Previous
I'm moving it here to save a BM some time.
>>So Arcane magic is not evil ?
From an IC perspective (naturally!)... and I'm sure a GM will correct me if I'm wrong...
As far as society is concerned, Arcane magic is a terrible evil thing. It may not always create Social Outrage, but even then it's not really seen as "approved". Blackfire and Teleological magic aren't seen as good things, nor is generalized Arcane stuff like Limb Disruption, Mana Disruption, etc. It's the Ghostbusters equivalent of Crossing the Streams. You're not supposed to do it. It's evil and bad and deadly and wrong. Now, it may or may not be true, in terms of the actual "science" behind it. But, for all intents and purposes, at least society ICly believes that Sorcery is too dangerous to play around with.
As far as the gods are concerned, anything that they don't believe disrupts THEIR balance of things is okay. That's why some kinds of Necromancy (like Blood, Corruption, and Synthetic magics) are [generally] okay in the eyes of the divine, but Animation and Transcendental magic isn't okay. The fact that all those types of energy mixes are called Necromancy is more our own IC decision than an actual decision rooted in the actual "science" behind the spells.
>>Secondly , Necromantic magic , which I didn't know to be so separated , is an entirely different animal ? Just a horrible misuse of Arcane magic?
It may be better to stop viewing Necromantic magic as Necromantic Magic and instead consider the mana types that are mixed. Any mix is Arcane.
All mixes are "bad". Elemental/Lunar, Holy/Lunar, whatever. All bad things.
Some mixes are "worse" and people call those Necromantic. These mixes have a base of Life and are mixed with Lunar, Elemental, or both.
Of those "worse" ones, there are even "worse worse" ones that Divinity itself loathe. Those mixes still have a base of Life, but their application is what really makes the gods mad. Use Life and Elemental magic to create a ball of acid to throw at people? Whatever, Divinity doesn't care. Use Life and Elemental to create a living breathing ball of acid that either directly is or closely emulates a living being and THEN the gods get mad.
And then there's Life + Holy, which is supposed to be outright impossible so I'm sure if anything like that was ever brought into reality, beings that are even greater than the gods themselves may get upset at that.
TEVESHSZAT
COMEAUN
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/11/2010 06:56 PM CDT
You're mixing up magics. Arcane is just magical, mixed mana is sorcery.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/11/2010 07:00 PM CDT
Still dragging stuff into here...
>>We <Necros> perceive Necromantic and not our primary skill set , Arcane . Our magic is drawn of Lunar , Life and Elemental. The mixing of mana is Arcane . So if only our Use of the arcane makes necromantic energy . what's this necromantic energy we keep perceiving ?
AFAIK, it's still Arcane energy, but a very specialized form of arcane that is explicitly looking at just a mix of Life with Lunar and Elemental, even though Philosophers never explicitly use all three at once (although they always use Life).
The fact that it's called Necromantic energy is more a result of the fact that your character is told the energy you're surveying is called Necromantic as opposed to a generalized Arcane. It's like if Rangers were trained in Life Magic but, in their training, they were told that they see "Tree Energy". Just because the Rangers ICly see and call it Tree Energy doesn't mean they're using Tree Magic. It's still Life Magic.
It's like how Bards hear energy as opposed to seeing it. It's not that they're perceiving a totally different type of Elemental energy than War Mages, but they're just trained to recognize it by sound instead of sight. At the same time, Rangers see Life energy as blue/white while Empaths see it as blue/green. They see it differently, and could theoretically call it something else based on that (Rangers with their "Tree Energy" and Empaths with their "Heart Power" or whatever), but in the end they're still creating Life magic.
Philosophers still create Arcane magic, but they're trained in a very specific subset that revolves around Life energy mixing with Lunar and/or Elemental.
>>We <Necros> perceive Necromantic and not our primary skill set , Arcane . Our magic is drawn of Lunar , Life and Elemental. The mixing of mana is Arcane . So if only our Use of the arcane makes necromantic energy . what's this necromantic energy we keep perceiving ?
AFAIK, it's still Arcane energy, but a very specialized form of arcane that is explicitly looking at just a mix of Life with Lunar and Elemental, even though Philosophers never explicitly use all three at once (although they always use Life).
The fact that it's called Necromantic energy is more a result of the fact that your character is told the energy you're surveying is called Necromantic as opposed to a generalized Arcane. It's like if Rangers were trained in Life Magic but, in their training, they were told that they see "Tree Energy". Just because the Rangers ICly see and call it Tree Energy doesn't mean they're using Tree Magic. It's still Life Magic.
It's like how Bards hear energy as opposed to seeing it. It's not that they're perceiving a totally different type of Elemental energy than War Mages, but they're just trained to recognize it by sound instead of sight. At the same time, Rangers see Life energy as blue/white while Empaths see it as blue/green. They see it differently, and could theoretically call it something else based on that (Rangers with their "Tree Energy" and Empaths with their "Heart Power" or whatever), but in the end they're still creating Life magic.
Philosophers still create Arcane magic, but they're trained in a very specific subset that revolves around Life energy mixing with Lunar and/or Elemental.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/11/2010 07:02 PM CDT
>>You're mixing up magics. Arcane is just magical, mixed mana is sorcery.
Ah. Right. Arcane is just outside normal magical theory, while Sorcery is a mix of energy, which is a nice step outside how any "normal" magical theory should work.
Ah. Right. Arcane is just outside normal magical theory, while Sorcery is a mix of energy, which is a nice step outside how any "normal" magical theory should work.
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/11/2010 07:28 PM CDT
Thanks Teveshszt . A most insightful response.
<<The fact that it's called Necromantic energy is more a result of the fact that your character is told the energy you're surveying is called Necromantic as opposed to a generalized Arcane.
If Arcane energy and necromantic energy are pretty much the same , both mix mana types. and I only perceive them different because of what I was told , retuning , etc. Then they are pretty much the same no ? Neither being a subset.
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
<<The fact that it's called Necromantic energy is more a result of the fact that your character is told the energy you're surveying is called Necromantic as opposed to a generalized Arcane.
If Arcane energy and necromantic energy are pretty much the same , both mix mana types. and I only perceive them different because of what I was told , retuning , etc. Then they are pretty much the same no ? Neither being a subset.
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/11/2010 08:32 PM CDT
AFAIK, Arcane energy is a conceptual mix of two or more mana types.
Necromantic energy is specifically a mix of Life/Lunar/Elemental. But even then it's more of a conceptual mix because all that mixing is really happening as you're putting a spell together.
Look at it this way (if I'm right, at least). Let's say, primary [ink] colors are the only colors that "really" exist. Red, Blue, Yellow. That's it. Now, you've read about how, in theory, mixing Red and Blue makes Purple, but you accept that Purple doesn't "really" exist. It's more of a color concept.
Now, say you get some kind of traumatic brain injury. Now you see Purple. But you're not really seeing Purple, you are actually seeing Blue and Red at the same time and you're SO messed up, you're seeing a conceptual thing that you're not supposed to be processing at all. Meanwhile, in reality, people are only supposed to see Red OR Blue OR Yellow. You're just that messed up that you somehow see two colors at the same time.
Necromantic energy is specifically a mix of Life/Lunar/Elemental. But even then it's more of a conceptual mix because all that mixing is really happening as you're putting a spell together.
Look at it this way (if I'm right, at least). Let's say, primary [ink] colors are the only colors that "really" exist. Red, Blue, Yellow. That's it. Now, you've read about how, in theory, mixing Red and Blue makes Purple, but you accept that Purple doesn't "really" exist. It's more of a color concept.
Now, say you get some kind of traumatic brain injury. Now you see Purple. But you're not really seeing Purple, you are actually seeing Blue and Red at the same time and you're SO messed up, you're seeing a conceptual thing that you're not supposed to be processing at all. Meanwhile, in reality, people are only supposed to see Red OR Blue OR Yellow. You're just that messed up that you somehow see two colors at the same time.
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 01:13 AM CDT
Back to my original point ....
>>There's a difference between "Sorcery" and Arcane magic .
and
>>a Necro's primary magic Is "Arcane Magic"
Not Necromatic magic.
which was in response to
>>Arcane -> Sorcery -> Necromancy/Teleological Sorcery/Blackfire Sorcery ->
I confess , I mentioned the instance of power perceiving "necro" mana , instead of arcane mana because I knew the response would be a general "there is No Real difference between the two". Which is , if anyone was reading , exactly what I was trying to point out.
Other then tiny philosophical details about which mana types are weaved or how demented , retuned or confused a Necro PC is. From an overhead standpoint , there seems no believable difference between Arcane magic / Necromantic magic.
Americans call it Soccer , Europeans call it Football
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
>>There's a difference between "Sorcery" and Arcane magic .
and
>>a Necro's primary magic Is "Arcane Magic"
Not Necromatic magic.
which was in response to
>>Arcane -> Sorcery -> Necromancy/Teleological Sorcery/Blackfire Sorcery ->
I confess , I mentioned the instance of power perceiving "necro" mana , instead of arcane mana because I knew the response would be a general "there is No Real difference between the two". Which is , if anyone was reading , exactly what I was trying to point out.
Other then tiny philosophical details about which mana types are weaved or how demented , retuned or confused a Necro PC is. From an overhead standpoint , there seems no believable difference between Arcane magic / Necromantic magic.
Americans call it Soccer , Europeans call it Football
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 01:27 AM CDT
>> Other then tiny philosophical details about which mana types are weaved or how demented , retuned or confused a Necro PC is. From an overhead standpoint , there seems no believable difference between Arcane magic / Necromantic magic.
>>Americans call it Soccer , Europeans call it Football
They're not the same thing being called different names, though.
Arcane magic is like Sports, and Necromancy is like Baseball, a subset of sports.
Arcane magic is a philosophy of magic that goes outside the normal boundaries of normal/"safe" magical theory. Sorcery is a subset of that philosophy that involves combining different streams of energy. Necromancy is a subset of that which specifically involves combining Life energy with Elemental and/or Lunar energy.
So, Necromancers practice "Arcane Magic[al Theory]", and the books which they practice that through are the Necromantic concepts involving Life energy plus Elemental and/or Lunar energy.
This is different from Clerics who practice "Holy Magic[al Theory]" and practice through the Cleric concepts involving Holy energy.
>>Americans call it Soccer , Europeans call it Football
They're not the same thing being called different names, though.
Arcane magic is like Sports, and Necromancy is like Baseball, a subset of sports.
Arcane magic is a philosophy of magic that goes outside the normal boundaries of normal/"safe" magical theory. Sorcery is a subset of that philosophy that involves combining different streams of energy. Necromancy is a subset of that which specifically involves combining Life energy with Elemental and/or Lunar energy.
So, Necromancers practice "Arcane Magic[al Theory]", and the books which they practice that through are the Necromantic concepts involving Life energy plus Elemental and/or Lunar energy.
This is different from Clerics who practice "Holy Magic[al Theory]" and practice through the Cleric concepts involving Holy energy.
ROBERTDH
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 01:59 AM CDT
Arcane energy in the contexts its being mentioned should probably be thought of in the sense of 'obscure.' A moon mage looks at a War Mage and sees traces of vanilla about his aura, but looks at a necromancer and sees a convoluted but distinctive mush. It's not a specific thing so much as it's not a specific thing.
A moon mage looks at a necromancer and goes 'This aura can't be classified! It's Arcane' Necromancy is (currently) the only known sorcerous practice that effects your magical aura in this way. There is some debate about wether other sorcery leaves similar marks.
Analogous spells - the practical opposite of sorcery - are also Arcane.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
A moon mage looks at a necromancer and goes 'This aura can't be classified! It's Arcane' Necromancy is (currently) the only known sorcerous practice that effects your magical aura in this way. There is some debate about wether other sorcery leaves similar marks.
Analogous spells - the practical opposite of sorcery - are also Arcane.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 02:39 AM CDT
I understand these points. I've read all the material , via Elanthipedia
"Necromancy is a subset of Sorcery. Sorcery is dangerous and unstable magic that society abhors and that may or may not have some intrinsic evilness about it."
"Attunement to Arcane mana involves some pretty substantial changes to how a Necromancer's nervous system works, The goal of the procedure is to produce a magician that can see and operate with multiple types of mana at once. It... doesn't quite work."
"etc, etc."
and everything else pointed out..... Im trying to make common IG sense of it.
Intriguingly enough is the apparent difference between Arcane magic and Arcane mana , since only the retuning process allows access to the mana. Arcane magic can be accessed without retuning. It seems that Arcane Magic is either Way beyond a primary skillset for necros or really just the same thing.
Too me it would make more sense if we perceived Arcane mana , and had Necromantic magic as a primary skillset.
thats my 2 cents.
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
"Necromancy is a subset of Sorcery. Sorcery is dangerous and unstable magic that society abhors and that may or may not have some intrinsic evilness about it."
"Attunement to Arcane mana involves some pretty substantial changes to how a Necromancer's nervous system works, The goal of the procedure is to produce a magician that can see and operate with multiple types of mana at once. It... doesn't quite work."
"etc, etc."
and everything else pointed out..... Im trying to make common IG sense of it.
Intriguingly enough is the apparent difference between Arcane magic and Arcane mana , since only the retuning process allows access to the mana. Arcane magic can be accessed without retuning. It seems that Arcane Magic is either Way beyond a primary skillset for necros or really just the same thing.
Too me it would make more sense if we perceived Arcane mana , and had Necromantic magic as a primary skillset.
thats my 2 cents.
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 09:43 AM CDT
>>Analogous spells - the practical opposite of sorcery - are also Arcane.
Aren't they the complete opposite of Arcane? Analogous spells are types that work under any kind of theory, as opposed to outside of any kind of theory.
>>A moon mage looks at a War Mage and sees traces of vanilla about his aura, but looks at a necromancer and sees a convoluted but distinctive mush. It's not a specific thing so much as it's not a specific thing.
I like this comparison.
>>Intriguingly enough is the apparent difference between Arcane magic and Arcane mana , since only the retuning process allows access to the mana.
ICly, there's no such thing as Arcane energy. There's no such thing as Necromantic energy either. That's why Sorcery is seen as "so bad". It's literally fueled by something that shouldn't be.
Philosophers are so messed up because they're seeing something that shouldn't/doesn't exist, let alone somehow creating things from it. It's "bad"/"dangerous" enough when people are able to create things by binding two or more types of energy. The fact that people see those energies bound as some kind of natural state is seen ICly as total fiction.
>>Too me it would make more sense if we perceived Arcane mana , and had Necromantic magic as a primary skillset.
We do perceive Arcane energy. But that Arcane energy is comprised of Life/Lunar/Elemental, which is generally referred to as Necromantic energy. At the same time, Philosophers cast spells using Arcane Magic[al Theory].
I think the Primary Magic "types" might be easier to understand if seen as Magical Theories as opposed to directly being linked to the type of energy used in that theory. So Holy Magical Theory is a theory of magic that uses Holy Energy. Elemental Magical Theory is a theory of magic that uses Elemental Energy. Arcane Magical Theory is a theory of magic that uses Arcane Energy. The only difference in the latter is that Arcane Energy can be broken down to different subsets that go beyond the type of color a Ranger sees vs what an Empath sees, or how a Bard "hears" it while a War Mage "sees" it, etc.
Aren't they the complete opposite of Arcane? Analogous spells are types that work under any kind of theory, as opposed to outside of any kind of theory.
>>A moon mage looks at a War Mage and sees traces of vanilla about his aura, but looks at a necromancer and sees a convoluted but distinctive mush. It's not a specific thing so much as it's not a specific thing.
I like this comparison.
>>Intriguingly enough is the apparent difference between Arcane magic and Arcane mana , since only the retuning process allows access to the mana.
ICly, there's no such thing as Arcane energy. There's no such thing as Necromantic energy either. That's why Sorcery is seen as "so bad". It's literally fueled by something that shouldn't be.
Philosophers are so messed up because they're seeing something that shouldn't/doesn't exist, let alone somehow creating things from it. It's "bad"/"dangerous" enough when people are able to create things by binding two or more types of energy. The fact that people see those energies bound as some kind of natural state is seen ICly as total fiction.
>>Too me it would make more sense if we perceived Arcane mana , and had Necromantic magic as a primary skillset.
We do perceive Arcane energy. But that Arcane energy is comprised of Life/Lunar/Elemental, which is generally referred to as Necromantic energy. At the same time, Philosophers cast spells using Arcane Magic[al Theory].
I think the Primary Magic "types" might be easier to understand if seen as Magical Theories as opposed to directly being linked to the type of energy used in that theory. So Holy Magical Theory is a theory of magic that uses Holy Energy. Elemental Magical Theory is a theory of magic that uses Elemental Energy. Arcane Magical Theory is a theory of magic that uses Arcane Energy. The only difference in the latter is that Arcane Energy can be broken down to different subsets that go beyond the type of color a Ranger sees vs what an Empath sees, or how a Bard "hears" it while a War Mage "sees" it, etc.
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 11:20 AM CDT
<<I think the Primary Magic "types" might be easier to understand if seen as Magical Theories as opposed to directly being linked to the type of energy used in that theory
"Now, the name of the skill<primary magic> depends on the type of mana that you use." - elanthipedia
"Magic in DragonRealms is not as simple as waving a hand and making things blow up. The energy that powers a spell must come from somewhere. Energy (called mana) does not come from within your character. For Moon Mages, mana comes from the heavenly bodies; for all other spellcasters it comes from the local environment.." - play.net
A guilds primary magic is a reference to the mana they use. Thats the base understanding.
<<ICly, there's no such thing as Arcane energy
I beg to differ. Elanthians are surrounded by it. Since a magic type is too be understood as a reference to Mana type, they know it exists , even if it's not understood as well as other energies. WMs trace "Arcane" sigils in the air when casting. Maybe in OOC terms its theory.
<<There's no such thing as Necromantic energy either
Im pretty sure just about all of Elanthia , except the philosophers, wouldn't agree. And they would only deny it out of anonymity.
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
"Now, the name of the skill<primary magic> depends on the type of mana that you use." - elanthipedia
"Magic in DragonRealms is not as simple as waving a hand and making things blow up. The energy that powers a spell must come from somewhere. Energy (called mana) does not come from within your character. For Moon Mages, mana comes from the heavenly bodies; for all other spellcasters it comes from the local environment.." - play.net
A guilds primary magic is a reference to the mana they use. Thats the base understanding.
<<ICly, there's no such thing as Arcane energy
I beg to differ. Elanthians are surrounded by it. Since a magic type is too be understood as a reference to Mana type, they know it exists , even if it's not understood as well as other energies. WMs trace "Arcane" sigils in the air when casting. Maybe in OOC terms its theory.
<<There's no such thing as Necromantic energy either
Im pretty sure just about all of Elanthia , except the philosophers, wouldn't agree. And they would only deny it out of anonymity.
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 12:07 PM CDT
I'm going to be honest, I haven't chipped in yet because this thread comes across to me as a little incoherent.
Is there a specific question someone can construct?
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Is there a specific question someone can construct?
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 12:33 PM CDT
>>A guilds primary magic is a reference to the mana they use. Thats the base understanding.
Yeah, and as I said, I think it's better to view it as a reference to the theory behind how they use that energy, as opposed to just a blanket "Holy Magic means Holy energy".
So while the skill name depends on the type of mana used, at the same time it's more in reference to the theory behind how character X uses it. So Philosopher Bob is using Arcane Magic [Theory], which has his versed in how to use Arcane Magic, but at the same time he's trained (or screwed over) to understand Necromantic energy in particular, because that's what his guild uses.
>>Is there a specific question someone can construct?
I think the questions are...
1) Why are Necromancers trained in Arcane Magic yet they perceive Necromantic magic. Why isn't it called Necromantic Magic instead.
2) What are the differences between Arcane Magic, Sorcerous Magic, and Necromantic/Teleological/Blackfire/Etc Magic
Yeah, and as I said, I think it's better to view it as a reference to the theory behind how they use that energy, as opposed to just a blanket "Holy Magic means Holy energy".
So while the skill name depends on the type of mana used, at the same time it's more in reference to the theory behind how character X uses it. So Philosopher Bob is using Arcane Magic [Theory], which has his versed in how to use Arcane Magic, but at the same time he's trained (or screwed over) to understand Necromantic energy in particular, because that's what his guild uses.
>>Is there a specific question someone can construct?
I think the questions are...
1) Why are Necromancers trained in Arcane Magic yet they perceive Necromantic magic. Why isn't it called Necromantic Magic instead.
2) What are the differences between Arcane Magic, Sorcerous Magic, and Necromantic/Teleological/Blackfire/Etc Magic
KOUGEN
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 12:38 PM CDT
>WMs trace "Arcane" sigils in the air when casting.
There's also a difference between arcane and Arcane.
Seriously, you guys need to let Armifer finish rewriting the lore so he can post it for you. It literally doesn't make sense right now, and the parts that do make sense have already been posted much more comprehensibly.
~ Kougen
Vorasus says, "There will be blood."
Vorasus drinks your milkshake.
There's also a difference between arcane and Arcane.
Seriously, you guys need to let Armifer finish rewriting the lore so he can post it for you. It literally doesn't make sense right now, and the parts that do make sense have already been posted much more comprehensibly.
~ Kougen
Vorasus says, "There will be blood."
Vorasus drinks your milkshake.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 12:43 PM CDT
>>Seriously, you guys need to let Armifer finish rewriting the lore so he can post it for you. It literally doesn't make sense right now, and the parts that do make sense have already been posted much more comprehensibly.
In the end, he's the last word, but it's kinda hard to roleplay a character that cares about magical theory without having a direction to go in.
In a worst case scenario, if my OOC understanding of it is wrong or it changes in order to better fit magical theory as a whole, that just means my character has to reassess his understanding of how things work and why, which isn't too terrible to deal with.
In the end, he's the last word, but it's kinda hard to roleplay a character that cares about magical theory without having a direction to go in.
In a worst case scenario, if my OOC understanding of it is wrong or it changes in order to better fit magical theory as a whole, that just means my character has to reassess his understanding of how things work and why, which isn't too terrible to deal with.
KOUGEN
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 01:47 PM CDT
>In the end, he's the last word, but it's kinda hard to roleplay a character that cares about magical theory without having a direction to go in.
You kind of do, and I really encourage you to not rely too much on your OoC knowledge to determine this.
OoCly I understand all of this about as perfectly as one possibly can right now. ICly my Moon Mage thinks he is able to detect an "Arcane (configuration of) mana" on Necromancers because they're tainted from oversaturation in sorcery. That's like, an over-simplification of a half-truth, but he also doesn't have access to a Necromancer Magic discussion board, so that works for his limited experience.
Having said that...
>1) Why are Necromancers trained in Arcane Magic yet they perceive Necromantic magic. Why isn't it called Necromantic Magic instead.
A messaging discrepancy that doesn't have any (current) relevance to the meaning you're trying to extract from it.
>2) What are the differences between Arcane Magic, Sorcerous Magic, and Necromantic/Teleological/Blackfire/Etc Magic
>Arcane Magic
Your skill at using the unholy amalgamation of all mana types to power spells. There is no such thing as an "Arcane spell" outside the mundane sense of the word.
>Sorcerous Magic
>>Sorcery is the act of using multiple types of mana to empower a spell pattern. A sorcerous spell is one that is written to presume this is happening. - Armifer
"Sorcerous casting" also occurs when you attempt to power a single mana spell with a different mana of any type (including Arcane)
>and Necromantic
Any sorcery that includes Life mana.
>Teleological/Blackfire/Domination/Etc Magic
Books of plain "vanilla" Sorcery, the same way that Holy Defense, Spirit Manipulation and Justice are books of Holy Magic.
~ Kougen
Vorasus says, "There will be blood."
Vorasus drinks your milkshake.
You kind of do, and I really encourage you to not rely too much on your OoC knowledge to determine this.
OoCly I understand all of this about as perfectly as one possibly can right now. ICly my Moon Mage thinks he is able to detect an "Arcane (configuration of) mana" on Necromancers because they're tainted from oversaturation in sorcery. That's like, an over-simplification of a half-truth, but he also doesn't have access to a Necromancer Magic discussion board, so that works for his limited experience.
Having said that...
>1) Why are Necromancers trained in Arcane Magic yet they perceive Necromantic magic. Why isn't it called Necromantic Magic instead.
A messaging discrepancy that doesn't have any (current) relevance to the meaning you're trying to extract from it.
>2) What are the differences between Arcane Magic, Sorcerous Magic, and Necromantic/Teleological/Blackfire/Etc Magic
>Arcane Magic
Your skill at using the unholy amalgamation of all mana types to power spells. There is no such thing as an "Arcane spell" outside the mundane sense of the word.
>Sorcerous Magic
>>Sorcery is the act of using multiple types of mana to empower a spell pattern. A sorcerous spell is one that is written to presume this is happening. - Armifer
"Sorcerous casting" also occurs when you attempt to power a single mana spell with a different mana of any type (including Arcane)
>and Necromantic
Any sorcery that includes Life mana.
>Teleological/Blackfire/Domination/Etc Magic
Books of plain "vanilla" Sorcery, the same way that Holy Defense, Spirit Manipulation and Justice are books of Holy Magic.
~ Kougen
Vorasus says, "There will be blood."
Vorasus drinks your milkshake.
NIKPACK
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 02:08 PM CDT
<<Too me it would make more sense if we perceived Arcane mana , and had Necromantic magic as a primary skillset.
thats my 2 cents.
I know this is more of a mechanical approach to the arguement, but how would your opinion change given the discussion we had at Simucon how there are not enough "survival based" abilities for necromancers and that a focus of development will be in changing that?
It kind of makes sense to me. Magic for necromancers is setup because they are not a magic secondary guild. As such, they aren't using their own brand of mana but trying to combine others'. It's just not their focus. They should be using their thanatological links (ala empaths and shift) to be doing supernatural feats - like make risen to transfer poisons or disease to others.
Nikpack
The gods are jerks. No, really.-Armifer
I don't think we ever take the training wheels off as players or gamemasters.-Inauri
thats my 2 cents.
I know this is more of a mechanical approach to the arguement, but how would your opinion change given the discussion we had at Simucon how there are not enough "survival based" abilities for necromancers and that a focus of development will be in changing that?
It kind of makes sense to me. Magic for necromancers is setup because they are not a magic secondary guild. As such, they aren't using their own brand of mana but trying to combine others'. It's just not their focus. They should be using their thanatological links (ala empaths and shift) to be doing supernatural feats - like make risen to transfer poisons or disease to others.
Nikpack
The gods are jerks. No, really.-Armifer
I don't think we ever take the training wheels off as players or gamemasters.-Inauri
GARAED
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 02:22 PM CDT
>how would your opinion change given the discussion we had at Simucon how there are not enough "survival based" abilities for necromancers and that a focus of development will be in changing that?
My opinion of the guild keeps getting better and this is definitely a step in the right direction. Necromancers are survival prime and I would like to see the reasoning for this solidify.
Right now my one issue with the whole thing (and it's a very small one that I'm content to wait on) is that it feels like we should be magic primary because that's what is defining our guild. I know that is likely to change and I'm fine with waiting on that, but I am really looking forward to the examples you listed above.
How blessed are some people, whose lives have no fears, no dreads, to whom sleep is a blessing that comes nightly, and brings nothing but sweet dreams. -Bram Stoker's Dracula
My opinion of the guild keeps getting better and this is definitely a step in the right direction. Necromancers are survival prime and I would like to see the reasoning for this solidify.
Right now my one issue with the whole thing (and it's a very small one that I'm content to wait on) is that it feels like we should be magic primary because that's what is defining our guild. I know that is likely to change and I'm fine with waiting on that, but I am really looking forward to the examples you listed above.
How blessed are some people, whose lives have no fears, no dreads, to whom sleep is a blessing that comes nightly, and brings nothing but sweet dreams. -Bram Stoker's Dracula
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 02:28 PM CDT
>>You kind of do, and I really encourage you to not rely too much on your OoC knowledge to determine this.
Oh, I'm not saying my character knows everything mentioned on the board, but it's good for me to keep in mind as I'm expressing what he knows.
>>A messaging discrepancy that doesn't have any (current) relevance to the meaning you're trying to extract from it.
Keep in mind it isn't what I'm trying to ask but what someone else asked, but that said I don't think it's a discrepancy.
>>Your skill at using the unholy amalgamation of all mana types to power spells. There is no such thing as an "Arcane spell" outside the mundane sense of the word.
Eh, I disagree (not just on the unholy part, either!). AFAIK, Arcane magic is magical theory that goes outside of conventional magical theory. But the only type we have of that so far is sorcery. I don't think Arcane theory explicitly relies on mixing energy types. The rest of what you said I agree with, though.
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Thought_crossed_my_mind._-_2/19/2009_-_17:17:54
Oh, I'm not saying my character knows everything mentioned on the board, but it's good for me to keep in mind as I'm expressing what he knows.
>>A messaging discrepancy that doesn't have any (current) relevance to the meaning you're trying to extract from it.
Keep in mind it isn't what I'm trying to ask but what someone else asked, but that said I don't think it's a discrepancy.
>>Your skill at using the unholy amalgamation of all mana types to power spells. There is no such thing as an "Arcane spell" outside the mundane sense of the word.
Eh, I disagree (not just on the unholy part, either!). AFAIK, Arcane magic is magical theory that goes outside of conventional magical theory. But the only type we have of that so far is sorcery. I don't think Arcane theory explicitly relies on mixing energy types. The rest of what you said I agree with, though.
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Thought_crossed_my_mind._-_2/19/2009_-_17:17:54
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 03:03 PM CDT
The gut of what Im getting at is Arcane magic appears to encompass too wide of a spectrum for a primary magic skillset. Or Necromantic magic/Specific Sorcery, has to looked at as more powerful.
Im not saying the team is doing a bad job , No way , shape or form.
I think they've done a amazing job and I love the guild , its just , me and the gnome like to debate things. ; P
On the other subject , the comments on being a Survival Prime guild ,
all I can say is , Yes , yes yes. I couldn't agree more.
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
Im not saying the team is doing a bad job , No way , shape or form.
I think they've done a amazing job and I love the guild , its just , me and the gnome like to debate things. ; P
On the other subject , the comments on being a Survival Prime guild ,
all I can say is , Yes , yes yes. I couldn't agree more.
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
ROBERTDH
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 04:39 PM CDT
I think the root of this bizzareness is that you're trying to draw clean symmetries between other spellcastings and what the Necromancers are doing.
Necromancer Primary Magic Skill is not to Necromancer's Perceived Mana as Holy Magic is to Holy Mana, because necromancer's perceived mana is pretend, among other problems.
They're crudely hacking into the force with modded equipment, sensing and doing things that are impossible for a mage, and some of the most basic possibilities of magic are impossible for them.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
Necromancer Primary Magic Skill is not to Necromancer's Perceived Mana as Holy Magic is to Holy Mana, because necromancer's perceived mana is pretend, among other problems.
They're crudely hacking into the force with modded equipment, sensing and doing things that are impossible for a mage, and some of the most basic possibilities of magic are impossible for them.
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 05:46 PM CDT
There are a ton of flavors of 'Arcane mana', the Necromantic Mana that you see is the particular crazy blend you were subjected to that has all the inputs your Necromancer spells generally use. But it's certainly not the definitive 'Arcane mana' because that does not exist. That's why you learn Arcane Magic but see Necromantic Mana.
-Z
-Z
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 05:52 PM CDT
It's helpful to remember the definition of "arcane" and to not regard it as just a neat word for evil magic.
The Arcane realm is the realm of magic that covers spellbooks that fall outside the guild defined structures of how magic is organized and functions. For a real world parallel, it's a bit like how "borderline personality" was originally a catch-all for something a clinician couldn't diagnose, but then took on a life of its own due to chronic misuse.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
The Arcane realm is the realm of magic that covers spellbooks that fall outside the guild defined structures of how magic is organized and functions. For a real world parallel, it's a bit like how "borderline personality" was originally a catch-all for something a clinician couldn't diagnose, but then took on a life of its own due to chronic misuse.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 06:10 PM CDT
<<given the discussion we had at Simucon how there are not enough "survival based" abilities for necromancers and that a focus of development will be in changing that?>>
just as a tangent - you can put it in a different one of these topics, perhaps general discussions - but would you guys that went to simucon care to inform the rest of us what sort of goodies to expect? thanks
Necromancy provides the only source of reliable and potent life extension on Elanthia.
just as a tangent - you can put it in a different one of these topics, perhaps general discussions - but would you guys that went to simucon care to inform the rest of us what sort of goodies to expect? thanks
Necromancy provides the only source of reliable and potent life extension on Elanthia.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 07:03 PM CDT
>>The Arcane realm is the realm of magic that covers spellbooks that fall outside the guild defined structures of how magic is organized and functions.
Are there any examples of arcane magic that fall outside of sorcery?
Are there any examples of arcane magic that fall outside of sorcery?
V5AUSSIE
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 08:33 PM CDT
>>Are there any examples of arcane magic that fall outside of sorcery?
I'm no expert, but it seems like Blackfire might be a good example.
This idea may have worked in another time and another place, but here it immediately fell on its face and went "Durp durp." - Armifer
I'm no expert, but it seems like Blackfire might be a good example.
This idea may have worked in another time and another place, but here it immediately fell on its face and went "Durp durp." - Armifer
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 09:00 PM CDT
>>I'm no expert, but it seems like Blackfire might be a good example.
Blackfire is Sorcery. It's elemental and holy.
Blackfire is Sorcery. It's elemental and holy.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 09:10 PM CDT
>>Are there any examples of arcane magic that fall outside of sorcery?
Analogous Patterns.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Analogous Patterns.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 09:22 PM CDT
Ah, I thought analogous patterns were ultra-generalized inside every magic theory, not outside of all of them. Thanks for clarifying.
ALGOTHI
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 09:51 PM CDT
>>Are there any examples of arcane magic that fall outside of sorcery?
>>Analogous Patterns.
Interesting. Will this be reflected in Magic 3.0 with Analogous Patterns teaching Sorcery over Primary Magic?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
>>Analogous Patterns.
Interesting. Will this be reflected in Magic 3.0 with Analogous Patterns teaching Sorcery over Primary Magic?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 09:59 PM CDT
>>Interesting. Will this be reflected in Magic 3.0 with Analogous Patterns teaching Sorcery over Primary Magic?
Once more for emphasis: "Arcane magic" is not shorthand for Evil Magic.
Analogous Patterns won't teach Sorcery because it's not Sorcery. It's Arcane Magic because it defies attempts to classify it according to the guilds' conventional system.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Once more for emphasis: "Arcane magic" is not shorthand for Evil Magic.
Analogous Patterns won't teach Sorcery because it's not Sorcery. It's Arcane Magic because it defies attempts to classify it according to the guilds' conventional system.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
ALGOTHI
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/12/2010 10:11 PM CDT
>Analogous Patterns won't teach Sorcery because it's not Sorcery.
This confused me until I went back and realized I miss-read your previous post to read that Analogous Patterns WERE sorcery. This thread has been all over the place and my wires apparently got crossed somewhere along the lines.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
This confused me until I went back and realized I miss-read your previous post to read that Analogous Patterns WERE sorcery. This thread has been all over the place and my wires apparently got crossed somewhere along the lines.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
V5AUSSIE
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/13/2010 12:10 AM CDT
>>Blackfire is Sorcery. It's elemental and holy.
Sorry, braindead and misreading posts.
This idea may have worked in another time and another place, but here it immediately fell on its face and went "Durp durp." - Armifer
Sorry, braindead and misreading posts.
This idea may have worked in another time and another place, but here it immediately fell on its face and went "Durp durp." - Armifer
FELONIOUSPI
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/13/2010 07:05 PM CDT
Thanks much , Zeyurn , Armifer. I think you guys saw and answered the aspect that was bewildering me.
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
"Don't try and blame me for your sins, for the sun has burned me black" Your hollow lives , this world in which we live , I've hurled it back."
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/13/2010 09:00 PM CDT
Just thought I'd add...
>>As far as society is concerned, Arcane magic is a terrible evil thing. It may not always create Social Outrage, but even then it's not really seen as "approved". Blackfire and Teleological magic aren't seen as good things, nor is generalized Arcane stuff like Limb Disruption, Mana Disruption, etc. It's the Ghostbusters equivalent of Crossing the Streams. You're not supposed to do it. It's evil and bad and deadly and wrong. Now, it may or may not be true, in terms of the actual "science" behind it. But, for all intents and purposes, at least society ICly believes that Sorcery is too dangerous to play around with.
In regards to Sorcery specifically, society hates it because they've been weened to hate it. That being said ALL SORCERY IS VIOLENT in some way or form. Conceptually Teleological Sorcery is actually probably one of the more violent of the sorcerous books, even though it only has extremely subtle effects(dubbed sorcery lite). You'd have to really understand moon mage lore especially things around predictions and the plane of probability. But something as subtle and little, as shifting a prediction over to a new skill, is actually a horrendously vile act that causes far more damage in a butterfly effect than you can ever imagine.
_______________________
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away...
>>As far as society is concerned, Arcane magic is a terrible evil thing. It may not always create Social Outrage, but even then it's not really seen as "approved". Blackfire and Teleological magic aren't seen as good things, nor is generalized Arcane stuff like Limb Disruption, Mana Disruption, etc. It's the Ghostbusters equivalent of Crossing the Streams. You're not supposed to do it. It's evil and bad and deadly and wrong. Now, it may or may not be true, in terms of the actual "science" behind it. But, for all intents and purposes, at least society ICly believes that Sorcery is too dangerous to play around with.
In regards to Sorcery specifically, society hates it because they've been weened to hate it. That being said ALL SORCERY IS VIOLENT in some way or form. Conceptually Teleological Sorcery is actually probably one of the more violent of the sorcerous books, even though it only has extremely subtle effects(dubbed sorcery lite). You'd have to really understand moon mage lore especially things around predictions and the plane of probability. But something as subtle and little, as shifting a prediction over to a new skill, is actually a horrendously vile act that causes far more damage in a butterfly effect than you can ever imagine.
_______________________
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away...
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/13/2010 10:35 PM CDT
>>In regards to Sorcery specifically, society hates it because they've been weened to hate it.
Totally agree!
>>That being said ALL SORCERY IS VIOLENT in some way or form.
Not so sure about that, though. Energy Manacles is pretty passive, as is Obfuscation. I guess the Transcendent spells could be arguably hostile or passive, depending on your viewpoints on using magic to augment your body. Is covering your body in scales a hostile act against yourself, just because it transforms you? Is forcing your body to reconstruct itself a hostile act against yourself (or the divine?)?
Totally agree!
>>That being said ALL SORCERY IS VIOLENT in some way or form.
Not so sure about that, though. Energy Manacles is pretty passive, as is Obfuscation. I guess the Transcendent spells could be arguably hostile or passive, depending on your viewpoints on using magic to augment your body. Is covering your body in scales a hostile act against yourself, just because it transforms you? Is forcing your body to reconstruct itself a hostile act against yourself (or the divine?)?
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/13/2010 10:43 PM CDT
>>Not so sure about that, though.
This was explicitly said by Armifer at one point.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Thought_crossed_my_mind._-_2/19/2009_-_17:17:54
more specifically this...
>>Sorcery is characterized by violence -- while the means of sorcery are varied, inevitably there is something being undermined or destroyed. This can be as blatant as Blackfire consuming a man utterly, or as pervasive as Teleologic gnawing at the underpinnings of possibility and reality.
>>Is covering your body in scales a hostile act against yourself, just because it transforms you? Is forcing your body to reconstruct itself a hostile act against yourself (or the divine?)?
Short Answer: Yes.
_______________________
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away...
This was explicitly said by Armifer at one point.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Post:Thought_crossed_my_mind._-_2/19/2009_-_17:17:54
more specifically this...
>>Sorcery is characterized by violence -- while the means of sorcery are varied, inevitably there is something being undermined or destroyed. This can be as blatant as Blackfire consuming a man utterly, or as pervasive as Teleologic gnawing at the underpinnings of possibility and reality.
>>Is covering your body in scales a hostile act against yourself, just because it transforms you? Is forcing your body to reconstruct itself a hostile act against yourself (or the divine?)?
Short Answer: Yes.
_______________________
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away...
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/13/2010 11:01 PM CDT
Not to undermine what Armifer said... but personally it feels like calling something like Spiteful Rebirth, Obfuscation, or Calcified Hide as "undermining" is a matter of perspective. Same with saying that Life mana is "corrupted" because it is mixed with Lunar or Elemental.
Via the scope of IC social norms, I can see how they're seen as violent /perverse acts, but disconnected from that...
Via the scope of IC social norms, I can see how they're seen as violent /perverse acts, but disconnected from that...
ALGOTHI
Re: Arcane Magic Philosophy
07/13/2010 11:26 PM CDT
If you consider Obfuscation like a psychic malady forcefully blunting an observer's ability to perceive you, it has a rather violent feel.
Spiteful Rebirth, forcing dead flesh to unnaturally rearrange itself in opposition to natural law? Good there too.
Calcified Hide, causing your skin to mutate by forcing baleful energies into it, again violent in a "naturally abhorrent" sort of way.
I am sure you can find ways to describe any Sorcery as violent, its really all in how you perceive it.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Spiteful Rebirth, forcing dead flesh to unnaturally rearrange itself in opposition to natural law? Good there too.
Calcified Hide, causing your skin to mutate by forcing baleful energies into it, again violent in a "naturally abhorrent" sort of way.
I am sure you can find ways to describe any Sorcery as violent, its really all in how you perceive it.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
