<You have a violinist, a pianist, a flutist, and a painter. The violinist, pianist, and flutist can all teach other how to perfect their artistry even though there are significant differences in the way they produce it>

A pianist can't teach a violinist how to tune their strings, a flutist can't tell the pianist how hard or softly to hit their keys etc. If you can't teach the basics of how to do something, how can you teach the nuances of mastering the craft. You all can either help each other, or you can't...

>Turns out we don't have real world examples of teaching magic.

We have Penn and Teller. They are awesome at exposing secrets and even telling you how the trick was done. Just sayin'

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Your time for being forced PvP OPEN has ended. You have been set back to DON'T MUCK WITH ME UNLESS YOU TELL ME FIRST! and will not be able to change it for 24 hours.
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>>What is an "LN mechanic"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_logarithm

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

<<A pianist can't teach a violinist how to tune their strings, a flutist can't tell the pianist how hard or softly to hit their keys etc. If you can't teach the basics of how to do something, how can you teach the nuances of mastering the craft. You all can either help each other, or you can't...

1. That kind of stuff is what sorcerous backlash is meant to represent.
2. As someone who was a music major in university, I get a good chuckle out of your ignorance of how musical artistry can be taught between the disciplines despite not being to get into the technical minutiae of the instrument.

<<What is an "LN mechanic"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_logarithm

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>>Why should someone that can barely cast a basic healing spell be able to teach a grandmaster WM how to better cast ice patch?

>>They can't. Healing is based on the Utility skill. Ice Patch is based on the Debilitation skill.

He's clearly talking skill levels and mana type gaps. Sometimes I think GMs enjoy finding loopholes in arguments and calling it done rather than look at the validity of what people are saying and trying to address the actual point.

>>He's clearly talking skill levels and mana type gaps.

Given how the post started, I disagree. But to answer your interpretation:

The ability to teach with lower ranks in a skill was implemented many years ago as a solution to training low levels of teaching. Many guilds required several ranks of teaching and as a 1st circle (or even just low circle) character finding someone you could teach was nearly impossible, forcing you to sit in Teaching classes.

It's not terribly effective, but it does make some real life sense, particularly if you assume teaching is a two day dialog (They say teaching is the best way to learn afterall).

It's also not really needed any more since Scholarship was combined - but then you get into the messy area of teaching becomes a way to feel out someone's ranks, and then everyone starts having ignore teaching on by default and so forth.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

Still dodging the point, which is(ranks irrelevant)how is empathic debil is so similar to WM/cleric/MM/ranger/necromancer debil that they can teach each other but barbs are another thing altogether even though it does exactly the same thing(debilitates). The skill is either so general that it can crossover to different guilds or so specialized it should be guild only for everyone. At the very least should be a barb/thief/trader crossover.

wouldn't you burn wood to heat water to create steam?

> Still dodging the point, which is(ranks irrelevant)how is empathic debil is so similar to WM/cleric/MM/ranger/necromancer debil that they can teach each other but barbs are another thing altogether even though it does exactly the same thing(debilitates).

Because all mana manipulation has far more in common than not. When WMs and Clerics cast spells, they're mostly doing the same things; the differences between mana types are entirely captured within the Primary Magic skill. It's not just that Empathic debilitation is similar to WM debilitation---they're literally the same skill. This is in contrast to an NMU's debilitation, where they are doing something very different, even if the final goal is the same.

Maybe Barbarian and Thief augmentation and debilitation should be the same, though.

>>But not learning skinning in combat makes NO sense to me what so ever. You can learn by observation...it makes logical sense to me, especially when you watch the 'teaching' pulses where it says 'you demonstrate this' or you 'show them this'...

I'd assume that being able to skin while in combat is a playability/sanity issue, as opposed to a gateway to assuming that it's something that should be taught in mid-combat.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

It'd be interesting if DR had a paradigm where a single kill was a big deal. You take 20 minutes to kill a critter, then 10 to arrange and skin the corpse, and are rewarded appropriately for the time investment. A single skin and a single box is considered a decent haul from a hunting trip.

Alright. I've made two additional adjustments (Again, with thanks to Grejuva for rapid fire QCing).

Firstly - I've raised the limit for how much exp can be learned per pulse. This should offer some release at extreme levels of the system.

Secondly - Barbarians/Thieves can now learn Augmentation/Debilitation/Warding|Utility from any guild again. However, it is less efficient. (Barbarian + Barbarian = Good. Barbarian + Thief = Okay. Barbarian + Magic User = Poor).

... logically this means Barbarians/Thieves should be able to teach these skills again, but I, uh, forgot to code that whole making the other update. Gimmie a few minutes.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

Alright, the reverse should work now too.

To recap:

Commoners can only listen/teach Arcana.

Traders... let's not discuss them. They're sorta kinda being treated like magic users to save us headaches down the line.

Thieves/Barbs cannot TEACH Attunement, Target, Warding/Utility.

Thieves/Barbs cannot LEARN Attunement, Target, Warding/Utility.

Thieves can only teach/listen to Inner Magic with another Thief.

Barbarians can only teach/listen to Inner Fire with another Barbarian.

When Debilitation, Augmentation, and Warding/Utility are taught cross guild it is less efficient if you mix NMUs with MUs. Barb/Thief interactions are at the midpoint.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

Yay! Thanks for the reconsider!

Boo, here I was going to give major kudos for reinforcing the magic/supernatural split.

Guess it goes to show, no matter what you do, someone will be unhappy. :(

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One point of clarification might help with the teaching rates in combat thing. How do these rates compare with out-of-combat teaching? I mean, if everybody's teaching rate is penalized in combat compared to not-combat and it's just that the size of the penalty scales with skillset placement, then it's a bit silly that people are getting up in arms about it. The pleas for applying the concept across the board are a little off in this case...you'd need to suggest that weapon tertiaries should get a larger penalty than everyone else to using weapons outside of combat (whatever that would mean), or something.

I mean, how often are people even teaching in combat to begin with that these changes are such a monumentally big deal? Maybe it happens more than I realize?

Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor

> Firstly - I've raised the limit for how much exp can be learned per pulse. This should offer some release at extreme levels of the system.

I did some testing here. You might recall that I did some testing on exp per pulse after your first round of changes but before this one (posted in the Bard folders). In that test, I found that one pulse of teaching taught my student 2.21% of a rank of Outfitting regardless of whether my student and I had a Scholarship buff. One possible explanation for that was that I was hitting the limit of exp per pulse even without the buff.

I've just repeated the test. No relevant skills or stats have changed. I'm still teaching 2.21% per pulse regardless of whether I use a Scholarship buff or a Charisma buff.

If I was hitting the limit during the first test, you would expect me to be giving more exp per pulse now that you've raised the limit, but I'm not. If I'm not hitting the limit, then there's the question of why (capped, in sphere) Charisma and Scholarship buffs aren't improving my teaching.

Had a chance to observe another TM class on my Thief, and I am not gaining any Scholarship from it.

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“I’m sorry that your mystical, godlike powers do not instantly work as you would like them to.”

In light of the new teaching changes Empaths have lost their ability to teach First Aid in combat. For those of us who are combat-oriented teaching First Aid to a hunting partner was the only efficient way for an Empath to train the skill in combat. Many of us spend a great deal of our time hunting and eschew "guild-sitting." Teaching required us to find a complimentary skilled partner and share a hunting ground, making our reliance on others to train the skill comfortably fall in line with the very nature of it. For those who spend a majority of time out of combat, the quickest way to learn your First Aid is to take a series of wounds from patients until you have "bleeders" and then heal off all the other wounds except for those you plan to learn from. The aforementioned learning method is not recommended for use in combat. This leaves us with compendiums that teach terribly and require immense amounts of scholarship or suffer long round times, which while are fine out-of-combat, do not translate into combat well at all. No one would choose to sit in-combat saddled with a twenty to thirty second round time for barely a mindstate fraction, even on a hard requirement skill. Granted, the round times do lessen but given that I use a compendium with all the four hundred range charts I still have twenty-something round times with eight hundred and thirty (830) Scholarship. I'll need nine hundred and eighty (980) Scholarship to obtain a manageable ten second round time from the highest chart in that range, gaining clarity after one study. That is another very important point. These are twenty to thirty (or higher) round times per study until clarity is achieved which can vary if the Scholarship is not in the that golden "double the difficulty of the chart" range. This is not a viable method for First Aid training.

Combat Empaths have been encouraged recently with the introduction of the Absolution ritual. However, with the change to First Aid teaching we've taken a step backward. I propose that Empaths continue to be allowed to teach First Aid in combat or we be given a similarly efficient avenue for learning First Aid in combat. Necromancers have rituals that allow them to learn the First Aid skill off of corpses in combat and those rituals have been, to my understanding, made more learning efficient recently. I propose we be given a similar ability, like an analyze, that allows us to learn First Aid off of the wounds of what we are "hunting" or "dancing" with and it should scale accordingly with monster strength. It can be given a modest round time and function in a manner similarly to Skinning. Teaching or this new ability seem to be the most available fixes for this new concern.

I would like to also point out, as an aside, that once a modest amount of First Aid skill is achieved it offers no benefit. We can bandage the worst wounds the game has to offer and there's no point to train the skill further other than we are forced to do so because it is a hard requirement for our guild. It's disheartening to be forced out of combat for a skill that effectively amounts to a ball-and-chain around our necks, weighing us down with a learning paradigm that later ranks ensure sitting out of combat and bandaging ourselves over-and-over or not learning First Aid at all.

I'm looking forward to replies and suggestions. Thank you so much for reading.

>>Shihari: I propose that Empaths continue to be allowed to teach First Aid in combat or we be given a similarly efficient avenue for learning First Aid in combat.

High-level first aid training is really pet bleeders or bust, which is unfortunate. However, I feel like allowing Empaths to teach first aid during combat would really be more of a Band-Aid than a solution. (Furthermore, first aid needs to be viable for everyone and not just Empaths.)

The real problem is that first aid is not sufficiently developed as a skill. What it does is very niche (halt or slow the bleeding of external wounds), and it doesn't scale past a few hundred ranks.

This isn't the right thread for brainstorming ideas to expand first aid. I have some thoughts, and I will post them on the relevant board (Survival Skills - Staying Alive): http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/Survival%20Skills%20-%20Staying%20Alive/view


>>Volcanus: As an empath, wouldn't a pet bleeder work?

Pet bleeders work, but it isn't a good idea to hunt with them, and it's a really obnoxious, jarringly OOC concept that should die in a fire.

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