has a good chunk of overlap.
You can have a necromantic construct. Necromancy ain't nothin but a word, baby!
>>It damages it to the point where it's lost upon death.
True: I should have just said horribly torn apart to a former shell of itself, but in the end it's pretty damn close to gone.
That said, Necromancers are kinda the same way: they're not soulless, either (Lich theories possibly exempt from this, of course). Be it Necromancer or Y'shai, someone screwed around with their soul (or had someone screw around with it), so they don't get to go to DR-heaven. Now, some level of soul-screwing around results in being stuck in DR-purgatory (see: Y'shai), while other levels of soul-screwing around results in being sent to DR-hell (see: Necromancers going to the Red Spiral).
So, yes, while it's still "there" for both of them, to a point, you're pretty much sacrificing it for "power" either way.
That said, I would find it pretty amusing if the Temple is cool with absolutely ravaging someone's soul to the point where it can't even walk the Starry Road, but if you go one step further THEN you'd be in trouble.
AFAIK, the entire Y'shai process is a sorcerous one, anyway. It's not like it's Lunar magic being Lunary and timespace-eating like it always is. It's a lot more... screwy. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Y'Shai-making process and Philosopher-making process has a good chunk of overlap.
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 09:20 PM CST
>You can have a necromantic construct.
This is true, but there is an important distinction.
Construct: a thing that was never alive, animated by magic (may or may not be Necromantic, not the point)
Undead: a thing that once was alive, animated by misapplied life energy (must be either Necromantic or direct divine intervention)
Y'shai cannot be the first, by definition, and probably aren't the second.
>Be it Necromancer or Y'shai, someone screwed around with their soul (or had someone screw around with it), so they don't get to go to DR-heaven.
>>while other levels of soul-screwing around results in being sent to DR-hell (see: Necromancers going to the Red Spiral).
I think you're either misunderstanding, or stating it wierdly. Necromancers don't not go to DR-Heaven because they pissed off the gods by their own actions, not the state of their soul. Its the whatever happens to their soul which prevents them from going to the red spiral (DR-Hell) when they die.
And as wierd as it seems to us, the Starry Road is DR-heaven. Unless you're a Prydaen, and in that case, no one cares. :P
>Now, some level of soul-screwing around results in being stuck in DR-purgatory (see: Y'shai),
Actually, in this case, the level of soul-screwing is such that their soul is just lost. It doesn't go anywhere, it's just gone.
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This is true, but there is an important distinction.
Construct: a thing that was never alive, animated by magic (may or may not be Necromantic, not the point)
Undead: a thing that once was alive, animated by misapplied life energy (must be either Necromantic or direct divine intervention)
Y'shai cannot be the first, by definition, and probably aren't the second.
>Be it Necromancer or Y'shai, someone screwed around with their soul (or had someone screw around with it), so they don't get to go to DR-heaven.
>>while other levels of soul-screwing around results in being sent to DR-hell (see: Necromancers going to the Red Spiral).
I think you're either misunderstanding, or stating it wierdly. Necromancers don't not go to DR-Heaven because they pissed off the gods by their own actions, not the state of their soul. Its the whatever happens to their soul which prevents them from going to the red spiral (DR-Hell) when they die.
And as wierd as it seems to us, the Starry Road is DR-heaven. Unless you're a Prydaen, and in that case, no one cares. :P
>Now, some level of soul-screwing around results in being stuck in DR-purgatory (see: Y'shai),
Actually, in this case, the level of soul-screwing is such that their soul is just lost. It doesn't go anywhere, it's just gone.
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TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 10:08 PM CST
>>Construct: a thing that was never alive, animated by magic (may or may not be Necromantic, not the point)
For the sake of what counts in the eyes of an Empath, maybe, but hollowing out the organs from some dude, replacing all the important parts with a cambrinth life support system, and making him run on Lunar mana sounds pretty construct-like, to me, although necromantic is kinda an option there, too.
>>Necromancers don't not go to DR-Heaven because they pissed off the gods by their own actions, not the state of their soul. Its the whatever happens to their soul which prevents them from going to the red spiral (DR-Hell) when they die.
Unless I'm misreading you saying the opposite, Necromancers do generally go to the Red Spiral when they die sans Profane Aegis.
>>Actually, in this case, the level of soul-screwing is such that their soul is just lost. It doesn't go anywhere, it's just gone.
I don't know if forsaken explicitly means lost. It just means forsaken. Unless the language is just coincidental, it sounds a lot like the same kind of spiritual abandonment the Immortals give Necromancers. It wouldn't shock me if the only reason the Immortals aren't as aggressively... aggressive toward Y'shai as they are Necromancers is because Y'shai are, in the larger scale of things, rather inconsequential to the whole being an affront to the gods. Sure, they messed around with their souls to gain more power, but they're not warping the way life works and getting all up in the Immortal's business and they seem to die/walk responsibly as opposed to trying to get around it. Y'shai tend to take their medicine and accept being Forsaken. Necromancers appear to think they're beyond that kind of sacrifice.
For the sake of what counts in the eyes of an Empath, maybe, but hollowing out the organs from some dude, replacing all the important parts with a cambrinth life support system, and making him run on Lunar mana sounds pretty construct-like, to me, although necromantic is kinda an option there, too.
>>Necromancers don't not go to DR-Heaven because they pissed off the gods by their own actions, not the state of their soul. Its the whatever happens to their soul which prevents them from going to the red spiral (DR-Hell) when they die.
Unless I'm misreading you saying the opposite, Necromancers do generally go to the Red Spiral when they die sans Profane Aegis.
>>Actually, in this case, the level of soul-screwing is such that their soul is just lost. It doesn't go anywhere, it's just gone.
I don't know if forsaken explicitly means lost. It just means forsaken. Unless the language is just coincidental, it sounds a lot like the same kind of spiritual abandonment the Immortals give Necromancers. It wouldn't shock me if the only reason the Immortals aren't as aggressively... aggressive toward Y'shai as they are Necromancers is because Y'shai are, in the larger scale of things, rather inconsequential to the whole being an affront to the gods. Sure, they messed around with their souls to gain more power, but they're not warping the way life works and getting all up in the Immortal's business and they seem to die/walk responsibly as opposed to trying to get around it. Y'shai tend to take their medicine and accept being Forsaken. Necromancers appear to think they're beyond that kind of sacrifice.
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 10:28 PM CST
>For the sake of what counts in the eyes of an Empath
According to Solomon, a construct is "Any creature that is created by and controlled by an outside force, and has no independent will or life force of its own." (http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Well_Hello,_Dolly_-_10/17/2009_-_23:36:38)
>Unless I'm misreading you saying the opposite, Necromancers do generally go to the Red Spiral when they die sans Profane Aegis.
Yes, but not because there's any damage to their souls.
>I don't know if forsaken explicitly means lost. It just means forsaken. Unless the language is just coincidental, it sounds a lot like the same kind of spiritual abandonment the Immortals give Necromancers.
I disagree, but I can't muster any real proof to give. I can only base it off the response I got from Armifer years ago (which I did not archive) when I brought up PCs becoming Y'shai. In addition, the whole Y'shai thing happened long before a lot of the soul and necromancy stuff was fleshed out, and I just don't know if it still stands.
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According to Solomon, a construct is "Any creature that is created by and controlled by an outside force, and has no independent will or life force of its own." (http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Well_Hello,_Dolly_-_10/17/2009_-_23:36:38)
>Unless I'm misreading you saying the opposite, Necromancers do generally go to the Red Spiral when they die sans Profane Aegis.
Yes, but not because there's any damage to their souls.
>I don't know if forsaken explicitly means lost. It just means forsaken. Unless the language is just coincidental, it sounds a lot like the same kind of spiritual abandonment the Immortals give Necromancers.
I disagree, but I can't muster any real proof to give. I can only base it off the response I got from Armifer years ago (which I did not archive) when I brought up PCs becoming Y'shai. In addition, the whole Y'shai thing happened long before a lot of the soul and necromancy stuff was fleshed out, and I just don't know if it still stands.
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TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 10:45 PM CST
>>Yes, but not because there's any damage to their souls.
AFAIK, a Necromancer's soul gets screwed up/corrupted/damaged quite a bit. That kind of damage/desecration makes the Immortals either go "well, that gotta get fixed before you come inside" or "well, that's not going to be let in here" (depending on which theologian you ask), but either way you end up in the Red Spiral as a result.
AFAIK, a Necromancer's soul gets screwed up/corrupted/damaged quite a bit. That kind of damage/desecration makes the Immortals either go "well, that gotta get fixed before you come inside" or "well, that's not going to be let in here" (depending on which theologian you ask), but either way you end up in the Red Spiral as a result.
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 10:53 PM CST
>AFAIK, a Necromancer's soul gets screwed up/corrupted/damaged quite a bit. That kind of damage/desecration makes the Immortals either go "well, that gotta get fixed before you come inside" or "well, that's not going to be let in here" (depending on which theologian you ask), but either way you end up in the Red Spiral as a result.
I've never seen anything that says that, could you provide a source?
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I've never seen anything that says that, could you provide a source?
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TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 11:20 PM CST
If you're asking if a Necromancer corrupts his/her soul by the innate nature of being part of the guild: http://elanthipedia.com/w/index.php/Redeemed_(ideology)#Can_Redeemed_Necromancers_switch_guilds.3F
If you're asking about the Red Spiral logic, it's not GM-OOC but a GM-IC perspective: http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Death_and_the_Soul_-_5/11/2009_-_1:39:41
If you're asking about the Red Spiral logic, it's not GM-OOC but a GM-IC perspective: http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Death_and_the_Soul_-_5/11/2009_-_1:39:41
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/02/2012 11:31 PM CST
>They may be redeemed in the eyes of the gods, but the damage they inflicted on their souls is still there.
I see that to be a more poetic use of the word "soul" than literal.
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I see that to be a more poetic use of the word "soul" than literal.
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MELLIONM6
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/03/2012 03:34 PM CST
Not to butt into a private conversation here, but the messaging indicates Raist is right on both accounts (Y'shai and Necromancers). Necromancers, at the onset of their careers are not forsaken. They (can) still receive the favor of the gods despite...whatever is done to them in the process of becoming a philosopher. I believe it reasonable to think that the Philosopher yet-unforsaken could reach the starry road though since permadeath was removed before the necros guild was created, this was never testable with a PC and all NPC necros seem to be already forsaken. They can also use their necromantic talents to create an unlimited number of constructs (given sufficient time between ... can you become forsaken with casting CFB / SR?) without becoming forsaken.
Unless the acts resulting in becoming forsaken actually damage the soul, Raist's comments about going to the Red Spiral for ticking off the immortals rather than because of damage to their souls seems to make more sense. The lore-presence of Redeemed also suggests that it is acceptance of the immortals and not damage to the soul that prevents Necros from going to the Starry Road, unless, of course, the process of becoming Redeemed repairs a soul's damage.
As for Y'shai, the words "lost forever" in their death description seems to suggest that the soul is destroyed, not that it went somewhere, although I think there is a great deal more interpretation of those two words than there is with necromaners.
--Croegar/Shatteringwave/Someone Else
K>think
You try, but in the cramped confines of the tunnel, there's just no room to do that.
Unless the acts resulting in becoming forsaken actually damage the soul, Raist's comments about going to the Red Spiral for ticking off the immortals rather than because of damage to their souls seems to make more sense. The lore-presence of Redeemed also suggests that it is acceptance of the immortals and not damage to the soul that prevents Necros from going to the Starry Road, unless, of course, the process of becoming Redeemed repairs a soul's damage.
As for Y'shai, the words "lost forever" in their death description seems to suggest that the soul is destroyed, not that it went somewhere, although I think there is a great deal more interpretation of those two words than there is with necromaners.
--Croegar/Shatteringwave/Someone Else
K>think
You try, but in the cramped confines of the tunnel, there's just no room to do that.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/03/2012 04:26 PM CST
>>Necromancers, at the onset of their careers are not forsaken. They (can) still receive the favor of the gods despite...whatever is done to them in the process of becoming a philosopher.
And, eventually, their corruption overcomes that and their soul gets rather broken.
Just because the notably-soul-damaged part it isn't as instant as flipping a switch (like it may be for Y'shai) doesn't make it less "your soul breaks due to being a Necromancer"
>>Unless the acts resulting in becoming forsaken actually damage the soul, Raist's comments about going to the Red Spiral for ticking off the immortals rather than because of damage to their souls seems to make more sense.
Rather big unless.
>>The lore-presence of Redeemed also suggests that it is acceptance of the immortals and not damage to the soul that prevents Necros from going to the Starry Road, unless, of course, the process of becoming Redeemed repairs a soul's damage.
Or the ability to gain favors and a "fixed soul" aren't connected. Or having a damaged soul and automatically going to the Red Spiral as a result isn't connected.
Or etc etc etc.
And, eventually, their corruption overcomes that and their soul gets rather broken.
Just because the notably-soul-damaged part it isn't as instant as flipping a switch (like it may be for Y'shai) doesn't make it less "your soul breaks due to being a Necromancer"
>>Unless the acts resulting in becoming forsaken actually damage the soul, Raist's comments about going to the Red Spiral for ticking off the immortals rather than because of damage to their souls seems to make more sense.
Rather big unless.
>>The lore-presence of Redeemed also suggests that it is acceptance of the immortals and not damage to the soul that prevents Necros from going to the Starry Road, unless, of course, the process of becoming Redeemed repairs a soul's damage.
Or the ability to gain favors and a "fixed soul" aren't connected. Or having a damaged soul and automatically going to the Red Spiral as a result isn't connected.
Or etc etc etc.
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/03/2012 04:50 PM CST
>Not to butt into a private conversation here,
Not a private conversation, all are welcome. :P
I think it's gotten to the point of becoming "well I think... but I can't prove it."
So feel free to add your opinions, everyone.
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Not a private conversation, all are welcome. :P
I think it's gotten to the point of becoming "well I think... but I can't prove it."
So feel free to add your opinions, everyone.
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ALEPH-ONE
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/03/2012 05:11 PM CST
>>Raist's comments about going to the Red Spiral for ticking off the immortals rather than because of damage to their souls seems to make more sense.
For what it's worth, when the lunatic necromancer NPC Sejaro departed, it seemed clear his soul was accepted to the Starry Road. If I recall correctly it was "cleansed of its profane aegis."
>>The lore-presence of Redeemed also suggests that it is acceptance of the immortals and not damage to the soul that prevents Necros from going to the Starry Road, unless, of course, the process of becoming Redeemed repairs a soul's damage.
Seems to me from the "cleansing" message, that the soul is damaged/sullied and this is precisely what ticks off the Immortals?
-- Player of Eyuve
For what it's worth, when the lunatic necromancer NPC Sejaro departed, it seemed clear his soul was accepted to the Starry Road. If I recall correctly it was "cleansed of its profane aegis."
>>The lore-presence of Redeemed also suggests that it is acceptance of the immortals and not damage to the soul that prevents Necros from going to the Starry Road, unless, of course, the process of becoming Redeemed repairs a soul's damage.
Seems to me from the "cleansing" message, that the soul is damaged/sullied and this is precisely what ticks off the Immortals?
-- Player of Eyuve
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/03/2012 05:35 PM CST
>Seems to me from the "cleansing" message, that the soul is damaged/sullied and this is precisely what ticks off the Immortals?
Casting CFB or SR twice is what ticks the immortals off. Prior to that, you are treated as normal, as far as dying goes. We've been told before, profane aegis, whatever else it does, is a way to protect oneself from the Immortals judgement... until it's gone. It's what ensures you come back to life when you depart and the gods don't like you.
As for Sejaro specifically, either someone screwed up upstairs... or maybe the gods allow an insanity defense? I don't know, I wasn't following the plot.
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Casting CFB or SR twice is what ticks the immortals off. Prior to that, you are treated as normal, as far as dying goes. We've been told before, profane aegis, whatever else it does, is a way to protect oneself from the Immortals judgement... until it's gone. It's what ensures you come back to life when you depart and the gods don't like you.
As for Sejaro specifically, either someone screwed up upstairs... or maybe the gods allow an insanity defense? I don't know, I wasn't following the plot.
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FELONIOUSPI
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/03/2012 06:50 PM CST
> I don't know if having Elanthia consumed by a black hole of unreality as the fabric of magic warps the world into a gaping hellscape of entropic terror is something you'd be getting at 150th :P
I know , that blows . So unfair lol .
Not the Great Work . I was really referring to the assumed "Taint" a Necromancer accumulates through "sins" such as are seen in the DO system . It would make since if this "taint" somehow uncontrollably affected other things. Say , herbs only have a limited life span when touched by a Necro , or random stenches of decay room messaging off of the Necro's person. There are many possibilities.
I know , that blows . So unfair lol .
Not the Great Work . I was really referring to the assumed "Taint" a Necromancer accumulates through "sins" such as are seen in the DO system . It would make since if this "taint" somehow uncontrollably affected other things. Say , herbs only have a limited life span when touched by a Necro , or random stenches of decay room messaging off of the Necro's person. There are many possibilities.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/04/2012 06:17 AM CST
>>As for Sejaro specifically, either someone screwed up upstairs... or maybe the gods allow an insanity defense? I don't know, I wasn't following the plot.
There are a couple steadfast rules and a singular point of no return (Lichdom), but the Immortals have always been just as capable of whims of mercy as they are whims of anger (auto-killing Necros with high DO). The whole conceit of a Redeemed Necromancer PC eventually being playable would involve, I assume, a guilded Necromancer once again getting favors from the Immortals.
There are a couple steadfast rules and a singular point of no return (Lichdom), but the Immortals have always been just as capable of whims of mercy as they are whims of anger (auto-killing Necros with high DO). The whole conceit of a Redeemed Necromancer PC eventually being playable would involve, I assume, a guilded Necromancer once again getting favors from the Immortals.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 07:58 PM CST
This thread is the best gift someone could give me after getting out of the hospital.
I won't address a point by point (too many points) except one that comes immediately to mind: yes, a Necromancer that permadied before becoming Forsaken would walk the Starry Road like a normal person. Assuming no mitigating factors (don't die by being sacrificed on top of a demonic alter).
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I won't address a point by point (too many points) except one that comes immediately to mind: yes, a Necromancer that permadied before becoming Forsaken would walk the Starry Road like a normal person. Assuming no mitigating factors (don't die by being sacrificed on top of a demonic alter).
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 08:24 PM CST
>This thread is the best gift someone could give me after getting out of the hospital.
AHHHHH!!!!
(Hope you're better)
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
AHHHHH!!!!
(Hope you're better)
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 08:28 PM CST
>a Necromancer that permadied before becoming Forsaken would walk the Starry Road like a normal person
Then thats seems to clinch it. Being Forsaken (pissing off the gods due to your own actions) is what makes you go to the Red Spiral.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Then thats seems to clinch it. Being Forsaken (pissing off the gods due to your own actions) is what makes you go to the Red Spiral.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
SHADOW7988
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 08:31 PM CST
(don't die by being sacrificed on top of a demonic alter).
So if some Demonic Necromancer types sacrificed people on their demonic alter, they don't walk the starry road?
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
So if some Demonic Necromancer types sacrificed people on their demonic alter, they don't walk the starry road?
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
