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>>(Hope you're better)
Well enough to be out. It'll take a bit to fully recover.
>>So if some Demonic Necromancer types sacrificed people on their demonic alter, they don't walk the starry road?
The physics behind this is the sort of thing high circle Clerics with four-digit Theurgy argue about, but certain conditions can cause a demon to function as a localized deity for most purposes.
It's not a sure thing, but it's a thing that can happen.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DR-ARMIFER
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 10:14 PM CST
>>Being Forsaken (pissing off the gods due to your own actions) is what makes you go to the Red Spiral.
If becoming Forsaken is actually something done at the decision of the Immortals and not due to some unknown magical factors that happen as a result of using certain magical patterns. :D
Which, admittedly, is where some fun theoretical debates come in about what actual powers the Immortals have as opposed to what powers the unwashed masses claim they have as a result of their own ignorance and blind loyalty toward the Immortals.
If becoming Forsaken is actually something done at the decision of the Immortals and not due to some unknown magical factors that happen as a result of using certain magical patterns. :D
Which, admittedly, is where some fun theoretical debates come in about what actual powers the Immortals have as opposed to what powers the unwashed masses claim they have as a result of their own ignorance and blind loyalty toward the Immortals.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 10:32 PM CST
>>Which, admittedly, is where some fun theoretical debates come in about what actual powers the Immortals have as opposed to what powers the unwashed masses claim they have as a result of their own ignorance and blind loyalty toward the Immortals.
The real answer is "less than you might imagine, more than you might suspect."
A lot of the esoteric issues with Necromancers and their interaction with the universe comes down to "Gods play by rules."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
The real answer is "less than you might imagine, more than you might suspect."
A lot of the esoteric issues with Necromancers and their interaction with the universe comes down to "Gods play by rules."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 10:50 PM CST
>"Gods play by rules."
That seems to be a very odd statement. To me, that implies that there are rules for Immortals we don't understand, and possibly there are beings out there with Immortal-like powers that don't play by the rules.
Both of those have very interesting implications.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
That seems to be a very odd statement. To me, that implies that there are rules for Immortals we don't understand, and possibly there are beings out there with Immortal-like powers that don't play by the rules.
Both of those have very interesting implications.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
CRAVYD
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 10:58 PM CST
Well, we already know that Demons also exist. We just don't know them well, yet.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 11:05 PM CST
>>>"Gods play by rules." That seems to be a very odd statement. To me, that implies that there are rules for Immortals we don't understand, and possibly there are beings out there with Immortal-like powers that don't play by the rules.
>>Both of those have very interesting implications.
I think the gyst of it is that the Gods affect the plane of abiding with near limitless power, but doing so has consequences, kind of a cosmic Newtonian push/pull.
It reminds me a bit of the 'ol Moon Mage debate about the constellations; what has power, the forms themselves, or the forms symbolic link to the divine? Conversely, what has power, the divine, or the divines symbolic link to the cosmos?
>>Both of those have very interesting implications.
I think the gyst of it is that the Gods affect the plane of abiding with near limitless power, but doing so has consequences, kind of a cosmic Newtonian push/pull.
It reminds me a bit of the 'ol Moon Mage debate about the constellations; what has power, the forms themselves, or the forms symbolic link to the divine? Conversely, what has power, the divine, or the divines symbolic link to the cosmos?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 11:06 PM CST
>>To me, that implies that there are rules for Immortals we don't understand, and possibly there are beings out there with Immortal-like powers that don't play by the rules.
The basic stories of DR mythology suppose creatures that supersede the Immortals and either implicitly have power over them (Heralds) or get to go smashy-smashy at whim (the World Dragon).
The idea that the gods have rules isn't anything new. The big problem for the Philosophers and anyone else jonesing for theosis is the Immortals don't need to tell you what the rules are.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
The basic stories of DR mythology suppose creatures that supersede the Immortals and either implicitly have power over them (Heralds) or get to go smashy-smashy at whim (the World Dragon).
The idea that the gods have rules isn't anything new. The big problem for the Philosophers and anyone else jonesing for theosis is the Immortals don't need to tell you what the rules are.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
RAIST
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 11:15 PM CST
>The basic stories of DR mythology suppose creatures that supersede the Immortals and either implicitly have power over them (Heralds) or get to go smashy-smashy at whim (the World Dragon).
That brings up the interesting question of why Immortals choose to or have to obey the rules when other things don't. Is it a limit to their power? Part of the inherent nature of godhood? The result of benefitting from something else that the other creatures don't?
And of course, where do demons fall in the rule system, assuming it's even consistent amongst them.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
That brings up the interesting question of why Immortals choose to or have to obey the rules when other things don't. Is it a limit to their power? Part of the inherent nature of godhood? The result of benefitting from something else that the other creatures don't?
And of course, where do demons fall in the rule system, assuming it's even consistent amongst them.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
CRAVYD
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/06/2012 11:41 PM CST
That brings up another question. The rules that the Immortals play by, are they perhaps self-imposed? Agreed upon by the Immortals for their immortality?
Or are these rules the expressive limits to their abilities and/or powers? What would happen if one of the Immortals broke one of their own rules? Would that particular Immortal be henceforth cast out from the others? Would it even be possible?
If the rules are what define the antithetical good vs bad, right vs wrong, then I would assume demons would be the destruction to balance the gods' creation. Their role within the rule system would be to either break all the rules, or follow a more contrasting subset than that which the Immortals follow.
Or are these rules the expressive limits to their abilities and/or powers? What would happen if one of the Immortals broke one of their own rules? Would that particular Immortal be henceforth cast out from the others? Would it even be possible?
If the rules are what define the antithetical good vs bad, right vs wrong, then I would assume demons would be the destruction to balance the gods' creation. Their role within the rule system would be to either break all the rules, or follow a more contrasting subset than that which the Immortals follow.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/07/2012 12:22 AM CST
>>A lot of the esoteric issues with Necromancers and their interaction with the universe comes down to "Gods play by rules."
Good thing Necros don't! ::wrecks reality::
>>That brings up the interesting question of why Immortals choose to or have to obey the rules when other things don't.
I don't think they choose too. While the Immortals look like they're infinitely powered from our scale, that doesn't mean they're actually infinitely powered. Gods have clear weaknesses and have had those weaknesses exploited in the past (hello North Wind Banshee!).
IMO, I would not be surprised in the least if calling them Immortals is a bit of a misnomer which is taking place based on the bias of an observer who just can't properly process the scale of the Immortals all that well.
It's like asking if Agonar has any rules to obey when responding to a Commoner that points out how his favorite chakrel knicknack looks like a runestone, only on a much much much grander scale. The Commoner might be going "wow, I really kinda don't have much of an option when it comes to this guy beating my face in, so no one must have that option," but that's because the Commoner can't process the idea of ever having the power to take on Agonar.
Good thing Necros don't! ::wrecks reality::
>>That brings up the interesting question of why Immortals choose to or have to obey the rules when other things don't.
I don't think they choose too. While the Immortals look like they're infinitely powered from our scale, that doesn't mean they're actually infinitely powered. Gods have clear weaknesses and have had those weaknesses exploited in the past (hello North Wind Banshee!).
IMO, I would not be surprised in the least if calling them Immortals is a bit of a misnomer which is taking place based on the bias of an observer who just can't properly process the scale of the Immortals all that well.
It's like asking if Agonar has any rules to obey when responding to a Commoner that points out how his favorite chakrel knicknack looks like a runestone, only on a much much much grander scale. The Commoner might be going "wow, I really kinda don't have much of an option when it comes to this guy beating my face in, so no one must have that option," but that's because the Commoner can't process the idea of ever having the power to take on Agonar.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/07/2012 01:17 AM CST
The problem (or "problem") with simply writing off the Immortals as supermen is you start getting into an infinite regress problem. It'd be particularly horrific for a group of people that are trying to sell their souls for a form of godhood to find that it's turtles all the way down.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/07/2012 06:39 AM CST
>>The problem (or "problem") with simply writing off the Immortals as supermen is you start getting into an infinite regress problem. It'd be particularly horrific for a group of people that are trying to sell their souls for a form of godhood to find that it's turtles all the way down.
Welcome back Armifer! Feel better.
Welcome back Armifer! Feel better.
SHADOW7988
Re: Enlightenment on past visions
03/07/2012 05:05 PM CST
When I see these rules, that Armifier talks of, I imagine more of a universe code, magic having its own rules, just like gravity, mass, physics and what not having, and while magic can do all sorts of beyond ordinary things, it still has hard and fast rules, that no matter how powerful you are or fantastic your desire, things just are a certain way, magic can't ascend through that, or descend or whatever.
These rules are, from my perspective apparent from the demons, to the immortals, to the teaming masses of Elanthia.
Of course, I'd like to suggest that things like Heralds would have too to, but perhaps that's just beyond my scope.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
These rules are, from my perspective apparent from the demons, to the immortals, to the teaming masses of Elanthia.
Of course, I'd like to suggest that things like Heralds would have too to, but perhaps that's just beyond my scope.
_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
