Interesting. Not to bad honestly. Performing did go up higher than our base instrument skill requirements, but that is to be expected. When Bardic Lore gets put in, do you think it will be on par with the Performing req or with 1st Lore req? Also, if you can answer it, will enchantes (new cyclic spells) still teach performing as part of using them? If not, I anticipate the guild halls might start filling up again as bards have to sit to practice Performing. Oh, and thank you for having no restricted skills! It really reinforces the 'jack of all trades' that some bards like to do! Lets us branch out and each try to be our own bard.

>>will enchantes (new cyclic spells) still teach performing as part of using them?

>I don't THINK so but you raise a valid point. I'll sync with the Magic folks and the Bard folks.

Thank you for looking in to this. With our combat requirements as they are, we will be hard pressed to learn performing without any gain from enchantes as instruments can't be played while in combat. Nor can instruments be played while holding crafting tools (as we work on our other lore reqs). This Performing req might turn out to be a very difficult req indeed.

Do note that Socharis and I have hatched a plan to make Performing more interesting (and rewarding) to train, it's just a matter of when one of us finds time to develop the system. I know that's not promising much, but it is an issue we're aware of and walking into with eyes open.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

All looks well to me and pretty thematic. Thanks!

I'm going to need to build a circle calculator spreadsheet before I can say whether or not I have any personal issues with the reqs, though. At a top glance everything looks good to me though :)

Thanks again for all your work with this!

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

Oh, also, I seem to recall that Bardic Lore would get an exp bump similar to Warrior Mage Summoning and another guild's guild-only skill, due to the fact that we won't have that many ways to train it. Is that still the case?

I seem to recall that instrument playing would no longer teach it so I'm just curious :)

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

Weapons always hold me back.

However, with a beefier change in low circles, newer bards shouldn't have the same sort of handicap that (I feel) we've had in the past.

Start early!

Also, I approve of these reqs.
_______
Want to be a Necromancer? Use this flowchart. Totally Xerasyth approved.

http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Ysselt/Necroflowchart

>>Looks like we also dropped our second armor requirement?

Yep

>>will all of the enchantes be freed from instrument requirements?

This is more of a Magicky question, but yes. You won't explicitly need an instrument out to perform enchantes.

--

"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

>> I did have one question brought up by the discussion of training of performance via our enchantes... will all of the enchantes be freed from instrument requirements? I seem to recall that being the case, but I can't find anything to back that up now.

> RECALL LAST GM POST
Based on my recollection of what was last posted by a GM(Armifer and/or Raesh), all of our spells/enchantes will not require an instrument in 3.0, with the caveat that none of them will teach any skills outside of the magic skillset.

As far as if this will change in the future based on the discussions between Socharis/Raesh/Armifer/Whoever, I have no idea :P

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

>>i have to say, even though they did go up, they are still weaksauce compared to other magic secondary, namely necros.

I wouldn't really compare necromancers to anyone. They have the highest total skill point reqs, and part of me wonders if that is a nudge at the "hardmode" thing.

The average number of skills needed for 150th is 8,562. Necromancers have 9,890 total. Bards have 8,110.

question: does the vocals # = performing for bards if its your highest music? or into the lore pool like it does with everyone else?

"we're doing it for the good of mankind," said the philosophers of murder, waiting for the rest of the world to congratulate them"-Elie Wiesel <the gates of the forest>

>>question: does the vocals # = performing for bards if its your highest music? or into the lore pool like it does with everyone else?

Bards do not get special treatment for the skill combinations, nope.

--

"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

>I thought that Bards were the only ones who could use vocals for performing? When did that change?

-Broichan Leshyahen

> hum tuneless
You hum a tuneless tune.

>>i have to say, even though they did go up, they are still weaksauce compared to other magic secondary, namely necros.
I think you forget that there is a third magic secondary guild, Empaths.

Magic	Bard	Empath	Necro
M1	620	620	720
M2	550	570	700
M3	470	520	570
M4	420	450	570
M5	320	410	490
Total	8110	7880	9890

I will agree that Bards have it a bit easier than Empaths in regards to magic reqs, but I also agree with the comment that Necros are an 'advanced' guild and I believe their reqs reflect that.

If you don't want to craft, you can get by with appraisal, tactics, and scholarship. Those would, as far as I can tell, take care of your Nth lore requirements (since tactics is a soft requirement). You'd then also need to train performance, which will train as primary, but not count towards your Nth lores, as it's a hard req. Once Bardic Lore is finalized, you'll need that, too. Since that's our unique guild skill, it'll train as primary, but also not count towards Nth.

-Broichan Leshyahen

> hum tuneless
You hum a tuneless tune.

>>Bye vocals...

Look on the bright side. That will red bull that fuels your grandfathered way to a new 1st lore.

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but Tactics has a higher req than our 3rd Lore req, and since Tactics is a soft req, it will be higher than the 3rd Lore req for everyone. So why even bother having a 3rd Lore req?

>>So why even bother having a 3rd Lore req?

Because you might want to train it hard enough to make it your 2nd or 1st lore req, in which case you'll need a 3rd lore req, heh.

I wish I had the notes from the Bard Guild skill survey I asked about a few months ago, but that's on another computer. IIRC, it wasn't unusual for people to have five of their top six lore skills as the various music and instrument skills. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I think at least four of the six was pretty standard. I'll check when I switch computers, so I apologize if this was wrong.

I am trying to figure out if I just am unlucky in how the lore skills work out, or if this is a common situation.

Musical Theory will become Bardic Lore and have its own requirement, at some point, so I put that aside.

Our instrument skills will collapse into Performance, which will have its own hard requirement outside of the other lore skills.

At least for me, my top five lore skills are being taken away from meeting the new Lore skill requirements. The thought is that we're going from training six out of the nine lore skills to only five out of the ten (when you see Bardic Lore and Performance as replacements of older skill requirements), after the reshuffling of skills.

So we'd need three skills taken from a list of Appraisal, Scholar, Tactics, and the 5 Mech Lores.

I'm excited about Tactics and suspect that won't be much of a problem, especially with it being grandfathered in somehow. I'm not concerned about it, it fits very thematically with our Guild, so that covers one of the three Lore Skills.

But of the two other new lore skill requirements, I only have one lore skill (Appraisal for me) meeting my current requirements. It will be fine, even under the new requirements it's ahead of my circle, but I'll have to see my 7th lore skill (Scholarship) grandfathered up to my circle. And so I am going from a situation in which my lore skills were significantly ahead of my circle (20 to 25 circles) to a situation in which one is slightly ahead (10 circles) and the other two are grandfathered at circle.

I don't fully understand how much of a boon the bonus pool full of my old instrument ranks will be in helping me adjust to the new training schedule. For me it's shifting from . . .

1- Be a bard.
2- Play music.
3- Play some more music.
4- Keep playing.
5- MUSIC!
6- Do something else. (Appraisal for me)

to

1- Be a bard.
2- Play music.
3- Do something else. (Appraisal, Scholarship, or a Craft)
4- Do something else. (Appraisal, Scholarship, or a Craft)
5- Fight smart!

It's great that we're shifting away from just being about music, but I'm worried that other than crafting the other two lore skills (Appraisal and Scholarship) aren't really robust/useful enough to keep training without it descending into being a total chore. I've read about Appraisal and Scholarship both becoming more important for crafting, but that sort of worries me that if I'm not into craft (and I'm on the fence right now) there's not a good way to train the rest of my new lore skill requirements.

~~
Lupdels

I'm surprised no one has really asked this (or if they did, your post was one I missed in my skimming of the folder), but..

>>Instrument playing will not teach Bardic Lore.

What will?

I feel like this has been talked about in the past, but I don't have the energy to fly through the folders looking for it. Is it going to be other bardic abilities like enchantes, bluffs, evokes, TBD?

Terra

>>Is it going to be other bardic abilities like enchantes, bluffs, evokes, TBD?

Basically, yep. The reason the Bardic Lore req may not happen at launch time is because we haven't gotten enough activities that train the skill.

--

"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.