I just rolled out a selection of updates to how the Teaching system works. This is live in all instances and includes:

1) Teaching in Combat has been overhauled. Anyone can now teach the following skills in combat: All weapon skills, all armor skills, targetted magic, debilitation, warding, evasion, and tactics. In addition Barbarians, Paladins and Thieves can teach their respective guild skills in combat. The rate of learning will depend on the lore skill set placement of the teacher (ie: Empaths/Traders/Bards can teach in combat far better than Barbarians and Rangers).

2) Barbarians can now only teach & listen to other Barbarians for the following skills: Inner Fire, Augmentation, Debilitation and Warding.

3) Thieves can now only teach & learn from other Thieves for the following skills: Inner Magic, Augmentation, Debilitation and Utility.

4) Barbarians, Thieves and Commoners cannot teach or listen to magic skills they cannot utilize.

5) Visibility checks have been revisited, particularly with respect to invisibility. The following skills do not require the teacher to be visible: Perception, Stealth, Thievery, Backstab, Scouting.

6) How Charisma influences teaching has been revamped. It is now a linear function instead of a LN mechanic, and pure upside. The net result will be far more forgiving at low ranks but somewhat less effective at extreme ranks. Wisdom also plays a small role now.

7) How Intelligence influences listening has been revamped. It is now a linear function instead of a LN mechanic, and pure upside. The net result will be far more forgiving at low ranks but somewhat less effective at extreme ranks. Charisma also plays a small role now.

8) Faenella's Grace actually works now (There were no less than three separate bugs preventing it's proper function).

I also fixed a smattering of other minor bugs that I tripped across while in the code, but those should be functionally invisible.

Many thanks to Grejuva for wading into the death swamp that is Teaching code.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

This is a huge nerf to the bard guild. Bards have been able to teach everything in combat forever and this to me was part of the perks as to being in the bard guild. I know that I'll personally be letting my accounts expire after this. I can understand changing certain things for other guilds and letting them teach more, but bards should be able to retain their teaching skills.

>>4) Barbarians, Thieves and Commoners cannot teach or listen to magic skills they cannot utilize.

I can still listen to a TM class on my Thief. I'm not learning TM from it, and I don't think I'm learning any Scholarship either, but I can still listen.

>>3) Thieves can now only teach & learn from other Thieves for the following skills: Inner Magic, Augmentation, Debilitation and Utility.

:(

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“I’m sorry that your mystical, godlike powers do not instantly work as you would like them to.”

>>I can still listen to a TM class on my Thief. I'm not learning TM from it, and I don't think I'm learning any Scholarship either, but I can still listen.

I was trying not to out this for people who don't know about it. But, yes, that's intended. You should be learning Scholarship however.

There was also one other change I forgot to include in the notes. I removed the location based bonuses to Teaching. They were extremely outdated, mostly ineffective, and extremely random how they were applied.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

<<Traders and magic teaching easter egg.

Heh. That's humorous. Especially when taught Lunar Magic. Good to know they weren't forgotten.

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Bards can still teach anything. The change just made combat skills teachable in combat. It isn't a bard nerf at all.

- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -

Well, that's really rather unfortunate. At least Lore primaries got a bit of a nod with the combat teaching rates, I suppose.

Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor

So much for teaching a Commoner in preparation of being a Necromancer...at least as far as magic skills go.

Arcana appears to be the only magic skill I can teach my Commoner now.

(crossposted from me putting it in the wrong folder)




>>2) Barbarians can now only teach & listen to other Barbarians for the following skills: Inner Fire, Augmentation, Debilitation and Warding.


I'm curious here. Why? I understand the abilities function differently for different guilds, but sometimes realism or reason is sacrificed in exchange for playability. This, in my opinion, is excessive and completely unnecessary.

And, to clarify, this is coming from someone that has maybe listened to a couple debilitation/warding classes in the last near 150 circles. It is not a method I utilize for learning, but forcibly taking this option away seems a bit much.

I have to say, as a Bard this is a big disappointment. I understand the reasons, but still. Teaching in combat was one of those things that made me feel really... special and useful? And it felt appropriate to Bards, as the Lore primary "combat" guild. Are there any plans for future Bard-related combat teaching abilities?

On a different note, just out of curiosity, were there any changes to the "same race" or "same guild" bonuses to teaching? Or were those just a myth?

>>Is it really worth it?

I doubt we could realistically retain any customer who, though they weather 3.0 and 3.1, managed to pick this particular hill to die on.

Godspeed to your friends.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo

>>You trivialize the depth of the current issue, which I can understand. However, 3.0 was a necessary hill, a major hurdle towards the game moving forwards. This feels like someone was just sitting around and decided 'You know what? Let's make teaching suck more.'

I trivialize more out of humor than anything. The response to "slap in the face" and "my friends and their multiple accounts" is either stony silence or a poke to help moderate the mood.

I get it's a nerf, and that it's unpleasant and that people want to voice their disapproval to try and get it reversed. That's all fine. But the thread as a whole needs to be aware of its tone if it wants any success in doing it. Hysterical posts are very easy to ignore, posts like yours elicit longer responses.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo

double post, sorry.

This "spreading of knowledge" thing could lead to some interesting bard things that tie into Bardic Lore.

1) Give Bards a little bardic lore experience whenever teaching (treat it like a cyclic heh, refresh at 5 minutes)

2) If you can hook into the gweth ranges, give them bonuses that decay over time for traveling around to different provinces.


"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh

>>I trivialize more out of humor than anything. The response to "slap in the face" and "my friends and their multiple accounts" is either stony silence or a poke to help moderate the mood.

I want to just point out I agree with you there. This is being over emotionalized I agree. But, one concern I have, lore terts are already punished on their ability to teach via decreased learning rates of tert skills (resulting in lower scholarship ranks per time invested). Now scaling the effectiveness of those ranks seems a bit excessive.

For my personal stance: if this was an in character change based on reality, it seems like a combat rich guild like barbarians would find it much easier to focus on additional tasks, such as teaching, especially since all we can teach to other guilds are combat skills. But, let's say that is the case. That they have a harder time focusing on that tertiary skillset while engaging their primary and secondary ones actively.

So, by that paradigm, since our lore tert ranks are further weakened when teaching in combat, maybe those survival or armor tert guilds should see their defenses weakened in combat, whilst teaching? It would, following that reality, be much harder for them to focus on their tert skills while instructing students.

To clarify, I think that suggestion is ridiculous, but I think scaling effectiveness of ranks based on skillset is, as well. That whole step into reducing the effectiveness of ranks seems to be an awful slippery slope, and something that never needed to happen to begin with. Dual taxation at it's worst.



And, if anyone would be able, I would still like some clarification on how we're justifying forcing barbs and thieves to only learn debilitation and warding from their own guilds. I don't understand how anyone could have thought this would be a good idea, balance wise.

>You're a barbarian. Learning magic. So you can roar better.

Would it be better to say 'You're a cook. Learning electrical engineering. So you can make better chocolate'?

Yes, there ARE thermal transfer properties you could potentially use as a chocolate-maker, but they're obscure, arcane, and not particularly relevant.

>>This is the first time I can recall ranks actually counting for less.

A Paladin/Ranger/(Trader)'s Attunement is worth less than a Cleric/Moon Mage/Warrior Mage's Attunement. It literally does less per point based on skillset, and it has for a long time.

I sometimes contemplate if that's warranted but it certainly exists.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo

Are you talking based on mana regen? or is it actually worth, rank for rank, less in application via power perception and such? And if the only example that can be provided is something questionable in regards as to whether it should even exist, not a real strong case for double-penalizing tert skillsets in both learning rate of the rank, and again in rank application.

>>so you have a capenter, a plumber, an electrician and a bricklayer. the carpenter, plumber and electrician can all teach each other construction even though their jobs are vastly different, but the bricklayer can only learn from other bricklayers because he uses cement?

I don't want an electrician wiring my house who was trained by a bricklayer. I don't know about you.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

I don't want an electrician wiring my hose at all.

Oh, you said house? I thought you said hose. Nevermind.

ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate

Thealet is 100% correct. And its more than 1 customer. People spend years building characters. Stripping them of years of labor because a GM gets a wild hair is beyond ridiculous. You armifer, ARE WRONG.