Hello. Was wondering if someone would be willing to clarify policy to me regarding graverobbing. I was under the understanding that there are mechanics to protect victims. Going to give an example here now. Was wondering if someone could explain to me how policy can protect someone from a circle 50 who goes around graverobbing. What I'm referring to is lets say you are of a lower circle. Basically with absolutely no way of getting an item(s) returned to you by way of violence. So does that mean that basically a circle 50 or whatever circle you wish to use, can just go around and steal whatever they wish from say circle 30's and below and not have to fear about any repurcussions. Just kind of curious of how policy is able to protect the victim here.

I am aware being bonded to someone who then can go and attempt to recover the item also. But what if the victim is not bonded? Let alone to a higher circle. Just kind of curious how anyone of lower circle could possibly feel safe. Or anyone who is not in a combat primary guild. If someone could just explain it to me I would appreciate it. It comes to mind that basically anyone of larger circle could basically just do whatever they wish without fear of repercussions. What could a circle 20 do to a circle 50? And if the only way for the item to be returned is if you then kill the thief. Well. That doesn't leave much hope in my mind. If I just go and grave rob someone then I can just sit there in front of the victim and mock them that I have their item without the victim even having a chance of being able to retrieve it.

Just trying to understand the policy. I have not been grave robbed personally but am just trying to understand what may lay ahead.

What was the purpose of bringing this mechanic into the game anyhow? What function does it serve other than to incite conflict? What is gained by allowing this act? Don't give me the whole RP line either. There are plenty of other ways to achieve that goal. I just don?t see this as necessary. I have plenty of things to be worried about IG. Getting ate by some of the horrendous monsters, having to repeat some not so exciting skills for long periods of time to advance in my guild, so on and so forth. The last thing I need or want is to have some jerk steal my things while I am working my way back to my grave or snatching something out of it while I am collecting it. Is there anyone that makes their IG living by grave robbing? Most cases of GR I have seen or even heard of involved someone big robbing someone small (insert Simpsons kid hollering Ha Ha here).
A bunch of 20th circles forming a posse and hunt down the 70th circle GR... possible I guess but figure the odds of recruiting that group. If a GR wants to feel the excitement of being chased then they should play tag.
I have only been playing a year so maybe one day I will have accomplished all of my IG goals and have nothing left but to torment other players by stealing their stuff out of their graves. I would definitely vote on making this go away.

---

A sand sprite howls in pain as its abdomen bursts open under the strength of an invisible blow. Body bag, anyone?

~Brother Etteyug

Actually I find myself agreeing with the GR complaint.

The whole idea of dieing, departing and suddenly POOF your stuff is deposited into a grave that you are required to return to, dig up, and repossess one at a time is sort of ludicrous.

Okay, in real life we just plain die. But shouldn't we do away with the whole grave-vulnerability mechanic period?

Why the hell is graverobbing such a vital mechanic to protect at all if the grave is magically undiggable by others for an extremely long period of time, magically pops one item out at a time if left undug by the victim, opens magically when dug out by the dearly departed, "...as if it were expecting him/her". etc, etc, etc. Its silly.

When someone dies, their items should be safe in their grave. They dig it open, they get stuff, they move on with life. The only grave robbers i EVER see are throw away snerts that grab the stuff, then mock the deader cuz noone knows who it really is. That ALWAYS pisses me off cuz its sooo not RP. Its suuuch a mechanics abuse. And the mechanical solutions thus far are only getting innocent peopel killed and pissed off.

Just make graverobbing undoable. It won't be any great loss to the game. Except this useless folder will be obsolete.

:oP Ragran
Board Troller

That was actually good advice for folks that don't know about search verb, etc.

<<1. If possible, get raised by a cleric. If this isn't possible, don't depart until you have a (long-lasting) warding glyph from a paladin.>>

I suppose without GRing there would be no use for Wards; so there would be some disruption. But still....

:oP Ragran

Thank you all for your posts.


ALLGRINNELL: I do find what you posted very helpful. As for me, the situation didn't happen to me directly. But I was made aware of a grave robbing situation and was wondering what my options would be in such a case. From what you stated, if someone searches the graverobber and has the item on them, will the stolen item be returned automatically? Because I thought the only way for an item to be returned would either be by the culprit returning it or thru violence.

Regarding mob mentality. From what I have understood of policy, as soon as a non-bonded person gets involved it immediately is a warnable offense by the GM's if this person attacks the grave robber. So if you are a circle 10 and get killed then grave robbed by a circle 50. There isn't too much anyone can do. If you ask for help from a circle 80 character that person then is breaking policy because they decided to help the victim in obtaining the item(s). Or if you take a group of circle whatevers and go after the grave robber. Again is not one breaking policy where the grave robber can then report those who are trying to do the right thing?

Another circumstance I thought about. What if I am somewhere hunting outside of town. Or anywhere for that matter. A person walks into where I'm hunting and just decides to start taking stuff. Whether it be thrown weapons which I find are easy targets, arrows, or other loot upon the ground. So now you have a circle 50 stealing in plain site from a circle 20 or whatever. As soon as the circle 20 goes to protect their belongings the circle 50 executes the circle 20. Now the circle 50 can grave rob also freely. Without fear of any repercusions. And there is nothing that circle 20 can do. And GM's won't do anything either cause it isn't against policy to steal correct? And when the circle 20 is victimized by the circle 50 and then killed. That ends the consent also. So in essence the policy is there to protect the circle 50 who is victimizing the lower circle character? Am I understanding this correctly?

I will not post any of my personal feelings. I am just attempting to understand what the policy is and how it works or does not work. Matter of opinion I imagine.

Sorry for the length.

P.S. Witholding my emotions from this thread has been difficult but didn't really want to get involved in any conflict. Just trying to understand what I have working against me basically.

8)

<<c. If you can't find the person, odds are they're either in hiding or in a safe room somewhere (or both). If they do these things, they'll trigger another GR mechanic which will drain their spirit until they either come out in the open, drop the item, or die. (News 2 48 in-game details this)>>

also another possibility is that if the person is in a guild restricted area, it can be concidered mechanics abuse.

ranger grave robs someone's quiver, go into ranger guild with avoids on, sits in non-combat room drops teh quiver and guards it. clear mech abuse and GM's will deal harshly with the person and/or retrive your item for you.

<<From what I have understood of policy, as soon as a non-bonded person gets involved it immediately is a warnable offense by the GM's if this person attacks the grave robber.>>

yes the grave robber might report if others get envolved and kill/attack/harm them, but there are spells and things people can do which (grant consent) are not actually attacking the person. Empath sleeping, palidan halt, brawl and grapple, warmage TC, ect.


Yamcer

---

"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

I think the best thing for you to do is actually read through the policy rather than trying to get it second-hand from people on the boards. Inevitably there will be several different interpretations offered here, and the only one which is "law" is what's written in the game policy. That said, I'll try to answer some more of your questions.

>>if someone searches the graverobber and has the item on them, will the stolen item be returned automatically? Because I thought the only way for an item to be returned would either be by the culprit returning it or thru violence.

While it is not 100% certain that you will get your item back immediately by searching, it is an option that often works. Violence isn't the only alternative.

>>If you ask for help from a circle 80 character that person then is breaking policy because they decided to help the victim in obtaining the item(s).

If the person helping you attacks the thief without consent, they are breaking policy. However, it's within policy for them to help in non-violent ways such as locating the thief with spells or familiars or restraining them with certain spells or grappling. This way they can often hold the person still for long enough that you'll be able to search them to get your item back.

>>What if I am somewhere hunting outside of town....

This situation has several complicated hypotheticals, so I'll try to break it down point by point.
thrown weapons
I'm pretty sure these are protected by mechanics from being immediately grabbed. I could be wrong, but I think you get a message like "you start to take a chain bola, but stop as you realize it isn't yours." This mechanic stays on the item more than long enough for the owner to pick it up in a normal combat situation.
loot
You are correct, stealing is not against policy, and if you leave things on the ground people can steal them without getting in trouble from the GMs. However, theft does grant consent to kill the thief. If you're 10th circle and the other person is 80th, then no, you probably don't have lots of options here. However, the likelyhood that any 80th circle character would find it worthwhile to steal loot in the kind of hunting area younger characters frequent is slim.
the circle 50 executes the circle 20
Depending on how the younger character is trying to "protect their belongings," this may or may not be against policy. If someone starts picking up your loot and you respond by telling them to stop and gathering up what's left, you're not giving them consent. If you choose to attack them, you're initiating violence and giving them permission to retaliate in kind.

I feel like theft of critter loot really isn't that big a deal. Yes, it sucks, but it's not much different from pickpocketting in terms of what you stand to lose. It can be easily replaced, unlike some items that get graverobbed.

>I'm pretty sure these are protected by mechanics from being immediately grabbed. I could be wrong, but I think you get a message like "you start to take a chain bola, but stop as you realize it isn't yours."<

We tested this. Seems like the thrown hammer could be picked up immediately if it missed the critter but if it hit there was an ownership delay in being able to pick it up.

For what it's worth.

---

A sand sprite howls in pain as its abdomen bursts open under the strength of an invisible blow. Body bag, anyone?

~Brother Etteyug

I believe that in cases where CONSENT has no hope of being fulfilled (this is not the same thing as choosing not to because you would rather not chance dying) you can use report. Be careful when you choose to report, however, because bringing in a GM means they examine the player logs and if you are seen as having started trouble the GM is likely to uphold a NO-GM ruling and the grave-robber gets to keep the spoils.


J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html

The search verb has issues, like Navak being able to resist people 30+ circles above him with the stats and skills well above his own.

Also seeing as how search returns items, it's an extremely poor solution if lots of things were graverobbed.

To me that indicates that if search is working as designed, it was designed very poorly and should be changed but isn't likely to happen and that's poor mechanics not policy.

In the end how any situation is handled depends upon who shows up to answer any reports/assists regardless of what policy states.

I am --- Navak

<<>>If you're level 20 and I come waltzing in a room and for whatever reason I kill you (99.95% chance its YOUR fault I killed you) then if I feel inclined to take some crappy item from your grave so be it.

<<>>This is a case of might makes right. Big fish eat the smaller fish. We are NOT all equal.

Then, policy shouldn't preclude me from hiring Galain (if he's so inclined to be hired), or anyone else to track you down, kill you, and get my item back.

_______
Llyldoryn

<<Then, policy shouldn't preclude me from hiring Galain (if he's so inclined to be hired), or anyone else to track you down, kill you, and get my item back. >>

By "hire" do you mean log in on your second account or IM your high level buddy asking him to bail you out of a situation you got yourself into?

Can't fight your own battles? You go get Galain, I'll snag Grungy, then while we are at it, I'll call my Dad and have him come beat up your Dad.

- Galren "Better than You" Moonskin

for me the crux is here

<<Besides, chances are you don't have anything I -really- want anyways. Unless its gweths, those I steal all the time cause those suckers are expensive.>>

after reading this thread i went looking at the kiddies around riverhaven that i might be able to kill. none of them had anything i wanted.

if you follow that list of ways to avoid graverobbing. which is fairly easy. there shouldnt be a problem.

the easiest things to lose are the thing you have in your hand when you die, me I always keep backups of things i put in my hands regularly. at least the things i will drop.

its a pretty big pain to GR, between that and the public outrage reaction to it, these are the reasons theres not a whole lot of problems with graverobbing realmwide...

ending with i personally dont have any problems with GRing, murder, theft, or most of the behavior generally disapporved of by the masses, habitual harassment is the only thing i frown at, basically there is no one right way to RP.


super secret grave robber Verbal

I think there should be a system in place that one can hire paladins, and paladins only to retrieve items. Or atleast contact the local guard office, and paladins can take on jobs from the guards. Make it more playable rather then, oh person A has consent because Person B killed them and took their item regardless of circle, guild, or skill. Make it a circle req for the paladin, so that no little 5th circle can go up to some 100th circle and get the item back, but make it within about 10 circles.

I just find the policy is in place, because there is nothing to make it more playable.


Arctuniol

In an open world who needs Windows or Gates.

>This is a case of might makes right. Big fish eat the smaller fish. We are NOT all equal.

Yup, and can even 'roll play' it. Peasant plowing field with ox. Knight and retinue wander by. Knight and company hungry. Take and roast ox. Peasant makes a fuss and gets killed too, if not eaten.

That's just the way of the world. Always has been, always will be. Ya got the power, you are right. Just like the golden rule, "He who has the gold, makes the rules."

At least in DR most folks who have the power will get bored before they walk you, so the most you have to loose is your stuff and a few ranks.

<<Take me: I can kill pretty much anyone in the game if they're caught unprepared.>>

"I" am the master of the cheap shot, sir.

step off.

:oP Ragran

Let's do away with the hiring and killing of people just create a mechanic to accuse a person of graverobbing and say they get their right hand chopped off for the first offense (unhealable by an empath) you could get it healed after say a week of login time that way there's a risk taken by the person doing the graverobbing. Second offense, chop both hands off (a month of login time). The hand being cut off would affect spell effectiveness, lockpicking, etc. You get the idea once they're caught by the guards they get your item back for you and make it very difficult for them to do it again for awhile. The "victim" would have to be able to give an accurate description of the stolen item to get it back. The guards could also "mark" a graverobber in a way that would let others know in the future they do graverob other folks. If one isn't able to get their item back by accusing consent is still active and the graverobber is fair game to be killed to get the item back. This is where the Paladin idea might come in to play. However, the penalty for false accusations is to have your own hand cut off (this does not include if the item is passed off to another character). I'd imagine it would go something like this:

Victim: accuse "graverobber" "item"

Once guards catch graverobber:
A few guards tackle "graverobber". As he's knocked unconscious by a solid punch to the jaw, one of the guards holds his hand out on a table as another cuts it off with his longsword and another cauterizes the wound with a hot poker. The last guard presses a hot brand against "graverobber's" forehead leaving a brand for all to know of their misdeeds. They chuckle to each as they walk away with "item" in hand.

Just an idea I'm sure most people will disagree with it. I just think this would be fun way of doing things in place of people having to kill each other as a first resort.

>>Oh yea...they have. Over and over.

I have found (And of course this won't apply to everyone) that if I simply stay in character that I generally don't get a warning for what I do. Now granted, if you play your character as a serial killer this probably won't apply...but for Teeklin, if a friend of his comes up and says, "Galren killed me and took my longbow" I will simply act IC and do what my character would do.

I've been a "champion" in many many graverobbing situations and thus far I've only gotten a warning once for my actions at trying to help a friend get an item back (and in that situation it was a husband and wife who stole a forester's bow, and I got one warning after feuding for 2 weeks and killing them like 12 times). In most other situations I will confront the graverobber, ask for the item back, and kill them and take it if they refuse. And if they report I simply say that I was acting in character and I generally don't get a warning. And the majority of the time they DONT report.

There are some snerts out there, but someone like Galren who is open about graverobbing isn't someone who will report...if you roleplay with a graverobber chances are that they will roleplay with you, and even if it comes to blows the GMs won't get called in. It's a shame that some people are so afraid of policy that they refuse to play their characters how they want.

We don't need a champion system, we just need to relax policy so that the champions aren't afraid to play their role.


-Teeklin

This post (including the signature) is in no way meant to offend anyone nor is it an attempt to troll or be "cute". Hopefully my opinions do not conflict with yours in any way.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

My problem with graverobbing is asymetrical risk. A graverobber might risk a death while a victim may risk an item that took hundreds of hours to attain and possibly be irreplacable. Graverobber needs to risk more in my opinion.

Ice Patch - Because bludgeoning immobile things to death is fun.

Lots more stuff coming 'Soon'!

http://www.zairius.com

Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius

>>Steal a gweth and get railed every day for a month until it's brought back. That sounds pretty fair to me.

Except for the whole skill check part. I can go find a goblin-like newb, steal all of his crap and he isn't able to touch me.

I am --- Navak