I'm sitting at 141 PM currently. The wikipedia listing for SOL in 3.0 states 15/100 for the spell prep and it being an Advanced, 3 slot spell. Anyone have any idea yet what sort of numbers are going to be required for that spell's result to equal or surpass a 40 volume Damite+ Tower shield?

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I believe the glass is half full, of toxic chemicals and deadly parasitic microbes.

>> rewyn

Why cant SOL cap shields? It requires far more work then owning a damite shield (once you own it).

You compared it to moonblade but divine armor is a better comparison. That spell takes lower tier armor and can essentially cap it, probably better then rare armor.

So yeah, the only point i see you making is you dont want clerics to have a spell you deem is too powerful.

I suppose I could have clarified it a bit better in the original question. What I was really trying to ask was, "Is SOL ever going to be worth using over a top end crafted shield and if so, when?"

However if we want to have a discussion about it, if the requirements are set high enough then having a personal shield that can be dispelled and can't be given away/sold, as well as requiring some sort of upkeep in the mana department shouldn't automatically mean it can't equal the quality of mundane shields in my eyes.

I'm saying that in a very unbiased way, since if it proves true that the SOL will never equal the protection capability of a crafted shield then I'll be using one of those.

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I believe the glass is half full, of toxic chemicals and deadly parasitic microbes.

A lot of arguing but I still don't see any substantive answer to the question.

I really don't know. Shield of Light in 2.0 has been one of the best shields in the realms but I haven't seen a comparison of what SOL is in 3.0.

It really is immaterial what 'should' be- just what is.

Even if SOL is not as superior as it has been, that it will now convey a shield bonus versus all attacks plus has the versatility of being able to change shapes.

Anyone have a good appraisal for the top end SOL in 3.0 so we can compare it to forged shields?

Okay I just signed into test and tried SOL- and I don't know whether I can cap it or not but for a tower I get low to great protection, 'sever impact and weighs 100 stone.

I said

"weighs practically nothing"

A bad choice of words, but not far off considering.

Here is a comparison vs capped steel tower shield


You put your tower shield on the counter.

Naissura hefts the tower shield and puts it on the medium balance scale. She patiently adds small sacks of stones on the other side till the beam becomes exactly level.

Naissura squints at the balance beam needle and says, "The shield weighs about two hundred fifteen stones," and puts the shield on the counter.

You pay Naissura and take your shield off the counter.

You are certain that it imposes significant (10/15) maneuvering hindrance.

This shield is large in size.

Your experience with shields allows a better appraisal of the protection capabilities.

You are certain that the shield offers low (7/26) to great (16/26) protection.

You are certain that it could do:
no (0/26) puncture damage
no (0/26) slice damage
severe (13/26) impact damage

You are certain that the shield is inadequately (4/15) balanced and is reasonably (7/15) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.

You are certain that the tower shield is quite guarded against damage (12/18), and is in pristine condition (98-100%).

The tower shield is made with metal.
It appears that the tower shield can be worn on the left arm.
You believe that the tower shield weighs around 215 stones.


So your shield weighs less than half(46%), has no issues with being dinged, has the same stats (it seems like, you said low to great right?) and I bet you has way better hindrance than capped steel.

Thats already a very sexy spell, AND it gives you a shield skill bonus?

This has nothing to do with guilds, and you pointing a finger at my vocal nature to undermine my point is really just childish. Asking for the ability to create damite shields at will is ridicoulous; your basically asking for a spell to create tier 6 gear for you, better than quest items and as good as any player could create in the game. There is no precedence in the game for anything like that. You effectively want something that create you a shield out of nothing (super convinient) that offers better than steel hindrance and weight to also compare to a damite shield?

While I'm biased, your simply delusional.

In 3.0, SoL will boost shield skill on a worn (held?) shield, so it's never useless. And it has a very long duration. In 2.0, even with moderate pm (say, 200-300) I found the spell useless even vs. undead, because it 'only' apped the same as a tanned buckler, and the buckler never needed charging. Personally, I'd say if you can get any duration out of the shield buff over 10 minutes, then it's a great spell.

And why is your cleric with 100 PM using an expensive shield at all, let alone a tower? That's just weird. You're not getting a whole lot of bang for the cost, and you're tanking your evasion.

Clerics also lack shield in their SOI, so shield 'stuff' is going to be minimal, remember.

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

>> Rewyn

Your argument is terrible. You act like someone who has, for example, 1000 PM, didn't earn it, so therefore can't have a good shield. Yet someone who spent 3200 platinums should be able to? Which is actually harder to get?

Also, repairing is negligible. Anyone can repair shields/armor with minimal investment, it's only expensive if you repair at a shop.

Also, your comparison to moon blade is severely lacking. Moonblade in its current incarnation can STORE spells and release them, they can be split to provide FREE AMMO for TKS. That's FREE WEIGHTLESS AMMO that never has to be repaired. Plus all kinds of other uses...

You also aren't taking into account that 3.0 changed hindrance from weight of shield to something else, there is so many factors that are in play here that you completely dismiss that are important.

Just stop.

>> Free weightless ammo that can only be used once and is destroyed on impact. Zero other uses for the slivers.

Which you can recast, it's very awesome. I wouldn't dismiss it because it doesn't seem good for you to use.

>> Which is irrelevant to the discussion of 3.0 spells. It requires a Metaspell with its own cost to add this function in 3.0.

It's very relevant. He was comparing SOL to Moonblade.

>> I have no idea what you're talking about. Weight has always just been weight, and there's always been a Hinderance stat on shields.

Nope. Why do you think the lowest weight shields are the best? Even if shields have always had their own hindrance, weight itself further penalized shield, through hindrance or directly in the combat code. That's gone in 3.0, so weight doesn't have any further combat implications beyond weight itself.


It always turns into GvG with Rewyn. Seriously annoying. It always "x is better then y," "x should be y." And then you read through 10 posts and realize he has no idea what he's talking about. Zzz.

>>It's very relevant. He was comparing SOL to Moonblade.

The 2 slot aspect of both spells is to create an item that is shapeable. That is directly comparable. The third slot for you a shield boost where Moonblade can get an additional affect as a meta. That is noise.

>>Nope. Why do you think the lowest weight shields are the best? Even if shields have always had their own hindrance, weight itself further penalized shield, through hindrance or directly in the combat code. That's gone in 3.0, so weight doesn't have any further combat implications beyond weight itself.

A number of x factors are adjusted in 3.0, but the fact remains your are getting a crafting comparable shield that cant be broken for free that has below normal hindrance. If you can point out where that is not in line with other 'create an item' spells, I would like to see it. Moon Blades do not gain above average suitability or balance compared to capped crafting, but they can be used for ammo. That seems in line with your below average hindrance values.

>>It always turns into GvG with Rewyn. Seriously annoying. It always "x is better then y," "x should be y." And then you read through 10 posts and realize he has no idea what he's talking about. Zzz.

If throwing the GvG label at something somehow makes you feel you can ignore the hole in your logic here, feel free. I did not bring my guild into this at any time other than clarifying how divine armor works when it was brought up inaccurately as an apples to apples comparison with shield of light. You are asking for something that has no precedence in the current game design, basically for free tier 6 gear on a spell that could be available to all magic users via scrolls (as almost everything in 3.0 is).

Frankly you are being overly defensive on what is frankly an absurd request. If you somehow feel shorted on the cleric 3.0 changes, then I would like whatever you are smoking.

>Why do you think the lowest weight shields are the best?

The same reason that the lowest weight shields are the best in crafting 2.0. The cap doesn't depend on the weight. While this is still the case to some degree in Crafting 3.0, there are so many various templates that are slightly different to cap.

>It always turns into GvG with Rewyn

He made a logical comparison, especially since Moonblade has been compared to the planned WM weapon creation spells. Why would a Shield creation spell get to create Tier 5+ stuff when no weapon creation spell can? Regardless of what else the spell does, or how many slots it costs, creating an item from nothing, and having it be any forged quality, is powerful. If you don't want the spell because it doesn't make capped rare metal quality shields, take your own advice.

>I wouldn't dismiss it because it doesn't seem good for you to use.

And, for the record, I was just correcting so fallacious statements you had made, not dismissing it.

Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer

My understanding is that, when you have the proper weapon techs, moonblades currently function as roughly (if not exactly) the midsteel equivalent of a masterful weapon. I don't find this notably unbalancing. It would make perfect sense for SoL to function similarly.

But, from the sound of things, SoL might already be functioning similar to that, only without the tech requirement and at a notably advantageous weight difference. Moonblades created are done so with stats comparable to their weight/density, I'm not sure SoL is even taking that into account right now. It's not like moonblades have the stats of a 5 density midsteel X while weighing half what it should. Instead, it has the stats comparable to something midsteel at a similar weight.

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

The Akigwe's Legacy appraisals do not use the new app values and are thus inaccurate(notice there is a disclaimer on each page about the apps being inaccurate). Its a great idea though, but I'm not sure where to get accurate appraisals for shields in Akigwe's Legacy.

It's most directly comparable to that iron banded shield which seems on the very low end of tier 5 (similar stats to capped steel but with far less weight(150 vs 215) and a special trader function, and lowered hindrance(9/16 vs 10/16)

In either case compared to a quest item, SOL is 50 stones lighter, and has moderate hindrance vs noticeable hindrance. A -poof- out of no where tier 5 shield and you also get an shield skill booster.

>>..but clearly the buff from SOL is not in the stats of the shield itself

As far as I have read, SoI only affects the boost to skills from skill enhancers that you cast, so casting SOL gets you the maximum shield bonus possible based off your skill/mana/etc.

<<The Akigwe's Legacy appraisals do not use the new app values and are thus inaccurate(notice there is a disclaimer on each page about the apps being inaccurate). Its a great idea though, but I'm not sure where to get accurate appraisals for shields in Akigwe's Legacy.

I missed that. Thanks for pointing that out.

<<In either case compared to a quest item, SOL is 50 stones lighter, and has moderate hindrance vs noticeable hindrance. A -poof- out of no where tier 5 shield and you also get an shield skill booster.
and
<<I know I bang this gong on a daily basis, but it is very important to compare things that are similar weight when saying if something outclasses something else.

I totally agree, and a listing of forged shields would help to make a better comparison.
Anyone have a list somewhere?

Nikpack

Thank you sir!

Comparing my values to similar weighted items, storm bull looks to be one of the best materials around and makes a good comparison candidate.

Note, the weight values aren't exact, and I had to use the targe shield template instead of the oval shield one SOL uses. I feel OK about the weights because it's 3 stones for the target shield, and the heaviest three targes are 50, 50, and 57 stones with little variation among them.

http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Shield:Target_shield_(crafted)
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Shield:Targe_(crafted)

Material	Size	Hind	Held-Basic	Held-Full	Worn-Basic	Worn-Full	Impact	Bal	Suit	Const	Wt
Bull, Storm target shield	small	3 - Light	3 - Dismal	12 - Good	3 - Dismal	8 - Fair	9 - Heavy	6 - Decently	3 - Poorly	7 - Appreciably Susceptible	30
Bull, Storm targe	medium	04 - Minor	04 - Very Poor	13 - Very Good	04 - Very Poor	10 - Moderate	10 - Very Heavy	06 - Decently	03 - Poorly	07 - Appreciably Susceptible	50

Compared with my other table (which were all full held appraisals), these data suggest to me that player-crafted shields out-perform SOL slightly, but SOL allows a cleric to wear an medium arm-worn shield for added versatility.

Nikpack

Hey, I liked to learn more about the spell as well.

Learning is best done with data, no?

Nikpack

The weapon template results on epedia are amazing at giving me a great understanding of how raffle/quest/etc stuff compares to forged gear.

Kinda wish someone would do it for armor/tailoring/etc!

I'd fill out what I can, but you might be surprised that there is little need for data on the utility tree of blacksmithing. At least for now.

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The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).

What kinda of data do you want for armors? I can probably rips through most of them in steel, etc... for baselines.

Player of Ryken
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AIM - RykenDR

>What kinda of data do you want for armors? I can probably rips through most of them in steel, etc... for baselines.

non-weighted medium carbon steel would be a decent starting point.

Then as many weights in high carbon as you can stand doing. If you need steel made, I'm willing to contribute by making it.

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<<A little late to this discussion, but the advantage of using an SoL (besides the awesome looks you can get for it at fests and such) is the boost to the shield skill, not in the appraisal of the shield itself. I'd rather have a magical glowy shield with a decent appraisal and a skill buff than a great shield with no buff.

But from my understanding, I don't think that's how it works.

Do you get the skill buff if you use the SOL-made shield instead of casting SOL while using a physical one? My understanding was the latter only worked.

I could be very wrong though.

Nikpack