Previous
>Then again, if you just don't believe the Immortals are gods, as much as really strong overlords who like to act like they're deities, then yes you can probably consider yourself an atheist.
TEVESHSZAT came the closest to my meaning in using the term atheist. I didn't necessarily to imply the gods don't exist, but am considering... what if my Necromancer doesn't believe the pantheon are all-powerful creator deities and/or are not deserving of 'worship'? There are a number of relationships that can be explored.
But I think the narrow sense I intended when I said "atheist" was the sense in which science is atheistic: not so much regarding the belief system of the scientist, but rather regarding the method of the science. I'm trying to point to a very fine line, I guess.
Imagine that all other "magic guilds" are either theistic or quasi-agnostic. Clerics and Paladins are obviously theistic, but what about Moon Mages and Warrior Mages? Their craft does not beseech nor depend on the gods directly. But, by their relatively peaceful relations with the gods, they must somehow be in harmonious subservience to the gods nonetheless.
Now, what if a Necromancer school of thought believes the gods exist, but that they are merely a group of ultra-powerful interlopers who have usurped a power and status they do not deserve. The Necro could desire to undo them, overthrow them. Or the Necro simply might want to worship the 'True Creator' power, or merely practice an ancient form of spirituality.
Or are Necros 'scientists' who do not conform to the divisions of the forms of power flowing through the world, and because they combine those forms, threaten to come closer to becoming gods themselves? Perhaps a Necromancer might consider his/her craft to be the same apotheosizing method the gods themselves used to assume their 'divine' status?
I'm threading a needle here. These ideas are really only nuances of the Perverse and Philosophers. I'm sort of exploring the boundaries of the schools of thought before I decide where, within the space of those schools, my character exists.
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
DARTHIEL
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 03:08 PM CDT
FWIW, I remember having a couple conversations, as my Moon mage, about the link between the constellations and their symbols, and the Immortals and their animal associations. What grants what power, the symbol of the constellations, or the Immortals connecting to them?
Moon Mages aren't atheists, they're just paying attention to other things. They still recognize the power of the Immortals, they just also recognize the power of the cosmos. The same can be said of any non-Holy guild really; the Immortals are immensely powerful forces, but Barbarians trust in their bodies, Bards in their songs, War mages in the elements, Moon mages in the movement of the universe, etc, etc... Whether or not those forces were put into motion or watched over or in turn, led to the creation of the Immortals is another issue. Chicken and Egg sort of thing.
Moon Mages aren't atheists, they're just paying attention to other things. They still recognize the power of the Immortals, they just also recognize the power of the cosmos. The same can be said of any non-Holy guild really; the Immortals are immensely powerful forces, but Barbarians trust in their bodies, Bards in their songs, War mages in the elements, Moon mages in the movement of the universe, etc, etc... Whether or not those forces were put into motion or watched over or in turn, led to the creation of the Immortals is another issue. Chicken and Egg sort of thing.
DARTHIEL
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 03:20 PM CDT
>Moon Mages aren't atheists, they're just paying attention to other things. They still recognize the power of the Immortals, they just also recognize the power of the cosmos. The same can be said of any non-Holy guild really; the Immortals are immensely powerful forces, but Barbarians trust in their bodies, Bards in their songs, War mages in the elements, Moon mages in the movement of the universe, etc, etc... Whether or not those forces were put into motion or watched over or in turn, led to the creation of the Immortals is another issue. Chicken and Egg sort of thing.
Yeah, there's an interesting discussion in there, but we KNOW that somehow Necro's are DIFFERENT from those other guilds in their relationship with those higher powers. What if the Necro sees those guilds as 'children playing with the toys (ineffectual disctractions) the so-called "gods" have given to them'?
I would bet a lot of these points have been brought up in the nearly two years of public development I've missed, but reading through all those years of posts is daunting to say the least! Anyone know if it would be worth it for me to try?
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
Yeah, there's an interesting discussion in there, but we KNOW that somehow Necro's are DIFFERENT from those other guilds in their relationship with those higher powers. What if the Necro sees those guilds as 'children playing with the toys (ineffectual disctractions) the so-called "gods" have given to them'?
I would bet a lot of these points have been brought up in the nearly two years of public development I've missed, but reading through all those years of posts is daunting to say the least! Anyone know if it would be worth it for me to try?
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 03:31 PM CDT
Yeah, I think that's perfectly reasonable. A Necromancer's Great Work seems, to me, an effort at achieving *at least* what the Immortals have achieved.
To use a really groan worthy cliche, it's the difference between an Agent and Neo. Yes, the Agents are insanely powerful and fast, but Neo, Neo rewrites reality. The other guilds may be Agents, and Necromancers may be Neo. The question becomes whether or not it's possible to actually reach Neo's status, or whether or not you'll break the Matrix in the process of getting there.
History suggests that changing the fundamentals of reality to fit your whims are a bad thing.
To use a really groan worthy cliche, it's the difference between an Agent and Neo. Yes, the Agents are insanely powerful and fast, but Neo, Neo rewrites reality. The other guilds may be Agents, and Necromancers may be Neo. The question becomes whether or not it's possible to actually reach Neo's status, or whether or not you'll break the Matrix in the process of getting there.
History suggests that changing the fundamentals of reality to fit your whims are a bad thing.
NECROBURTON
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 04:10 PM CDT
>>It'd be a curious outlook to have, that the Gods weren't Gods, but were just incredibly powerful beings that altered the scope of our world/universe and were the purveyors of existential issues... But definitely not Gods.<<
Actually, that's exactly the outlook that most Philosophers of the Knife have. They believe that the gods are merely beings that have transcended us, and are beyond us simply because they possess more knowledge/power.
To quote Armifer:
"Freely choosing to dedicate oneself to transcendence, to project out into the world the will to shape it, is what Kigot calls the fundamental Work, the first and most primal of all possible projections."
So... yeah, most of us who follow the Philosophy simply believe that the gods are a sort of spiritual despots in desperate need of being deposed.
- L.A.
Actually, that's exactly the outlook that most Philosophers of the Knife have. They believe that the gods are merely beings that have transcended us, and are beyond us simply because they possess more knowledge/power.
To quote Armifer:
"Freely choosing to dedicate oneself to transcendence, to project out into the world the will to shape it, is what Kigot calls the fundamental Work, the first and most primal of all possible projections."
So... yeah, most of us who follow the Philosophy simply believe that the gods are a sort of spiritual despots in desperate need of being deposed.
- L.A.
LEYL1
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 04:30 PM CDT
>>Now, what if a Necromancer school of thought believes the gods exist, but that they are merely a group of ultra-powerful interlopers who have usurped a power and status they do not deserve. The Necro could desire to undo them, overthrow them.
This is pretty much my character's outlook. She views them as extraplanar beings on par with the Hunger, just with a slightly different approach to their pillaging of the plane of abiding.
While the Philosophy of the Knife itself doesn't appear exactly purposefully antagonistic toward the Immortals, it certainly does seem to indicate a lack of belief in them as having insurmountable power. That and the fact that the Immortals certainly ARE antagonistic toward all necromancers regardless of any attitude or belief system the necromancer might have, leads me to think that this overall outlook wouldn't necessarily be rare.
This is pretty much my character's outlook. She views them as extraplanar beings on par with the Hunger, just with a slightly different approach to their pillaging of the plane of abiding.
While the Philosophy of the Knife itself doesn't appear exactly purposefully antagonistic toward the Immortals, it certainly does seem to indicate a lack of belief in them as having insurmountable power. That and the fact that the Immortals certainly ARE antagonistic toward all necromancers regardless of any attitude or belief system the necromancer might have, leads me to think that this overall outlook wouldn't necessarily be rare.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 04:33 PM CDT
Bear in mind that when we arrive at statements like "the gods aren't Gods" it should give us a giant red flag that we're not fully seperating our characters in this fictional universe from our own belief systems and culture as players.
I mean, sure, I'll lay this out flatly: by all the definitions of godhood that exist in the DragonRealms universe, the Immortals are gods. In a lot of ways, they define those definitions. They are immortal, incredibly powerful extraplanar creatures that are born from and primally connected to what the Old Man and Xerasyth have referred to as "the Divine," the source of creative power in the universe.
The argument that "they are not gods" only really comes into play from a starkly Western standpoint. No, they certainly are not all-powerful, all-wise, or flawless. In terms of scope and conception, they follow much more the Greek approach.
But, as far as any character in DragonRealms is concerned, they are "gods." A man sitting in the Crossing has no better measure of godness.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I mean, sure, I'll lay this out flatly: by all the definitions of godhood that exist in the DragonRealms universe, the Immortals are gods. In a lot of ways, they define those definitions. They are immortal, incredibly powerful extraplanar creatures that are born from and primally connected to what the Old Man and Xerasyth have referred to as "the Divine," the source of creative power in the universe.
The argument that "they are not gods" only really comes into play from a starkly Western standpoint. No, they certainly are not all-powerful, all-wise, or flawless. In terms of scope and conception, they follow much more the Greek approach.
But, as far as any character in DragonRealms is concerned, they are "gods." A man sitting in the Crossing has no better measure of godness.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
CRAVYD
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 04:41 PM CDT
>>But, as far as any character in DragonRealms is concerned, they are "gods." A man sitting in the Crossing has no better measure of godness.
Are the gods infallible? No. But are they gods? Yes.
Just because they're gods, doesn't mean my character has to like them. I guess that's what makes him evil...
Are the gods infallible? No. But are they gods? Yes.
Just because they're gods, doesn't mean my character has to like them. I guess that's what makes him evil...
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 04:53 PM CDT
>>But, as far as any character in DragonRealms is concerned, they are "gods." A man sitting in the Crossing has no better measure of godness.
Thankfully Philosophers are much better than those crazy average men? Heh.
I do get what you mean about the definition of gods, though. I'm sure that some fanatics might see their select-Immortal as being unquestionable perfection, but others might see that god as less rose-colored at times.
But, then again, the Olympians gave a rather compelling argument as to why the Titans weren't really the ones in charge/true gods. I think the Philosophers in DR are trying to do that, as well.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
Thankfully Philosophers are much better than those crazy average men? Heh.
I do get what you mean about the definition of gods, though. I'm sure that some fanatics might see their select-Immortal as being unquestionable perfection, but others might see that god as less rose-colored at times.
But, then again, the Olympians gave a rather compelling argument as to why the Titans weren't really the ones in charge/true gods. I think the Philosophers in DR are trying to do that, as well.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 05:25 PM CDT
>>Just because they're gods, doesn't mean my character has to like them. I guess that's what makes him evil...
That doesn't make you evil at all. Every God has a negative aspect; you'd have to be an idiot to not hate at least some of them. As Armifer said, it's a non-Western perspective of divinity. The Gods are Gods, but they aren't omniscient all powerful or singular. They're fickle, flawed, and petty. Hating them, or parts of them, is par for the course; we're supposed to laugh at the exploits of Zeus as he runs around sleeping with everything he can, and we're supposed to smirk at the lunacy of Dionysis as he encourages drunken absurdity. What makes Necromancers evil isn't that we hate the Gods, but that we aspire to or beyond them.
>>But, then again, the Olympians gave a rather compelling argument as to why the Titans weren't really the ones in charge/true gods. I think the Philosophers in DR are trying to do that, as well.
I think that's a good analogy, except that the new pantheon is intrinsically understood to be flawed beyond measure.
That doesn't make you evil at all. Every God has a negative aspect; you'd have to be an idiot to not hate at least some of them. As Armifer said, it's a non-Western perspective of divinity. The Gods are Gods, but they aren't omniscient all powerful or singular. They're fickle, flawed, and petty. Hating them, or parts of them, is par for the course; we're supposed to laugh at the exploits of Zeus as he runs around sleeping with everything he can, and we're supposed to smirk at the lunacy of Dionysis as he encourages drunken absurdity. What makes Necromancers evil isn't that we hate the Gods, but that we aspire to or beyond them.
>>But, then again, the Olympians gave a rather compelling argument as to why the Titans weren't really the ones in charge/true gods. I think the Philosophers in DR are trying to do that, as well.
I think that's a good analogy, except that the new pantheon is intrinsically understood to be flawed beyond measure.
MELLIONM6
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 06:05 PM CDT
To say "the gods aren't Gods" makes perfect sense for the purposes of chatter on the forums, as most of us DO have that western tradition to use as a definition of g(G)od(s). I am drawn to the belief that this can play into our character's RP as well, should we choose to use it. The fact that our characters don't have to same words to use (that they would call the immortals gods for lack of other definitions) doesn't mean that the general concepts behind those words can't be equally applied.
On the forums, it may be easier to say "The gods are really nothing more than a specific subset of fancy demons." This makes the point from the player's perspective. IG, however, we'd have to consider the fiction's definition of demon and gods (and, maybe concepts depending on the discussion, as they may also be something similar to the demons of western fiction).
To carry this discussion IG, we'd have to put it in words the character would understand, "The gods are no more worthy of our devotion than the Hunger, and are equally worthy of our resistance. While their methods are different, ultimately, they both view us merely as toys to play with, to control, and a labor force to work towards the realization of their arbitrary whims."
On the forums, it may be easier to say "The gods are really nothing more than a specific subset of fancy demons." This makes the point from the player's perspective. IG, however, we'd have to consider the fiction's definition of demon and gods (and, maybe concepts depending on the discussion, as they may also be something similar to the demons of western fiction).
To carry this discussion IG, we'd have to put it in words the character would understand, "The gods are no more worthy of our devotion than the Hunger, and are equally worthy of our resistance. While their methods are different, ultimately, they both view us merely as toys to play with, to control, and a labor force to work towards the realization of their arbitrary whims."
DARTHIEL
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 07:53 PM CDT
>Bear in mind that when we arrive at statements like "the gods aren't Gods" it should give us a giant red flag that we're not fully seperating our characters in this fictional universe from our own belief systems and culture as players.
> I mean, sure, I'll lay this out flatly: by all the definitions of godhood that exist in the DragonRealms universe, the Immortals are gods. In a lot of ways, they define those definitions. They are immortal, incredibly powerful extraplanar creatures that are born from and primally connected to what the Old Man and Xerasyth have referred to as "the Divine," the source of creative power in the universe.
> The argument that "they are not gods" only really comes into play from a starkly Western standpoint. No, they certainly are not all-powerful, all-wise, or flawless. In terms of scope and conception, they follow much more the Greek approach.
> But, as far as any character in DragonRealms is concerned, they are "gods." A man sitting in the Crossing has no better measure of godness.
> -Armifer
But, though the gods can cut off our characters' source of 'favors', they cannot cut them off from their source of 'mana energy'. Our characters notice this, perhaps have some resentment against this pantheon, are gutsy and willing to take big risks (or perhaps not so big, given that death is inevitable even with favors), see lichdom or the Great Work as a potential 'end around', and forgo acknowledging these gods whatsoever... the situation begs the question...
What is their worldview then? Is there an alternative spirituality? Or are they 'aspiritual'? Can they 'worship' their perceived source of this mana energy? What are the possibilities within each possibility? Or are they scientists who merely 'study' and don't believe their is a self-aware power that is the source of mana energy or anything else for that matter? Or are they perhaps a combination of AD&D Monks and Sith adherents? (I find either possibility incredibly interesting, btw, or maybe a combination of both.)
Oh, and given my character can put 2 and 2 and 2 together, his use of the term 'god' in regard to the pantheon would seem quaint and even sarcastic to him.
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
> I mean, sure, I'll lay this out flatly: by all the definitions of godhood that exist in the DragonRealms universe, the Immortals are gods. In a lot of ways, they define those definitions. They are immortal, incredibly powerful extraplanar creatures that are born from and primally connected to what the Old Man and Xerasyth have referred to as "the Divine," the source of creative power in the universe.
> The argument that "they are not gods" only really comes into play from a starkly Western standpoint. No, they certainly are not all-powerful, all-wise, or flawless. In terms of scope and conception, they follow much more the Greek approach.
> But, as far as any character in DragonRealms is concerned, they are "gods." A man sitting in the Crossing has no better measure of godness.
> -Armifer
But, though the gods can cut off our characters' source of 'favors', they cannot cut them off from their source of 'mana energy'. Our characters notice this, perhaps have some resentment against this pantheon, are gutsy and willing to take big risks (or perhaps not so big, given that death is inevitable even with favors), see lichdom or the Great Work as a potential 'end around', and forgo acknowledging these gods whatsoever... the situation begs the question...
What is their worldview then? Is there an alternative spirituality? Or are they 'aspiritual'? Can they 'worship' their perceived source of this mana energy? What are the possibilities within each possibility? Or are they scientists who merely 'study' and don't believe their is a self-aware power that is the source of mana energy or anything else for that matter? Or are they perhaps a combination of AD&D Monks and Sith adherents? (I find either possibility incredibly interesting, btw, or maybe a combination of both.)
Oh, and given my character can put 2 and 2 and 2 together, his use of the term 'god' in regard to the pantheon would seem quaint and even sarcastic to him.
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
DARTHIEL
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 08:27 PM CDT
>They are immortal, incredibly powerful extraplanar creatures that are born from and primally connected to what the Old Man and Xerasyth have referred to as "the Divine," the source of creative power in the universe.
Rereading Armifer's post, this sentence stuck out to me. (I will have to read up on these characters.)
The thought occurred to me: what if my Necro sees the gods something like Hindu deities?: self-aware primordial echoes, extensions or incarnations of a greater Being in a fractal-like reality. Could they not, in some twisted way, be deferential to the gods, but without being willing to listen to those gods' admonitions about playing with the arcane? Could they be like 'bad kids' who think that negative attention is better than no attention at all? Or that the gods actually want mortals to play with sorcery and are just testing their inner fortitude to 'pick out the courageous ones'? Etc....
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
Rereading Armifer's post, this sentence stuck out to me. (I will have to read up on these characters.)
The thought occurred to me: what if my Necro sees the gods something like Hindu deities?: self-aware primordial echoes, extensions or incarnations of a greater Being in a fractal-like reality. Could they not, in some twisted way, be deferential to the gods, but without being willing to listen to those gods' admonitions about playing with the arcane? Could they be like 'bad kids' who think that negative attention is better than no attention at all? Or that the gods actually want mortals to play with sorcery and are just testing their inner fortitude to 'pick out the courageous ones'? Etc....
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
DR-RAESH
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 08:54 PM CDT
>>Could they be like 'bad kids' who think that negative attention is better than no attention at all?
Might be worth rereading the message you get when you become Forsaken.
Just sayin'.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Might be worth rereading the message you get when you become Forsaken.
Just sayin'.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DARTHIEL
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 09:16 PM CDT
>Might be worth rereading the message you get when you become Forsaken.
I'm sure this statement was intended to be cryptic. :)
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
I'm sure this statement was intended to be cryptic. :)
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 09:23 PM CDT
>>I'm sure this statement was intended to be cryptic. :)
Necros get extra attention from brand new friends.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
Necros get extra attention from brand new friends.
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
DRTYPRIOR
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 09:25 PM CDT
He's saying there's only so much of being a 'bad kid' until you're forsaken by your Immortals. There's no working with them for attention once they've forsaken you.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 09:30 PM CDT
The gods are not the only extraplanar creatures of incredible power in the universe.
Moon Mages sometimes deal with entities where the term "chthonic god" would not be inappropriate descriptively, even though in the context of DragonRealms they are not gods in the real sense.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Moon Mages sometimes deal with entities where the term "chthonic god" would not be inappropriate descriptively, even though in the context of DragonRealms they are not gods in the real sense.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DARTHIEL
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 10:00 PM CDT
>The gods are not the only extraplanar creatures of incredible power in the universe.
> Moon Mages sometimes deal with entities where the term "chthonic god" would not be inappropriate descriptively, even though in the context of DragonRealms they are not gods in the real sense.
At first I was like, 'We can worship Cthulhu in DR? AWESOME!' But then I was like, 'Oh yeah, Lovecraft got that name from the Greek class of entities'. Still, I am not taking 'insane cultist' off the RP table just yet!
Seriously, what are our options for worshipping one of these other entities? Even considering himself a 'cleric' for that entity?
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
> Moon Mages sometimes deal with entities where the term "chthonic god" would not be inappropriate descriptively, even though in the context of DragonRealms they are not gods in the real sense.
At first I was like, 'We can worship Cthulhu in DR? AWESOME!' But then I was like, 'Oh yeah, Lovecraft got that name from the Greek class of entities'. Still, I am not taking 'insane cultist' off the RP table just yet!
Seriously, what are our options for worshipping one of these other entities? Even considering himself a 'cleric' for that entity?
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
GRANTJ47
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 10:04 PM CDT
And beyond all this you have to wonder about the World Dragon and if it is real or just a myth. Was the only reason our plane was called into exsistance was because it wanted to sleep?
Abison
Abison
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 11:02 PM CDT
<<The Necro could desire to undo them, overthrow them. Or the Necro simply might want to worship the 'True Creator' power, or merely practice an ancient form of spirituality.>>
it depends on what "brand" of necromancer. the "old" necromancers may have aspired to worship the world dragon <see the DPs under D'zree>, or given themselves over to the demonic <maelshyve>.
The philosophers basically seek not to make war on the gods, but to transcend themselves beyond them. Which, of course, the gods violently object to. They do not share their power.
As for individual necromancers, much depends on their own backstory. One played from the standpoint of "pre-redemption" might even regret their "sins", and seek to make amends with a diety they hope can somehow forgive them. One who is perverse might embrace the struggle with the divine, and even practice spiritual necromancy. <the historical necromancers such as Sorrow, or Emuin - who started out as a cleric - etc>. one philosopher might just "ignore" the deities <see markat's answer when he is asked about the immortals>.
You can't really portray an honest-to-goodness atheist. Not after becoming forsaken at least. You KNOW there's something more powerful than you in the universe. The western concept of omniscience and omnipotence is not one of the Elanthean gods. They are more akin to the Egyptian, Greek or Roman Deities.
I am wondering however, how the Heralds - those reputed to be beyond the scope of the gods - are regarded by the philosophers. Or are they just thought of like the gods, except more powerful?
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
it depends on what "brand" of necromancer. the "old" necromancers may have aspired to worship the world dragon <see the DPs under D'zree>, or given themselves over to the demonic <maelshyve>.
The philosophers basically seek not to make war on the gods, but to transcend themselves beyond them. Which, of course, the gods violently object to. They do not share their power.
As for individual necromancers, much depends on their own backstory. One played from the standpoint of "pre-redemption" might even regret their "sins", and seek to make amends with a diety they hope can somehow forgive them. One who is perverse might embrace the struggle with the divine, and even practice spiritual necromancy. <the historical necromancers such as Sorrow, or Emuin - who started out as a cleric - etc>. one philosopher might just "ignore" the deities <see markat's answer when he is asked about the immortals>.
You can't really portray an honest-to-goodness atheist. Not after becoming forsaken at least. You KNOW there's something more powerful than you in the universe. The western concept of omniscience and omnipotence is not one of the Elanthean gods. They are more akin to the Egyptian, Greek or Roman Deities.
I am wondering however, how the Heralds - those reputed to be beyond the scope of the gods - are regarded by the philosophers. Or are they just thought of like the gods, except more powerful?
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/13/2011 11:10 PM CDT
>>Seriously, what are our options for worshipping one of these other entities? Even considering himself a 'cleric' for that entity?
They're not the gods and do not have that kind of relationship with Elanthia. Your character can go tell people you worship Pelag ai Aldam all you want, and there doesn't need to be any new mechanical updates to correctly model the outcome.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
They're not the gods and do not have that kind of relationship with Elanthia. Your character can go tell people you worship Pelag ai Aldam all you want, and there doesn't need to be any new mechanical updates to correctly model the outcome.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 03:44 AM CDT
I could be wrong but I can't see the possibility of an IC being an atheist in DR. It just doesn't fit the setting for gameplay. A Necro is just a direct challenge to in game belief systems . Or I could be wrong .
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 04:09 AM CDT
i don't know about humans and their relationship with truffenyi, but for my character, a s'kra mur, it is Extremely difficult for her to turn her back on hav'roth <as the "creator" of the s'kra mur>, although she has been long since been forsaken. It is easier for her to "reject" idon <the diety that "did her in" when she Became forsaken - but her the bond of her cultures gods are not easily severed - even though They ignore her. And like the previous poster suggested, she tried many things after being forsaken to get the gods to "listen" <even resorting to "attempting" the "clerical" raise of a dryad ritual - of course - backwards, in a necrotic way - but still in her way of thinking at the time, "bad" things from the gods were better than them completely ignoring you. Alas, it didn't work.
if she could just find the old man....
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
if she could just find the old man....
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 04:39 AM CDT
just to reinterate the viewpoint of the philosophers, its pretty much summed up in the words of Markat:
ask mark about immortal
Markat says, "There's not much to say. The gods exist; atheism is the pastime of naive scholars who are not personally damned by the will of the Immortals. We ascribe to them most of the physical, magical and spiritual qualities that the priests do, but we strongly reject the notion of divine right. The priests' own theology depict the Immortals as flawed, temperamental creatures as given to petty acts of violence as they are transcendent ideals. The Immortals have no right to dictate the behavior or moral compass of the thinking species, and, frankly, were it not for them actively interfering with us, they would be eminently ignorable."
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
ask mark about immortal
Markat says, "There's not much to say. The gods exist; atheism is the pastime of naive scholars who are not personally damned by the will of the Immortals. We ascribe to them most of the physical, magical and spiritual qualities that the priests do, but we strongly reject the notion of divine right. The priests' own theology depict the Immortals as flawed, temperamental creatures as given to petty acts of violence as they are transcendent ideals. The Immortals have no right to dictate the behavior or moral compass of the thinking species, and, frankly, were it not for them actively interfering with us, they would be eminently ignorable."
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
DARTHIEL
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 07:22 AM CDT
>They're not the gods and do not have that kind of relationship with Elanthia. Your character can go tell people you worship Pelag ai Aldam all you want, and there doesn't need to be any new mechanical updates to correctly model the outcome.
Okay, so we would merely be choosing a 'delusional insanity RP' for our characters. Not that I would really expect DR GMs to code some IG messages telepathically sent from some extraplanar squid-faced horror. Still, was a fun idea for a moment!
After all this, I'm coming to the conclusion that Necros' relationship with gods and nature is estranged (hence, Forsaken?), and that the 'mad scientist' type is the literary role that describes us the closest. Unless I am missing something. Which is probably true, since I've not gotten CFB and all that yet. (I'm getting there quickly, though!)
When the new skills come out, I am sure we will be able to better pursue that line of character development? I want to build things. Unliving things. :)
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
Okay, so we would merely be choosing a 'delusional insanity RP' for our characters. Not that I would really expect DR GMs to code some IG messages telepathically sent from some extraplanar squid-faced horror. Still, was a fun idea for a moment!
After all this, I'm coming to the conclusion that Necros' relationship with gods and nature is estranged (hence, Forsaken?), and that the 'mad scientist' type is the literary role that describes us the closest. Unless I am missing something. Which is probably true, since I've not gotten CFB and all that yet. (I'm getting there quickly, though!)
When the new skills come out, I am sure we will be able to better pursue that line of character development? I want to build things. Unliving things. :)
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 07:41 AM CDT
are we allowed to post the messaging we get when we become forsaken here? or is that considered taboo?
the first one <from casting cfb> is sort of like a "parental i'm disappointed in you" sort of thing.
the second one is the smackdown.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
the first one <from casting cfb> is sort of like a "parental i'm disappointed in you" sort of thing.
the second one is the smackdown.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
PBOMBARD
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 08:40 AM CDT
Of course there are those of us who have characters who remember reading about the "All God" before the information was purged from the library by the temple.
There's certainly some room for interpretation that the immortals aren't the be-all and end-all of power in Elanthia.
I still have the original book at home. I'll see if I can find it later.
-pete
There's certainly some room for interpretation that the immortals aren't the be-all and end-all of power in Elanthia.
I still have the original book at home. I'll see if I can find it later.
-pete
CRAVYD
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 08:43 AM CDT
yeah, pretty sure it will get *post hidden*
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 08:50 AM CDT
they haven't purged it from my spellbook<my cleric-prime> has it:
>read my spell
The graceful black calligraphy on the coarse-grained grey parchment page of your spellbook reads:
The All Gods
It is believed by some priests that all the gods are but one face
of a greater god. This greater god is worshiped by some priests
who feel choosing sides is unwise or who feel that worship of one
god is better for their personal faith. A few religions have
risen up around the belief in the One God, and it is very popular
in some regions of Elanthia.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
>read my spell
The graceful black calligraphy on the coarse-grained grey parchment page of your spellbook reads:
The All Gods
It is believed by some priests that all the gods are but one face
of a greater god. This greater god is worshiped by some priests
who feel choosing sides is unwise or who feel that worship of one
god is better for their personal faith. A few religions have
risen up around the belief in the One God, and it is very popular
in some regions of Elanthia.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
PBOMBARD
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 09:18 AM CDT
Yeah, that was it.
One of my characters in Prime submitted a book to the library that had some minor discussion of the One God.
The book was not accepted, but he was keenly aware of the change in the books when it happened due to his familiarity with the lore.
-pete
One of my characters in Prime submitted a book to the library that had some minor discussion of the One God.
The book was not accepted, but he was keenly aware of the change in the books when it happened due to his familiarity with the lore.
-pete
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 09:34 AM CDT
this page still appears in the copy of the Immortals in the clerics guild. just checked.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
DARTHIEL
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 09:43 AM CDT
I'm thinking my previous post was not quite right either. At this point I will wait until forsaken, then revisit the topic if I am still unclear. I am not even 100% clear on what I'm unclear on, really. Something about how necros as a whole (Philosophers in particular) see the powers greater than themselves...
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 09:49 AM CDT
>>I am not even 100% clear on what I'm unclear on, really. Something about how necros as a whole (Philosophers in particular) see the powers greater than themselves...
Necromancers would have a pretty hard time saying they don't believe in the Immortals because it would be similar to people who get hit by trucks saying they don't believe in trucks.
Someone who never even saw a truck in their life could argue that there are no such thing as trucks, but Necromancers literally have the tire tracks on their backs proving that trucks exist, so they would be really hard-pressed to argue that trucks are a false creation made by liars who etc etc etc.
(That said, maybe even though they did see and experience the power of trucks in a very brutal way, what they really saw/experienced was a psychotic break due to the Arcane brain-tweaking they experience when joining the guild, wheeee!)
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
Necromancers would have a pretty hard time saying they don't believe in the Immortals because it would be similar to people who get hit by trucks saying they don't believe in trucks.
Someone who never even saw a truck in their life could argue that there are no such thing as trucks, but Necromancers literally have the tire tracks on their backs proving that trucks exist, so they would be really hard-pressed to argue that trucks are a false creation made by liars who etc etc etc.
(That said, maybe even though they did see and experience the power of trucks in a very brutal way, what they really saw/experienced was a psychotic break due to the Arcane brain-tweaking they experience when joining the guild, wheeee!)
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
DARTHIEL
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 10:07 AM CDT
Guys! I figured it all out! There's some shady actor pulling the strings, and Book knows who it is! This is all a Dan Brown or Robert Anton Wilson novel. He will tell us who we're really working for when we get to circle XY(Z?).
Wait, did you hear that? Logging off before they backtrace my IP. Reformatting my hard drive. BRB! (PS I was never here!)
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
Wait, did you hear that? Logging off before they backtrace my IP. Reformatting my hard drive. BRB! (PS I was never here!)
(Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 10:20 AM CDT
You pretty much know that the immortals exist once you're forsaken if you depart "normally" to a temple rather than doing the special necro departs.
It was quite "soul-shocking". It was during the Lyras event, so the messaging may or may not have changed, I haven't departed to a temple since that time.
The first part is like everyone else...
>depart
You suddenly find yourself floating upward, the light dimming slowly around you. Eventually everything vanishes as the distance increases and you are enveloped by a sparkling panorama of brilliantly lit stars.
[The Starry Road]
You find yourself walking along a road like one you have never seen before. Spread out before you is a stream of light, paved with stars and bounded by every constellation and planet you had ever seen while a mortal, only now more vibrant and somehow alive. Also in the room: The Starry Host.
Obvious exits:North.
You walk forward, putting one foot in front of the other wandering closer to something which never seems nearer. After what seems like an eternity, you reach a gate.
<HERE is where it gets creepy for a forsaken Necro>
Before you stands a stoney-faced being who gives you a distainful look, as though you are a creature of the basest kind. When he finally speaks, the surrounding constellations brighten and darken alternately in accord with his unearthly voice. "Your place is the Void, decayed soul."
He reachs over to you and grips your incorporeal form in a giant hand of silver and black.
The gate beyond begins to open at his command, but suddenly a hundred hooked claws take hold of your spirit, snatching you away from the Starry Host.
You feel yourself dragged upwards, the constellations light plunging into blackness around you. A wracking sensation fills your soul before everything you can see of the starry realm disappears around you. The blackness is pervasive, and you feel malicious sensations of hunger and longing. Final oblivion seems imminent, as your spirit and self threaten to merge with the starving entity beyond.
A sensation of palpable relief fills you for the briefest moment as you feel yourself crushed back down into the realm of the mundane by some sudden protective force, your work on Elanthean soil not yet finished.
A loud roaring and a sense of heat on the skin surrounds you and a great pressure - as if the earth were caving in around you- presses against your body. You struggle againsta a great weight, and finally break forward to find yourself
{Kilth Aldiyaus, Prayer Branch]
I wrote it all down, because it creeped me out at the time. :-)
now, I don't exactly know what my character believes about the Starry Road, but in her experience, the void is a very, very, real place. Which scared her to the depths of her being. Now, whether the "starry host" is a god himself, or a facet of Urrem'tier - she's not exactly sure, except for she doesn't want to go there again.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
It was quite "soul-shocking". It was during the Lyras event, so the messaging may or may not have changed, I haven't departed to a temple since that time.
The first part is like everyone else...
>depart
You suddenly find yourself floating upward, the light dimming slowly around you. Eventually everything vanishes as the distance increases and you are enveloped by a sparkling panorama of brilliantly lit stars.
[The Starry Road]
You find yourself walking along a road like one you have never seen before. Spread out before you is a stream of light, paved with stars and bounded by every constellation and planet you had ever seen while a mortal, only now more vibrant and somehow alive. Also in the room: The Starry Host.
Obvious exits:North.
You walk forward, putting one foot in front of the other wandering closer to something which never seems nearer. After what seems like an eternity, you reach a gate.
<HERE is where it gets creepy for a forsaken Necro>
Before you stands a stoney-faced being who gives you a distainful look, as though you are a creature of the basest kind. When he finally speaks, the surrounding constellations brighten and darken alternately in accord with his unearthly voice. "Your place is the Void, decayed soul."
He reachs over to you and grips your incorporeal form in a giant hand of silver and black.
The gate beyond begins to open at his command, but suddenly a hundred hooked claws take hold of your spirit, snatching you away from the Starry Host.
You feel yourself dragged upwards, the constellations light plunging into blackness around you. A wracking sensation fills your soul before everything you can see of the starry realm disappears around you. The blackness is pervasive, and you feel malicious sensations of hunger and longing. Final oblivion seems imminent, as your spirit and self threaten to merge with the starving entity beyond.
A sensation of palpable relief fills you for the briefest moment as you feel yourself crushed back down into the realm of the mundane by some sudden protective force, your work on Elanthean soil not yet finished.
A loud roaring and a sense of heat on the skin surrounds you and a great pressure - as if the earth were caving in around you- presses against your body. You struggle againsta a great weight, and finally break forward to find yourself
{Kilth Aldiyaus, Prayer Branch]
I wrote it all down, because it creeped me out at the time. :-)
now, I don't exactly know what my character believes about the Starry Road, but in her experience, the void is a very, very, real place. Which scared her to the depths of her being. Now, whether the "starry host" is a god himself, or a facet of Urrem'tier - she's not exactly sure, except for she doesn't want to go there again.
You've seen life through distorted eyes;You know you had to learn;The execution of your mind;You really had to turn;,the book is read,The end begins to show,The truth is out, the lies are old, But you don't want to know - Black Sabbath
CRAVYD
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 01:09 PM CDT
Don't forget that there are also demons within the realms. Another thing to remember, is your necro has really joined a group that call themselves the Philosopher's of the Knife. If you're having trouble deciding on your characters beliefs, have a look at those of the group you've joined.
Some good places to do some necromancer theology research:
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Death_and_the_Soul_-_5/11/2009_-_1:39:41
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Philosophers_of_the_Knife
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Kigot
Some good places to do some necromancer theology research:
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Death_and_the_Soul_-_5/11/2009_-_1:39:41
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Philosophers_of_the_Knife
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Kigot
DARTHIEL
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 02:42 PM CDT
Great links, thanks! I'd not seen the first and third before. This part stood out to me:
>Finally, there is an antinomian magic called the Profane Aegis. Demons exist in the depths beyond the planar void and some of them have enough power to extend influence into the Plane of Abiding. In the right times and with the right rituals, they can act as localized "deities" for the purpose of claiming souls. For this reason, adventurers are often advised to fight to the death or even commit suicide rather than be captured by demon worshipers. If you're ritually sacrificed on a Maelshyvean altar, you might not see the Immortals on the other end.
>The Profane Aegis is an artificial condition and can be "dismantled" with time and purification rites. Demon worshipers are in the same boat as adventurers when it comes to capture. Further, demons are regarded as more temperamental and malicious than even the dark aspects. Few people enjoy having their soul in the grasp of a creature that wants to consume all life, or who might rescind its favor just because it enjoys their momentary panic more than their continued existence.
>No right-thinking individual does this to himself, leaving the average user of the Profane Aegis either insane or in intense denial. In particular, some Necromancers claim to practice a godless alchemy which produces the Profane Aegis without demonic aid, but priests have found no evidence to back up the claim. Surely, with the coming of Lyras, we have finally abandoned the pretense that Necromancers are anything more than the thralls of evil.
(emphasis mine)
_______________________________________________
Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.
>Finally, there is an antinomian magic called the Profane Aegis. Demons exist in the depths beyond the planar void and some of them have enough power to extend influence into the Plane of Abiding. In the right times and with the right rituals, they can act as localized "deities" for the purpose of claiming souls. For this reason, adventurers are often advised to fight to the death or even commit suicide rather than be captured by demon worshipers. If you're ritually sacrificed on a Maelshyvean altar, you might not see the Immortals on the other end.
>The Profane Aegis is an artificial condition and can be "dismantled" with time and purification rites. Demon worshipers are in the same boat as adventurers when it comes to capture. Further, demons are regarded as more temperamental and malicious than even the dark aspects. Few people enjoy having their soul in the grasp of a creature that wants to consume all life, or who might rescind its favor just because it enjoys their momentary panic more than their continued existence.
>No right-thinking individual does this to himself, leaving the average user of the Profane Aegis either insane or in intense denial. In particular, some Necromancers claim to practice a godless alchemy which produces the Profane Aegis without demonic aid, but priests have found no evidence to back up the claim. Surely, with the coming of Lyras, we have finally abandoned the pretense that Necromancers are anything more than the thralls of evil.
(emphasis mine)
_______________________________________________
Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 03:12 PM CDT
>>your necro has really joined a group that call themselves the Philosopher's of the Knife
In terms of the specific guildhall we currently can join (I think).
Not entirely sure if all guilds will be comprised of Philosophers, though. I can't imagine that the Perverse guild will specifically be Philosophers (maybe ex-philosophers?).
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
In terms of the specific guildhall we currently can join (I think).
Not entirely sure if all guilds will be comprised of Philosophers, though. I can't imagine that the Perverse guild will specifically be Philosophers (maybe ex-philosophers?).
"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER
ALGOTHI
Re: Ideology thread relocated
04/14/2011 03:15 PM CDT
>>No right-thinking individual does this to himself, leaving the average user of the Profane Aegis either insane or in intense denial. In particular, some Necromancers claim to practice a godless alchemy which produces the Profane Aegis without demonic aid, but priests have found no evidence to back up the claim. Surely, with the coming of Lyras, we have finally abandoned the pretense that Necromancers are anything more than the thralls of evil.
I take "Godless Alchemy" to mean the Alchemy of the Flesh (PC Necromancy) in this instance, since it is us that are somehow protected by the Profane Aegis without demonic aid.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I take "Godless Alchemy" to mean the Alchemy of the Flesh (PC Necromancy) in this instance, since it is us that are somehow protected by the Profane Aegis without demonic aid.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
