>>The time Barbarians spend not training magic skills is spent training not-magic skills instead. The bits just go somewhere else. The largest variability of TDPs instead comes from training style, i.e. power circler vs. jack of all trades, not guild based skillset designations or restrictions.

Were that this was true. The primary hangup in the whole magic vs. not magic debacle is that magic is trained 3-4 skills at a time, like combat, without the inherent dangers of combat. In fact, I can keep more skills locked on my Moon Mage, including all five current magic skills, than I can on my Barbarian. In or out of combat (yes, I can lock TM outside of combat and, no, it doesn't involve mech abuse).

I'm glad Armifer was willing to acknowledge that the perceived gap is a real gap in many cases. Just because some Barbarians have 2000 ranks per circle doesn't mean they should have to in order to remain TDP-competitive.

>>Another way that it may seem like Barbarians are on the short end of the stick TDP-wise is that they typically are several circles lower than other hunters in a given area because of their high weapon requirements. This means they'll typically have less TDPs compared to those other hunters because circling provides the lion-share of TDPs, and not that they earn less because of the inability to earn magic skill ranks.

I've found that my magic skills started being the primary provider of TDPs after 600 ranks (3 TDPs per rank with 30-40 ranks required per circle quickly eclipses what you get from circling). I hit 600 ranks with most of my caster before I got close to 100th.

Barbarians don't hit the 600 range of skills until after 100th. Plus they can't work any of the skills likely to be there outside of combat.

So yes, Barbarians are on relatively even footing compared to everyone else...when you ignore circles and overall ranks accumulated. i.e. any legitimate frame of reference.

>>Do us Barbarians then get an adjusted amount of TDP's to compensate for these potential magic ranks and TDP's we miss out on?<<

Fortissabrok:

No. And we don't miss out on any tdp's. I understand that training in 5 magical skills is closed to us except by listening to classes. I also understand that because of our higher weapons requirements, barbarians tend to be at lower circles than other guilds hunting in the same area. However, let me point some things out.

Magic Primary guilds (Moonies, Warmies, and Clerics) have 5 skills that learn at a primary rate. That's it. Just 5. At 150th circle, the ranks required in their primary skills are as follows:

Clerics: 850 Harness, 3760 in other magics

Moonies: 850 Power Perceive, 3760 in other magics

Warmies: 730 TM, 3880 in other magics

A Barbarian in their primary skills require:

2820 in 5 different weapons
650 in Parry
520 in Multi Opponent

Grande Total? 3990 ranks required in primary skills.

Having trained 2 barbarians from 0 to 100th+, bought one 150th barbarian, and trained 2 more to 30+ (currently still playing a 150th TF barb, and a 30+ prime barb), as well as playing 2 warmages to 150th, 1 moonie to 150th, etc, etc.

Barbarians do not miss out on tdp's compared to those guilds that have access to and can train those skills.

Why? Several reasons.

Barbarians are more combat oriented than all other guilds. Barbarians can train more combat skills at a better learning rate (all skills secondary or better) than any other guild. 25 skills are in our primary skillset. 21 skills are secondary (13 survivals and 8 armor). Barbarian lore requirements are virtually non-existent.

Not every barbarian will train all skills in their primary or secondary skillsets. I get that. But, there are very few who will train just the minimum required to circle, either. Yes, the road to higher circles is more dangerous than other guilds because of the extreme combat related requirements, but training those skills results in quite a few tdp's gained which translates into stats gained.

Take a look at the following link:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en#gid=0

I can't remember who it is that's been compiling that list, but it makes for some interesting data analysis if you'd like to sort through it. Yes, most, but not all of my characters are listed there, though I haven't updated them in quite some time.




________________________________________

Clerics are on the sectual radar.

Just to be clear - I didn't do it. Not sure who did, but it wasn't me.

- GM Raesh

>when you ignore circles and overall ranks accumulated. i.e. any legitimate frame of reference.

The only "legitimate" frame of reference is time spent training.

~ Kougen

Also, you don't need TDPs from magic ranks to hit 99 in all stats.

Full agreement with Vinjince.

Dead horse.

At bare minimums with a few exceptions, a barbarian would look something like this:

Your circle: 150
Total ranks in weapons: 4060
Total ranks in armor: 1440
Total ranks in magic: 0
Total ranks in survival: 3090
Total ranks in lore: 506
Total ranks gained: 9096
Total TDPs gained from ranks: 12828

That's with Shield, Parry, Evasion, and a single armor all at the same rank needed for 150th circle in Parry, otherwise it's ridiculous to assume a 150th level barbarian is going to have only 20 ranks in shield.

a warmage would look something like this:

Your circle: 150
Total ranks in weapons: 2265
Total ranks in armor: 1040
Total ranks in magic: 4610
Total ranks in survival: 1670
Total ranks in lore: 1350
Total ranks gained: 10935
Total TDPs gained from ranks: 17215

Same rules regarding Shield, Parry, Evasion, and a single armor.

I think it's interesting that the "tdp gap" is about 4500 tdp's, however I don't know any barbarians that train only 1 armor, 4 weapons, and survivals to bare minimums.

Taking a look at the tdp's from some of the 150th circle characters the following numbers apply:

Total TDP's for 3 150th warmies:

69481
51111
63721

184313

Total TDP's for 3 150th barbs:

70955
61878
49320

182153

Difference = 2160 tdp's in favor of the warmages. Interesting to note is the fact that the barb with the lowest tdp totals is one that I own and haven't played in years. Had I continued to play him, the numbers would most definitely be in favor of the barbarians.

Going strictly off of minimum circling requirements with the above mentioned adjustments, warmies win. Given the way barbarians actually play and train? I'd have to say at the very least it's a tie.






________________________________________

Clerics are on the sectual radar.

Just to be clear - I didn't do it. Not sure who did, but it wasn't me.

- GM Raesh

This requires more data considering "150th circle" encompasses everything 150+. Were all characters exactly 150th or some well over those req's?

Wow, that didn't come out the way it looked prior to posting. Sorry.


________________________________________

Clerics are on the sectual radar.

Just to be clear - I didn't do it. Not sure who did, but it wasn't me.

- GM Raesh

DGUTHRIE2, where did you get that data? If it was on the Stat comparison list that Mazrian? put together you would have to exclude duplicate entries of the same character otherwise it would be scewed by that one character. Which that list doesn't do and reports false readings.


Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Codiax