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<<Introducing a circle req would completely ruin the graverobbing in the game.
I'm still not seeing a downside.
MIKEM1
FENILDUR
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/06/2005 02:57 PM CDT
>>Yup, too bad, so sad. I'm sure there will be a bunch of necros in this situation as well. That's the problem with playing a real bad guy. Eventually, just because of a lack of anything better to do, they'll become unplayable. Its the DR equivalent of true death.
Yet again, you're all missing the point and assuming I'm whining about not being able to train combats. I don't care. That's fine, I don't mind that if the person I GR manages to track me down, they can kill me. It's all in the thrill of the chase anyways. Graverobbing from people I can easily dispatch wouldn't be any fun anyways. So far I've been on Sylv since the Sorrow Wars, and I have yet to have a "lack of anything better do do." I'm going to try and put this in order for you.
The way you have it lined out, with needing 20 circles rangewise around the target, I would need to train to 50th circle to GR a person who is 70th. Once I've GRed said person, I have no way of expanding. My limit will always be 70th because I can't train for circling any longer. At that point, because I can never hit new and larger targets, I would begin to get bored playing my character, because there's no expanding possible. The ONLY viable way to do anything like this would be to use time IG. The circle limitations would lend themselves more towards the GRer never being able to get any better, getting bored, walking, and never being a real role in the game. Leaving it open and expanding on the role within the game provides for FAR more opportunities for fun things like chasing the guy down.
>>I also don't know if people will be quite as bloodthirsty when you don't have so many snerts rolled up just to GR people for the point of harassment.
And please, lets not overexaggerate the situation here. You make it sound like there are people being graverobbed every hour on the hour and it's clearly not the case.
>>I think a more accurate description is that a circle requirement would ruin your characters graverobbing- because your character which is say 20th circle, couldn't GR anyone more than 40th circle. So lets say that represents 50% of the population of DR- this would ruin GR for your character?
Most certainly it would. Like I said, there's no expansion at that point, no getting better, no hitting harder and harder targets. Also like I said before, it's a self destructive idea, not giving Graverobbers space to grow. It also completely removes the threat from people above a high circle level because they know no one wants to put that much work into a character just to stop and not be able to train again.
>>See, I- and probably a fair amount of DR see GR as a necessary evil filling the DR ecological niche similar to how mosquitos fill a niche. As a cleric, I have observed plenty of GR in the clerics guild- and not once have I observed any RP involved. Not once. Basically its grab as much as the person can before someone notices and run. If the person can be chased down and located, most times he doesn't have the stuff anymore. I have seen GR die who would just taunt that if they were killed the person would never get their stuff back. Many of them walk the road when they depart because they could care less about the character.
How many of these deals do you see all the way through to the end? What are you even classifying as RP? Do they need to go, "Oh yonder, I saweth thy death and thus stoleth thy backpack!" before they run away? What does a thief do when he steals something and people watch it happen? HE RUNS AWAY BEFORE THE POLICE GET THERE. It's what RP is at that point. Afterwards the RP becomes the chase, the taunts via the gweth, the threats thrown back, sometimes the catch and death of the criminal. Most of the spoken RP occurs when I'm dead, or when I'm out of shooting range. I've arranged deals, payoffs, had hits out on me. It's excellent. What else would you define as RP? I know, I'll join the militia! I'm not sure how you could taunt that if you're killed they can't get the stuff back. Of course they can, GR the GRer or just use search to get it back. Simple as pie.
>>I really don't care how hard it is for you to develope your GR character. I am willing to accept that you have a legitimate RP character who RP's a grave robber. I will even try to accept that you do this for the fun of the chase, rather than simply to annoy characters who have been stolen from. Your character represents such a small minority that my character has never experienced it. So I don't see any reason to facilitate your choices.
I'm not complaining about developing my character, I'm stating that circling isn't on the goals list for me or any other graverobber who actually RPs the role that I know. So the idea of circling is a bogus one. There's no GRing guild that I can gain circles in by GRing, or I'd be right there at my target's circle easily enough. I'm RPing a thief, not an assasin, not a locksmith. Therefore, I'm not going to gain circles. Basing any kind of "keeping out throwaway chars" mechanic on circles is just a bogus idea. Just so you know, I don't GR just for the thrill of the chase, one time I actually got paid to GR someone JUST so that the person was annoyed specifically. I love the chase though, it's excellent, but would I do it just for the chase alone and never keep the items? Not a chance.
>>Your character represents such a small minority that my character has never experienced it. So I don't see any reason to facilitate your choices.
So you've had no experience with the situation at hand, and you're revved up and ready to change it already? Excellent.
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
Yet again, you're all missing the point and assuming I'm whining about not being able to train combats. I don't care. That's fine, I don't mind that if the person I GR manages to track me down, they can kill me. It's all in the thrill of the chase anyways. Graverobbing from people I can easily dispatch wouldn't be any fun anyways. So far I've been on Sylv since the Sorrow Wars, and I have yet to have a "lack of anything better do do." I'm going to try and put this in order for you.
The way you have it lined out, with needing 20 circles rangewise around the target, I would need to train to 50th circle to GR a person who is 70th. Once I've GRed said person, I have no way of expanding. My limit will always be 70th because I can't train for circling any longer. At that point, because I can never hit new and larger targets, I would begin to get bored playing my character, because there's no expanding possible. The ONLY viable way to do anything like this would be to use time IG. The circle limitations would lend themselves more towards the GRer never being able to get any better, getting bored, walking, and never being a real role in the game. Leaving it open and expanding on the role within the game provides for FAR more opportunities for fun things like chasing the guy down.
>>I also don't know if people will be quite as bloodthirsty when you don't have so many snerts rolled up just to GR people for the point of harassment.
And please, lets not overexaggerate the situation here. You make it sound like there are people being graverobbed every hour on the hour and it's clearly not the case.
>>I think a more accurate description is that a circle requirement would ruin your characters graverobbing- because your character which is say 20th circle, couldn't GR anyone more than 40th circle. So lets say that represents 50% of the population of DR- this would ruin GR for your character?
Most certainly it would. Like I said, there's no expansion at that point, no getting better, no hitting harder and harder targets. Also like I said before, it's a self destructive idea, not giving Graverobbers space to grow. It also completely removes the threat from people above a high circle level because they know no one wants to put that much work into a character just to stop and not be able to train again.
>>See, I- and probably a fair amount of DR see GR as a necessary evil filling the DR ecological niche similar to how mosquitos fill a niche. As a cleric, I have observed plenty of GR in the clerics guild- and not once have I observed any RP involved. Not once. Basically its grab as much as the person can before someone notices and run. If the person can be chased down and located, most times he doesn't have the stuff anymore. I have seen GR die who would just taunt that if they were killed the person would never get their stuff back. Many of them walk the road when they depart because they could care less about the character.
How many of these deals do you see all the way through to the end? What are you even classifying as RP? Do they need to go, "Oh yonder, I saweth thy death and thus stoleth thy backpack!" before they run away? What does a thief do when he steals something and people watch it happen? HE RUNS AWAY BEFORE THE POLICE GET THERE. It's what RP is at that point. Afterwards the RP becomes the chase, the taunts via the gweth, the threats thrown back, sometimes the catch and death of the criminal. Most of the spoken RP occurs when I'm dead, or when I'm out of shooting range. I've arranged deals, payoffs, had hits out on me. It's excellent. What else would you define as RP? I know, I'll join the militia! I'm not sure how you could taunt that if you're killed they can't get the stuff back. Of course they can, GR the GRer or just use search to get it back. Simple as pie.
>>I really don't care how hard it is for you to develope your GR character. I am willing to accept that you have a legitimate RP character who RP's a grave robber. I will even try to accept that you do this for the fun of the chase, rather than simply to annoy characters who have been stolen from. Your character represents such a small minority that my character has never experienced it. So I don't see any reason to facilitate your choices.
I'm not complaining about developing my character, I'm stating that circling isn't on the goals list for me or any other graverobber who actually RPs the role that I know. So the idea of circling is a bogus one. There's no GRing guild that I can gain circles in by GRing, or I'd be right there at my target's circle easily enough. I'm RPing a thief, not an assasin, not a locksmith. Therefore, I'm not going to gain circles. Basing any kind of "keeping out throwaway chars" mechanic on circles is just a bogus idea. Just so you know, I don't GR just for the thrill of the chase, one time I actually got paid to GR someone JUST so that the person was annoyed specifically. I love the chase though, it's excellent, but would I do it just for the chase alone and never keep the items? Not a chance.
>>Your character represents such a small minority that my character has never experienced it. So I don't see any reason to facilitate your choices.
So you've had no experience with the situation at hand, and you're revved up and ready to change it already? Excellent.
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
ZAIRIUS
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/06/2005 03:01 PM CDT
>The way you have it lined out, with needing 20 circles rangewise around the target, I would need to train to 50th circle to GR a person who is 70th. Once I've GRed said person, I have no way of expanding. My limit will always be 70th because I can't train for circling any longer. At that point, because I can never hit new and larger targets, I would begin to get bored playing my character, because there's no expanding possible. The ONLY viable way to do anything like this would be to use time IG. The circle limitations would lend themselves more towards the GRer never being able to get any better, getting bored, walking, and never being a real role in the game. Leaving it open and expanding on the role within the game provides for FAR more opportunities for fun things like chasing the guy down.
Long term repurcussions for actions. Oh boo hoo! Roleplay doesn't really count if there are no consequences for your action. Sounds like you just want to graverob with no consequences.
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
Long term repurcussions for actions. Oh boo hoo! Roleplay doesn't really count if there are no consequences for your action. Sounds like you just want to graverob with no consequences.
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
FENILDUR
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/06/2005 03:16 PM CDT
>>Long term repurcussions for actions. Oh boo hoo! Roleplay doesn't really count if there are no consequences for your action. Sounds like you just want to graverob with no consequences.
Wonderful. I'm going to try this again for you Zairius, as I'm sure my last post detailed it quite well, it was long and perhaps a bit incomprehensible for you.
I understand that there are long term repercussions. For instance, I never go anywhere in town without being hidden. Heck, I'm hidden outside most of the time, unless I'm running. Consequence of not doing this: I GET KILLED. Let me tell you, people aren't going to drag a GRer to Clerics and get them a raise either, so it's definitely a consequence. I've been GRed before because I GR people, he tracked me down, killed me, took my backpack as justification. I don't have any problems with ANY of this. In fact, I enjoy it thoroughly, and it's part of the main reason I still have fun. Having the long term consequence be "never able to expand and getting bored silly" is an absurdity. You're not looking for consequences for GRing Zairius, or you'd see that they're right there. What you're looking for is for GRing to become nonexistant as opposed to a viable opportunity for both parties to have fun.
I really hope I explained this so you could understand. I LIKE consequences. GRing and the people crying and never coming to try and kill me wouldn't be any fun and I'd soon get fairly bored of it. Consequences make the game fun, but they have to be in line with the action.
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
Wonderful. I'm going to try this again for you Zairius, as I'm sure my last post detailed it quite well, it was long and perhaps a bit incomprehensible for you.
I understand that there are long term repercussions. For instance, I never go anywhere in town without being hidden. Heck, I'm hidden outside most of the time, unless I'm running. Consequence of not doing this: I GET KILLED. Let me tell you, people aren't going to drag a GRer to Clerics and get them a raise either, so it's definitely a consequence. I've been GRed before because I GR people, he tracked me down, killed me, took my backpack as justification. I don't have any problems with ANY of this. In fact, I enjoy it thoroughly, and it's part of the main reason I still have fun. Having the long term consequence be "never able to expand and getting bored silly" is an absurdity. You're not looking for consequences for GRing Zairius, or you'd see that they're right there. What you're looking for is for GRing to become nonexistant as opposed to a viable opportunity for both parties to have fun.
I really hope I explained this so you could understand. I LIKE consequences. GRing and the people crying and never coming to try and kill me wouldn't be any fun and I'd soon get fairly bored of it. Consequences make the game fun, but they have to be in line with the action.
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
ZAIRIUS
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/06/2005 03:27 PM CDT
>What you're looking for is for GRing to become nonexistant as opposed to a viable opportunity for both parties to have fun.
How is it fun when the stakes are uneven. The victim can lose what amounts to hundreds of hours of game playing time while the graverobber may lose what? 30 minutes for being dead?
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
How is it fun when the stakes are uneven. The victim can lose what amounts to hundreds of hours of game playing time while the graverobber may lose what? 30 minutes for being dead?
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
MOD-KAILDRED
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/06/2005 03:29 PM CDT
*Glances at the thread*
If we cannot keep this focused on the policy regarding graverobbing, then I'm going to have to close this thread. Let's try to keep this structured please.
~Kaildred
Please email all questions either to myself (MOD-Kaildred@play.net), Senior Board Monitor Annwyl (DR-Annwyl@play.net), or Message Board Supervisor Cecco (DR-Cecco@play.net).
If we cannot keep this focused on the policy regarding graverobbing, then I'm going to have to close this thread. Let's try to keep this structured please.
~Kaildred
Please email all questions either to myself (MOD-Kaildred@play.net), Senior Board Monitor Annwyl (DR-Annwyl@play.net), or Message Board Supervisor Cecco (DR-Cecco@play.net).
SAKHARA
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/06/2005 03:51 PM CDT
>Consequences make the game fun, but they have to be in line with the action.
Yup, and some of us consider a character becoming totally unplayable to be the ultimate punishment and one well suited for an action that has no other natural consequences or risks. Yes, its DR's harshest punishment. Its far harsher a punishment for a 50th circle chara than a 20th. That's as it should be. Particularly since its the only inherent risk to graverobbing.
Yes, I think its quite appropriate that someone would have to spend a few months running a character up to 50th to GR a 70th circle chara of something they truly cherish and will never recover. Great, the player of the GR just lost the use of that character and the player of the graverobbed looses an irreplacable item that most likely has sentimental value.
Sounds fair to me.
Yup, and some of us consider a character becoming totally unplayable to be the ultimate punishment and one well suited for an action that has no other natural consequences or risks. Yes, its DR's harshest punishment. Its far harsher a punishment for a 50th circle chara than a 20th. That's as it should be. Particularly since its the only inherent risk to graverobbing.
Yes, I think its quite appropriate that someone would have to spend a few months running a character up to 50th to GR a 70th circle chara of something they truly cherish and will never recover. Great, the player of the GR just lost the use of that character and the player of the graverobbed looses an irreplacable item that most likely has sentimental value.
Sounds fair to me.
ALDEN
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/06/2005 04:05 PM CDT
Any player who choses not to circle a character must suffer the consequences of that choice. My character doesn't get additional spell slots unless he circles. You want to be able to hunt big game, you need to do more than just train a few isolated skills.
Flavius
Flavius
FENILDUR
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/06/2005 06:10 PM CDT
What we're looking for here is a way to make graverobbing a VIABLE role within the game, not to make it worthless and unplayable
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
ALDEN
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/06/2005 10:15 PM CDT
you are advocating making GR more viable. I find GR irritating, but a reality. I am advocating making GR more competitive and less snertish
Flavius
Flavius
MORWYTH
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/07/2005 01:52 PM CDT
The mechanics to keep GR from running rampant already exist. If you don't use them, that's not a problem with GR mechanics-- it's a personal problem.
If a person uses throwaway characters to GR and is stupid enough to taunt the victim about it not mattering, that sounds dangerously like mechanics abuse, which can get the entire account locked out. So unless people are rolling up characters on totally unrelated accounts (which probably doesn't happen nearly so often now as it did back in the days of Zone accounts), there's a good chance the person is risking their access to the game.
And no, I'm not arguing this way to defend my own behavior. I have yet to GR anyone in my years in DR. I'm not saying I never will, but it's not really top on my list of IG priorities. I just think it's silly to continue to shriek for more and more safeguards from GR, when there are already plenty of ways to prevent it, which don't involve more coding.
If a person uses throwaway characters to GR and is stupid enough to taunt the victim about it not mattering, that sounds dangerously like mechanics abuse, which can get the entire account locked out. So unless people are rolling up characters on totally unrelated accounts (which probably doesn't happen nearly so often now as it did back in the days of Zone accounts), there's a good chance the person is risking their access to the game.
And no, I'm not arguing this way to defend my own behavior. I have yet to GR anyone in my years in DR. I'm not saying I never will, but it's not really top on my list of IG priorities. I just think it's silly to continue to shriek for more and more safeguards from GR, when there are already plenty of ways to prevent it, which don't involve more coding.
FENILDUR
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/07/2005 06:06 PM CDT
>>you are advocating making GR more viable. I find GR irritating, but a reality. I am advocating making GR more competitive and less snertish
Sounds more like you're wanting it to not be a viable role for a character to fill except for a short period of time.
Everyone misses the tremendous opportunities which are possible here for good fun. With the careers system coming, there are actual opportunities for roles like "tracker, bounty hunter, etc" to come out to combat Graverobbing. The idea of having a "price on your head" becomes reality without having to have people say, "omg consent!!!11" about the garbage. There is so much opportunity wise for both sides on this one, introducing something like a circle req to completely ruin the whole aspect of Graverobbing for the people who enjoy it is absurd.
We both want competition here, but you can't throw a meaningless and detrimental circle req on the policy and say that it's going to fix anything. If anything it'll just limit the people who are graverobbers to snerts instead of advocating roleplay and interaction between characters. Without a villain or something to band together against, the game gets boring. If it's completely and totally unattractive to be the bad guy type, no one is going to want to be the bad guy at all and the game will take a downward spiral toward boring. Lets just look at ways that make it fun for BOTH sides who are actually roleplaying it out. Mule characters and people abuse mechanics shouldn't be in this discussion at all because they're irrelevant to the people actually looking to have fun with the system that's available.
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
Sounds more like you're wanting it to not be a viable role for a character to fill except for a short period of time.
Everyone misses the tremendous opportunities which are possible here for good fun. With the careers system coming, there are actual opportunities for roles like "tracker, bounty hunter, etc" to come out to combat Graverobbing. The idea of having a "price on your head" becomes reality without having to have people say, "omg consent!!!11" about the garbage. There is so much opportunity wise for both sides on this one, introducing something like a circle req to completely ruin the whole aspect of Graverobbing for the people who enjoy it is absurd.
We both want competition here, but you can't throw a meaningless and detrimental circle req on the policy and say that it's going to fix anything. If anything it'll just limit the people who are graverobbers to snerts instead of advocating roleplay and interaction between characters. Without a villain or something to band together against, the game gets boring. If it's completely and totally unattractive to be the bad guy type, no one is going to want to be the bad guy at all and the game will take a downward spiral toward boring. Lets just look at ways that make it fun for BOTH sides who are actually roleplaying it out. Mule characters and people abuse mechanics shouldn't be in this discussion at all because they're irrelevant to the people actually looking to have fun with the system that's available.
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
ALDEN
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/07/2005 06:16 PM CDT
"We both want competition here, but you can't throw a meaningless and detrimental circle req on the policy and say that it's going to fix anything. If anything it'll just limit the people who are graverobbers to snerts instead of advocating roleplay and interaction between characters."
I really can't see how a circle limitation would have that affect at all. As I have said before, I haven't actually encountered a Grave Robber who roleplayed being one before- but I accept your premise that you and possibly others do so with RP in mind. I still don't see how limiting your GR to 20 circles over your characters circle would be a detriment to your RP. However it might provide some deterant for the vast majority of Grave robbers that I have personally observed.
"Without a villain or something to band together against, the game gets boring. If it's completely and totally unattractive to be the bad guy type, no one is going to want to be the bad guy at all and the game will take a downward spiral toward boring."
Thats your opinion, not mine. I have yet to encounter with someone RP a bad guy who affected my interest or boredom with DR.
However you had posted requesting some changes to grave robbery mechanics and then Dio posted with his ideas. I just like his ideas better than yours.
Flavius
I really can't see how a circle limitation would have that affect at all. As I have said before, I haven't actually encountered a Grave Robber who roleplayed being one before- but I accept your premise that you and possibly others do so with RP in mind. I still don't see how limiting your GR to 20 circles over your characters circle would be a detriment to your RP. However it might provide some deterant for the vast majority of Grave robbers that I have personally observed.
"Without a villain or something to band together against, the game gets boring. If it's completely and totally unattractive to be the bad guy type, no one is going to want to be the bad guy at all and the game will take a downward spiral toward boring."
Thats your opinion, not mine. I have yet to encounter with someone RP a bad guy who affected my interest or boredom with DR.
However you had posted requesting some changes to grave robbery mechanics and then Dio posted with his ideas. I just like his ideas better than yours.
Flavius
FENILDUR
Re: Please fix Grave Robbing
09/07/2005 06:36 PM CDT
<<I really can't see how a circle limitation would have that affect at all. As I have said before, I haven't actually encountered a Grave Robber who roleplayed being one before- but I accept your premise that you and possibly others do so with RP in mind. I still don't see how limiting your GR to 20 circles over your characters circle would be a detriment to your RP. However it might provide some deterant for the vast majority of Grave robbers that I have personally observed.>>
As I mentioned before, choosing the role of a graverobber severely limits your ability to circle and train quite a few skills. Guilds require these skills to circle. See the link? Graverobbing itself stops me from circling, but you're requiring circling to graverob. It's a catch 22. I wouldn't mind something along the lines of a "time IG" or a years prereq of some sort implemented. Anything besides circling. Heck, make up some sort of ranking system where the more you GR the higher the circle you can GR. I don't care as long as it isn't circles.
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
As I mentioned before, choosing the role of a graverobber severely limits your ability to circle and train quite a few skills. Guilds require these skills to circle. See the link? Graverobbing itself stops me from circling, but you're requiring circling to graverob. It's a catch 22. I wouldn't mind something along the lines of a "time IG" or a years prereq of some sort implemented. Anything besides circling. Heck, make up some sort of ranking system where the more you GR the higher the circle you can GR. I don't care as long as it isn't circles.
-Sylv
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
