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>>Seems everyone toes to the 13/39 line these days.
Not that this is necessarily bad... establishing a religion becomes considerably easier when the beings you worship resurrect you every time a hogshatters your chest into a bloody pulp.
It's also historically accurate for a medieval fantasy setting, heresey and Inquisitions and all.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
LUXORTH
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 06:10 PM CST
I've always played a Cleric. It's hard to deny the 13 (39) when you've actually met some of them.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 06:15 PM CST
I don't mean denying the existence of the Immortals. I mean the interpretation that there is actually one singular entity with 13/39 different names/faces/incarnations that manifest as necessary, versus 13/39 separate entities.
It's basically an even more condensed version of the theory that the dark and light aspects are really just the same god as the neutral, just with different names, faces, and intentions.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
It's basically an even more condensed version of the theory that the dark and light aspects are really just the same god as the neutral, just with different names, faces, and intentions.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
MOOK1
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 06:26 PM CST
<<I've always played a Cleric. It's hard to deny the 13 (39) when you've actually met some of them.
Various hallucinatory things pop into my mind as a possible explanation to the non-religious. Who knows what they put into Elanthian incense?
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
Various hallucinatory things pop into my mind as a possible explanation to the non-religious. Who knows what they put into Elanthian incense?
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 06:30 PM CST
>> Who knows what they put into Elanthian incense?
Close!
> A tea made from bark of the plant oshu'mary (also an ingredient found in the forbidden samatak) was ingested at this hour, to simulate the journey the spirit makes when the physical body dies.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
Close!
> A tea made from bark of the plant oshu'mary (also an ingredient found in the forbidden samatak) was ingested at this hour, to simulate the journey the spirit makes when the physical body dies.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
MELLIONM6
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 06:50 PM CST
All this said, why is it essential that there are ONLY 13/39 of these entities? Why can't there be other denizens of the divine plane who:
A) Are less powerful than the 13
B) Interfere less with the our plane of existence
C) Don't desire to be so widely known
D) Are in some way prevented from interacting with us directly
E) Interfere in less visible ways than direct resurrection and open person revelation to clerics
What evidence do we have that the demons capable of possessing the highly perverse necromancers aren't, in their own right, similar divinities to the 13, choosing to manifest themselves in this plane in an entirely different way.
A) Are less powerful than the 13
B) Interfere less with the our plane of existence
C) Don't desire to be so widely known
D) Are in some way prevented from interacting with us directly
E) Interfere in less visible ways than direct resurrection and open person revelation to clerics
What evidence do we have that the demons capable of possessing the highly perverse necromancers aren't, in their own right, similar divinities to the 13, choosing to manifest themselves in this plane in an entirely different way.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 07:00 PM CST
It's a bit funny that this is considered a serious subject among people who haven't nailed down a definite value for what the number of gods is to begin with.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
WILLN1
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 07:05 PM CST
The old man is Salvatine Ockham, a possessor of sorts ;)
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 07:25 PM CST
>>Various hallucinatory things pop into my mind as a possible explanation to the non-religious. Who knows what they put into Elanthian incense?
Mashing nilos into a salve instead of eating it in grass form, or waving incense at yourself, generally won't resurrect you from the dead.
Mashing nilos into a salve instead of eating it in grass form, or waving incense at yourself, generally won't resurrect you from the dead.
ASHBOMB
MOOK1
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 07:39 PM CST
<<Mashing nilos into a salve instead of eating it in grass form, or waving incense at yourself, generally won't resurrect you from the dead.
And? That's magic. There's quasi-scientific theories that can explain that. Check out the mana article on elathipedia.
Regardless, it has nothing to do with whether 'seeing' the gods means they actually exist or are just a contruct of doped up religious fanatics.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
And? That's magic. There's quasi-scientific theories that can explain that. Check out the mana article on elathipedia.
Regardless, it has nothing to do with whether 'seeing' the gods means they actually exist or are just a contruct of doped up religious fanatics.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
ASHBOMB
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 07:44 PM CST
It's been red-named before that everyone can assume that their characters know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the immortals are very real.
The Necromancer standpoint on them is different than your regular shopkeeper, I welcome you to research.
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
The Necromancer standpoint on them is different than your regular shopkeeper, I welcome you to research.
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
ROBERTDH
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 07:44 PM CST
>>... generally won't resurrect you from the dead.
>And? That's magic. There's quasi-scientific theories that can explain that.
Part of the quasi-science is that it doesn't explain resurrection. The spell pattern alone shouldn't do what it does, if a Paladin or a Sorceror could perfectly replicate the casting of the Ressurection spell it would at best appear to do something wrong and weird.
When clerics resurrect, they are drawing on something completely beyond magic.
"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer
>And? That's magic. There's quasi-scientific theories that can explain that.
Part of the quasi-science is that it doesn't explain resurrection. The spell pattern alone shouldn't do what it does, if a Paladin or a Sorceror could perfectly replicate the casting of the Ressurection spell it would at best appear to do something wrong and weird.
When clerics resurrect, they are drawing on something completely beyond magic.
"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 07:45 PM CST
>>And? That's magic. There's quasi-scientific theories that can explain that. Check out the mana article on elathipedia.
Magic theory has absolutely no explanations for spontaneous resurrection, nor how performing menial and decidedly non-magical rituals is the cause of this spontaneous resurrection.
Said resurrection and dependence on religious rituals is scientifically verifiable under lab conditions: repeatable with verifiable results every time, with the caveat that those who are the test subjects for the control group do not stick around to write up reports for the Scientific Elanthian Journal.
Discussing this OOC is interesting, but it really is quite absurd to suggest atheism in a world where you chat with said Gods every day.
You could perhaps debate the definition of godliness vs. mortality, but in an IC setting it should be understood OOCly that an character played as an atheist would have to be considered quite mad. Definition of insanity and all that.
Magic theory has absolutely no explanations for spontaneous resurrection, nor how performing menial and decidedly non-magical rituals is the cause of this spontaneous resurrection.
Said resurrection and dependence on religious rituals is scientifically verifiable under lab conditions: repeatable with verifiable results every time, with the caveat that those who are the test subjects for the control group do not stick around to write up reports for the Scientific Elanthian Journal.
Discussing this OOC is interesting, but it really is quite absurd to suggest atheism in a world where you chat with said Gods every day.
You could perhaps debate the definition of godliness vs. mortality, but in an IC setting it should be understood OOCly that an character played as an atheist would have to be considered quite mad. Definition of insanity and all that.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 07:48 PM CST
"Tell me," said Brutha, sipping his mug of water, "do any of them know much about gods?"
"You'd want a priest for that sort of thing," said the barman.
"No, I mean about...what gods are...how gods came to exist...that sort of thing," said Brutha, trying to get to grips with the barman's peculiar mode of conversation.
"Gods don't like that sort of thing," said the barman. "We get that in here some nights, when someone's had a few. Cosmic speculation about whether gods really exist. Next thing, there's a bolt of lightning through the roof with a note wrapped around it saying 'Yes, we do' and a pair of sandals with smoke coming out. That sort of thing, it takes all the interest out of metaphysical speculation."
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
"You'd want a priest for that sort of thing," said the barman.
"No, I mean about...what gods are...how gods came to exist...that sort of thing," said Brutha, trying to get to grips with the barman's peculiar mode of conversation.
"Gods don't like that sort of thing," said the barman. "We get that in here some nights, when someone's had a few. Cosmic speculation about whether gods really exist. Next thing, there's a bolt of lightning through the roof with a note wrapped around it saying 'Yes, we do' and a pair of sandals with smoke coming out. That sort of thing, it takes all the interest out of metaphysical speculation."
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 08:05 PM CST
>ask markat about immortals
Markat says, "There's not much to say. The gods exist; atheism is the pastime of naive scholars who are not personally damned by the will of the Immortals. We ascribe to them most of the physical, magical and spiritual qualities that the priests do, but we strongly reject the notion of divine right. The priests' own theology depict the Immortals as flawed, temperamental creatures as given to petty acts of violence as they are transcendent ideals. The Immortals have no right to dictate the behavior or moral compass of the thinking species, and, frankly, were it not for them actively interfering with us, they would be eminently ignorable."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
Markat says, "There's not much to say. The gods exist; atheism is the pastime of naive scholars who are not personally damned by the will of the Immortals. We ascribe to them most of the physical, magical and spiritual qualities that the priests do, but we strongly reject the notion of divine right. The priests' own theology depict the Immortals as flawed, temperamental creatures as given to petty acts of violence as they are transcendent ideals. The Immortals have no right to dictate the behavior or moral compass of the thinking species, and, frankly, were it not for them actively interfering with us, they would be eminently ignorable."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
ASHBOMB
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 08:07 PM CST
=?O Ohmigod
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
MOOK1
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 08:13 PM CST
<<Part of the quasi-science is that it doesn't explain resurrection. The spell pattern alone shouldn't do what it does, if a Paladin or a Sorceror could perfectly replicate the casting of the Ressurection spell it would at best appear to do something wrong and weird.
<<When clerics resurrect, they are drawing on something completely beyond magic.
This is the nature of the confounds as described in the aforementioned mana article. Which does explain why a paladin or sorceror cannot, albeit not laid out in a 'C follows from A if you also do B' manner.
<<Discussing this OOC is interesting, but it really is quite absurd to suggest atheism in a world where you chat with said Gods every day.
The only time my character has 'chatted' with the gods was:
-during character creation, which is not something I consider part of his RP nor IC knowledge. I mean I popped out of the primordial holy ooze after speaking with Faenella at the ripe age of 16+ years old?
-when departing, which is about as surreal a situation as you could imagine. I'd hardly count anything someone sees or does during a near-death experience, however supernatural that experience may be in Elanthia, as being entirely trustworthy.
-when drowning myself in Eluned's lagoon or whatever that place is called that's part of the cleric quest. Once again, drowning usually doesn't elicit particularly lucid thinking.
There was a discussion back when the first meteor showers were hitting about what the darkening skies meant. One of the interpretations put out there and RP'd by several people was that the gods did not in fact exist and this event was evidence of that. That event as a whole unfortunately turned out to be just a fest advertisement and all related RP promptly went the way of the dodo once it opened.
I'm not saying that everyone should go out in game and denounce the theocracy that is the Temple and its various sister religions. In fact, none of my characters are played as anything close to atheists. But to suggest that its absurd to RP something like that is what is absurd.
<<but in an IC setting it should be understood OOCly that an character played as an atheist would have to be considered quite mad. Definition of insanity and all that.
That is one IC interpretation that would be a valid response to someone who plays an atheist.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
<<When clerics resurrect, they are drawing on something completely beyond magic.
This is the nature of the confounds as described in the aforementioned mana article. Which does explain why a paladin or sorceror cannot, albeit not laid out in a 'C follows from A if you also do B' manner.
<<Discussing this OOC is interesting, but it really is quite absurd to suggest atheism in a world where you chat with said Gods every day.
The only time my character has 'chatted' with the gods was:
-during character creation, which is not something I consider part of his RP nor IC knowledge. I mean I popped out of the primordial holy ooze after speaking with Faenella at the ripe age of 16+ years old?
-when departing, which is about as surreal a situation as you could imagine. I'd hardly count anything someone sees or does during a near-death experience, however supernatural that experience may be in Elanthia, as being entirely trustworthy.
-when drowning myself in Eluned's lagoon or whatever that place is called that's part of the cleric quest. Once again, drowning usually doesn't elicit particularly lucid thinking.
There was a discussion back when the first meteor showers were hitting about what the darkening skies meant. One of the interpretations put out there and RP'd by several people was that the gods did not in fact exist and this event was evidence of that. That event as a whole unfortunately turned out to be just a fest advertisement and all related RP promptly went the way of the dodo once it opened.
I'm not saying that everyone should go out in game and denounce the theocracy that is the Temple and its various sister religions. In fact, none of my characters are played as anything close to atheists. But to suggest that its absurd to RP something like that is what is absurd.
<<but in an IC setting it should be understood OOCly that an character played as an atheist would have to be considered quite mad. Definition of insanity and all that.
That is one IC interpretation that would be a valid response to someone who plays an atheist.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
ASHBOMB
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 08:19 PM CST
>Evran's post
Not to argue with you on this one, but if you truly want to believe that athiesm is a valid sane roleplay option in game, i recommend you research previous redposts by current GMs. Dart iirc specifically.
in fact, here you go.
http://staff.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=26&topic=9&low=65&high=99999999&page=7
Not to argue with you on this one, but if you truly want to believe that athiesm is a valid sane roleplay option in game, i recommend you research previous redposts by current GMs. Dart iirc specifically.
in fact, here you go.
http://staff.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=26&topic=9&low=65&high=99999999&page=7
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 08:21 PM CST
My own character was semi-infamous for RPing the closest thing to an atheist I am personally comfortable saying could exist without being completely gone mentally, and even I admitted OOCly that she wasn't really right in the head.
Even then she still admitted they as beings existed, just basically pulled a Philosopher and tried to say they have no divine authority.
This was all pre-necromancer guild, mind. Now, things have changed for her, and it's funny to see that line of thinking get turned into the basis for a guild.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
Even then she still admitted they as beings existed, just basically pulled a Philosopher and tried to say they have no divine authority.
This was all pre-necromancer guild, mind. Now, things have changed for her, and it's funny to see that line of thinking get turned into the basis for a guild.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
JOMBODOLO
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:13 PM CST
Starting off a sentence with "Not to argue" and then arguing is more rediculous than RPing as an athiest. It's kind of funny you are referencing OOC information for why a character would have to be insane to RP as an athiest. Even if the game and the GM's say, "Look a God, yep it's a God, yeah huh" doesn't mean a character has to be insane to RP as if they don't exist.
If Elanthia wasn't a world where magic and extra-planar creatures were commonplace then, yes, the evidence that the Gods exist and are actual Gods would be pretty hard to refute. However, due to the fact we see flames conjured from thin air, dead people speaking, gates torn through space, rocks crushing skulls at the will of a mage and all the other insane things on a daily basis, it's not exactly insane to think that the little acts of bringing someone back to life is not due to some all-seeing-knowing-powerful being.
Just because you are so set in your ways doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with you is flat-out wrong. It's really not that much of a leap to think the "Gods" could just be arrogant and extremely powerful mages. Weirder things have happened in Elanthia.
If Elanthia wasn't a world where magic and extra-planar creatures were commonplace then, yes, the evidence that the Gods exist and are actual Gods would be pretty hard to refute. However, due to the fact we see flames conjured from thin air, dead people speaking, gates torn through space, rocks crushing skulls at the will of a mage and all the other insane things on a daily basis, it's not exactly insane to think that the little acts of bringing someone back to life is not due to some all-seeing-knowing-powerful being.
Just because you are so set in your ways doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with you is flat-out wrong. It's really not that much of a leap to think the "Gods" could just be arrogant and extremely powerful mages. Weirder things have happened in Elanthia.
ASHBOMB
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:15 PM CST
>Starting off a sentence with "Not to argue" and then arguing is more rediculous than RPing as an athiest. It's kind of funny you are referencing OOC information for why a character would have to be insane to RP as an athiest. Even if the game and the GM's say, "Look a God, yep it's a God, yeah huh" doesn't mean a character has to be insane to RP as if they don't exist.
I was being civil. You're welcome to your opinion J'l.. I mean Jombodolo.
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
I was being civil. You're welcome to your opinion J'l.. I mean Jombodolo.
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:16 PM CST
>> all-seeing-knowing-powerful being.
The error is assuming "god" is synonymous with omnipotence, ominpresence, or omniscience.
There is never any assertion of that anywhere in the literature. That is a result of players bringing in their concept of god from RL abrahamic religions.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
The error is assuming "god" is synonymous with omnipotence, ominpresence, or omniscience.
There is never any assertion of that anywhere in the literature. That is a result of players bringing in their concept of god from RL abrahamic religions.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
JOMBODOLO
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:20 PM CST
Claiming you were being civil doesn't actually mean you were. You're trying to say anyone who RP's athiest is wrong and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. That's not exactly playing nice. Try responding to the points I brought up instead of pretending like I'm attacking you.
JOMBODOLO
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:24 PM CST
<<The error is assuming "god" is synonymous with omnipotence, ominpresence, or omniscience.
You've got a point there. I'm curious then, according to the literature what constitutes someone being a God?
You've got a point there. I'm curious then, according to the literature what constitutes someone being a God?
MACCABEE1
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:24 PM CST
<<bringing someone back to life is not due to some all-seeing-knowing-powerful being.>>
the gods are not the same as "God" in western thought. The gods are not all-seeing, nor are they "all-knowing". They had a hell of a time trying to defeat the world dragon, for instance.
They are more akin to the "gods" of greek, roman mythology. Immortal, yes. Powerful, yes. But not ALL-powerful.
In-game evidence for this? A nameless character of mine in TF when i played over there... all right, it was necrobob. Yes, i had named him necrobob. He was a gnome. Placed worms and dirt on altars all over zoluren. Never once struck down. :-)
The undead hordes would like to take this moment to remind you that they are quite happy to eat your brains so that you may test new depart.Please consider it.Hugs and kisses, Team Necro.
ASHBOMB
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:25 PM CST
If you want to continue being hostile, I would recommend taking the conversation to the conflicts folder.
Personally I don't care how anyone else RPs, but some people appreciate the information.
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
Personally I don't care how anyone else RPs, but some people appreciate the information.
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:30 PM CST
>> You're trying to say anyone who RP's athiest is wrong and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
I think he's saying that a character that indulges in that kind of thinking is lacking some mental faculty or another, or is otherwise deluded.
This is not wrong.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
I think he's saying that a character that indulges in that kind of thinking is lacking some mental faculty or another, or is otherwise deluded.
This is not wrong.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
ROBERTDH
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:35 PM CST
>You've got a point there. I'm curious then, according to the literature what constitutes someone being a God?
Anyone with enough power often gets 'god' thrown around. extraplanar demons, the World Dragon, minor cult deities.
The Immortals are just the ones who've been around the longest and who own and operate the spiritual planes and the solar system.
"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer
Anyone with enough power often gets 'god' thrown around. extraplanar demons, the World Dragon, minor cult deities.
The Immortals are just the ones who've been around the longest and who own and operate the spiritual planes and the solar system.
"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer
JOMBODOLO
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:40 PM CST
For everyone but Clerics and Paladins the Gods are pretty much nonexistant in their daily lives aside from favors which aren't irrefutable evidence of divinity in the world that is Elanthia. Saying a character has to either be retarded or delusional because he/she doesn't believe the Gods are anything more than wizened wizards doesn't make it so.
<<Anyone with enough power often gets 'god' thrown around. extraplanar demons, the World Dragon, minor cult deities.
The gaining of power in Elanthia is virtually never-ending. It's really not a stretch to think the Gods aren't just very old, very strong dudes who wanted to be revered. People religiously following some person or entity doesn't make them a God to anyone but the followers.
In real world terms, even if the entire world's population was of a single religion that still wouldn't prove what/who they worship is a God to people who weren't a part of the religion. Divinity is in the eye of the beholder, if you will. People put the label "God" on things, sometimes the "God" kinda likes the label.
<<Anyone with enough power often gets 'god' thrown around. extraplanar demons, the World Dragon, minor cult deities.
The gaining of power in Elanthia is virtually never-ending. It's really not a stretch to think the Gods aren't just very old, very strong dudes who wanted to be revered. People religiously following some person or entity doesn't make them a God to anyone but the followers.
In real world terms, even if the entire world's population was of a single religion that still wouldn't prove what/who they worship is a God to people who weren't a part of the religion. Divinity is in the eye of the beholder, if you will. People put the label "God" on things, sometimes the "God" kinda likes the label.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:41 PM CST
The previous conversations we've had, as a group, in this vein make me hesitant to explore the concept with the depth and ambiguity that it could support.
At least with the forums as they stand in recent months, just stating "DR gods are real in the setting, atheism as we know it in RL does not exist or is the result of a delusional state" is about as far as it's sane to go into. Interested parties are free to explore the already existent volume of material in-game and on the forums for more information.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
At least with the forums as they stand in recent months, just stating "DR gods are real in the setting, atheism as we know it in RL does not exist or is the result of a delusional state" is about as far as it's sane to go into. Interested parties are free to explore the already existent volume of material in-game and on the forums for more information.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
ASHBOMB
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 09:45 PM CST
>At least with the forums as they stand in recent months, just stating "DR gods are real in the setting, atheism as we know it in RL does not exist or is the result of a delusional state" is about as far as it's sane to go into. Interested parties are free to explore the already existent volume of material in-game and on the forums for more information.
I'd be happy to discuss divine right and power hoarding ;)
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
I'd be happy to discuss divine right and power hoarding ;)
_____________________
>>I'm constantly amazed by the things that people do in game that would get them punched in the face in RL, but then they try to claim that they didn't do anything that would warrent a PvP situation.<<
-Evran
SCARRED
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 10:20 PM CST
>> >ask markat about immortals
Markat says, "There's not much to say. The gods exist; atheism is the pastime of naive scholars who are not personally damned by the will of the Immortals. We ascribe to them most of the physical, magical and spiritual qualities that the priests do, but we strongly reject the notion of divine right. The priests' own theology depict the Immortals as flawed, temperamental creatures as given to petty acts of violence as they are transcendent ideals. The Immortals have no right to dictate the behavior or moral compass of the thinking species, and, frankly, were it not for them actively interfering with us, they would be eminently ignorable."
Awesome
Markat says, "There's not much to say. The gods exist; atheism is the pastime of naive scholars who are not personally damned by the will of the Immortals. We ascribe to them most of the physical, magical and spiritual qualities that the priests do, but we strongly reject the notion of divine right. The priests' own theology depict the Immortals as flawed, temperamental creatures as given to petty acts of violence as they are transcendent ideals. The Immortals have no right to dictate the behavior or moral compass of the thinking species, and, frankly, were it not for them actively interfering with us, they would be eminently ignorable."
Awesome
KAELRX
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 10:25 PM CST
>>>ask markat about immortals
What are you doing? You should be searching...
What are you doing? You should be searching...
DYSTROPHY
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 10:34 PM CST
>>What are you doing? You should be searching...
Seems he has.
Seems he has.
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: The Old Man
12/09/2009 11:18 PM CST
Ugh. I hate the gods vs. God discussion with a passion. The moment you start bringing the capital G into things you're Doing It Wrong.
For the purposes of our RPG, the term 'god' can be taken to mean 'really insanely powerful being that people worship'. Saying "I don't believe in the gods, they're just really powerful beings that people worship" is going to have people looking at you funny.
DR gods != God. They are not intended to = God. They are intended to = DR gods.
I find it odd that you can be surrounded by both a mantle of flame and blades of ice.
Shush, it's magic.. suspend your disbelief
For the purposes of our RPG, the term 'god' can be taken to mean 'really insanely powerful being that people worship'. Saying "I don't believe in the gods, they're just really powerful beings that people worship" is going to have people looking at you funny.
DR gods != God. They are not intended to = God. They are intended to = DR gods.
I find it odd that you can be surrounded by both a mantle of flame and blades of ice.
Shush, it's magic.. suspend your disbelief
ROBERTDH
Re: The Old Man
12/10/2009 12:09 AM CST
>For the purposes of our RPG, the term 'god' can be taken to mean 'really insanely powerful being that people worship'. Saying "I don't believe in the gods, they're just really powerful beings that people worship" is going to have people looking at you funny.
This.
"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer
This.
"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer
MACCABEE1
Re: The Old Man
12/10/2009 02:32 AM CST
who is, and where is, Markat?
The undead hordes would like to take this moment to remind you that they are quite happy to eat your brains so that you may test new depart.Please consider it.Hugs and kisses, Team Necro.
The undead hordes would like to take this moment to remind you that they are quite happy to eat your brains so that you may test new depart.Please consider it.Hugs and kisses, Team Necro.
LORD-RAHL
Re: The Old Man
12/10/2009 02:47 AM CST
Someone hasn't been following the visions very well.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: The Old Man
12/10/2009 02:52 AM CST
Markat is a pretty hilarious and cool NPC.
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
Rev. Reene
"I used to appreciate these stars just for their beautiful form, but now I can't help a twinge of feeling that it is uncannily like looking down the barrel of a rifle." - Peter Tuthill
