This is a policy folder, not a folder to lobby for the deconstruction of mechanics which seem to actually work in a desirable fashion.

Graverobbing is allowed by policy. In my opinion it shouldn't be, but it is. The nuts and bolts of the system one must deal with to attempt it, however, is not a policy matter.

<<On the other hand, the timer sucks 'cause if the dippity doo steals it and I go chase after him instead of staying at my grave site, the item disappears to the janitor if he logs out.>>

Actually, it disappears back to the place it was dropped, whether you're there or not. IIRC.

---

Marksman Ahmir Nam'al

"Is glas iad na cnoic i bhfad uainn."
-Distant hills look green.

<<<<Actually, it disappears back to the place it was dropped, whether you're there or not. IIRC.>>

Which is why the janitor gets it if I'm not there. Well, it might still be there when i get there or someone else might get it instead. Sorry if I'm being long-winded lately.>>

Which is why you have someone that you have 'consented' stand there, if they can, & wait for the item to reappear, if it does.

Yes, the GR policy is not that great but my preference is that we didnt have it allowed at all. The policy have having it fall under different time spans everytime is good, this way (lets us G as a example) G doesnt know if he has to stay 5 mins, 1 hr, or 5 hrs to beat the timer giving me the time to try to get the item back from him. If I dont care about the item then he has to spend the time looking over his shoulder wondering if I am going to come after him, worrying & waiting, hehheh.

Its not a great policy but better than what used to be, no policy but even better is not allowing it at all.

---

Obviously you were supposed to jab a pen into your monitor.
~~Marksman Ahmir Nam'al

What were the poll results on solomon's poll on this issue?

I like the current timer being random. However, with consent as it stands, this poses MAJOR problems if you log out and the item poofs.

BMs, I'm sorry to go into "what-ifs" here, but I feel that this instance is justified, as it HAS happened to me before.

I'll use myself as an example here.

I stole a nice mistwood longbow from a VERY high level ranger when he died in Geni's. Now, I ran for about an hour and a half and got disconnected. I log back in to find that the item is no longer on me, the ranger is pissed, and the item has poofed back only to have been picked up by the janitor or someone else before he got there again.

What does this mean? Namely, he's pissed. Secondly? He has permanent consent on me, and seeing as how I can't return his bow, I'm in a bad spot. Now I don't mind this, I like the running and evading and all that jazz, but I'd like a bit of treasure to go with it for my hard work. I'd like to see some sort of policy in place to protect when you randomly get disconnected, or perhaps a mechanic that if you log back in withing 5 minutes, you'll still have the item on you. Any thoughts?

-Sylv


Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039

Really like all of those ideas Dio

>Egads, I like what Diomid said. The apocalypse can't be far behind...

2 apocalypses. Theres good stuff in Dio's post.

>2) no skill or even circle checks. A throwaway 5th circle chara shouldn't be able to just dig a 90th circle ranger's grave as easily as they would another novice.

This is a very good point. It should be hard, but not impossible, otherwise its just doing away with GRing. Perhaps the RT/# of digs should scale with deaders concentration, or something. Also, give the GRer a bone in that his/her concentration affect the digging process.

>A really quick and sleazy fix for some of the worst violations, really, would be that a character can't grab anything from a grave of someone who could thump them while alive.

I disagree with this thought. Although it is usually a low level character, there are some well known higher level folks. I feel that limiting GRing to less than thump range effectively ends GRing, and thats a bit too over the top.

>3) knowing if someone really is a graverobber. Damaris knows; characters, particularly clerics and paladins, should be able to perc the chara and know they are a graverobber.

Good ideas. How about Rangers have the ability to catch a scent from the gravesite, and at differing levels of difficulty (based on scouting or something) catch the name, start to track, or whatever. Maybe Moon mages could perc the grave for similar type effects.

In order for this to be very valuable, or even usable, empty and open GRed graves would need to be flagged to stay open and not fade for a period of time, perhaps the same time as the item(s) cause spirit drain.

Bottom line, the SYSTEM should provide a fair way for the robbed to figure out who they are chasing for thier stuff. If thats by other character abilities (or thier own), then its an improvement.

I have no comment on the logout/disco problem, other than putting a very very very clear system message to the robbed that the item is back in thier grave. I had thought there was such a message already, but its been a while since any of my characters have been GRed.

>So because your a higher circle your grave is deeper? What's the logic behind this?

Same reason Queen Victoria's grave is harder to dig than Mr. Pauper Smith's. <shrug> Nah, its not 100% identical, but then the current grave system isn't all that sensible. More I just see no reason why not. Call it the mass of all those extra stats and fluff. Say characters get denser with age. There's nothing saying the grave of a higher circle character can't be harder to dig than a novice, either.

>They could graverob someone, as long as their victim wasn't more than 20 cicles over them.

I understand what you said, I don't like it. It would virtually eliminate GRing, and thats not good.

>Guess I just think that graverobbers should have something at risk

Consent for the items return is risk enough. Especially if its from some 100th barb. The only real problem is that its too easy to hand off and/or wait out the timer by jumping a ferry, ship or whatever.

>1) tracking. No way to know, for sure, and track graverobbers.

I completely agree. This is the number 1 request to 'fix' GRing. System generated messages, or some indication of who to chase would be ideal. Even better is solid, provable, consent friendly ways for characters to prove who took what.

The only wonky part is that clerics, paladins, and whoever else would be forced to go around percing everything that moves. My extension of your idea to let Rangers 'scout' the grave, as well as lengthening the grave timer make more sense to me .. YMMV.

<<These grave sites are just death locations where your body fell, these are not the final resting place massive secure cripts of someone. I have to agree with Strangeguard's player that I can't see the logic of this debate.

That's exactly what I was thinking. The graves in question are not full-blown graves with headstones and caskets-- it's a shallow hole, covered with dirt. The idea that somehow the dirt over a higher level character's remains/possessions would be harder to dig than that on a n00b's grave is just silly. I know a lot of people don't like graverobbing, but seriously, the reasoning for this is flimsy at best.

If you have something someone might consider worth graverobbing (or if you know you are the sort of person who might be an obvious target), make sure you get a paladin to ward you, or get raised. Or have someone guard your grave. There's no reason for mystically super-hard graves of dewm, when we already have anti-graverobbing mechanics in place. (And if you hunt in far-away areas, where there aren't many paladins or clerics around, at odd times of the night, it is highly unlikely throwaway novices will be around to swarm gleefully over your grave.)

--Mor

<<Sometimes things that make no sense are done to game playability reasons (i.e. disarm mark). The request for some sort of skill/circle check is to ensure the graverobber also is risking something when they graverob.

Graverobbers already risk something when they graverob. I've seen plenty of cases of graverobbing, in which the victim figured out who did it (either because someone was hidden in the room and saw who did it or because they came back in the middle of the graverobbery), and went after the graverobber. Add to that the mob reaction so typical in these cases (as well as the existing anti-GR mechanics I mentioned in my previous post) and it makes it a bit hard to take seriously this lobbying for increased risk under the guise of game playability. Let's be honest-- nobody who wants to see the skill/circle check enacted is looking to increase the risk of graverobbing. They're looking to make it pretty near impossible.

--Mor

>Graverobbers already risk something when they graverob.

What? the 20th circle they made in a few weeks?

>Let's be honest-- nobody who wants to see the skill/circle check enacted is looking to increase the risk of graverobbing.

Nope I want people to have to use their 'main' characters to graverob and not some low level alt.

'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido

Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius

"Let's be honest-- nobody who wants to see the skill/circle check enacted is looking to increase the risk of graverobbing. They're looking to make it pretty near impossible."

a) I wouldn't cry if GR went away. b) I think if there is going to be GR the victim should be able to easily identify who GR them, otherwise there is no challenge whatever.

Let's be honest- anybody who doesn't want a skill/circle check enacted just wants to be able to GR without any risk. My statement is about as balanced as yours.

<<So because your a higher circle your grave is deeper? What's the logic behind this?>>

Your ego is heavier so you sink deeper.


--Just a "clueless" Squire

Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.

Those are not departed graves J'lo. This argument is mentally tiring, I just can't wrap my mind around how, because your a higher circle, your grave would be harder to dig out, or impossible even.


Strangeguard Prayermaster

You gesture at a sand sprite.
Its head soars through the air as its neck is entirely destroyed!
A sand sprite slowly falls to the ground, moaning in despair, shuddering in pain before taking her last breath.

>On a side note the example that was made "Sometimes things that make no sense are done to game playability reasons (i.e. disarm mark)." I'd like some clarification on how placing a design on a box to show you what type of trap it is makes no sense.

Realistically trying to find the id of the trap should possibly sent the trap off as opposed to doodling a picture on the box. For playability the id step is safe while mark can detonate the box.

'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido

Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius

The "20th circle rule" isn't going to work. Right now I run two characters. A commoner who is my necromancer to be, and my graverobber. Some of you guys might say, "omg, the graverobber is a throwaway!!!1"

That's not how it works. I know other people who do it this way, but it's quite simple. I enjoy two different aspects of the game. The RPed graverobber, and the workaholic training character. I used to have both in one, my graverobber, but what I've found is that I CANNOT train him in public anymore. While this is exactly what I was looking for, it limits my circling ability. While my stealth skills have mood up quite well along with climbing and swimming, my core skills such as combats have gone right down the crapper. It is extraordinairely difficult to train skills for circling like this, and so I've given it up entirely. My character sits somewhere above 20th circle, and just trains what is necessary for him, which is how I basically envisioned it should be anyways. Introducing a circle req would completely ruin the graverobbing in the game. You cannot train combats when there is some 90th circle crazy after you with moon mages locating you every 5 minutes. It just doesn't work, therefore, as a fully RPed graverobber, the system would screw you. To a person who feels the need to harass and annoy, it wouldn't be so bad, because you can always log off to your main or because your character is high enough you can laugh at the other guy.

I DO like the idea of being able to track graverobbers down. The idea of having a cleric perceive a grave (I don't like Moonies perceiving graves, sry, but clerics need something to do, and this would promote guilds working together, ie. cleric perceives, has moonie locate, etc.) so you know who did it would be great. Heck, I'd even like to see a skill for making it difficult for the clerics to perceive, a skill check of some sort, maybe PP vs escaping? I know escaping is terrible now, but maybe there'll be some way to train it better in the future. The idea of having a ranger looking through it I like as well. The problem I have currently with rangers is that they basically can automatically teleport to you by having there companion find you then track the companion. I would be FULLY endorsing a system of tracking graverobbers IF we had ways to A. Lay traps. B. Throw you off C. They got rid of the automatic teleport. I think the whole idea of this brings up a great new opportunity for the career system. Imagine a career of being a bounty hunter for graverobbers? Only bounty hunters would have full time consent on GRers, and then the ideas of brand would be cool. Heck, they could even implement it with the newly designed traps skills that's supposed to be released or whatever for rangers. Imagine being able to track a graverobber down and toss a bola around his legs and drag him back to town. I think it would be immensely cool, especially with the thief disguise projects being worked on. What we have here is an amazing opportunity, and I really think we should embrace it instead of trying to pigeonhole graverobbing into a system that's just "broken" and the only fix being to remove it or make it impossible.

Whew, tangent there.

Again, I say, get rid of the poofing of items without say a 5 minute delay, just in case the guy got disconnected and is coming back.

Flavius, just wondering, where you hunt how often do level 5 characters freshly rolled up just hang out waiting for you to die and depart? Do they just sit in the hunting area going, "Yeah... I feel lucky." Doesn't happen. In all sincerity, most graverobbing of serious items occurs inside the clerics guild. It's the snatch and grab and then run for the hills method. I've tried waiting in hunting areas for people to die so I can grab their stuff. Here's what happens.

A. I die.
B. They notice me walking around, when they come back to life they notice I was the only person in there, their stuff is missing, and they track me down and ask to search me. Doesn't work.
C. As soon as they die, a cleric or paladin or moon mage comes around to foil my plans.
D. The most likely one... THEY DON'T DIE. It's nearly impossible to pull off unless you're a moon mage locating every person who dies just so you can run in and HOPE they don't get any help.

Bottom line, it's just not worth the effort.

The idea that GRing is riskless is absurd. The problem does come in when someone goes, omg, I'll GR and then give it to my other character! It's OOC, it's against Mechanics, and GMs will destroy you for it if they find out. If it happens, report it. I've had my stuff sacked after I've been caught GRing and died, ironic isn't it? I get GRed after GRing someone? lol, it happens. People have NO sympathy for graverobbers, and they shouldn't, so they just rifle through our stuff and take what they want as well. I've been at 0 favors and dead before, it's scary, don't tell me there's no risk involved.

I wouldn't mind the idea of a title on a Graverobber at all times. Heck, I'd relish the idea. Gotta build notoriety somehow.

I don't like the idea of EVERYONE having consent. Makes it overly hard. If you want everyone to have consent on me, let me hit no locate rooms or actually ride ferries and barges. The way it currently is, if everyone had consent, you'd be beyond done for, with NO chance for escape. Plus, if everyone has consent on me, I should have consent on them, the idea that people could witch hunt me and I couldn't strike back (not that it would do a ton of good against a large group of people) until they casted or advanced me is near sickening. As it is I've been having to lead people into Wir Dinegos when they try and get me in large groups. I don't report, but it's annoying when people who aren't involved and aren't Paladins try to play hero.

For once, I support Dio in a few ideas, but like I said, we've gotta make sure it's fair for the people who are actually RPing a graverobber. Heck, if it was made even, we might actually have more graverobbers who actually RP it well. With crap rules and contentions all we end up with are people who just want to grab with a throwaway and switch it to another character. If it's made more viable for the normal character, I think everyone would have more fun with the system.

-Sylv


Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039

"My character sits somewhere above 20th circle, and just trains what is necessary for him, which is how I basically envisioned it should be anyways. Introducing a circle req would completely ruin the graverobbing in the game"

I think a more accurate description is that a circle requirement would ruin your characters graverobbing- because your character which is say 20th circle, couldn't GR anyone more than 40th circle. So lets say that represents 50% of the population of DR- this would ruin GR for your character?

See, I- and probably a fair amount of DR see GR as a necessary evil filling the DR ecological niche similar to how mosquitos fill a niche. As a cleric, I have observed plenty of GR in the clerics guild- and not once have I observed any RP involved. Not once. Basically its grab as much as the person can before someone notices and run. If the person can be chased down and located, most times he doesn't have the stuff anymore. I have seen GR die who would just taunt that if they were killed the person would never get their stuff back. Many of them walk the road when they depart because they could care less about the character.

I really don't care how hard it is for you to develope your GR character. I am willing to accept that you have a legitimate RP character who RP's a grave robber. I will even try to accept that you do this for the fun of the chase, rather than simply to annoy characters who have been stolen from. Your character represents such a small minority that my character has never experienced it. So I don't see any reason to facilitate your choices.

All of Dio's suggestions were decent and would improve the game.

Flavius