I took 'godless alchemy' to mean sorcery. A profane mixture of energies.


_______________________________________________
Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)

>>I think the person who wrote this has no idea the what the word alchemy means. He would of been more correct to say ....godless sorcery. Then I think that would of fit better. Just a thought.

Actually, that was an Armifer post. : )

But on a side note, I love the idea that demons are also a very real possibility for interaction. The philosophy, walking that "knife's edge", kinda makes me think my character really tries to avoid the immortals and demons both, as if he's searching for a third, more mundane path. He pushes towards the Great Work, which I would think is really just the triumph of man over both sides of the supernatural spectrum. I don't pretend to think of another source of creation, as it were. I tend to leave the discussion of gods and demons to clerics, and continue about my own business in finding a cure for death that is man-made (or gnome-made, in his case.)

Im thinking that we can not and are simply foolish to deny the existence of the gods. And will one day find out that the very same demon or similar to the demon that came out during the Lryas insidence. Is behind this entire endevor. One has to get to a higher level of NO RETURN before one knows the name of this said demon. Because somehow and for some reasons the gods dont end this or our existance right away. Something or someone is holding the gods back, keeping them from simply ending the great work. It is either by fear the gods dont end it, or they made some kind of deal with this demonic force to prove some phyilosophical view or point that only immortals could conjur up. And we as the philosphers of the knife are their pawns ...why else would the gods not simply end this.

Just a thought chuckwiz

>> ...why else would the gods not simply end this.

Maybe you did indeed seriously piss off the immortals, and they decided that the best punishment was to not allow you to escape the mortal consequences of your actions through such an easy avenue like dying.

Advanced Deity Cruelty 304 stuff. You want to play hardball, they might just let you.


Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson

AIM - RykenDR

You see a gigantic granite cliff towering in the pre-dawn gloom. The cliff is nearly sheer, interrupted only by deep gouges and blade-like protrusions. Darkness obscures the base of the cliff, while the first rays of morning shine above its crown. A young Human slowly climbs the face of the cliff, using nothing other than a curved silver knife as an impromptu pick. The young Human pauses for breath within the base of a narrow gouge. He assesses the rest of his climb, only to lock eyes with an elderly Human who now looks down at him from over the ledge. The young Human cups his hands over his mouth and calls out, "Could you help me?" The Old Man says, "Sure." He rubs his mouth, then points at the knife, "You know what they say about a man that only owns a hammer?" A string of Gamgweth profanity echoes back in reply. The Old Man shrugs and walks away.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

Or even more mean-spirited: Maybe they know that the path of the knife won't ever actually work, and are content to punish those who try by allowing them to go on pursuing futility. Not just proving a point, but very parental "you want to try a cigarette? here, have a whole pack... but you gotta finish them all now. Right now."


Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson

AIM - RykenDR

So, every one of us has a different idea about what necros are, our relationship with higher powers, what 'godless' means in regard to necros, what 'godless alchemy' means, what visions mean, etc, etc, ad infinitum... and that's not a bad thing, on the contrary; it's a good thing, but i can't help but think... every time Armifer reads a thread like this... he is Muwhahahahaha-ing at his keyboard in malevolent glee. i feel that Armifer just may be the definition of 'True Evil'. <nod>


_______________________________________________
Hmm, I have to think of a necromancer-y signature to put right here.)

>Eh, I'm like 99.99% sure Armifer and other GM's involved in creating story lines create them in a way that is up for interpretation. That's the entire reason there's a whole folder just for "Necromancer Ideologies" on the forums. It's all up for discussion, there is no "right" answer.

Actually, I'd wager there IS a very specific right answer -- in the game design documents behind Necromancers that players will never see.

Our characters have a very limited window on the world, and one where there are many forces at work influencing what they can and cannot see. All the information that is "right" so far as our characters (and even the gods to some degree) know may be entirely wrong from the omniscient perspective of world design.

-pete

>>Actually, I'd wager there IS a very specific right answer -- in the game design documents behind Necromancers that players will never see.

I really, really loathe authors and artists who create hollow works and excuse themselves by saying that it's all a matter of interpretation. Our arts are, when done properly, expressions of meaning.

So you're correct. We do have a cheat sheet that has "The Old Man is actually X, Transcendence is Y, what happened when Kigot died is Z..." and we work our open-ended, unreliable narrator stuff around the story's facts.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

>>But kudos on the necromancer lore in general. I've put more thought into my Necro than any other character i've ever rolled(a lot) and I think it is because of the way they are set up lore wise. Love it.


Agreed. Making the necromancer guild lore interesting and nuanced rather than traditional and cartoonishly evil is the reason I play one as my main, highest circle character.

Your right, thanks.
chuckwiz

>>So you're correct. We do have a cheat sheet that has "The Old Man is actually X, Transcendence is Y, what happened when Kigot died is Z..." and we work our open-ended, unreliable narrator stuff around the story's facts.

>>You'd LIKE us to believe that, wouldn't you? But you're a puppet master, so the opposite has to be true! But, then, you know we're on to you, so it probably IS true... but you KNEW we'd realize this, so... blah blah, something about a land war in Asia...

>>We're down the rabbit hole, here, people. We can't trust anyone or anything. I personally find it likely we're just the militant arm of the Empaths Guild, but who knows. All we know for sure is paranoid rants are trite literary devices used by lazy, superficial hacks who want to score cheap points by trying to seem profound without putting forth any thought or effort!

>>Wait, I don't even understand what I just wrote. PUPPETMASTER! :shakes his fist at his monitor:

HA! You've been fooled, it is not the opposite OR what was said! The old man is actually Q!

Moving on to another topic now, just for kicks. It was mentioned some time ago that the Great Work is largely another plot line within the story, one with an end. We all seemed to assume that this end would ultimately be failure, however, I contend that it is more likely that the Great Work will eventually be a success.

Some support for this wild conclusion? Sure!
#1) The Great Work (the search for immortality) really couldn't end in failure provided anyone anywhere in the world still wanted it (which is roughly a given). It would simply continue on forever.

#2) Failure at the Great Work, even if only as defined as the Philosopher's Great Work, could only be achieve via the annihilation of the Necromancer's Guild, meaning all the work put into making PC necs would be undone...not going to happen (hopefully).

#3) Probably the most important...roughly 1 IG year passes every 100 RLL days. This equates to 3.5 years per RL year. Due to the length of time the game has been in operation, the GMs had to adjust the lifespans model. As the game approaches 25 years or so, the most empuffed Prydaen is going to start to come to end of his/her lifecycle. While this isn't a huge issue in most players' eyes (I think), for the fiction to be consistent, something will need to extend the lives of the races with less longevity beyond even what the pufftastic empaths have managed. Could this be done other ways? Sure. But why, when you have this wonderful item right in front of you for your use?

>> #2)

Actually, the Philospher's portion of Necromancy could be stomped out because we already know other sects of Necromancy will become open for players in the future. I'm not saying it's likely, I'm just saying it IS possible. I agree with the statement that The Great Work is going to have to come to some sort of head, but that doesn't necessitate a successful conclusion in the eyes of the Necromancers involved.

>>So if the "great work" were somehow to be "destroyed", along with the philosophers guildhall, there would be no new PC necros.

That probably has to do more without making overly redundant guild-joining quests than anything.

---

"We're not "out to get you," we're here to enhance your playing experience with extreme prejudice.," DR-ARMIFER

>>That and necromancers usually don't take kind to those who don't already know the art.

Yeah makes sense.

I'm really curious to see how our GMs write the next guidhall and NPCs. There's a lot of ways you could go with the Perverse. And a lot of ways to explain why they would band together. If I were in charge, I'd probably go with a transhumanist angle or Tzimisce-style imagery. :)

I'm glad the Scientist types were first though! Have you guys ever read The Case of Charles Dexter Ward?

>>Have you guys ever read The Case of Charles Dexter Ward?

That's one of my favorites! I'd suggest any self respecting necromancer put Lovecraft on their reading list. If you have a Kindle, you can get all his stuff for dirt cheap.

Let's get this one back on topic, please. Books (and devices in which to read them) would be more suited down in the Outside Elanthia - Life in the Real World > Tunes, Tomes and Trash folder.

As always if you have any questions or comments, please contact me at MOD-Helje@play.net, Senior Board Monitor Sidatura at DR-Sidatura@play.net, or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl DR-Annwyl@play.net.

Helje
DragonRealms Board Monitor