Please also supply coinage.

My Empath does not believe that noobs with gweths, fancy shields, tanned armor and forged weapons, lots of fluff from festivals, etc., etc., are "poor."

"Alas and alack! I am but a poor orphan, who was given these fine goods by a kind stranger! I can only hunt wood trolls. Thus, though it grieve me to the depths of my soul, I can offer you nothing more than this small clear topaz."

Seriously?

Tell me another.

-- Player of Szrael --

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\x'Empathic shock is a purely physical reaction with no moral or ethical component.\r

>Or, gasp, log off one character, and tip with the other.

No, just carry coin if you're going to carry nice gear.

As someone who has supplied a lot of young strangers with armor etc over the years (and yes I try to remember to give them a pouch of gems for tips) I find it completely believeable they wouldn't have a lot to offer an empath for healing and should not be judged by what they are wearing.

I think it's a mistake to judge characters based on what they wear and assume it may be from an alt of theirs and truly not some random stranger.

>>As someone who has supplied a lot of young strangers with armor etc

It's one thing to have like, a buckler or some "superior serpent-skin leathers" and another thing to have perfect firecats, tanned armor, forged weapons, gweths, fluff, etc.

>>I think it's a mistake to judge characters based on what they wear and assume it may be from an alt of theirs and truly not some random stranger.

From an IC perspective, it's the only way to really judge someone's wealth. If someone who has an inventory full of nice items comes in, we have no way to tell what to charge them except their inventory and what they claim to hunt.

So the next time you give a newb an entire inventory's worth of stuff, give them some money too so their eyes don't bug out when an Empath asks them for more than two silver's worth of compensation.

>>It's fair to point out that this situation does exist, but I would generally agree that they are an extreme minority

This, basically. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You don't get to use the "but I am a young adventurer, only recently embarked upon life's quest" excuse if you have nicer stuff than the Empath who's working on you.

-- Player of Szrael --

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\x'Empathic shock is a purely physical reaction with no moral or ethical component.\r

Empaths and the expectation of payment for services is certainly a recurring theme. I'm truly curious what those who demand or expect payment do with the money you may or may not deserve. What really are your base needs? What are you in the Guild for or expect out of being in the Guild?

I expect some of you will react before you even finish reading. I do indeed play Empaths and have for 12 years so take a moment for thought before you accuse me of not knowing what it's like. I'm not advocating you have to heal or shift on demand or ever heal or shift. That becomes a personal choice we all make.

Personally all I need is inexpensive, functional equipment I can shrug off when I die and not worry about going back for if I so choose. Doesn't matter whether it's where I currently spend most of my playing time (Plat) or in Prime, I don't begrudge someone being better outfitted than I am in my Empath personas. It would be difficult not to be better equipped.

Asbhuan et al

Don't forget that some people just don't know. Its not a requirement in DR to understand all guilds and etiquette. I don't personally take tips cause that's not why I choose to heal. Before I was an empath I played a ranger and I was completely clueless that not paying/tipping an empath 1/2 my bank account was an insult. It also doesn't help that what some empaths think is a sufficient tip may not be the same as the next empath. I do agree that when we look at someone the things they wear do help set our impression of them. But I know many people that wear expensive gifts and things they would never be able to part with and that person is poor.

>>Empaths and the expectation of payment for services is certainly a recurring theme. I'm truly curious what those who demand or expect payment do with the money you may or may not deserve. What really are your base needs? What are you in the Guild for or expect out of being in the Guild?

Szrael is a S'Kra Mur and a member of one of the Musparan branches of Sraan Malk. Her sense of honor and "worthiness" is therefore tied up in her ability to negotiate or haggle. Szrael views healing as a Trade endeavor, just like making and selling gwethdesuans, armor, backpacks, or what-have-you. So she always negotiates the price up front. Her negotiations have nothing to do with whether or not she needs money.

Szrael always gets something in return for her healing, whether the patient knows it or not. (A future favor or general good will are certainly things worth having.)

She thinks that the southern tradition of the impoverished healer is deeply degrading to those who engage in it, and views such people to be little more than willing slaves, which she finds disgusting. The Southerners think Szrael is a greedy and cruel. This leads to lots of fun conflict.

So in Szrael's case, the money actually has nothing to do with it. She just wants to be paid a fair price, and "fair" depends on what the patient can offer her. Surprisingly, most people aren't willing to haggle at all -- they immediately take offense and quite often insult Szrael for daring to attempt to set her own prices.

Also, I think your Platinum playing may have skewed your perspective a bit, DELVER. Keeping oneself in gweths in prime is actually rather costly (probably 25 plat for a set, once a month, plus more if you get gwethsmashed a lot), and until Dart rolled in the no-more-shield breakage, one had to replace tanned bucklers (15 plat a pop) fairly often as well. Basically, it costs more to "exist" in Prime. A true wood troll hunter, in Prime, cannot afford a set of gweths or a tanned buckler, and certainly cannot afford a set of gweths, all tanned and forged armor, and expensive fluff. Szrael can't afford all that stuff, for that matter, at 45th circle. (Still using the chain shirts from the crossing armor shop -- it costs upwards of 100 platinums to kit oneself out in forged or tanned armor.)

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Now, as to everyone saying, "But I give noobs nice gear all the time! It's not fair to make them pay more because they really are actually poor!"

Again, I think that such newbs are in a minority. People outfitting their alts with tons and tons of super fancy crap and then expecting to pay newb prices for healing is the problem here. I wouldn't really blink at a newb with a set of perfect firecats and not much else, but when they have the inventory of a 50+ or greater character, I'm going to have a much harder time suspending my disbelief.

-- Player of Szrael --

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\x'Empathic shock is a purely physical reaction with no moral or ethical component.\r

I appreciate the responses. It sometimes helps if we are retrospective and ask ourselves the more basic questions. The complaints have always been there and probably always will.

A valid point that the last almost 3 years in Plat has skewed my perspective more than when I was only playing in Prime. The Prime economy is just downright obscene nowadays.

While Plat may be easier on the pocketbook in some respects, relative costs are still in play. My perspective on just getting what I need to survive on has been there all along. It's more a minimalist approach. If I'm afraid of losing it why have it.

I've always turned down tips, but that's my personal outlook based on what I feel I need to get through. I do on rare occassions accept a tip but that usually finds its way back into other players hands through an anatomy chart, shield, camb, drinks at the taverns and the like.

Asbhuan

>>What really are your base needs?

Ferry fare and vault fees. I can keep up with those well enough, but that doesn't leave me much left for spending money elsewhere. No armor, no weapon, no clothes to cover up my nekkidness, no food/drink if I feel like being social or otherwise immersible in the evironment, no participation in creation systems like forging, no fun and interesting stuff like at festivals, not even basic training stuff like origami or jugglies.

If I get stuff like the above, replacement kills my wealth pretty quickly.

DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.

>>What really are your base needs?

>Ferry fare and vault fees.

add citizen fees to that

--
If life doesn't need intelligence,
Then why should intelligence need life?
--
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Legeres
http://www.myspace.com/ledge_ear_us
http://legeres.deviantart.com

>>add citizen fees to that

Zoluren citizenship as an empath or a paladin is free. Not because it actually costs 0 kronars a month, but because there's no compelling reason for you to do things to manage debt there (ie, don't have to steal, don't have to tithe, don't have to keep money there, can task/hunt for quick cash nearby, etc).

DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.

>>I actually was about to reply, but then I realized you can't be that dense.

I'd be happy to listen to how you disagree. Right now, I've got zero reason to pay Zoluren for anything they want to apply to my debt. Zoluren debt doesn't affect me at all, because the characters I play either don't carry that much debt in the first place or have no reason to pay down debt.

This is what I know debt affects:

1)theft
2)tithing (paladin)/donating (cleric)
3)withdrawal of money from a provincial bank
4)something traderish (rep? ability to get new contracts?)

I know I've heard more things, but I can't remember what they were or am unsure (ie, I'm feeling like rangers getting companions are affected by debt but I might be misremembering warrants as debt here). Not a single thing on that list affects my paladin or my empath in any way, either because the benefits provided by that action (ie, tithing) aren't really worth it, I don't need to do it (ie, tithing, theft), or I have convenient ways around the restriction (ie, bank thugs and the premie ability to pull money out of any bank in any province).

DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.

i have citizenship in zoulren, and i have been in ratha, my zourlen fees are adding up and i have not been back for more than a pass thru in quite some time. i don't see how you would not have expenses no matter where you choose to reside, not neccessarily daily but making money is a neccessary part of exsisting, but to be honest, that really has NOTHING to do with tipping.

empaths provide a service that you would have to PAY to get any other way, be it thru herbs or an autohealer ( or a mule empath that you are paying rl money to have on a seperate account ). you would not go to the dr and expect to be taken care of for free, and it is silly that you would expect that from an empath. everyone does it differently and everyone has different expectations of what is adequate payment for services rendered. it does not matter what "expenses" the empath incurs, it matters that YOU are expecting some one to do something for nothing so making an agruement about expenses is really not addressing the issue at all.

and before anyone mentions the experience gain from healing i just want to point out 2 things

1. to heal your external and internal left arm bleeder it requires 2 to 4 spells depending on the empath.
2. i can heal a deader with mulitple bleeders and only move my empathy to pondering, the experience gain from healing is really small as you get to higher circles ( and really my empath is not all that big) but i can walk for an hour, working other skills, and get to mind locked

so, don't think of it as tipping, think of it as paying for a service rendered. ( yes i understand that my agruement is a little odd since my empath does not take tips, but it is not because she does not deserve them and DEFINITELY not because other empaths should not get paid well for their services.)

Szrael always asks for payment up front if she expects payment. She casts heart link on the patient before healing them so they cannot just say "Thank you!" and run away.

I hate the word tip, and I hate the tip verb. I'd rather the verb was called pay and didn't have that godawful condescending messaging. Szrael does not want you to pat her on the shoulder appreciatively, or whatever it is.

Asking for payment up front very often results in being insulted or attacked though. Almost all of Szrael's PvP incidents have resulted from people flipping out about her asking for payment up front. (Not demanding it after the fact!) I think this says a lot about how people perceive Empaths, and their "rank" in DragonRealms.

Demanding it after the fact would be sort of fun, but yeah. I would understand why people took that amiss.

-- Player of Szrael --

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\x'Empathic shock is a purely physical reaction with no moral or ethical component.\r

>>Demanding it after the fact would be sort of fun, but yeah. I would understand why people took that amiss.

Except even if you're calling it a tip, if you're demanding it at all, it's payment. Which a lot of Empaths are guilty of. (myself included.)

Mind, I've whined my fair share of times at bad tippers, so this is sort of representative of a change in my own mindset; after thinking about it I believe the most sensible course of action would just be to ask for it up front, or otherwise try not to care beyond never healing them again if that's your preference. I guess I'm mellowing in my old age or something, because it's just not worth hassling people over not tipping me well enough anymore.

Stiffing me for payment is another matter entirely, however, and will still send my Empath on the warpath.

---

Rev. Reene

"What's the good of having mastery over cosmic balance and knowing the secrets of fate if you can't blow something up?"

It's somewhat disturbing that I find Szrael's methods appealing. The idea of payment up front prior to commencing the healing process sounds like a winner, and would result in my empath not having to rely on someone else's so-called generosity. Much like shifting services that have known pricing structures, a healing services price list would be nice.

2 plat per wound that is devastating or above, so if your chest is completely destroyed and I have to take that wound in two stages, it's 1 plat per stage of that wound....

1 gold per insignificant wound... +1 gold for each wound level beyond insignificant, up to a maximum of 2 plat per wound.

I should write a script what will assign a monetary value to each wound and calculate the cost immediately upon "touching" the patient. What an interesting idea...

I like it.


________________________________________

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein

>>script to assign monetary value

That's actually a pretty cool idea. I'd probably have various brackets -- noob, low level, mid level, high level, end game. You could pretty easily have the script spit out a value which could then have a level based multiplier.


-- Player of Szrael --

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\x'Empathic shock is a purely physical reaction with no moral or ethical component.\r

>>Perhaps different pricing structures for circles 0-20, 20-50, 50-100, and 100+, though I'm not sure how I would be able to know that information to incorporate it into a script.

In TF, the healer bot simply refuses to heal you if you don't use TELLEXP. TELLEXP shows everything, allowing the healer bot to figure out your expected income level even if you yourself aren't aware of it. Then, it waits to be paid the appropriate amount. Script written because somehow stiffing empaths is a problem there as well and the old attitude of LEAN to be healed, NUDGE for poison, and NAG for disease wasn't working so well.

DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.

with genie you have the technology

-- Player of Szrael --

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\x'Empathic shock is a purely physical reaction with no moral or ethical component.\r

>>How the HELL does a script calculate everything to circle check a random profession character?

Saet is just that awesome

~Arwinia

Thieves will continue to be dominated by the awesome power of the perceive health ability - that which causes rivers to dry up, babies to cry, and the earth to shake.
Stand back mortal, lest ye health be perceived.
-Ssra