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Meditations might be a way to give us barbs a smithing boost to stay ahead of the cruve.. meditate metal or some such
ODIN331
THEBANDOFBROTHERS
Re: Barb advantages
03/05/2008 09:27 AM CST
Why can't they just make Smithing a different skill entirely and classify it as a survival? If I remember correctly, there isn't a single guild that's survival tert. At the very least the could write it to where a Barb learns Smithing at a higher rate than all other lores. We're the weapon MASTERS of Elanthia, and we learn how to forge slower than everyone else?
CURINIR
Re: Barb advantages
03/05/2008 09:33 AM CST
>>If I remember correctly, there isn't a single guild that's survival tert.<<
Other than Paladins, Warrior Mages, and Clerics?
Other than Paladins, Warrior Mages, and Clerics?
CURINIR
THESAGEONE
DR-OOLAN
Re: Barb advantages
03/05/2008 10:07 PM CST
>>Why can't they just make Smithing a different skill entirely and classify it as a survival? If I remember correctly, there isn't a single guild that's survival tert. At the very least the could write it to where a Barb learns Smithing at a higher rate than all other lores. We're the weapon MASTERS of Elanthia, and we learn how to forge slower than everyone else?
We are making it a different skill entirely, just not a weapon or survival skill, sorry. There are quite a few survival tertiary guilds. In fact there is no skillset where there isn't at least 1 guild that has it tertiary and even if we made it a survival then there would be someone complaining about being worse at making weapons than Thieves and Rangers. We are trying to make this change as smooth as possible and impliment it in such a way as Barbarians will be impacted as little as possible but that said, the change will happen. There is absolutely no way in which we can rewrite the system without offending or ticking off someone, I positively guarantee you that. Even NOT rewriting the smithing system will cause groups of players to be upset, just different groups. Barbarians will still be the best at mundane combat, the best at using weapons and those that dedicate themselves to weapon smithing will still be able to remain among the best at it. What won't happen with the rewrite is that any guild will get a huge advantage in the system simply by typing join twice. Yes, that means traders and bards won't either. To be a master weapon smith will require time spent in the forges regardless of guild.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
We are making it a different skill entirely, just not a weapon or survival skill, sorry. There are quite a few survival tertiary guilds. In fact there is no skillset where there isn't at least 1 guild that has it tertiary and even if we made it a survival then there would be someone complaining about being worse at making weapons than Thieves and Rangers. We are trying to make this change as smooth as possible and impliment it in such a way as Barbarians will be impacted as little as possible but that said, the change will happen. There is absolutely no way in which we can rewrite the system without offending or ticking off someone, I positively guarantee you that. Even NOT rewriting the smithing system will cause groups of players to be upset, just different groups. Barbarians will still be the best at mundane combat, the best at using weapons and those that dedicate themselves to weapon smithing will still be able to remain among the best at it. What won't happen with the rewrite is that any guild will get a huge advantage in the system simply by typing join twice. Yes, that means traders and bards won't either. To be a master weapon smith will require time spent in the forges regardless of guild.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
RIDDLYN069
Re: Barb advantages
03/05/2008 10:36 PM CST
Sorry, I hate to disagree, but you are wrong there, they will have an advantage there, it falls under that whole lore primary thing. No matter what it's still Trader in forge for 3 hours, barbarians have to do it for 9 to keep up. The joys of skillset placement. It is what it is. No one ever answer my question on what do with mech lore if you don't want to move it to any of the new lore skills?
DR-OOLAN
Re: Barb advantages
03/05/2008 10:47 PM CST
>>Sorry, I hate to disagree, but you are wrong there, they will have an advantage there, it falls under that whole lore primary thing. No matter what it's still Trader in forge for 3 hours, barbarians have to do it for 9 to keep up. The joys of skillset placement. It is what it is.
There is a difference here though. With the current system, the formulas for success are actually very different for a barbarian than they are for any other guild when it comes to making a weapon. Even if a trader has the exact same weapon skills as a barbarian (which the trader learned at a tertiary rate and thus with much more effort) they will still do worse than a barbarian. THAT is the bonus I'm refering to. There will be no such bonus for any guilds built into the system itself when it is rewritten.
>>No one ever answer my question on what do with mech lore if you don't want to move it to any of the new lore skills?
As we haven't yet reached the point of deciding that, I don't see how anyone could answer it.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
There is a difference here though. With the current system, the formulas for success are actually very different for a barbarian than they are for any other guild when it comes to making a weapon. Even if a trader has the exact same weapon skills as a barbarian (which the trader learned at a tertiary rate and thus with much more effort) they will still do worse than a barbarian. THAT is the bonus I'm refering to. There will be no such bonus for any guilds built into the system itself when it is rewritten.
>>No one ever answer my question on what do with mech lore if you don't want to move it to any of the new lore skills?
As we haven't yet reached the point of deciding that, I don't see how anyone could answer it.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
RAIST
Re: Barb advantages
03/05/2008 11:19 PM CST
Actually, there was a suggestion here (Sorry I forget who) for a barbarian meditate that would allow us to forge better.
To flesh it out a little bit, is it in the realm of real possiblity (at least from your vantage) that we might be allowed an ability to enhance forging for one item every X amount of time?
We wouldn't be the best at forging all the time, but we could pound out a superior weapon every now and then.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
To flesh it out a little bit, is it in the realm of real possiblity (at least from your vantage) that we might be allowed an ability to enhance forging for one item every X amount of time?
We wouldn't be the best at forging all the time, but we could pound out a superior weapon every now and then.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
DR-OOLAN
Re: Barb advantages
03/05/2008 11:52 PM CST
>>Actually, there was a suggestion here (Sorry I forget who) for a barbarian meditate that would allow us to forge better.
>>To flesh it out a little bit, is it in the realm of real possiblity (at least from your vantage) that we might be allowed an ability to enhance forging for one item every X amount of time?
I would say that it is indeed in the theoretical realm of possibility. That isn't to say it will happen as we aren't even remotely close enough to having the system done enough to ponder such things to be honest. Let's get the actual system done and see how things go before we contemplate if anyone at all needs bonuses above and beyond their skills themselves.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
>>To flesh it out a little bit, is it in the realm of real possiblity (at least from your vantage) that we might be allowed an ability to enhance forging for one item every X amount of time?
I would say that it is indeed in the theoretical realm of possibility. That isn't to say it will happen as we aren't even remotely close enough to having the system done enough to ponder such things to be honest. Let's get the actual system done and see how things go before we contemplate if anyone at all needs bonuses above and beyond their skills themselves.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
DENZBRUJAH
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 04:53 AM CST
>>Barbarians will still be the best at mundane combat, the best at using weapons and those that dedicate themselves to weapon smithing will still be able to remain among the best at it.
Not trying to cause a conflict here but this statement always bothered me when people mention this
Barbs are the best at mundane combat and at using weapons merely by skillset placement not by some unseen bonus that allows us to be the best. It's no different than other guilds being the best in thier respective primary skillsets. If anyone dedicates themselves then rank for rank it's exactly the same.
I wish barbs had some true advantage that actually did give them the deciding is the world of combat. Personally I'd go for an ability akin to to paladins & shield, where through our mastery of combat we have learned to eek out that extra bit of oomph and use our weapons beyond the point of everyone else.
Denz
If you want to be okay with a weapon and use a bunch of magic too, be a Warrior Mage. If you want to own the world with your you weapon and take a good deal of what the world throws at you while laughing in the face of magic, be a Barbarian.
Not trying to cause a conflict here but this statement always bothered me when people mention this
Barbs are the best at mundane combat and at using weapons merely by skillset placement not by some unseen bonus that allows us to be the best. It's no different than other guilds being the best in thier respective primary skillsets. If anyone dedicates themselves then rank for rank it's exactly the same.
I wish barbs had some true advantage that actually did give them the deciding is the world of combat. Personally I'd go for an ability akin to to paladins & shield, where through our mastery of combat we have learned to eek out that extra bit of oomph and use our weapons beyond the point of everyone else.
Denz
If you want to be okay with a weapon and use a bunch of magic too, be a Warrior Mage. If you want to own the world with your you weapon and take a good deal of what the world throws at you while laughing in the face of magic, be a Barbarian.
TELGER
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 05:50 AM CST
>>I wish barbs had some true advantage that actually did give them the deciding is the world of combat. Personally I'd go for an ability akin to to paladins & shield, where through our mastery of combat we have learned to eek out that extra bit of oomph and use our weapons beyond the point of everyone else.
Like dual wielding HE/HB? Paladins don't have any special abilties with their shield beyond armworn large shields. We can see higher ranges of appraisal on shields, and it would certainly make sense for Barbs to see the same on weapons, but like you said it's mostly a matter of skillset placement.
~Thilan
Like dual wielding HE/HB? Paladins don't have any special abilties with their shield beyond armworn large shields. We can see higher ranges of appraisal on shields, and it would certainly make sense for Barbs to see the same on weapons, but like you said it's mostly a matter of skillset placement.
~Thilan
DIVINEWIND
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 05:55 AM CST
>>DR-OOLAN >>There is absolutely no way in which we can rewrite the system without offending or ticking off someone, I positively guarantee you that.
You just need to think outside the box. You guys have closed yourself off on this issue and have pretty much set in stone the general framework that includes Barbarians no longer being the best at forging and other Lore guilds being brought up to the same level as Barbarians.
>>DR-OOLAN >>Even NOT rewriting the smithing system will cause groups of players to be upset, just different groups.
Of course it will after you've promised them the ability to craft their own weapons as well as a Barbarian can.
>>DR-OOLAN >>Barbarians will still be the best at mundane combat, the best at using weapons and those that dedicate themselves to weapon smithing will still be able to remain among the best at it.
Being the best at mundane combat and the best at using weapons are pretty much the exact same thing. Remind me again what my primary skill set offers me besides choke and whirlwind? If we look at skill sets at their most basic level what can I do besides choke and whirlwind with a weapon that a Ranger cannot? In fact, if you want to look at actual weapon perks it would seem that Thieves have the best subset of actual abilities.
>>DR-OOLAN >>What won't happen with the rewrite is that any guild will get a huge advantage in the system simply by typing join twice.
This pretty much reinforces my first statement. I love how we won't get an advantage at forging for typing join twice yet most other guilds get some huge advantage for joining their guild. Sorry, the option to train 24 weapons doesn't count when most of them are about as useful as a third nipple (staff sling, slings, quaterstaff, light edge, light blunt, need I go on?)
>>To be a master weapon smith will require time spent in the forges regardless of guild.
I'm all for hard work paying off for each individual but what I think folks want is some kind of inherent perk, not necessarily "WE ARE THE BEST AND NOBODY CAN COME CLOSE" but something that sets us apart.
By the way, I don't forge and never have and even after this re-write never will. I just want to make sure my guild mates as well as my paladin friends get a fair shake.
-Galren Moonskin
Tusfaov calmly says, "Excellent. The inner fire burns bright within your chest, Galren. You have achieved a new level of enlightenment."
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
You just need to think outside the box. You guys have closed yourself off on this issue and have pretty much set in stone the general framework that includes Barbarians no longer being the best at forging and other Lore guilds being brought up to the same level as Barbarians.
>>DR-OOLAN >>Even NOT rewriting the smithing system will cause groups of players to be upset, just different groups.
Of course it will after you've promised them the ability to craft their own weapons as well as a Barbarian can.
>>DR-OOLAN >>Barbarians will still be the best at mundane combat, the best at using weapons and those that dedicate themselves to weapon smithing will still be able to remain among the best at it.
Being the best at mundane combat and the best at using weapons are pretty much the exact same thing. Remind me again what my primary skill set offers me besides choke and whirlwind? If we look at skill sets at their most basic level what can I do besides choke and whirlwind with a weapon that a Ranger cannot? In fact, if you want to look at actual weapon perks it would seem that Thieves have the best subset of actual abilities.
>>DR-OOLAN >>What won't happen with the rewrite is that any guild will get a huge advantage in the system simply by typing join twice.
This pretty much reinforces my first statement. I love how we won't get an advantage at forging for typing join twice yet most other guilds get some huge advantage for joining their guild. Sorry, the option to train 24 weapons doesn't count when most of them are about as useful as a third nipple (staff sling, slings, quaterstaff, light edge, light blunt, need I go on?)
>>To be a master weapon smith will require time spent in the forges regardless of guild.
I'm all for hard work paying off for each individual but what I think folks want is some kind of inherent perk, not necessarily "WE ARE THE BEST AND NOBODY CAN COME CLOSE" but something that sets us apart.
By the way, I don't forge and never have and even after this re-write never will. I just want to make sure my guild mates as well as my paladin friends get a fair shake.
-Galren Moonskin
Tusfaov calmly says, "Excellent. The inner fire burns bright within your chest, Galren. You have achieved a new level of enlightenment."
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
TYCH
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 06:37 AM CST
To be honest I really don't see me continuing with forging with Drevid. Not if I have to spend three times as much to get the same results. I'll make myself a bunch of weapons I use, vault them and be done.
I am just not really seeing any worthwhile benefit to being a barb anymore. Forging was it for me.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Venic smiles as he sticks his copper bead in one nostril, covers the other one, and exhales forcefully, shooting the bead directly at Drevid!
I am just not really seeing any worthwhile benefit to being a barb anymore. Forging was it for me.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Venic smiles as he sticks his copper bead in one nostril, covers the other one, and exhales forcefully, shooting the bead directly at Drevid!
TAGHZ
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 07:22 AM CST
My feelings exactly Drevid.
Order of events of Taghz's forging Timeline
Started forging when forging came out..
Weapon forging complete with grinding for the most part.
Armor forging complete besides fitting..
Began forging.
studied the mechanics
Tweak. Ok fine.
studied the mechanics.
Tweak x 12. ok what ever.
studied the mechanics
studied the mechanics
4 grinds on a greatsword as a Paladin. Forging mindset invigorated.
Mastered Forging...Forging Mindset improved..
Developed superior mix that created the beautiful extremely lightweight chain (hauberks, shirts, gloves, etc...) Forging mindset improved..
Forging system tweak on capped weights destroying niche market and diversity among forgers. Forging mindset damaged..
9 Grinds on a greatsword as a Paladin. Forging mindset improved...
Grind change...ok just my luck.
New system focus and explanation. All years of progress, plats invested, armor bonus going down the drain...Forging mindset destroyed...
Forging Retirement.
Crusader Taghz
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother...", William Shakespeare.
Order of events of Taghz's forging Timeline
Started forging when forging came out..
Weapon forging complete with grinding for the most part.
Armor forging complete besides fitting..
Began forging.
studied the mechanics
Tweak. Ok fine.
studied the mechanics.
Tweak x 12. ok what ever.
studied the mechanics
studied the mechanics
4 grinds on a greatsword as a Paladin. Forging mindset invigorated.
Mastered Forging...Forging Mindset improved..
Developed superior mix that created the beautiful extremely lightweight chain (hauberks, shirts, gloves, etc...) Forging mindset improved..
Forging system tweak on capped weights destroying niche market and diversity among forgers. Forging mindset damaged..
9 Grinds on a greatsword as a Paladin. Forging mindset improved...
Grind change...ok just my luck.
New system focus and explanation. All years of progress, plats invested, armor bonus going down the drain...Forging mindset destroyed...
Forging Retirement.
Crusader Taghz
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother...", William Shakespeare.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 09:13 AM CST
I'll wait and see what they do with Barbarians in the new system before I start worrying.
>>Remind me again what my primary skill set offers me besides choke and whirlwind?
Come on Galren, now you sound like a whining magic primary. We have the best non-stealth combat abilities in the game.
*******
Prime: Malkien
Prime: (Necromancer Bob- coming to DR in '08!)
TF: Ganymede
>>Remind me again what my primary skill set offers me besides choke and whirlwind?
Come on Galren, now you sound like a whining magic primary. We have the best non-stealth combat abilities in the game.
*******
Prime: Malkien
Prime: (Necromancer Bob- coming to DR in '08!)
TF: Ganymede
DIVINEWIND
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 09:51 AM CST
>>Come on Galren, now you sound like a whining magic primary. We have the best non-stealth combat abilities in the game.
Re-read what I posted. I'm not talking about our berserks and dances and such which boost combat ability.
I'm asking you what perk is there that is a direct function of being weapon primary.
Magic Primaries get faster mana regeneration compared to magic secondaries and tertiaries as well as many many more spells.
Survival Primaries have reduced requirements for certain things due to inherent survival bonuses - so a survival prime can swim/climb from Riverhaven to Rossman's with far less skill than a survival secondary or tertiary would need.
I won't really comment on Lore primaries. This whole skill set is receiving a lot of love soon. Armor is in need of serious love too - their reduced penalty to mixed armors isn't all that hot and the large arm worn shield usage is (IMHO) only slightly more useful than our choke or whirlwind.
Again, not really an uber complaint of doom in which I'll start waving the banner of injustice around. Just pointing out that our perks which are a direct function of being weapon primary are pretty sad and could use improvement.
-Galren Moonskin
Tusfaov calmly says, "Excellent. The inner fire burns bright within your chest, Galren. You have achieved a new level of enlightenment."
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
Re-read what I posted. I'm not talking about our berserks and dances and such which boost combat ability.
I'm asking you what perk is there that is a direct function of being weapon primary.
Magic Primaries get faster mana regeneration compared to magic secondaries and tertiaries as well as many many more spells.
Survival Primaries have reduced requirements for certain things due to inherent survival bonuses - so a survival prime can swim/climb from Riverhaven to Rossman's with far less skill than a survival secondary or tertiary would need.
I won't really comment on Lore primaries. This whole skill set is receiving a lot of love soon. Armor is in need of serious love too - their reduced penalty to mixed armors isn't all that hot and the large arm worn shield usage is (IMHO) only slightly more useful than our choke or whirlwind.
Again, not really an uber complaint of doom in which I'll start waving the banner of injustice around. Just pointing out that our perks which are a direct function of being weapon primary are pretty sad and could use improvement.
-Galren Moonskin
Tusfaov calmly says, "Excellent. The inner fire burns bright within your chest, Galren. You have achieved a new level of enlightenment."
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
GODKIN
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 12:58 PM CST
>Sorry, the option to train 24 weapons doesn't count when most of them are about as useful as a third nipple (staff sling, slings, quaterstaff, light edge, light blunt, need I go on?)
A superfluous nipple is a sign of virility. Thats why I train QS!
As for forging I think I will wait until I see what perks Barbarians get to forging before I dismiss the system.
The spark of truth can be very powerful in the methane filled bowels of ignorance.
A superfluous nipple is a sign of virility. Thats why I train QS!
As for forging I think I will wait until I see what perks Barbarians get to forging before I dismiss the system.
The spark of truth can be very powerful in the methane filled bowels of ignorance.
DIVINEWIND
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 01:08 PM CST
>>As for forging I think I will wait until I see what perks Barbarians get to forging before I dismiss the system.
Oh most certainly. I haven't dismissed this new and upcoming system, I am merely trying to point out that I can understand the frustration among many paladins and barbarians.
Regardless of how you look at it serious forging will no longer be a niche craft and essentially everyone is being reset to the beginning which pretty much dismisses the earlier work of many major forgers.
-Galren Moonskin
Tusfaov calmly says, "Excellent. The inner fire burns bright within your chest, Galren. You have achieved a new level of enlightenment."
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
Oh most certainly. I haven't dismissed this new and upcoming system, I am merely trying to point out that I can understand the frustration among many paladins and barbarians.
Regardless of how you look at it serious forging will no longer be a niche craft and essentially everyone is being reset to the beginning which pretty much dismisses the earlier work of many major forgers.
-Galren Moonskin
Tusfaov calmly says, "Excellent. The inner fire burns bright within your chest, Galren. You have achieved a new level of enlightenment."
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 01:13 PM CST
>>Regardless of how you look at it serious forging will no longer be a niche craft and essentially everyone is being reset to the beginning which pretty much dismisses the earlier work of many major forgers.
This is definitely a good point.
*******
Prime: Malkien
Prime: (Necromancer Bob- coming to DR in '08!)
TF: Ganymede
This is definitely a good point.
*******
Prime: Malkien
Prime: (Necromancer Bob- coming to DR in '08!)
TF: Ganymede
THESAGEONE
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 01:18 PM CST
I think that, even, with the changes that you'll find that there will only be a handful of people that really dedicate themselves to forging in a manner in which they'll produce superior wares anyhow. The system might be different in the future, but the process in which the weapons and armor are going to be available is probably going to be pretty similar to the way it is now. I think that they're will simply be far more low-end slightly better than store bought gear available than previously before.
You can still be one of the best forgers, but I cannot see the need for such exclusitvity. Forging, to me, never really seemed to fit the blood and guts mentality that I hear so often preached by barbarians when BMR discussions come up.
You might feel that barbarians are losing something with a new system, but doom and gloom predictions don't do much good, you'd really have to see the system first. Perhaps once a solid foundation for forging is completed with the new system, then other "bonuses" can be applied in the future.
You can still be one of the best forgers, but I cannot see the need for such exclusitvity. Forging, to me, never really seemed to fit the blood and guts mentality that I hear so often preached by barbarians when BMR discussions come up.
You might feel that barbarians are losing something with a new system, but doom and gloom predictions don't do much good, you'd really have to see the system first. Perhaps once a solid foundation for forging is completed with the new system, then other "bonuses" can be applied in the future.
JMF90
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 02:30 PM CST
>Regardless of how you look at it serious forging will no longer be a niche craft and essentially everyone is being reset to the beginning which pretty much dismisses the earlier work of many major forgers.
This is the main issue I have with the new system. It seems wrong that the expert forgers won't be rewarded for their previous time in the forge. It won't affect me, but it seems grossly unfair.
This is the main issue I have with the new system. It seems wrong that the expert forgers won't be rewarded for their previous time in the forge. It won't affect me, but it seems grossly unfair.
TYCH
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 03:18 PM CST
<<but it seems grossly unfair.
Yup
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Venic smiles as he sticks his copper bead in one nostril, covers the other one, and exhales forcefully, shooting the bead directly at Drevid!
Yup
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Venic smiles as he sticks his copper bead in one nostril, covers the other one, and exhales forcefully, shooting the bead directly at Drevid!
PENDUS
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 09:02 PM CST
I'm not going to dismiss it, but I'm really worried about it. I earned my Maker's Mark and with this change, lore primaries will have a distinct advantage to learning the skill and putting out better quality weapons.
GODKIN
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 09:51 PM CST
>You can still be one of the best forgers, but I cannot see the need for such exclusitvity. Forging, to me, never really seemed to fit the blood and guts mentality that I hear so often preached by barbarians when BMR discussions come up.
What better way to spill your opponents blood and guts than with a weapon you created?
Personally, I dislike about the new creation systems is that the trade skills are considered lore skills. Its like comparing the teaching of an apothecary to a blacksmith.
PS. Since forging requires a hammer, I think the medium blunt skill should be the main factor for forging or, in the least, forging should teach medium blunt (If I can juggle to learn perception or fold paper to learn mechlore, why not?
The spark of truth can be very powerful in the methane filled bowels of ignorance.
What better way to spill your opponents blood and guts than with a weapon you created?
Personally, I dislike about the new creation systems is that the trade skills are considered lore skills. Its like comparing the teaching of an apothecary to a blacksmith.
PS. Since forging requires a hammer, I think the medium blunt skill should be the main factor for forging or, in the least, forging should teach medium blunt (If I can juggle to learn perception or fold paper to learn mechlore, why not?
The spark of truth can be very powerful in the methane filled bowels of ignorance.
DR-OOLAN
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 10:33 PM CST
>>Regardless of how you look at it serious forging will no longer be a niche craft and essentially everyone is being reset to the beginning which pretty much dismisses the earlier work of many major forgers.
Actually, I'd argue that it will still be a niche craft as only those that choose smithing as their primary craft will likely get beyond the basics in it.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
Actually, I'd argue that it will still be a niche craft as only those that choose smithing as their primary craft will likely get beyond the basics in it.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
DR-OOLAN
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 10:40 PM CST
>Regardless of how you look at it serious forging will no longer be a niche craft and essentially everyone is being reset to the beginning which pretty much dismisses the earlier work of many major forgers.
>>This is the main issue I have with the new system. It seems wrong that the expert forgers won't be rewarded for their previous time in the forge. It won't affect me, but it seems grossly unfair.
No one is saying that expert forgers for certain won't be rewarded, nor that we are dismissing their work and efforts. What has been said is that the counter itself isn't going to be reliable enough to necessarily provide any tangible benefits that we can map out at this point in time and that grandfathering is unlikely at best. That doesn't mean that no efforts will be made to reward those currently at the top of the profession, but rather that we don't yet have a game plan for it and cannot promise any sort of rewards or benefits. There is a strong difference between saying it won't happen at all, we are dismissing them and saying we haven't yet found a fair and reliable method that is technically possible to make it happen. It is indeed possible that we won't be able to reward the current top smiths, I don't know yet what the final outcome will be.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
>>This is the main issue I have with the new system. It seems wrong that the expert forgers won't be rewarded for their previous time in the forge. It won't affect me, but it seems grossly unfair.
No one is saying that expert forgers for certain won't be rewarded, nor that we are dismissing their work and efforts. What has been said is that the counter itself isn't going to be reliable enough to necessarily provide any tangible benefits that we can map out at this point in time and that grandfathering is unlikely at best. That doesn't mean that no efforts will be made to reward those currently at the top of the profession, but rather that we don't yet have a game plan for it and cannot promise any sort of rewards or benefits. There is a strong difference between saying it won't happen at all, we are dismissing them and saying we haven't yet found a fair and reliable method that is technically possible to make it happen. It is indeed possible that we won't be able to reward the current top smiths, I don't know yet what the final outcome will be.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
TRITON1
Re: Barb advantages
03/06/2008 11:59 PM CST
After reading all these post I couldn?t help but speak up. I?ll try to keep this short and to the point.
So far, from what I have read that the GMs have said, there is not enough information to make too many conclusions about what is going to happen when Mech splits. So I?ll try and keep things generalized.
?I want as many people as possible to have fun.? - Ssra
This is one quote that struck me as interesting, more than likely because it was said by Ssra. But I also believe it more or less sums up most of the turmoil that some people are been expressing, and perhaps rightfully so.
It is my opinion that the exclusivity of smithing, in and of its self, was a perk of the system. This also implies a certain level of incongruity with Ssra' s quote. I do agree that this is a game, and everyone should be having fun. I do not agree with the implication that everyone should be having as much as possible, doing the same thing.
It is also struck me as a bit disconnected from DR and fantasy in general, when the imagery of Bard or a Moon mage pops in to my head, in the forge with sweat on their brow pounding out white hot steel. It also makes me wonder if I would roleplay my character and only buy forged weapons from Barbs because of the same reason I would only get an oil change at a garage. It?s just where you go when you need one.
I would also like to add how a lot of people have said things to the effect of, how this Mech split affect those who have dedicated them selves to the art of forging. I will also take it one step further and ask how this will affect the young up and comers like my self who have looked up to, and respect these guys for what they have done, and also the function of role models they have played in the community. I still remember buying my first forged scimitar off Drevid, many, many years ago and working for Drachus in the forge when he still played, making mixes to pay off the a Relayer Heavy Chain shirt he bought me.
In summation, think of the children! : P
-Gred
So far, from what I have read that the GMs have said, there is not enough information to make too many conclusions about what is going to happen when Mech splits. So I?ll try and keep things generalized.
?I want as many people as possible to have fun.? - Ssra
This is one quote that struck me as interesting, more than likely because it was said by Ssra. But I also believe it more or less sums up most of the turmoil that some people are been expressing, and perhaps rightfully so.
It is my opinion that the exclusivity of smithing, in and of its self, was a perk of the system. This also implies a certain level of incongruity with Ssra' s quote. I do agree that this is a game, and everyone should be having fun. I do not agree with the implication that everyone should be having as much as possible, doing the same thing.
It is also struck me as a bit disconnected from DR and fantasy in general, when the imagery of Bard or a Moon mage pops in to my head, in the forge with sweat on their brow pounding out white hot steel. It also makes me wonder if I would roleplay my character and only buy forged weapons from Barbs because of the same reason I would only get an oil change at a garage. It?s just where you go when you need one.
I would also like to add how a lot of people have said things to the effect of, how this Mech split affect those who have dedicated them selves to the art of forging. I will also take it one step further and ask how this will affect the young up and comers like my self who have looked up to, and respect these guys for what they have done, and also the function of role models they have played in the community. I still remember buying my first forged scimitar off Drevid, many, many years ago and working for Drachus in the forge when he still played, making mixes to pay off the a Relayer Heavy Chain shirt he bought me.
In summation, think of the children! : P
-Gred
DR-OOLAN
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 12:20 AM CST
>>It is my opinion that the exclusivity of smithing, in and of its self, was a perk of the system. This also implies a certain level of incongruity with Ssra' s quote. I do agree that this is a game, and everyone should be having fun. I do not agree with the implication that everyone should be having as much as possible, doing the same thing.
It was a feature of the system for certain. It was not however, a perk. The perk was held by the barbarians, since they not only had the easiest time of training the primary skills involved in the system but also had the difficulty reduced for them in the calculations.
>>It is also struck me as a bit disconnected from DR and fantasy in general, when the imagery of Bard or a Moon mage pops in to my head, in the forge with sweat on their brow pounding out white hot steel. It also makes me wonder if I would roleplay my character and only buy forged weapons from Barbs because of the same reason I would only get an oil change at a garage. It?s just where you go when you need one.
It is indeed disconnected from the past of DR, which is why it is called a change. However, if you actually look at other aspects of fantasy in other games, books and movies you can find examples of "mages" who did spend time and effort making weapons. No, it still wasn't the steriotype so much as the rarer exception, but it is hardly something that completely goes against everything fantasy based. When I think of a Gor'Tog my mind doesn't immediately snap to scholarly Moon Mage, but within DR it is a valid option. When I think Gnome or Halfling I don't immediately start to picture a berserking warrior with a greatsword slicing a Stone Guardian in half, yet again within DR it is a valid option.
>>I would also like to add how a lot of people have said things to the effect of, how this Mech split affect those who have dedicated them selves to the art of forging. I will also take it one step further and ask how this will affect the young up and comers like my self who have looked up to, and respect these guys for what they have done, and also the function of role models they have played in the community. I still remember buying my first forged scimitar off Drevid, many, many years ago and working for Drachus in the forge when he still played, making mixes to pay off the a Relayer Heavy Chain shirt he bought me.
There is some truth to this. The split could indeed affect some of those people. Especially if they decide they don't like the new direction and plan and decide to no longer take part in the system. But that doesn't mean other role models can't step up and take their places.
>>In summation, think of the children! : P
Actually, that is one of several reasons for the rewrite. As things stand right now it takes a significant bit of dedication in time, coins and combat skill to become a top level smith and until you do become such there is no market for your items because the player base as a whole is most concerned with appraisal and getting the best quality item they can. Since there are no small items which a younger smith can cap out early and thus compete at selling, they are only allowed to dabble as a general rule until they are completely on part with the other acknowledged masters. I'd like to see that change and have smaller, less intricate items which the younger folks can make and sell but which are rarely worth the time and effort of the older and more skilled smiths.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
It was a feature of the system for certain. It was not however, a perk. The perk was held by the barbarians, since they not only had the easiest time of training the primary skills involved in the system but also had the difficulty reduced for them in the calculations.
>>It is also struck me as a bit disconnected from DR and fantasy in general, when the imagery of Bard or a Moon mage pops in to my head, in the forge with sweat on their brow pounding out white hot steel. It also makes me wonder if I would roleplay my character and only buy forged weapons from Barbs because of the same reason I would only get an oil change at a garage. It?s just where you go when you need one.
It is indeed disconnected from the past of DR, which is why it is called a change. However, if you actually look at other aspects of fantasy in other games, books and movies you can find examples of "mages" who did spend time and effort making weapons. No, it still wasn't the steriotype so much as the rarer exception, but it is hardly something that completely goes against everything fantasy based. When I think of a Gor'Tog my mind doesn't immediately snap to scholarly Moon Mage, but within DR it is a valid option. When I think Gnome or Halfling I don't immediately start to picture a berserking warrior with a greatsword slicing a Stone Guardian in half, yet again within DR it is a valid option.
>>I would also like to add how a lot of people have said things to the effect of, how this Mech split affect those who have dedicated them selves to the art of forging. I will also take it one step further and ask how this will affect the young up and comers like my self who have looked up to, and respect these guys for what they have done, and also the function of role models they have played in the community. I still remember buying my first forged scimitar off Drevid, many, many years ago and working for Drachus in the forge when he still played, making mixes to pay off the a Relayer Heavy Chain shirt he bought me.
There is some truth to this. The split could indeed affect some of those people. Especially if they decide they don't like the new direction and plan and decide to no longer take part in the system. But that doesn't mean other role models can't step up and take their places.
>>In summation, think of the children! : P
Actually, that is one of several reasons for the rewrite. As things stand right now it takes a significant bit of dedication in time, coins and combat skill to become a top level smith and until you do become such there is no market for your items because the player base as a whole is most concerned with appraisal and getting the best quality item they can. Since there are no small items which a younger smith can cap out early and thus compete at selling, they are only allowed to dabble as a general rule until they are completely on part with the other acknowledged masters. I'd like to see that change and have smaller, less intricate items which the younger folks can make and sell but which are rarely worth the time and effort of the older and more skilled smiths.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
DR-OOLAN
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 12:38 AM CST
>>You just need to think outside the box. You guys have closed yourself off on this issue and have pretty much set in stone the general framework that includes Barbarians no longer being the best at forging and other Lore guilds being brought up to the same level as Barbarians.
That is one possible interpretation of the framework, yes. I'd rather say that it means Barbarians no longer having the system skewed entirely in their favor nearly to the exclusion of everyone else and making it a guild neutral system in which the Lore guilds can compete on a level field. Yes, I'm well aware of the fact that you won't learn a lore skill as fast as they will. Just as right now they can't learn the 2-4 weapon skills nearly as fast as you can. But they also won't be getting the skewed difficulty factors that currently makes weapon making a nearly barbarian only endeavor. Please keep in mind that anyone that wishes to be a master smith will have to choose it as their creation path. Not every non-barb in game will bother to do so. I'd wager a large percentage of the game won't even desire to choose any creation paths at all. If you end up going head to head against a Trader or Bard that chose an alternate creation path, they may learn the skill faster than you but due to the penalties associated with not having the path selected and their likely lack of techniques they may well find they need 10 times the ranks to make the same quality item. Barbarians WILL be able to compete in the new system, I promise.
>>Of course it will after you've promised them the ability to craft their own weapons as well as a Barbarian can.
That was promised long before I got involved. I can quite clearly recall the plans I had made as a player for how I was going to jump in day 1 of the new system, work to map it out same as most of the rest of you and see if I couldn't make my name as a master smith with my non-Barbarian PC. And that was back when Fial was the one in charge. Opening it up has been part of the plan for ages so yes at this point its been promised and doing nothing would simply shift the outrage from Barbarians to all of the non-Barbs that have busted their butts in the forge knowing they could never reach your level without the rewrite and there are plenty who have done just that.
>>Being the best at mundane combat and the best at using weapons are pretty much the exact same thing. Remind me again what my primary skill set offers me besides choke and whirlwind? If we look at skill sets at their most basic level what can I do besides choke and whirlwind with a weapon that a Ranger cannot? In fact, if you want to look at actual weapon perks it would seem that Thieves have the best subset of actual abilities.
Only problem with that line of logic is that there isn't a second weapons primary guild to compare against so you can tell what is a perk of being weapons primary and what is just a "guild thing". If Barbarians weren't weapons primary would they be able to dance Dragon? Berserk Nightmare? I certainly don't know. You want perks for being weapon primary? Fine, ask for them, you might get them. However, you've had fair warning that the creation systems will no longer be a direct perk for any guild.
>>I'm all for hard work paying off for each individual but what I think folks want is some kind of inherent perk, not necessarily "WE ARE THE BEST AND NOBODY CAN COME CLOSE" but something that sets us apart.
And it has been said in Dartenian's outline that there will likely be Barbarian weaponsmith only techniques to learn. Paladin only armorsmith techniques. There should still be things in there that will set you apart if you as a barbarian desire to be a weapon smith and put in the effort to work within the system.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
That is one possible interpretation of the framework, yes. I'd rather say that it means Barbarians no longer having the system skewed entirely in their favor nearly to the exclusion of everyone else and making it a guild neutral system in which the Lore guilds can compete on a level field. Yes, I'm well aware of the fact that you won't learn a lore skill as fast as they will. Just as right now they can't learn the 2-4 weapon skills nearly as fast as you can. But they also won't be getting the skewed difficulty factors that currently makes weapon making a nearly barbarian only endeavor. Please keep in mind that anyone that wishes to be a master smith will have to choose it as their creation path. Not every non-barb in game will bother to do so. I'd wager a large percentage of the game won't even desire to choose any creation paths at all. If you end up going head to head against a Trader or Bard that chose an alternate creation path, they may learn the skill faster than you but due to the penalties associated with not having the path selected and their likely lack of techniques they may well find they need 10 times the ranks to make the same quality item. Barbarians WILL be able to compete in the new system, I promise.
>>Of course it will after you've promised them the ability to craft their own weapons as well as a Barbarian can.
That was promised long before I got involved. I can quite clearly recall the plans I had made as a player for how I was going to jump in day 1 of the new system, work to map it out same as most of the rest of you and see if I couldn't make my name as a master smith with my non-Barbarian PC. And that was back when Fial was the one in charge. Opening it up has been part of the plan for ages so yes at this point its been promised and doing nothing would simply shift the outrage from Barbarians to all of the non-Barbs that have busted their butts in the forge knowing they could never reach your level without the rewrite and there are plenty who have done just that.
>>Being the best at mundane combat and the best at using weapons are pretty much the exact same thing. Remind me again what my primary skill set offers me besides choke and whirlwind? If we look at skill sets at their most basic level what can I do besides choke and whirlwind with a weapon that a Ranger cannot? In fact, if you want to look at actual weapon perks it would seem that Thieves have the best subset of actual abilities.
Only problem with that line of logic is that there isn't a second weapons primary guild to compare against so you can tell what is a perk of being weapons primary and what is just a "guild thing". If Barbarians weren't weapons primary would they be able to dance Dragon? Berserk Nightmare? I certainly don't know. You want perks for being weapon primary? Fine, ask for them, you might get them. However, you've had fair warning that the creation systems will no longer be a direct perk for any guild.
>>I'm all for hard work paying off for each individual but what I think folks want is some kind of inherent perk, not necessarily "WE ARE THE BEST AND NOBODY CAN COME CLOSE" but something that sets us apart.
And it has been said in Dartenian's outline that there will likely be Barbarian weaponsmith only techniques to learn. Paladin only armorsmith techniques. There should still be things in there that will set you apart if you as a barbarian desire to be a weapon smith and put in the effort to work within the system.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
TRITON1
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 02:31 AM CST
"It was a feature of the system for certain. It was not however, a perk. The perk was held by the barbarians, since they not only had the easiest time of training the primary skills involved in the system but also had the difficulty reduced for them in the calculations."
And I wouldn't expect this to really be a problem except for fact that most the other creations systems out there aren't as "cool" as forging or just don't exist at all for certain guilds. I could go further and say that the problem with weapon smithing wasn?t so much that Barbs got a guild specific boost, but the system was built (I?m guessing) around specifically Barb?s calculations. Which again wouldn't such huge problem if store bought weapons didn?t set as high of a forging expectation as they do.
"When I think Gnome or Halfling I don't immediately start to picture a berserking warrior with a greatsword slicing a Stone Guardian in half, yet again within DR it is a valid option."
I don't disagree with this, because you should have creative flexibility. But when I think Master smith, I don't immediately start to picture a Moon mage or a Bard. For the same reason you don't immediately start to picture the Gnome and Halfling. This is because Gor'togs and Dwarves are strong (they are big and go smash) and Halflings and Gnomes don't. The game reflects this observation with strength bonuses. This makes the Berserking Greatsword wielding warrior concept much easier to do as a Gor`tog.
"But that doesn't mean other role models can't step up and take their places."
If they leave because they want to, that?s one thing. It?s another if they leave because they took a backseat to a bard. And I?m sure a Bard wouldn?t want to take a back seat to a Barb at instrument crafting either.
"I'd like to see that change and have smaller, less intricate items which the younger folks can make and sell but which are rarely worth the time and effort of the older and more skilled smiths."
You have quite the work load right there. The largest obstacle I see here (based off what you said) in the new system is how to make something as an early smith, of worth and compete against store bought items. Like you said before, the player base as a whole is concerned with appraisal and getting the best quality item they can. That is the reality of the current market place. In what capacity do you see younger smiths contributing to the marketplace?
Thanks
-Gred
And I wouldn't expect this to really be a problem except for fact that most the other creations systems out there aren't as "cool" as forging or just don't exist at all for certain guilds. I could go further and say that the problem with weapon smithing wasn?t so much that Barbs got a guild specific boost, but the system was built (I?m guessing) around specifically Barb?s calculations. Which again wouldn't such huge problem if store bought weapons didn?t set as high of a forging expectation as they do.
"When I think Gnome or Halfling I don't immediately start to picture a berserking warrior with a greatsword slicing a Stone Guardian in half, yet again within DR it is a valid option."
I don't disagree with this, because you should have creative flexibility. But when I think Master smith, I don't immediately start to picture a Moon mage or a Bard. For the same reason you don't immediately start to picture the Gnome and Halfling. This is because Gor'togs and Dwarves are strong (they are big and go smash) and Halflings and Gnomes don't. The game reflects this observation with strength bonuses. This makes the Berserking Greatsword wielding warrior concept much easier to do as a Gor`tog.
"But that doesn't mean other role models can't step up and take their places."
If they leave because they want to, that?s one thing. It?s another if they leave because they took a backseat to a bard. And I?m sure a Bard wouldn?t want to take a back seat to a Barb at instrument crafting either.
"I'd like to see that change and have smaller, less intricate items which the younger folks can make and sell but which are rarely worth the time and effort of the older and more skilled smiths."
You have quite the work load right there. The largest obstacle I see here (based off what you said) in the new system is how to make something as an early smith, of worth and compete against store bought items. Like you said before, the player base as a whole is concerned with appraisal and getting the best quality item they can. That is the reality of the current market place. In what capacity do you see younger smiths contributing to the marketplace?
Thanks
-Gred
NEELD
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 08:25 AM CST
The funny thing is that anyone can forge armor as well as a paladin under the current system. There is no perk or advantage to the paladin guild under the current system, except that paladins learn armor faster.
That being said, I think the lore skillset needs love and I do not mind smithing moving to more lore-centric. My comments are:
1. I firmly believe that the use of a weapon/armor needs to be included in the equation. Presently, mech lore accounts for 10% of your forging factor with the use component being 90%. Even a flip of the percentages would recognize the use aspect and make using the weapon/armor meaningful.
2. There has been much discussion about how to reward exceptions smiths under the current system, the majority of which surrounds the "fairness" of such a system. I can not envision anything that will be fair about rewarding characters for hard work, so I do not believe that can be your focus. My opinion is obviously biased, but I believe there is merit to simply saying "These smiths have devoted so much time to the craft that they are entitled to this reward, regardless of the fairness to others."
3. I believe the system should be as complicated or more so than it is currently. The worst possible end state (IMO) would be (i) have xxx mech lore ranks, (ii) convert all ML to "metal smithing", (iii) earn a "mold" because you are 50th circle, (iv) buy pre-made mix at supply store and (v) pound capped item. The complexity of mixing distinquishes novice smiths from expert smiths IMO, and I think that aspect should remain.
Anyway, just a summary of my thoughts. Good luck Oolan.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
That being said, I think the lore skillset needs love and I do not mind smithing moving to more lore-centric. My comments are:
1. I firmly believe that the use of a weapon/armor needs to be included in the equation. Presently, mech lore accounts for 10% of your forging factor with the use component being 90%. Even a flip of the percentages would recognize the use aspect and make using the weapon/armor meaningful.
2. There has been much discussion about how to reward exceptions smiths under the current system, the majority of which surrounds the "fairness" of such a system. I can not envision anything that will be fair about rewarding characters for hard work, so I do not believe that can be your focus. My opinion is obviously biased, but I believe there is merit to simply saying "These smiths have devoted so much time to the craft that they are entitled to this reward, regardless of the fairness to others."
3. I believe the system should be as complicated or more so than it is currently. The worst possible end state (IMO) would be (i) have xxx mech lore ranks, (ii) convert all ML to "metal smithing", (iii) earn a "mold" because you are 50th circle, (iv) buy pre-made mix at supply store and (v) pound capped item. The complexity of mixing distinquishes novice smiths from expert smiths IMO, and I think that aspect should remain.
Anyway, just a summary of my thoughts. Good luck Oolan.
Madigan
True heroism is remarkably sober, very undramatic. It is not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost, but the urge to serve others at whatever cost.
Arthur Ashe
RAIST
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 02:41 PM CST
Keeping in mind that I do not forge (well I dabble), I would very much like to echo Madigan.
I've played a number of other games, of which DAOC comes to mind. Please, please, please, I beg you, don't just make a system where you pound 99 widgets out, gain a level in x, then pound 99 large widgets out, etc. etc.
One of the greatest things I felt about the forging system was that it was a puzzle. You couldn't script your way to the top, you had to figure it out. It kept me constantly there ATK, trying to figure out why this did what. Pretty much no other lore skill I've tried does that. Sure, I'm ATK, but I'd be lying if I said I was doing anything more than watching for script checks or something more interesting to do. You can only fold paper so much before you want to pull someone's head off with your teeth.
Please don't dumb the system down too much.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
I've played a number of other games, of which DAOC comes to mind. Please, please, please, I beg you, don't just make a system where you pound 99 widgets out, gain a level in x, then pound 99 large widgets out, etc. etc.
One of the greatest things I felt about the forging system was that it was a puzzle. You couldn't script your way to the top, you had to figure it out. It kept me constantly there ATK, trying to figure out why this did what. Pretty much no other lore skill I've tried does that. Sure, I'm ATK, but I'd be lying if I said I was doing anything more than watching for script checks or something more interesting to do. You can only fold paper so much before you want to pull someone's head off with your teeth.
Please don't dumb the system down too much.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
TYCH
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 02:47 PM CST
<<I've played a number of other games, of which DAOC comes to mind. Please, please, please, I beg you, don't just make a system where you pound 99 widgets out, gain a level in x, then pound 99 large widgets out, etc. etc.
Ugh no kidding. I play DAoC for 2 years. I hated it. I used this program called Auto-Click and just watched TV while it clicked away. One of the stupidest things I've ever done for a game. Never again.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Venic smiles as he sticks his copper bead in one nostril, covers the other one, and exhales forcefully, shooting the bead directly at Drevid!
Ugh no kidding. I play DAoC for 2 years. I hated it. I used this program called Auto-Click and just watched TV while it clicked away. One of the stupidest things I've ever done for a game. Never again.
Drevid
http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Barbarian.html
Cylons... why debugging matters.
Venic smiles as he sticks his copper bead in one nostril, covers the other one, and exhales forcefully, shooting the bead directly at Drevid!
ODIN331
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 03:24 PM CST
To many of us barbs, it looks like the best perk to being in the most neglected guild shall be torn away making us simply 'the most neglected guild'. Do me a favor and pull it away with a clean jerk like one would a painful scab.
Xixist
Xixist
SHYGOAT
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 03:29 PM CST
>used this program called Auto-Click
I'll have to remember to get that for Hero's Journey, assuming it'll still run on whatever Windows version is available in 2019.
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
I'll have to remember to get that for Hero's Journey, assuming it'll still run on whatever Windows version is available in 2019.
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
THESAGEONE
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 03:45 PM CST
Heh, auto click....I auto clicked myself to the second Master Weaponsmith on the Naru server in Starwars Galaxies years ago ^_^
Pretty lame that you can make a whole game play itself, because a system is so lack luster and missing a ton of innovation.
Pretty lame that you can make a whole game play itself, because a system is so lack luster and missing a ton of innovation.
SHYGOAT
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 04:03 PM CST
>Pretty lame that you can make a whole game play itself, because a system is so lack luster and missing a ton of innovation.
And we've come full circle back to DragonRealms.
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
And we've come full circle back to DragonRealms.
Aveda's Field Guide- http://dr.aveda.googlepages.com
RIDDLYN069
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 04:04 PM CST
Question Oolan, you say you want it to be so everyone can get involved. There are people out there who can make better the store quality weapons and armor that aren't quite capped. They don't sell because people prefer to have the best. Changing the system won't really change anyone's mind. Why have average when the best isn't that expensive to begin with? Forged weapon on average sell from 10-100pk with most being in the 10-30 plat range. Now you want to make the system so that people can't capped items quicker. Umm most trader's I know tend to sell more weapons and armor than anything else. Now they can make there own weapons or armor, in some cases both. Yes they can only specialize in one but then the get the other secondary. So let me think if I'm a trader and I can make and cap my own weapons or armor. Not only that but I can do it much faster and it's cheaper for me to make it myself. How does a paladin or barbarian compete? Unless the pattern's offer something different other than how it looks who cares whether my capped broadsword looks pretty or not that's what alteration's are for.
THESAGEONE
Re: Barb advantages
03/07/2008 04:05 PM CST
>And we've come full circle back to DragonRealms.
I happen to think the system put forth for the Dragonrealms games are quite innovative.
And for those that write full function scripts it actually take a lot of work compared to having a program record your mouse clicks.
And at least DR regulates their scripting in prime and plat.
I happen to think the system put forth for the Dragonrealms games are quite innovative.
And for those that write full function scripts it actually take a lot of work compared to having a program record your mouse clicks.
And at least DR regulates their scripting in prime and plat.
