Previous
I've quit training. I've quit working my skills up high, well except hiding and
stalking. My whole gameplay experience really now is devoted to two things. 1.
Making fun of morons on the gweth who use ::giggles:: and :tickles: like it's an
AOL chat room or something and 2. Graverob said fools whenever I get the
chance. I can think of about 8 or 9 people off the top of my head who have
permanent consent on me that will whack me whenever they get a chance. Am I a
terrible person for this charade? Not a chance. It's all part of the game.
Hunting willy nilly goblins and whatever is fun for so long, but it gets boring
and soon becomes .combatstart and just let it go while I eat a sandwich and
watch the screen. Ooh rah.
The only thrill left in DR is really the thrill of the chase. That's why I
made a thief to begin with, the thrill of stealing, being caught, and being
chased by some goof for an hour for his 3 silver. It's excellent fun as long as
you're not being a yutz and hiding in no combat zones and the like. The problem
with Graverobbing now is that there are too many restrictions on it. It is HARD
to graverob a mark. First you have to find a dead guy. Usually not to hard.
Then you need to make sure he has something worth spending 3 FREAKING HOURS for.
THEN you have to hope there isn't a cleric that can raise or a paladin that can
glyph or that the victim won't log until later when one comes. If you get it
the chase begins. The only problem? You now have 3928 people after you who
really don't have consent anyways trying to kill you. These are the same
pantywaists that cry harassment when you steal in front or on the ferry, and the
same goofs who report when they walk in a r!
oom with someone casting a room effect spell and die. To top it off, you don't
have consent on these people. I don't report when they kill me, but it's darned
irritating that I don't have consent on them. Not to mention if I do report I
don't get to keep the item and start again anyways I'm betting. But that's ok,
you deal with it, you get by. It's still the best part of DR, being chased.
So I'm going to go against the grain here. I'd like some way to rob corpses
straight up. Just walk up, kick the body and grab an item. I'd also like it to
not be against policy to take a boat to Ratha if I time it correctly. Currently
if I try that I die a spirit death, and then I'm really screwed.
Please give graverobbers Pre Titles and let us be policied endorsed parts of DR.
I abide by policy even as it cuts the legs of the chase from beneath me. There
aren't many of us, but please make it easier on us. If we run to a place they
can't find us, don't make us get out and give back the item because THEY are the
ones who are inept. Don't give us warnings for not giving back items BECAUSE
THE PERSON WANTS THEM BACK AND WAS AFK. Please make policy for graverobbing
more hard lined with definite dos and do nots. Please take out words like
"reasonable" that are completely subject to leaning one way or another.
Thank you.
Man, putting a name on this sounds like suicide.
-The Previous Player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.hotornot.com/r/?eid=KZAUBQO&key=CWY
FENILDUR
DIVINEWIND
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
04/14/2005 06:36 PM CDT
Greatest Post Ever. Amen.
-G, player thereof
---
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: That is why no one will remember your name.
-G, player thereof
---
Messenger Boy: The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him.
Achilles: That is why no one will remember your name.
SYLER
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 01:08 PM CDT
I'm guessing this post was satirical, though if it wasn't, I find my post all the more relevant...
I find Graverobbing an -almost- fascinating behaviour, my fascination as a result of analagous behaviours that're illustrated in a multitude of games. I find this interesting, because if one pauses to consider these activities, they are prototypical sociopathic/psychopathic behaviour. What's now called Antisocial Behaviour.
The question I often ponder over is whether the people who act in these manners, the ones who exist in the game purely to cause harm/emotional stress to other players, act this way in real life. Or perhaps they believe that the game world is a world without consequences? That only -punishable- behaviour should be avoided, as opposed to -wrong- behaviour? And if our society has moved to the point where it's about 'doing what is right (so we're not caught)' instead of 'doing what is right, period,' then what does this say of our future? Indeed, it's easy to say, 'well it's just a game,' but what of it? Isn't -that- the deeper message, the deeper truth we need to explore? For your consumption, I provide a 'test,' found on wikipedia simply by searching for Psychopath or Sociopath... I've removed the last portion of the test because it's marginally irrelevant, or hard to find applicable in this circumstance... In the case that the behaviour is 'not present' tally a 0, in the case it's 'vaguely present' tally a 1, and the case that it's 'strongly present' tally a 2.. I'll go ahead and keep my own subjective score after each entry, working off the archetypical graverobber.
Interpersonal dimension
* Glibness/superficial charm
1
* Grandiose sense of self-worth
2
* Pathological lying
1
* Conning/manipulative
2
* Lack of remorse or guilt
2
* Shallow affect
2
* Callous/lack of empathy
2
* Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
2
Affective dimension
* Need for stimulation/-proneness to boredom
2
* Parasitic lifestyle
2
* Poor behavioral controls
2
* Early behavioral problems
(Unknown)
* Lack of realistic, long-term goals
2
* Impulsivity
2
* Irresponsibility
2
* Juvenile delinquency
(unknown)
* Revocation of conditional release
(unknown, naturally)
That's 26 points. The test is normally out of 40 points, where 30 indicates a strong association with psychopathic behaviour. Because a multitude of test questions couldn't be answered, I'll use percentile as association.
30/40 = 75%
26/34 = 76%
While I'm not saying that these people who are utterly callous towards the harm they're doing towards others are inherently 'off,' I am saying that this is a somewhat interesting social phenomenon. The backwards logic they maintain to justify themselves is also fascinating, if flawed.
The logic of, 'it's just a game,' is a favored excuse...
Were two people playing chess in a park, and I stepped up to them, and then overturned their chess board, 'it's just a game,' would probably not matter to the players in question. It is indeed just a game, but it was something they were involved in that the person in question purposefully and knowfully disrupted, entirely for the reaction they recieved; someone else's distress.
The actions of the 'thug,' the 'snert,' the 'graverobber,' all fall in the same vein. They are -aware- they are causing -distress- to people, whether or -not- that distress is justified. We would not expect even a fully rational adult, upon their chess board being knocked over, to sit there and say, 'welp, that's the way the cookie crumbles.' No, we'd probably expect a shouting match to begin. Do we reward these people, who knock over chess boards in real life? Do we sit by and accept them? Generally not, no. Mostly, we develop laws, and kick these people out of our communities, or, if they wish to be reformed, attempt ot reform them.
Naturally the corkscrew policies of Simu give the Game-Sociopaths the ability to hide, survive, and thrive, but the question still must be faced even by those of us who aren't regular 'thugs.' We must ask, have we ourselves ever engaged in -any- activity like this? Are we taking into account that there is someone else on the other side of the computer, a fully formed human being with their own emotions and psyche? Isn't it our duty, as human beings, to respect those others?...
From here, one can then analyze 'playing evil,' however, I'm excluding that set of people from this discussion, as it influxes a series of issues and concerns. I speak purely of the people for whom roleplaying is irrelevant, and harming/upsetting another human being (they like to say Character, or Player, because it's easier to seperate that, from Human Being) for the sake of causing harm...
For those that cared to push through that, thanks. Those that didn't, thank your lucky stars ;)
Mrrar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath
Disclaimer: I am not a trained or even student psychologist, merely someone with concern for the Dragonrealms Community.
But then they buried her alive
One evening 1945
With just her sister at her side
And only weeks before the guns
All came and rained on everyone
I find Graverobbing an -almost- fascinating behaviour, my fascination as a result of analagous behaviours that're illustrated in a multitude of games. I find this interesting, because if one pauses to consider these activities, they are prototypical sociopathic/psychopathic behaviour. What's now called Antisocial Behaviour.
The question I often ponder over is whether the people who act in these manners, the ones who exist in the game purely to cause harm/emotional stress to other players, act this way in real life. Or perhaps they believe that the game world is a world without consequences? That only -punishable- behaviour should be avoided, as opposed to -wrong- behaviour? And if our society has moved to the point where it's about 'doing what is right (so we're not caught)' instead of 'doing what is right, period,' then what does this say of our future? Indeed, it's easy to say, 'well it's just a game,' but what of it? Isn't -that- the deeper message, the deeper truth we need to explore? For your consumption, I provide a 'test,' found on wikipedia simply by searching for Psychopath or Sociopath... I've removed the last portion of the test because it's marginally irrelevant, or hard to find applicable in this circumstance... In the case that the behaviour is 'not present' tally a 0, in the case it's 'vaguely present' tally a 1, and the case that it's 'strongly present' tally a 2.. I'll go ahead and keep my own subjective score after each entry, working off the archetypical graverobber.
Interpersonal dimension
* Glibness/superficial charm
1
* Grandiose sense of self-worth
2
* Pathological lying
1
* Conning/manipulative
2
* Lack of remorse or guilt
2
* Shallow affect
2
* Callous/lack of empathy
2
* Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
2
Affective dimension
* Need for stimulation/-proneness to boredom
2
* Parasitic lifestyle
2
* Poor behavioral controls
2
* Early behavioral problems
(Unknown)
* Lack of realistic, long-term goals
2
* Impulsivity
2
* Irresponsibility
2
* Juvenile delinquency
(unknown)
* Revocation of conditional release
(unknown, naturally)
That's 26 points. The test is normally out of 40 points, where 30 indicates a strong association with psychopathic behaviour. Because a multitude of test questions couldn't be answered, I'll use percentile as association.
30/40 = 75%
26/34 = 76%
While I'm not saying that these people who are utterly callous towards the harm they're doing towards others are inherently 'off,' I am saying that this is a somewhat interesting social phenomenon. The backwards logic they maintain to justify themselves is also fascinating, if flawed.
The logic of, 'it's just a game,' is a favored excuse...
Were two people playing chess in a park, and I stepped up to them, and then overturned their chess board, 'it's just a game,' would probably not matter to the players in question. It is indeed just a game, but it was something they were involved in that the person in question purposefully and knowfully disrupted, entirely for the reaction they recieved; someone else's distress.
The actions of the 'thug,' the 'snert,' the 'graverobber,' all fall in the same vein. They are -aware- they are causing -distress- to people, whether or -not- that distress is justified. We would not expect even a fully rational adult, upon their chess board being knocked over, to sit there and say, 'welp, that's the way the cookie crumbles.' No, we'd probably expect a shouting match to begin. Do we reward these people, who knock over chess boards in real life? Do we sit by and accept them? Generally not, no. Mostly, we develop laws, and kick these people out of our communities, or, if they wish to be reformed, attempt ot reform them.
Naturally the corkscrew policies of Simu give the Game-Sociopaths the ability to hide, survive, and thrive, but the question still must be faced even by those of us who aren't regular 'thugs.' We must ask, have we ourselves ever engaged in -any- activity like this? Are we taking into account that there is someone else on the other side of the computer, a fully formed human being with their own emotions and psyche? Isn't it our duty, as human beings, to respect those others?...
From here, one can then analyze 'playing evil,' however, I'm excluding that set of people from this discussion, as it influxes a series of issues and concerns. I speak purely of the people for whom roleplaying is irrelevant, and harming/upsetting another human being (they like to say Character, or Player, because it's easier to seperate that, from Human Being) for the sake of causing harm...
For those that cared to push through that, thanks. Those that didn't, thank your lucky stars ;)
Mrrar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath
Disclaimer: I am not a trained or even student psychologist, merely someone with concern for the Dragonrealms Community.
But then they buried her alive
One evening 1945
With just her sister at her side
And only weeks before the guns
All came and rained on everyone
JARAAD
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 01:37 PM CDT
<<DragonRealms is designed for the enjoyment of everyone, and as a general rule, any behavior which is specifically targeted to lessen that enjoyment for another player, may be in violation of DragonRealms policy.>>
<<When one individual is reducing the enjoyment of ther players by out-of-character behavior (be it by speech, actions, messages over a game-wide system, or any other method of communication within DragonRealms), this may be considered as disruptive behavior.>>
(referencing PvP specifically, but applicable) <<Anyone exhibiting such behavior, especially one who chooses to prey upon weaker players for his or her own enjoyment, may be in violation of DragonRealms policy.>>
You may think you are well within your rights to graverob someone just for the "thrill of the chase" as you put it, but it's a direct violation of policy especially if you do nothing to roleplay the conflict.
Don't try to hide behind "it's only for fun" or "it's only a game." Because after all, if you get locked out of DR, it's "only a game," right?
PS: I'd like to make a note that if someone graverobbed me but stuck around to roleplay it, I'd probably have a lot of fun. I could have plenty of fun getting murdered in DR if the assailant were a good roleplayer. But causing distress to someone else with no in-character justification can be called nothing but harassment.
Thank you. :)
<<When one individual is reducing the enjoyment of ther players by out-of-character behavior (be it by speech, actions, messages over a game-wide system, or any other method of communication within DragonRealms), this may be considered as disruptive behavior.>>
(referencing PvP specifically, but applicable) <<Anyone exhibiting such behavior, especially one who chooses to prey upon weaker players for his or her own enjoyment, may be in violation of DragonRealms policy.>>
You may think you are well within your rights to graverob someone just for the "thrill of the chase" as you put it, but it's a direct violation of policy especially if you do nothing to roleplay the conflict.
Don't try to hide behind "it's only for fun" or "it's only a game." Because after all, if you get locked out of DR, it's "only a game," right?
PS: I'd like to make a note that if someone graverobbed me but stuck around to roleplay it, I'd probably have a lot of fun. I could have plenty of fun getting murdered in DR if the assailant were a good roleplayer. But causing distress to someone else with no in-character justification can be called nothing but harassment.
Thank you. :)
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 01:47 PM CDT
Look pal, you're reading too much into this. All this sociopathic behavior references from a game is a bit overboard. Lets take your chess reference for example. Flipping the board over is against the rules. Graverobbing is not against the rules. The equivalent here would be instead of playing a normal solid opening, you play something like the Danish Gambit, where you have a high chance of getting smacked around but if the other person doesn't know what they're doing, the beating is pretty terrible. Graverobbing is in no way shape or form against the rules in DR. They would NOT have coded it if it was. There supposed to be penalties to dying IG, one of those penalties is the threat of your belongings being stolen, which is why people hope that they're found and raised.
You're comparing it to hurting people IRL. If someone's attachment to their character is THAT great, that they can't stand a part of the game which they've been playing the whole time finally reach out and get them. A threat that has always been there finally being carried through really sets them into distress and makes them cry, then there's a serious problem with that person. You're yacking on and on about actions without consequences and not wanting to take responsibility, but that's not what's going on here. I graverob people to have fun. Do you think I do it just to hurt the other person's feelings? No. I do it because they give chase. Like I said, it's a thrill having multiple people chasing you all around trying to kill you while you try and outwit them. It's a game, and it's one of the only games left in Dragonrealms that really gives me any thrill anymore.
For your information, the post was in no way shape or form satirical. The actions in game however, are not how I act IRL. It's a completely different ballpark. There ARE consequences in DR. IG consequences to IG actions. Just like there are IRL consequences to IRL actions. 'Doing what is right, period' is bogus and you know it. One man's right is another man's wrong.
The test you provide also has bogus written all over it. Who are you analyzing? The character or the player? I've got another chess reference for you. Flipping the board would be better compared to hacking into their computer, stealing their passwords, logging in and dropping all their stuff in the bucket, then deleting the characters and the account. Graverobbing is part of the game, just like murder and love are. Get off your high horse Freud, and join the rest of us normal people just trying to have fun in a game they pay for.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
You're comparing it to hurting people IRL. If someone's attachment to their character is THAT great, that they can't stand a part of the game which they've been playing the whole time finally reach out and get them. A threat that has always been there finally being carried through really sets them into distress and makes them cry, then there's a serious problem with that person. You're yacking on and on about actions without consequences and not wanting to take responsibility, but that's not what's going on here. I graverob people to have fun. Do you think I do it just to hurt the other person's feelings? No. I do it because they give chase. Like I said, it's a thrill having multiple people chasing you all around trying to kill you while you try and outwit them. It's a game, and it's one of the only games left in Dragonrealms that really gives me any thrill anymore.
For your information, the post was in no way shape or form satirical. The actions in game however, are not how I act IRL. It's a completely different ballpark. There ARE consequences in DR. IG consequences to IG actions. Just like there are IRL consequences to IRL actions. 'Doing what is right, period' is bogus and you know it. One man's right is another man's wrong.
The test you provide also has bogus written all over it. Who are you analyzing? The character or the player? I've got another chess reference for you. Flipping the board would be better compared to hacking into their computer, stealing their passwords, logging in and dropping all their stuff in the bucket, then deleting the characters and the account. Graverobbing is part of the game, just like murder and love are. Get off your high horse Freud, and join the rest of us normal people just trying to have fun in a game they pay for.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
SYLER
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 04:26 PM CDT
Listen, if I GR you, you'll probably destroy me if you can catch me.
<<(referencing PvP specifically, but applicable) Anyone exhibiting such behavior, especially one who chooses to prey upon weaker players for his or her own enjoyment, may be in violation of DragonRealms policy.>>
So I doubt that's true at all. Anyone over 20th circle can probably take me down.
<<When one individual is reducing the enjoyment of ther players by out-of-character behavior (be it by speech, actions, messages over a game-wide system, or any other method of communication within DragonRealms), this may be considered as disruptive behavior.>>
Awesome, I'm hoping you're not trying to say Graverobbing is OOC in any way shape or form. It is condoned by policy completely in its current form as long as the victim is given a fair chance to find you. For example no sitting in rooms where they can't locate, can't attack, can't get to, etc.
From news 2 48:
<<Graverobbing will always be a part of the game -- we do not discourage it -- but we are taking steps to make sure that the victim gets a fair shot at getting their items back, as departing has become (and will continue to be, even after Resurrection is back) a commonplace event in Dragonrealms.>>
<<PS: I'd like to make a note that if someone graverobbed me but stuck around to roleplay it, I'd probably have a lot of fun. I could have plenty of fun getting murdered in DR if the assailant were a good roleplayer. But causing distress to someone else with no in-character justification can be called nothing but harassment.>>
<<You may think you are well within your rights to graverob someone just for the "thrill of the chase" as you put it, but it's a direct violation of policy especially if you do nothing to roleplay the conflict.>>
So you're telling me stealing from someone is harassment? Please read policy before you make blanket statements like the one above.
I still think policy should be made more lenient towards Graverobbers in the fact that people reporting should have less leway. I would also like boats to not be off limits, being somewhat like "catching a train" in the old west which required a great deal of timing and skill to pull off.
Jaarad, you are welcome.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
<<(referencing PvP specifically, but applicable) Anyone exhibiting such behavior, especially one who chooses to prey upon weaker players for his or her own enjoyment, may be in violation of DragonRealms policy.>>
So I doubt that's true at all. Anyone over 20th circle can probably take me down.
<<When one individual is reducing the enjoyment of ther players by out-of-character behavior (be it by speech, actions, messages over a game-wide system, or any other method of communication within DragonRealms), this may be considered as disruptive behavior.>>
Awesome, I'm hoping you're not trying to say Graverobbing is OOC in any way shape or form. It is condoned by policy completely in its current form as long as the victim is given a fair chance to find you. For example no sitting in rooms where they can't locate, can't attack, can't get to, etc.
From news 2 48:
<<Graverobbing will always be a part of the game -- we do not discourage it -- but we are taking steps to make sure that the victim gets a fair shot at getting their items back, as departing has become (and will continue to be, even after Resurrection is back) a commonplace event in Dragonrealms.>>
<<PS: I'd like to make a note that if someone graverobbed me but stuck around to roleplay it, I'd probably have a lot of fun. I could have plenty of fun getting murdered in DR if the assailant were a good roleplayer. But causing distress to someone else with no in-character justification can be called nothing but harassment.>>
<<You may think you are well within your rights to graverob someone just for the "thrill of the chase" as you put it, but it's a direct violation of policy especially if you do nothing to roleplay the conflict.>>
So you're telling me stealing from someone is harassment? Please read policy before you make blanket statements like the one above.
I still think policy should be made more lenient towards Graverobbers in the fact that people reporting should have less leway. I would also like boats to not be off limits, being somewhat like "catching a train" in the old west which required a great deal of timing and skill to pull off.
Jaarad, you are welcome.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
SYLER
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 05:01 PM CDT
By your definition of Grave Robbing
"It's fun to be chased"
You are fully recognizing that you have upset someone enough that they've deigned it needed to persue you.
If you, before graverobbing, whisper to the graverobbed "Do you want to play a game of cat and mouse? I'll grave rob this and you can chase me"
Then by all means, do that.
But if you are graverobbing without asking, thereby fully admitting you are purposefully inciting a reaction in them, you are by its very definition, harassing.
==
Harass:
To irritate or torment persistently.
==
The game is not "Dragonrealms: Graverobbing."
That graverobbing is at all an accepted policy for Simu (outside of Roleplaying, which most graverobbers certainly do not, since all Roleplayers are aware that Roleplay is a mutual and consensual activity OOCly) is, in my point of view, an example of their unadulterated cyncicism. That they feel they can get away with keeping the Graverobbed paying money, as well as the Graverobbers. I think if Graverobbing was banned completely, they'd lose.. fifty accounts? That they feel they -need- those fifty accounts, or more importantly, can get away with having everyone on board, essentially paying to play a game where not everyone abides by ethical codes, is cynical.
Graverobbing should be outright banned, or be given a system in which people can choose to take part in being graverobbed, where in systems exist that the graverobber and graverobbed can interact, can be given some or no hint as to what/where/why.
I feel that stealing, however, is okay, because the system manages it very well. There are effective ways to prevent it, and there are systems in existence which allow for NPC intervention. If you get caught stealing from a trader, NPCs can be sent out to find you and beat the living heck out of you. Chances are, you'll die. There is no such system for the graverobbed. Until there is, it is a Borken system.
As a note.. I'm paying for the game too. If you do something to me, without my consent, you are, to some degree, violating my space and my game time. Thieving of coins is generally on a very limited scale, unless you carry around all your money in plats. If you steal my Longbow or my cloak, you've stolen something unique from me. Something I can never, ever, -ever- get back, or reproduce... How is that fair?
Mrrar
"It's fun to be chased"
You are fully recognizing that you have upset someone enough that they've deigned it needed to persue you.
If you, before graverobbing, whisper to the graverobbed "Do you want to play a game of cat and mouse? I'll grave rob this and you can chase me"
Then by all means, do that.
But if you are graverobbing without asking, thereby fully admitting you are purposefully inciting a reaction in them, you are by its very definition, harassing.
==
Harass:
To irritate or torment persistently.
==
The game is not "Dragonrealms: Graverobbing."
That graverobbing is at all an accepted policy for Simu (outside of Roleplaying, which most graverobbers certainly do not, since all Roleplayers are aware that Roleplay is a mutual and consensual activity OOCly) is, in my point of view, an example of their unadulterated cyncicism. That they feel they can get away with keeping the Graverobbed paying money, as well as the Graverobbers. I think if Graverobbing was banned completely, they'd lose.. fifty accounts? That they feel they -need- those fifty accounts, or more importantly, can get away with having everyone on board, essentially paying to play a game where not everyone abides by ethical codes, is cynical.
Graverobbing should be outright banned, or be given a system in which people can choose to take part in being graverobbed, where in systems exist that the graverobber and graverobbed can interact, can be given some or no hint as to what/where/why.
I feel that stealing, however, is okay, because the system manages it very well. There are effective ways to prevent it, and there are systems in existence which allow for NPC intervention. If you get caught stealing from a trader, NPCs can be sent out to find you and beat the living heck out of you. Chances are, you'll die. There is no such system for the graverobbed. Until there is, it is a Borken system.
As a note.. I'm paying for the game too. If you do something to me, without my consent, you are, to some degree, violating my space and my game time. Thieving of coins is generally on a very limited scale, unless you carry around all your money in plats. If you steal my Longbow or my cloak, you've stolen something unique from me. Something I can never, ever, -ever- get back, or reproduce... How is that fair?
Mrrar
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 05:59 PM CDT
Listen to me, try to understand this:
They included graverobbing in the game as a possibility because it reinforces reasons not to die. When you go hunting to gain ranks, do you whisper to the creatures, "Listen, I'll stab you and you die and you give me experience/treasure but please don't kill me."? No you don't because that's absurd. It's part of the RP of being in a midieval world. There are dangers, one of these is the danger of having your crap stolen by some guy if you die. All the more reason for you not to die.
How is it fair? It isn't fair. Is it fair that I was walking along and got shot in the face by Elpazi when I first started to play? How about was it fair when I was walking to Haven and Grishnok took my head off? It's not fair, but it's part of the game. Part of the enjoyment of the game is the danger aspect of it. Graverobbing IS stealing. It is stealing items as opposed to gems/coins. Difference being, at any time in game you can kill me in an effort to retrieve the item. Most people don't kill 30 times over 2 plats stolen. It's just like stealing coins except the scales are higher. I have yet to be walked, but I've been pretty darned close to getting walked by people. It's a thrill really, and if I get walked it'll suck working to where I am now, but I'll still enjoy it.
<<You are fully recognizing that you have upset someone enough that they've deigned it needed to persue you.>>
Here you go yacking about upsetting people again. Listen, if gettin an item stolen from you in a text based game sincerely upsets you, there's a problem with you. Seek help. If however your character is POed that some guy just nabbed your longbow and road off into the sunset, then your character is normal. Your character should then grab a group of people to assist in the location of the culprit and then deliver some justice with the business end of your shoe and take your item back. Heck, it's easier to catch a graverobber than it is to take down the guy who stole a few plats from you, they can hide and go to thief only or secure areas, graverobbers can do no such thing.
<<If you, before graverobbing, whisper to the graverobbed "Do you want to play a game of cat and mouse? I'll grave rob this and you can chase me">>
No one is going to agree with this for the simple reason that they MAY NOT GET THE ITEM BACK. In fact, because I'm fairly proud of my running amuck skills, I doubt they'll get the item back. This is the point of playing the game. If you don't want to risk being graverobbed, DO NOT DIE. Do not hunt, do not leave safe areas, and by all means do not participate in events. Being graverobbed is part of the world we play in, it is one of the reasons you are avoiding death. Get raised every time if you never want to risk it. Every time you go out to hunt or engage in any activity where you can die in game, it is like telling me, "sure, I feel like playing some cat and mouse." Just like leaving non-stealing areas is telling thieves you don't mind your coins being stolen.
Not every part of this game is going to be how every person wants it to be. People play DR because it's a fantasy type world, the problem is my fantasy involves danger and daring whereas your fantasy involves Carebears and whimsy.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
They included graverobbing in the game as a possibility because it reinforces reasons not to die. When you go hunting to gain ranks, do you whisper to the creatures, "Listen, I'll stab you and you die and you give me experience/treasure but please don't kill me."? No you don't because that's absurd. It's part of the RP of being in a midieval world. There are dangers, one of these is the danger of having your crap stolen by some guy if you die. All the more reason for you not to die.
How is it fair? It isn't fair. Is it fair that I was walking along and got shot in the face by Elpazi when I first started to play? How about was it fair when I was walking to Haven and Grishnok took my head off? It's not fair, but it's part of the game. Part of the enjoyment of the game is the danger aspect of it. Graverobbing IS stealing. It is stealing items as opposed to gems/coins. Difference being, at any time in game you can kill me in an effort to retrieve the item. Most people don't kill 30 times over 2 plats stolen. It's just like stealing coins except the scales are higher. I have yet to be walked, but I've been pretty darned close to getting walked by people. It's a thrill really, and if I get walked it'll suck working to where I am now, but I'll still enjoy it.
<<You are fully recognizing that you have upset someone enough that they've deigned it needed to persue you.>>
Here you go yacking about upsetting people again. Listen, if gettin an item stolen from you in a text based game sincerely upsets you, there's a problem with you. Seek help. If however your character is POed that some guy just nabbed your longbow and road off into the sunset, then your character is normal. Your character should then grab a group of people to assist in the location of the culprit and then deliver some justice with the business end of your shoe and take your item back. Heck, it's easier to catch a graverobber than it is to take down the guy who stole a few plats from you, they can hide and go to thief only or secure areas, graverobbers can do no such thing.
<<If you, before graverobbing, whisper to the graverobbed "Do you want to play a game of cat and mouse? I'll grave rob this and you can chase me">>
No one is going to agree with this for the simple reason that they MAY NOT GET THE ITEM BACK. In fact, because I'm fairly proud of my running amuck skills, I doubt they'll get the item back. This is the point of playing the game. If you don't want to risk being graverobbed, DO NOT DIE. Do not hunt, do not leave safe areas, and by all means do not participate in events. Being graverobbed is part of the world we play in, it is one of the reasons you are avoiding death. Get raised every time if you never want to risk it. Every time you go out to hunt or engage in any activity where you can die in game, it is like telling me, "sure, I feel like playing some cat and mouse." Just like leaving non-stealing areas is telling thieves you don't mind your coins being stolen.
Not every part of this game is going to be how every person wants it to be. People play DR because it's a fantasy type world, the problem is my fantasy involves danger and daring whereas your fantasy involves Carebears and whimsy.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
LENNONJON
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 06:11 PM CDT
<<The question I often ponder over is whether the people who act in these manners, the ones who exist in the game purely to cause harm/emotional stress to other players, act this way in real life. >>
As a psychologist who studies the evolutionary propensities of behaviors associated with psychopathy and sociopathy I feel that I should chime in here (skip this post if you don't want a lecture).
One thing you must keep in mind is that EVERYONE displays the behaviors associated with these dispositions regardless of how moral they may believe they are (several researchers are now examining non-clinical, population-level psychopathy and sociopathy). What differes is the degree to which they are manifested, the contexts in which they are manifested, and the combinations of the behaviors as they present themselves. Taking the morality arguement out of this (as morality is relative to situation, and hence culture) the behaviors in and of themselves are not good, bad, right, wrong, or justified. They simply are. Behaviors that exist, exist because of their aim at helping to solve some problem of the individual at the time in which they are displayed. Yes they might affect our sense of morality, however, morality is a judgement (subjective) the behaviors are manifest (objective).
Keep in mind that in real life when an individual "behaves" in front of others there are psychological mechanisms that help keep us "in check" through various cues. Such as facial expressions, vocalizations, morays, norms, etc. This is essentialy a signaling concept: One person behaves, another person signals in reaction to the behavior, the reciever then decides what to do. Now, there are individual differences in how well people percieve such cues, react to such cues, and display such cues. In the context of a game the situations we encounter are not exactly "real" in any sense and as such whichever behaviors may help you to achieve your goal are more likely to be displayed in such a context than that of real life. There are no facial expressions to tap into our empathy mechanisms, we hear and see no distress, we are in fact distanced from the object of our behavior and as such divorced from the overall understanding that it may in fact affect someone.
Sure we can, and do, consciously understand that these individuals are at the other end of our screen. However, visceral responses, instinctual behaviors, etc. have a head-start on such thoughts.
Ohh and BTW, it is afterall just a game. Sure I can understand how something in game could potentially affect you in real life (afterall the same psychological mechanisms are affected on the part of the reciever of the behavior). However, if in fact what happens in game really hurts you a lot in real-life perhaps you need to find another outlet?
--Just a "clueless" Squire
Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.
As a psychologist who studies the evolutionary propensities of behaviors associated with psychopathy and sociopathy I feel that I should chime in here (skip this post if you don't want a lecture).
One thing you must keep in mind is that EVERYONE displays the behaviors associated with these dispositions regardless of how moral they may believe they are (several researchers are now examining non-clinical, population-level psychopathy and sociopathy). What differes is the degree to which they are manifested, the contexts in which they are manifested, and the combinations of the behaviors as they present themselves. Taking the morality arguement out of this (as morality is relative to situation, and hence culture) the behaviors in and of themselves are not good, bad, right, wrong, or justified. They simply are. Behaviors that exist, exist because of their aim at helping to solve some problem of the individual at the time in which they are displayed. Yes they might affect our sense of morality, however, morality is a judgement (subjective) the behaviors are manifest (objective).
Keep in mind that in real life when an individual "behaves" in front of others there are psychological mechanisms that help keep us "in check" through various cues. Such as facial expressions, vocalizations, morays, norms, etc. This is essentialy a signaling concept: One person behaves, another person signals in reaction to the behavior, the reciever then decides what to do. Now, there are individual differences in how well people percieve such cues, react to such cues, and display such cues. In the context of a game the situations we encounter are not exactly "real" in any sense and as such whichever behaviors may help you to achieve your goal are more likely to be displayed in such a context than that of real life. There are no facial expressions to tap into our empathy mechanisms, we hear and see no distress, we are in fact distanced from the object of our behavior and as such divorced from the overall understanding that it may in fact affect someone.
Sure we can, and do, consciously understand that these individuals are at the other end of our screen. However, visceral responses, instinctual behaviors, etc. have a head-start on such thoughts.
Ohh and BTW, it is afterall just a game. Sure I can understand how something in game could potentially affect you in real life (afterall the same psychological mechanisms are affected on the part of the reciever of the behavior). However, if in fact what happens in game really hurts you a lot in real-life perhaps you need to find another outlet?
--Just a "clueless" Squire
Now I lay me down to sleep;
I pray Solomon my soul to keep.
If I should walk before I wake;
I pray that Simutronics a restore will make.
ZAIRIUS
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 06:15 PM CDT
>They included graverobbing in the game as a possibility because it reinforces reasons not to die. When you go hunting to gain ranks, do you whisper to the creatures, "Listen, I'll stab you and you die and you give me experience/treasure but please don't kill me."? No you don't because that's absurd. It's part of the RP of being in a midieval world. There are dangers, one of these is the danger of having your crap stolen by some guy if you die. All the more reason for you not to die.
Sure drawbacks to death are a good thing, but the possibility of being graverobbed is not only totally arbitrary but quite possibly put's a player in a state they can not recover from (loss of unique/sentimental objects).
>How is it fair? It isn't fair. Is it fair that I was walking along and got shot in the face by Elpazi when I first started to play? How about was it fair when I was walking to Haven and Grishnok took my head off? It's not fair, but it's part of the game. Part of the enjoyment of the game is the danger aspect of it. Graverobbing IS stealing. It is stealing items as opposed to gems/coins. Difference being, at any time in game you can kill me in an effort to retrieve the item. Most people don't kill 30 times over 2 plats stolen. It's just like stealing coins except the scales are higher. I have yet to be walked, but I've been pretty darned close to getting walked by people. It's a thrill really, and if I get walked it'll suck working to where I am now, but I'll still enjoy it.
If you actually stay in game and don't use mechanics to evade would be item retrievers then kudos to you. However a large proportion of graverobbers seems to have either be freshly rolled up throwaways(perhaps we need a skill check?) or those that abuse and use mechanics to evade capture until they can log out at the earliest convenience.
If graverobbing had some skill based check to actually accomplish it (and no grabbing item out of just opened grave that was opened by the owner) and ways for the victim to ascertain who stole their items and assign others to retrieve items and ways for people to realize that items were graverobbed so they can determine if they want to purchase them or not then maybe I can see graverobbing being more palpable.
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
Sure drawbacks to death are a good thing, but the possibility of being graverobbed is not only totally arbitrary but quite possibly put's a player in a state they can not recover from (loss of unique/sentimental objects).
>How is it fair? It isn't fair. Is it fair that I was walking along and got shot in the face by Elpazi when I first started to play? How about was it fair when I was walking to Haven and Grishnok took my head off? It's not fair, but it's part of the game. Part of the enjoyment of the game is the danger aspect of it. Graverobbing IS stealing. It is stealing items as opposed to gems/coins. Difference being, at any time in game you can kill me in an effort to retrieve the item. Most people don't kill 30 times over 2 plats stolen. It's just like stealing coins except the scales are higher. I have yet to be walked, but I've been pretty darned close to getting walked by people. It's a thrill really, and if I get walked it'll suck working to where I am now, but I'll still enjoy it.
If you actually stay in game and don't use mechanics to evade would be item retrievers then kudos to you. However a large proportion of graverobbers seems to have either be freshly rolled up throwaways(perhaps we need a skill check?) or those that abuse and use mechanics to evade capture until they can log out at the earliest convenience.
If graverobbing had some skill based check to actually accomplish it (and no grabbing item out of just opened grave that was opened by the owner) and ways for the victim to ascertain who stole their items and assign others to retrieve items and ways for people to realize that items were graverobbed so they can determine if they want to purchase them or not then maybe I can see graverobbing being more palpable.
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 06:31 PM CDT
And finally out comes a voice of reason, thank you Mr. Squire.
<<Sure drawbacks to death are a good thing, but the possibility of being graverobbed is not only totally arbitrary but quite possibly put's a player in a state they can not recover from (loss of unique/sentimental objects).>>
The idea of a person attatching a huge amount of sentiment to an item, ESPECIALLY one of text basis, is near sickening to me. If they love that item so much, they can do what other people usually get bored of. Track me down and try to murder me at every occasion.
<<If you actually stay in game and don't use mechanics to evade would be item retrievers then kudos to you. However a large proportion of graverobbers seems to have either be freshly rolled up throwaways(perhaps we need a skill check?) or those that abuse and use mechanics to evade capture until they can log out at the earliest convenience.>>
I'm not sure which mechanics you mean. Staying in no locate areas will get you a quick soul death. Hiding will get you a soul death if you stay in hiding for a long period of time. Being in a safe room for a long period will get you a soul death. Switching the item to another character will get you a warning and if you ask me, I can almost understand that being necessary. Otherwise I know I'd swap that item through ten of my friends and sell it to some sap. So I condone forcing us to actually hold the item for a while. The only way to evade capture currently is to run with a chicken with its head cut off and sit in areas people don't usually go. However, don't get too comfy because a moonbeam will slide into your room, a watergate will open, and you'll be a dead man. I can't really see what mechanics anyone could use to avoid capture nowadays. Heck, you can't even log out until 2 or 3 hours of chasing is done with. I don't even usually play for 2 or 3 hours at a time!
I almost like your idea for people being able to see that an object is graverobbed. That could go a long way towards starting a black market for items. Maybe even if there was a long involved process towards removing the "stain" from that item. Item laundering?
I completely despise the idea of a skill check to get into a grave, besides, it doesn't take a person long to hit 20th circle or so anyways.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
<<Sure drawbacks to death are a good thing, but the possibility of being graverobbed is not only totally arbitrary but quite possibly put's a player in a state they can not recover from (loss of unique/sentimental objects).>>
The idea of a person attatching a huge amount of sentiment to an item, ESPECIALLY one of text basis, is near sickening to me. If they love that item so much, they can do what other people usually get bored of. Track me down and try to murder me at every occasion.
<<If you actually stay in game and don't use mechanics to evade would be item retrievers then kudos to you. However a large proportion of graverobbers seems to have either be freshly rolled up throwaways(perhaps we need a skill check?) or those that abuse and use mechanics to evade capture until they can log out at the earliest convenience.>>
I'm not sure which mechanics you mean. Staying in no locate areas will get you a quick soul death. Hiding will get you a soul death if you stay in hiding for a long period of time. Being in a safe room for a long period will get you a soul death. Switching the item to another character will get you a warning and if you ask me, I can almost understand that being necessary. Otherwise I know I'd swap that item through ten of my friends and sell it to some sap. So I condone forcing us to actually hold the item for a while. The only way to evade capture currently is to run with a chicken with its head cut off and sit in areas people don't usually go. However, don't get too comfy because a moonbeam will slide into your room, a watergate will open, and you'll be a dead man. I can't really see what mechanics anyone could use to avoid capture nowadays. Heck, you can't even log out until 2 or 3 hours of chasing is done with. I don't even usually play for 2 or 3 hours at a time!
I almost like your idea for people being able to see that an object is graverobbed. That could go a long way towards starting a black market for items. Maybe even if there was a long involved process towards removing the "stain" from that item. Item laundering?
I completely despise the idea of a skill check to get into a grave, besides, it doesn't take a person long to hit 20th circle or so anyways.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
MIKEM1
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/01/2005 08:59 PM CDT
<<Otherwise I know I'd swap that item through ten of my friends and sell it to some sap.
Heh.
Heh.
XIZOR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 06:11 AM CDT
>>>>I find Graverobbing an -almost- fascinating behaviour, my fascination as a result of analagous behaviours that're illustrated in a multitude of games. I find this interesting, because if one pauses to consider these activities, they are prototypical sociopathic/psychopathic behaviour. What's now called Antisocial Behaviour.<<<<
You,have WAAAAY to much free time on yer hands.
Will,the puppetmaster behind...
Izzit
Master Tanner In Training
Asirin
Priest of Meraud
>tap my case
You tap an ebony lockpick case labeled "Evil Elf" that you are wearing.
You,have WAAAAY to much free time on yer hands.
Will,the puppetmaster behind...
Izzit
Master Tanner In Training
Asirin
Priest of Meraud
>tap my case
You tap an ebony lockpick case labeled "Evil Elf" that you are wearing.
SAKHARA
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 08:23 AM CDT
>Track me down and try to murder me at every occasion.
So then you grave rob from empaths. Perfectly safe. You see I don't see the 'fun' in killing someone, taking all their stuff and then laughing in their face. Or even more, what most grave robbers do is grab the stuff, hand it off to a throwaway novice and then resell it some place like DRSales.
And warnings? So what? These people don't care about warnings, all they care about is selling items that can bring them real life cash. If their account gets locked out, they use another card to open another account. <shrug>
I guess I just can't see what's 'fun' about that. Oh, sure, for the thief it's fun. They're making money. Real life money at that.
To me it is like stealing from working empaths who aren't married. You can just stand there and constantly steal from one. Even if they see you, there's nothing they can do without harming themselves more. Graverobbing is the same thing. Its cheap and easy thrills for the graverobber with no way for the person who'd been stolen from to retaliate, since by the time they get any assistance, the item gone on to a throwaway chara that no one can locate or find because no one knows their name.
>The idea of a person attatching a huge amount of sentiment to an item
Eh, but people do attach sentiment to items and other people. <shrug> Most people do care about things and people. From what I've heard, most do this, actually. Its because they like to remember good things about their past and past relationships. Items are reminders of those past events. At least that's how it works for a normal human being who has some concept of empathy and emotional attachment, or so I've been told.
So then you grave rob from empaths. Perfectly safe. You see I don't see the 'fun' in killing someone, taking all their stuff and then laughing in their face. Or even more, what most grave robbers do is grab the stuff, hand it off to a throwaway novice and then resell it some place like DRSales.
And warnings? So what? These people don't care about warnings, all they care about is selling items that can bring them real life cash. If their account gets locked out, they use another card to open another account. <shrug>
I guess I just can't see what's 'fun' about that. Oh, sure, for the thief it's fun. They're making money. Real life money at that.
To me it is like stealing from working empaths who aren't married. You can just stand there and constantly steal from one. Even if they see you, there's nothing they can do without harming themselves more. Graverobbing is the same thing. Its cheap and easy thrills for the graverobber with no way for the person who'd been stolen from to retaliate, since by the time they get any assistance, the item gone on to a throwaway chara that no one can locate or find because no one knows their name.
>The idea of a person attatching a huge amount of sentiment to an item
Eh, but people do attach sentiment to items and other people. <shrug> Most people do care about things and people. From what I've heard, most do this, actually. Its because they like to remember good things about their past and past relationships. Items are reminders of those past events. At least that's how it works for a normal human being who has some concept of empathy and emotional attachment, or so I've been told.
SYLER
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 09:59 AM CDT
<<You,have WAAAAY to much free time on yer hands.
...dude, we play a text based game ;)
...dude, we play a text based game ;)
IMPAVIKLIM
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 10:04 AM CDT
On the chess analogy: The biggest difference is that you were not one of the players of that game, you were a spectator. A player whose character robs a grave item is a player in the same game, playing within the rules of the game. Graverobbing is clearly spelled out within policy, and you have upto 3+ hours to retrieve your item(s). The hacking example covers this just as well, or better, but I wrote the above before reading the whole thread, so meh.
On harassment: The key word is persistently in that definition. If the same character is stalking (in the real world definition, not literally using the stalk verb) you, robbing you each time you die, then it can be considered harassment. A single occurence is not harassment.
>[Mrrar] Graverobbing should be outright banned... I feel that stealing, however, is okay, because the system manages it very well. There are effective ways to prevent it, and there are systems in existence which allow for NPC intervention.
You contradicted yourself here. First and foremost, graverobbing is stealing, however I'll concede the semantics point. Second, the system manages both very well, and graverobbing is weighted more in favor of the victim than coin stealing (I assume that's what you meant by stealing). As far as ways to prevent it, there are just as many preventive measures for graverobbing as there is coin theft. The easiest: don't die. There are also glyphs and resurrections. If you must depart, get someone to guard your grave before you return and don't dig it unless you trust the other folks in the room. These precautions are more effective than all but one preventive measure for coin theft, namely protect coin.
>[Fenildur] Being graverobbed is part of the world we play in, it is one of the reasons you are avoiding death. Get raised every time if you never want to risk it. Every time you go out to hunt or engage in any activity where you can die in game, it is like telling me, "sure, I feel like playing some cat and mouse."
Well said.
>LENNONJON's post
Very informative. I get the feeling you were holding alot back that could have been applied to this topic, but your succinct response added much.
>If graverobbing had some skill based check to actually accomplish it (and no grabbing item out of just opened grave that was opened by the owner) and ways for the victim to ascertain who stole their items and assign others to retrieve items and ways for people to realize that items were graverobbed so they can determine if they want to purchase them or not then maybe I can see graverobbing being more palpable.
This a reason the majority of players have others protect their graves, to get the name of the thief if not outright stop the theft. Graverobbing was once an even playing field between thief and victim, before graves were introduced. It's now so weighted in favor of the victim I'm surprised anyone robs a grave anymore.
>Sakhara's post
I'm tempted to let this one go so I'm not subjected to the imminent YHBT post, but what the heck, I have nothing better to do. I've never seen this activity, which isn't to say that it doesn't happen, but it's not so widespread that it affects but a very limited portion of the player population. As such, if you see such activity, or are a victim of such, your best recourse is to REPORT.
In conclusion: I haven't played a character that would even consider graverobbing for years now. However, that doesn't mean I don't feel that the risk of being graverobbed shouldn't be there, for a multitude of reasons. I support the mechanics as they stand (albeit the restrictions could be toned down a bit), even if I don't participate directly in them.
~Heroiklim Zortal, servant of the shrike
On harassment: The key word is persistently in that definition. If the same character is stalking (in the real world definition, not literally using the stalk verb) you, robbing you each time you die, then it can be considered harassment. A single occurence is not harassment.
>[Mrrar] Graverobbing should be outright banned... I feel that stealing, however, is okay, because the system manages it very well. There are effective ways to prevent it, and there are systems in existence which allow for NPC intervention.
You contradicted yourself here. First and foremost, graverobbing is stealing, however I'll concede the semantics point. Second, the system manages both very well, and graverobbing is weighted more in favor of the victim than coin stealing (I assume that's what you meant by stealing). As far as ways to prevent it, there are just as many preventive measures for graverobbing as there is coin theft. The easiest: don't die. There are also glyphs and resurrections. If you must depart, get someone to guard your grave before you return and don't dig it unless you trust the other folks in the room. These precautions are more effective than all but one preventive measure for coin theft, namely protect coin.
>[Fenildur] Being graverobbed is part of the world we play in, it is one of the reasons you are avoiding death. Get raised every time if you never want to risk it. Every time you go out to hunt or engage in any activity where you can die in game, it is like telling me, "sure, I feel like playing some cat and mouse."
Well said.
>LENNONJON's post
Very informative. I get the feeling you were holding alot back that could have been applied to this topic, but your succinct response added much.
>If graverobbing had some skill based check to actually accomplish it (and no grabbing item out of just opened grave that was opened by the owner) and ways for the victim to ascertain who stole their items and assign others to retrieve items and ways for people to realize that items were graverobbed so they can determine if they want to purchase them or not then maybe I can see graverobbing being more palpable.
This a reason the majority of players have others protect their graves, to get the name of the thief if not outright stop the theft. Graverobbing was once an even playing field between thief and victim, before graves were introduced. It's now so weighted in favor of the victim I'm surprised anyone robs a grave anymore.
>Sakhara's post
I'm tempted to let this one go so I'm not subjected to the imminent YHBT post, but what the heck, I have nothing better to do. I've never seen this activity, which isn't to say that it doesn't happen, but it's not so widespread that it affects but a very limited portion of the player population. As such, if you see such activity, or are a victim of such, your best recourse is to REPORT.
In conclusion: I haven't played a character that would even consider graverobbing for years now. However, that doesn't mean I don't feel that the risk of being graverobbed shouldn't be there, for a multitude of reasons. I support the mechanics as they stand (albeit the restrictions could be toned down a bit), even if I don't participate directly in them.
~Heroiklim Zortal, servant of the shrike
SYLER
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 10:09 AM CDT
<<but people do attach sentiment to items and other people.
I agree.
I think it's silly to say, people shouldn't be sentimental about their characters...
It's like saying, if a Writer loses his stories (his stories he wasn't going to publish) in a fire, then well, he better just get over it! After all, they're just words, they're just make believe.
Everything you do, you create, you possess in some fashion has the capacity for sentimental value. My graverobbing friend, you -yourself- said that different people have different value systems. Just because you think it's ridiculous that they place value on a Cloak, doesn't mean that you have the -right- to take it from them.
That you believe they shouldn't get upset, doesn't mean that they won't. It doesn't mean that you -are- upsetting them and potentially causing emotional stress to another human being. When you have such an easy ability to -prevent- that stress, you continue to do it, fully knowing, completely aware that you're in some way hurting them. This is the very definition of callous.
The repurcussions I was interpretting in the earlier definition of antisocial behaviour was not the repurcussion of being killed, but the -emotional- repurcussion of having hurt another human being. If I hurt someone else, I feel guilt and remorse. When I PvP (confrontational), my hands get a little cold, because I really don't want to hinder someone else's gaming experience, and inevitably they get upset. "HEY you cheated blah blah blah" and so forth, regardless of the validity of their emotional state, they've become upset. I could have prevented it...
There are naturally points where such a smoothing of emotions becomes overbearing, such as in a case where someone demands another make a sacrifice. You aren't making a sacrifice by making sure someone wants their items stolen, wants to roleplay that out. You are forcing another human being, regardless of their playing a game or not, to make a sacrifice when you take an item from a character -they own-, don't forget this is essentially their property even if it is digital, and thereby upsetting them...
It is wrong to hurt people. I'm willing to take moral absolutes. Relativism grew boring..
The policy is broken. Systems need to be refurbished, and Graverobbing needs to be remporarily nullified until fair OOC consent based systems exist that allow for the 'game' of graverobbing to be functional.
Graverobbing should be handled just like PvP. Consent needs to be granted, or it's wrong. Then, you can get your policy that makes things more 'balanced' for the graverobber. And then I can honestly say, once that is accomplished, once the graverobber is sanctioned by the graverobbed, it is no longer a matter of antisocial behaviour, but roleplaying.
Mrrar
I agree.
I think it's silly to say, people shouldn't be sentimental about their characters...
It's like saying, if a Writer loses his stories (his stories he wasn't going to publish) in a fire, then well, he better just get over it! After all, they're just words, they're just make believe.
Everything you do, you create, you possess in some fashion has the capacity for sentimental value. My graverobbing friend, you -yourself- said that different people have different value systems. Just because you think it's ridiculous that they place value on a Cloak, doesn't mean that you have the -right- to take it from them.
That you believe they shouldn't get upset, doesn't mean that they won't. It doesn't mean that you -are- upsetting them and potentially causing emotional stress to another human being. When you have such an easy ability to -prevent- that stress, you continue to do it, fully knowing, completely aware that you're in some way hurting them. This is the very definition of callous.
The repurcussions I was interpretting in the earlier definition of antisocial behaviour was not the repurcussion of being killed, but the -emotional- repurcussion of having hurt another human being. If I hurt someone else, I feel guilt and remorse. When I PvP (confrontational), my hands get a little cold, because I really don't want to hinder someone else's gaming experience, and inevitably they get upset. "HEY you cheated blah blah blah" and so forth, regardless of the validity of their emotional state, they've become upset. I could have prevented it...
There are naturally points where such a smoothing of emotions becomes overbearing, such as in a case where someone demands another make a sacrifice. You aren't making a sacrifice by making sure someone wants their items stolen, wants to roleplay that out. You are forcing another human being, regardless of their playing a game or not, to make a sacrifice when you take an item from a character -they own-, don't forget this is essentially their property even if it is digital, and thereby upsetting them...
It is wrong to hurt people. I'm willing to take moral absolutes. Relativism grew boring..
The policy is broken. Systems need to be refurbished, and Graverobbing needs to be remporarily nullified until fair OOC consent based systems exist that allow for the 'game' of graverobbing to be functional.
Graverobbing should be handled just like PvP. Consent needs to be granted, or it's wrong. Then, you can get your policy that makes things more 'balanced' for the graverobber. And then I can honestly say, once that is accomplished, once the graverobber is sanctioned by the graverobbed, it is no longer a matter of antisocial behaviour, but roleplaying.
Mrrar
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 12:23 PM CDT
<<So then you grave rob from empaths. Perfectly safe. You see I don't see the 'fun' in killing someone, taking all their stuff and then laughing in their face. Or even more, what most grave robbers do is grab the stuff, hand it off to a throwaway novice and then resell it some place like DRSales.>>
Except the first and only time I've ever GRed an empath was when he was being a yutz in the first place. So lets talk about that experience here. When the bugger finally found me, I was Nissa's Bonded, sleeping, burned, hacked with a scimitar, shot, and killed. Some guy came by and gated with a drag to clerics, thankfully not knowing what the situation was, and I got out of it with a glyph to protect my stolen goods. 3 separate people attacked me, none with consent. Why does this not matter? Because it's an empath, and people love avenging other people for empaths. Nevermind the fact that he was shooting his mouth off earlier, he can't attack back so it isn't fair. Did I report about this? Not a chance. Empaths I believe already have a right to have a champion of some sort for these matters. This business of handing the items off to throwaway characters is nonsense as well. It gets you locked out for 1, and the item taken back for seconds.
<<And warnings? So what? These people don't care about warnings, all they care about is selling items that can bring them real life cash. If their account gets locked out, they use another card to open another account. <shrug>>>
Where do you get this garbage? I for one haven't ever sold a thing they've GRed for RL cash, but if I do I guess woohoo for them. They'll make what... 5 bucks? That's a huge amount of cash for 3 hours of work, yes it is. The DR system also tracks name and address as well as card number, so I have a feeling they'll run out of cards pretty quick.
<<To me it is like stealing from working empaths who aren't married. You can just stand there and constantly steal from one. Even if they see you, there's nothing they can do without harming themselves more. Graverobbing is the same thing. Its cheap and easy thrills for the graverobber with no way for the person who'd been stolen from to retaliate, since by the time they get any assistance, the item gone on to a throwaway chara that no one can locate or find because no one knows their name.>>
First of all, empaths don't die very often so they aren't often targeted. Second they usually don't have items worth having half the realms chase you for 3 hours calling you an empath killer. Do you understand how bothersome it is having NO ONE in the empath guild heal you because you graverobbed an empath? It's no little annoyance really, going to the autopath with disease NEVER works. So cheap and easy thrills? Not so much. What would the thrill be in taking from someone who wouldn't have a thing to do to get it back anyways? And with the "throwaway character" business, that doesn't happen, it gets you a lockout. Just report if you think this happened and say, "I was GRed, can you check and make sure so and so still has the item? I think he switched it to a throwaway." There, damage undone.
<<Eh, but people do attach sentiment to items and other people. <shrug> Most people do care about things and people. From what I've heard, most do this, actually. Its because they like to remember good things about their past and past relationships. Items are reminders of those past events. At least that's how it works for a normal human being who has some concept of empathy and emotional attachment, or so I've been told.>>
Yes, they do. If I were to have one of my altered items stolen, I'd be pretty POed for a bit. So POed that I'd hunt the guy who stole it down every chance I got till I got it back. Would it really effect my life though? Hardly. I'd actually have a lot of fun hunting the guy down, it'd actually be a rush for sure. The next time you're feeling down in life, and you think, "I know how to make this all better!! I'll go IG, sit in an Inn, look through my inventory and check the description of my ring that so and so gave me, then I'll reread it over and over and type rub ring a few times, everything will be great!!" you need to log off and go see a psychiatrist. You keep what's in game in game. You CHARACTER misses those items, not you. Don't take what's IG to an OOC level, or you end up casting spells and leaning on people everything three seconds.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
Except the first and only time I've ever GRed an empath was when he was being a yutz in the first place. So lets talk about that experience here. When the bugger finally found me, I was Nissa's Bonded, sleeping, burned, hacked with a scimitar, shot, and killed. Some guy came by and gated with a drag to clerics, thankfully not knowing what the situation was, and I got out of it with a glyph to protect my stolen goods. 3 separate people attacked me, none with consent. Why does this not matter? Because it's an empath, and people love avenging other people for empaths. Nevermind the fact that he was shooting his mouth off earlier, he can't attack back so it isn't fair. Did I report about this? Not a chance. Empaths I believe already have a right to have a champion of some sort for these matters. This business of handing the items off to throwaway characters is nonsense as well. It gets you locked out for 1, and the item taken back for seconds.
<<And warnings? So what? These people don't care about warnings, all they care about is selling items that can bring them real life cash. If their account gets locked out, they use another card to open another account. <shrug>>>
Where do you get this garbage? I for one haven't ever sold a thing they've GRed for RL cash, but if I do I guess woohoo for them. They'll make what... 5 bucks? That's a huge amount of cash for 3 hours of work, yes it is. The DR system also tracks name and address as well as card number, so I have a feeling they'll run out of cards pretty quick.
<<To me it is like stealing from working empaths who aren't married. You can just stand there and constantly steal from one. Even if they see you, there's nothing they can do without harming themselves more. Graverobbing is the same thing. Its cheap and easy thrills for the graverobber with no way for the person who'd been stolen from to retaliate, since by the time they get any assistance, the item gone on to a throwaway chara that no one can locate or find because no one knows their name.>>
First of all, empaths don't die very often so they aren't often targeted. Second they usually don't have items worth having half the realms chase you for 3 hours calling you an empath killer. Do you understand how bothersome it is having NO ONE in the empath guild heal you because you graverobbed an empath? It's no little annoyance really, going to the autopath with disease NEVER works. So cheap and easy thrills? Not so much. What would the thrill be in taking from someone who wouldn't have a thing to do to get it back anyways? And with the "throwaway character" business, that doesn't happen, it gets you a lockout. Just report if you think this happened and say, "I was GRed, can you check and make sure so and so still has the item? I think he switched it to a throwaway." There, damage undone.
<<Eh, but people do attach sentiment to items and other people. <shrug> Most people do care about things and people. From what I've heard, most do this, actually. Its because they like to remember good things about their past and past relationships. Items are reminders of those past events. At least that's how it works for a normal human being who has some concept of empathy and emotional attachment, or so I've been told.>>
Yes, they do. If I were to have one of my altered items stolen, I'd be pretty POed for a bit. So POed that I'd hunt the guy who stole it down every chance I got till I got it back. Would it really effect my life though? Hardly. I'd actually have a lot of fun hunting the guy down, it'd actually be a rush for sure. The next time you're feeling down in life, and you think, "I know how to make this all better!! I'll go IG, sit in an Inn, look through my inventory and check the description of my ring that so and so gave me, then I'll reread it over and over and type rub ring a few times, everything will be great!!" you need to log off and go see a psychiatrist. You keep what's in game in game. You CHARACTER misses those items, not you. Don't take what's IG to an OOC level, or you end up casting spells and leaning on people everything three seconds.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
ALDEN
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 12:27 PM CDT
"Everything you do, you create, you possess in some fashion has the capacity for sentimental value."
So true. The Grave Robbing Afficionado(GRA)obviously takes great pleasure in text-grave robbing text based objects- yet has nothing but disdain for those who take great pleasure from those same text based objects. I suspect that GRA will never see the hypocracy.
And I have read GRA's posts where he/she claims the only reason he/she grave robs is for the thrill of the chase. I am not sure whether GRA really believes it, or is just blowing smoke to cover his/her sheer pleasure at causing discomfort to others. Why even the make the post trying to rationalize himself/herself?
Listen- I don't have a huge problem with grave robbing nowadays. Since I am rarely in the Crossing, I haven't seen many throwaway characters. If your character truly isn't doing any of the workarounds to make it impossible to for characters to search you out and if you aren't turning around and selling your loot for real $, I don't care that much. But don't hide behind some claim that you do it only for your joy in the chase. You enjoy the squirming and discomfort of your victims as much as you do the chase.
Flavius's player- who has no reason to hide his characters name.
So true. The Grave Robbing Afficionado(GRA)obviously takes great pleasure in text-grave robbing text based objects- yet has nothing but disdain for those who take great pleasure from those same text based objects. I suspect that GRA will never see the hypocracy.
And I have read GRA's posts where he/she claims the only reason he/she grave robs is for the thrill of the chase. I am not sure whether GRA really believes it, or is just blowing smoke to cover his/her sheer pleasure at causing discomfort to others. Why even the make the post trying to rationalize himself/herself?
Listen- I don't have a huge problem with grave robbing nowadays. Since I am rarely in the Crossing, I haven't seen many throwaway characters. If your character truly isn't doing any of the workarounds to make it impossible to for characters to search you out and if you aren't turning around and selling your loot for real $, I don't care that much. But don't hide behind some claim that you do it only for your joy in the chase. You enjoy the squirming and discomfort of your victims as much as you do the chase.
Flavius's player- who has no reason to hide his characters name.
ZAIRIUS
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 01:07 PM CDT
Simu must take into account that people do get attached to their items with their system of alterations and one of a kind auctions. So there needs to be a system of marking items as graverobbed when they are taken.
Also as for a skill/circle requirement to steal that's to make sure the graverobber has some stake in their character to risk graverobbing. It's easy to risk say a circle 5 character in graverobbing but how many people will open themselves up to constant attack and possible walking if they were 70th circle? This would also put up a large speed bump to those that just keep making new low level circle characters to graverob.
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
Also as for a skill/circle requirement to steal that's to make sure the graverobber has some stake in their character to risk graverobbing. It's easy to risk say a circle 5 character in graverobbing but how many people will open themselves up to constant attack and possible walking if they were 70th circle? This would also put up a large speed bump to those that just keep making new low level circle characters to graverob.
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
SAKHARA
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 01:10 PM CDT
Ok, so you're the one in a hundred who doesn't use GR to harass or report when someone actually does anything in retaliation. Yeah, right, pull the other one. Uh huh, like I'm going to believe any of these stable sweepings.
>Do you understand how bothersome it is having NO ONE in the empath guild heal you because you graverobbed an empath?
So what?! You're never going to play the character again. Big deal. Its a cheap thrill with no cost to the grave robber. Even if you don't hand off, a just rolled up chara out of the CM doesn't have anything to loose in grave robbing anyways. There's a real big thrill. Stealing stuff people have worked for with the greatest risk being that you have to spend 30 seconds rolling up another chara. Big whoop. But the payback is so big, stealing something irreplaceable. That's fun, right? Laugh at the poor fool who looses the last momento of his best IG friend who died in real life two years ago or the altered cloak given to her by her IG husband whose player is undergoing open heart surgery in real life. Yeah, that's lots of fun to remind people that its just a game and that the people behind the characters don't matter. That its actually sick to put any value on momentoes because they aren't the person in question.
Definately an attitude that would help someone who's house has burned down or flooded. Yup, good thing there. Remember, if it isn't real, it doesn't mean anything. Pictures, books, videos, eh, they're not real. So what they burned or were distroyed. They're not real people.
>So POed that I'd hunt the guy who stole it down every chance I got till I got it back.
So you really think its even going to exist anymore? Oh, get real. The instant a grave robber grabs it, its gone.
>I'd actually have a lot of fun hunting the guy down
How? The character no longer exists after they grabbed the stuff. Or after 3 hours, or whatever. The item is gone. Easiest and most 'fun' is to graverob stuff, put it in the backpack of a throwaway and have the throwaway die with it in a hidden spot. That way the janitor will get it. Isn't that fun? Bah.
You sound like you really believe some of this crud that graverobbers do it for the fun of everyone involved ... which is total nonsense. The point of graverobbing is to harass and irritate players. I have yet to see, ever, any graverobber without a novice title or even anything on them other than maybe a backpack and their starting gear. That's not a played character, that's a throwaway expressly rolled up to harass people.
GR, as it stands, is inherently OOC. Its a way for players to harass and irritate other players without risking anything. It has nothing to do with role playing or character interaction because there is none. Chara 'a' grabs stuff out of grave. Run chara 'a' up and down the NTR at random for 3 hours on a script. Ta-da. Even if chara gets caught, no big loss. Roll up chara 'b' and try again.
>Do you understand how bothersome it is having NO ONE in the empath guild heal you because you graverobbed an empath?
So what?! You're never going to play the character again. Big deal. Its a cheap thrill with no cost to the grave robber. Even if you don't hand off, a just rolled up chara out of the CM doesn't have anything to loose in grave robbing anyways. There's a real big thrill. Stealing stuff people have worked for with the greatest risk being that you have to spend 30 seconds rolling up another chara. Big whoop. But the payback is so big, stealing something irreplaceable. That's fun, right? Laugh at the poor fool who looses the last momento of his best IG friend who died in real life two years ago or the altered cloak given to her by her IG husband whose player is undergoing open heart surgery in real life. Yeah, that's lots of fun to remind people that its just a game and that the people behind the characters don't matter. That its actually sick to put any value on momentoes because they aren't the person in question.
Definately an attitude that would help someone who's house has burned down or flooded. Yup, good thing there. Remember, if it isn't real, it doesn't mean anything. Pictures, books, videos, eh, they're not real. So what they burned or were distroyed. They're not real people.
>So POed that I'd hunt the guy who stole it down every chance I got till I got it back.
So you really think its even going to exist anymore? Oh, get real. The instant a grave robber grabs it, its gone.
>I'd actually have a lot of fun hunting the guy down
How? The character no longer exists after they grabbed the stuff. Or after 3 hours, or whatever. The item is gone. Easiest and most 'fun' is to graverob stuff, put it in the backpack of a throwaway and have the throwaway die with it in a hidden spot. That way the janitor will get it. Isn't that fun? Bah.
You sound like you really believe some of this crud that graverobbers do it for the fun of everyone involved ... which is total nonsense. The point of graverobbing is to harass and irritate players. I have yet to see, ever, any graverobber without a novice title or even anything on them other than maybe a backpack and their starting gear. That's not a played character, that's a throwaway expressly rolled up to harass people.
GR, as it stands, is inherently OOC. Its a way for players to harass and irritate other players without risking anything. It has nothing to do with role playing or character interaction because there is none. Chara 'a' grabs stuff out of grave. Run chara 'a' up and down the NTR at random for 3 hours on a script. Ta-da. Even if chara gets caught, no big loss. Roll up chara 'b' and try again.
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 01:13 PM CDT
<<I think it's silly to say, people shouldn't be sentimental about their characters...>>
Sure, a bit of sentimentality, fine. What you're talking about is a whole different level than I am. You're yacking about people getting severely distressed IRL because something in a fluid GAME environment has changed, which they knew could happen at any point, and now they're worse off for it. To be emotionally broken because of having a piece of your character taken from you (which actually opens the path for new interactions with a person, IE hunting them down) is absurd.
<<It's like saying, if a Writer loses his stories (his stories he wasn't going to publish) in a fire, then well, he better just get over it! After all, they're just words, they're just make believe.>>
This example is almost as bad as your chess example. So he's not going to publish these works is the first example. Of course, I don't know any writers who aren't looking to be published at one point or another. My father being a writer, I'm sure he'd find the idea of not getting published and paid for your talents absurd. Going past that, because this is correlated to DR, that he isn't the only guy writing his story. He sits in this house with 1000 or so other people who all have pens and whiteout and their own idea of where this story goes. Now we call the story "Dragonrealms" and instead of using pens and paper and people inside his house, he uses his computer to connect to the internet to edit his story. He then finds his story changed. Not "lost" as you put it, which would be again as if someone had deleted his character and said "no restore for you." He finds his story changed. He wants to change that back, he's going to need to either go with the flow of the current story how it is now, or do some severe editing to get his part of the story back to where it was. You never lose anything in DR, your story just changes.
<<Everything you do, you create, you possess in some fashion has the capacity for sentimental value. My graverobbing friend, you -yourself- said that different people have different value systems. Just because you think it's ridiculous that they place value on a Cloak, doesn't mean that you have the -right- to take it from them.>>
I value my money, does that give the IRS the right to take it? No, being in America gives the IRS the right to take your money. Being in Elanthia gives people the right to steal from you and gives you the right to retaliate. What is so hard about understanding this? You are playing a game in which Graverobbing is a reality, as is murder, stealing, and magic. If you don't want to be graverobbed, I repeat "STOP DYING." Get a glyph or a raise instead of departing. Instant you die, you are admitting to me that "Yes, I'd really like you to steal that so I can chase you all around and try and get it back." You stop dying, and I'll stop graverobbing your stuff.
<<That you believe they shouldn't get upset, doesn't mean that they won't. It doesn't mean that you -are- upsetting them and potentially causing emotional stress to another human being. When you have such an easy ability to -prevent- that stress, you continue to do it, fully knowing, completely aware that you're in some way hurting them. This is the very definition of callous. >>
2. Emotionally hardened; unfeeling: a callous indifference to the suffering of others.
I'm betting that's the definition you meant, but you're still wrong. What I am doing would be better shown by the word "malicious" meaning not only am I unsympathetic to the reasons they could be upset, I'm deliberatly doing it to them to get them to chase me down so I have a good time. Lets say you go to the gym to play some tea party with your friends. Me and a bunch of other guys are playing a game of dodgeball. You are sitting minding your own business with your teddy bear, so most of the other guys on my team ignore you, and the guys on your side just kind of step around you. I however do not ignore you. You are on the other side of the line from me in my court baby, so I peg you full on in the head with a dodgeball rocketing from my arm. You've got three options. 1. Pick that dodgeball up, run across the line, and give me a whipping. 2. Cry about it to your carebear friends, and just get whacked again sometime later. 3. Not play teaparty in the middle of an arena where dodgeball is an acceptable game to play.
<<The repurcussions I was interpretting in the earlier definition of antisocial behaviour was not the repurcussion of being killed, but the -emotional- repurcussion of having hurt another human being. If I hurt someone else, I feel guilt and remorse. When I PvP (confrontational), my hands get a little cold, because I really don't want to hinder someone else's gaming experience, and inevitably they get upset. "HEY you cheated blah blah blah" and so forth, regardless of the validity of their emotional state, they've become upset. I could have prevented it...>>
You sound like the same kind of person who doesn't yell when there are plants around because you read that yelling around plants makes them not as healthy. Not that you don't want to yell, you're just worried about those poor plants. Listen to me, let me try and explain this to you. I'm trying all the metaphors I can here. Lets use Monopoly. Lets say you want to play Monopoly with me and some friends, and your only goal in the game is that you want to build hotels on the pink squares because pink is your favorite color. The whole game, that's your goal. You happen to land on my Boardwalk with hotels baby, do you really expect me not to charge you the full 2 Grand? "No, don't worry Mrrar, you don't have to pay, I know how much you love your hotels on your stuff, I won't make you mortgage them." NO! Your way of having fun is building hotels, mine is charging you rent when you land on my squares. Both are completely sanctioned by the rules, are you going to tell me that's wrong because you're saddened by the loss of your hotels?
<<There are naturally points where such a smoothing of emotions becomes overbearing, such as in a case where someone demands another make a sacrifice. You aren't making a sacrifice by making sure someone wants their items stolen, wants to roleplay that out. You are forcing another human being, regardless of their playing a game or not, to make a sacrifice when you take an item from a character -they own-, don't forget this is essentially their property even if it is digital, and thereby upsetting them...>>
I'm not making a sacrifice? I'm paying 35 odd bucks a month. Totals out to $1,750 dollars for the length of time I've played, at least. This isn't a sacrifice? How about you just send me a check in the mail then eh? Then there's the sacrifice of time involved in GRing someone. 3 hours in game. Running from someone. Then the time I've put into finding good spots to run to that are remote. Then the sacrifice of having to run around in game always hidden because 7 or 8 people online at the time are looking to take it out of your hide any way they can. Then you start yacking about characters that "you own." You do not own these characters, they are rentals for one. You're paying for the time and I'm making your time not as fun, but that was in the contract when you first signed the lease. If you got a nice deal on a car, but every so often the car would randomly not start for an hour unless you danced around in public with a coon tailed hat on your head screaming, "THE FRENCH ESKIMOS ARE COMING TO KILL US ALL!!!" you'd be annoyed for sure. This was however in the contract to begin with. You signed that lease knowing it would happen and what you would have to do to make your car start again, don't call the dealership complaining that you didn't read the lease details.
<<It is wrong to hurt people. I'm willing to take moral absolutes. Relativism grew boring..>>
-Relativism- is -for- weenies, sure. So we'll -take- relativism out of the question here. -You- are -hurting- me by making blanket statements -and- typing with emphasis on words that I could only describe as Shatnerism at this point. Lets draw another picture for you Mrrar. You go to enter a tournament, you lose. Was the other person supposed to let you win so you didn't feel bad about things? He could have prevented it afterall. I don't play Dragonrealms for YOUR enjoyment, I play Dragonrealms so that I can have a good time. If you get bent out of shape because I'm playing the game within the ways it was meant to be played, then that's your problem. "I swear--by my life and my love of it-- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Don't ask me to play the game so you have fun Mrrar, only ask me to play within the rules.
The policy is FAR from broken, there are numerous ways to avoid being graverobbed. Glyphs, raises, bonded weapons, etc. Lets make this a game about roleplaying again. I'm roleplaying a graverobber. I don't ask your permission to steal your things just like a thief doesn't ask permission to steal items from the museum, and a Velver doesn't ask my permission to shoot me in the face during an invasion. How boring would invasions be if there was no danger? How fun would this game be if they renamed it "huggabear realms"? It's a rhetorical question, the answer is "not very."
Graverobbing is theft and should be handled as such. It requires no consent, not even any reason except that the thief wants to and you're a good target. The graverobber doesn't need to be sanctioned by his victims, only by Policy.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
Sure, a bit of sentimentality, fine. What you're talking about is a whole different level than I am. You're yacking about people getting severely distressed IRL because something in a fluid GAME environment has changed, which they knew could happen at any point, and now they're worse off for it. To be emotionally broken because of having a piece of your character taken from you (which actually opens the path for new interactions with a person, IE hunting them down) is absurd.
<<It's like saying, if a Writer loses his stories (his stories he wasn't going to publish) in a fire, then well, he better just get over it! After all, they're just words, they're just make believe.>>
This example is almost as bad as your chess example. So he's not going to publish these works is the first example. Of course, I don't know any writers who aren't looking to be published at one point or another. My father being a writer, I'm sure he'd find the idea of not getting published and paid for your talents absurd. Going past that, because this is correlated to DR, that he isn't the only guy writing his story. He sits in this house with 1000 or so other people who all have pens and whiteout and their own idea of where this story goes. Now we call the story "Dragonrealms" and instead of using pens and paper and people inside his house, he uses his computer to connect to the internet to edit his story. He then finds his story changed. Not "lost" as you put it, which would be again as if someone had deleted his character and said "no restore for you." He finds his story changed. He wants to change that back, he's going to need to either go with the flow of the current story how it is now, or do some severe editing to get his part of the story back to where it was. You never lose anything in DR, your story just changes.
<<Everything you do, you create, you possess in some fashion has the capacity for sentimental value. My graverobbing friend, you -yourself- said that different people have different value systems. Just because you think it's ridiculous that they place value on a Cloak, doesn't mean that you have the -right- to take it from them.>>
I value my money, does that give the IRS the right to take it? No, being in America gives the IRS the right to take your money. Being in Elanthia gives people the right to steal from you and gives you the right to retaliate. What is so hard about understanding this? You are playing a game in which Graverobbing is a reality, as is murder, stealing, and magic. If you don't want to be graverobbed, I repeat "STOP DYING." Get a glyph or a raise instead of departing. Instant you die, you are admitting to me that "Yes, I'd really like you to steal that so I can chase you all around and try and get it back." You stop dying, and I'll stop graverobbing your stuff.
<<That you believe they shouldn't get upset, doesn't mean that they won't. It doesn't mean that you -are- upsetting them and potentially causing emotional stress to another human being. When you have such an easy ability to -prevent- that stress, you continue to do it, fully knowing, completely aware that you're in some way hurting them. This is the very definition of callous. >>
2. Emotionally hardened; unfeeling: a callous indifference to the suffering of others.
I'm betting that's the definition you meant, but you're still wrong. What I am doing would be better shown by the word "malicious" meaning not only am I unsympathetic to the reasons they could be upset, I'm deliberatly doing it to them to get them to chase me down so I have a good time. Lets say you go to the gym to play some tea party with your friends. Me and a bunch of other guys are playing a game of dodgeball. You are sitting minding your own business with your teddy bear, so most of the other guys on my team ignore you, and the guys on your side just kind of step around you. I however do not ignore you. You are on the other side of the line from me in my court baby, so I peg you full on in the head with a dodgeball rocketing from my arm. You've got three options. 1. Pick that dodgeball up, run across the line, and give me a whipping. 2. Cry about it to your carebear friends, and just get whacked again sometime later. 3. Not play teaparty in the middle of an arena where dodgeball is an acceptable game to play.
<<The repurcussions I was interpretting in the earlier definition of antisocial behaviour was not the repurcussion of being killed, but the -emotional- repurcussion of having hurt another human being. If I hurt someone else, I feel guilt and remorse. When I PvP (confrontational), my hands get a little cold, because I really don't want to hinder someone else's gaming experience, and inevitably they get upset. "HEY you cheated blah blah blah" and so forth, regardless of the validity of their emotional state, they've become upset. I could have prevented it...>>
You sound like the same kind of person who doesn't yell when there are plants around because you read that yelling around plants makes them not as healthy. Not that you don't want to yell, you're just worried about those poor plants. Listen to me, let me try and explain this to you. I'm trying all the metaphors I can here. Lets use Monopoly. Lets say you want to play Monopoly with me and some friends, and your only goal in the game is that you want to build hotels on the pink squares because pink is your favorite color. The whole game, that's your goal. You happen to land on my Boardwalk with hotels baby, do you really expect me not to charge you the full 2 Grand? "No, don't worry Mrrar, you don't have to pay, I know how much you love your hotels on your stuff, I won't make you mortgage them." NO! Your way of having fun is building hotels, mine is charging you rent when you land on my squares. Both are completely sanctioned by the rules, are you going to tell me that's wrong because you're saddened by the loss of your hotels?
<<There are naturally points where such a smoothing of emotions becomes overbearing, such as in a case where someone demands another make a sacrifice. You aren't making a sacrifice by making sure someone wants their items stolen, wants to roleplay that out. You are forcing another human being, regardless of their playing a game or not, to make a sacrifice when you take an item from a character -they own-, don't forget this is essentially their property even if it is digital, and thereby upsetting them...>>
I'm not making a sacrifice? I'm paying 35 odd bucks a month. Totals out to $1,750 dollars for the length of time I've played, at least. This isn't a sacrifice? How about you just send me a check in the mail then eh? Then there's the sacrifice of time involved in GRing someone. 3 hours in game. Running from someone. Then the time I've put into finding good spots to run to that are remote. Then the sacrifice of having to run around in game always hidden because 7 or 8 people online at the time are looking to take it out of your hide any way they can. Then you start yacking about characters that "you own." You do not own these characters, they are rentals for one. You're paying for the time and I'm making your time not as fun, but that was in the contract when you first signed the lease. If you got a nice deal on a car, but every so often the car would randomly not start for an hour unless you danced around in public with a coon tailed hat on your head screaming, "THE FRENCH ESKIMOS ARE COMING TO KILL US ALL!!!" you'd be annoyed for sure. This was however in the contract to begin with. You signed that lease knowing it would happen and what you would have to do to make your car start again, don't call the dealership complaining that you didn't read the lease details.
<<It is wrong to hurt people. I'm willing to take moral absolutes. Relativism grew boring..>>
-Relativism- is -for- weenies, sure. So we'll -take- relativism out of the question here. -You- are -hurting- me by making blanket statements -and- typing with emphasis on words that I could only describe as Shatnerism at this point. Lets draw another picture for you Mrrar. You go to enter a tournament, you lose. Was the other person supposed to let you win so you didn't feel bad about things? He could have prevented it afterall. I don't play Dragonrealms for YOUR enjoyment, I play Dragonrealms so that I can have a good time. If you get bent out of shape because I'm playing the game within the ways it was meant to be played, then that's your problem. "I swear--by my life and my love of it-- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Don't ask me to play the game so you have fun Mrrar, only ask me to play within the rules.
The policy is FAR from broken, there are numerous ways to avoid being graverobbed. Glyphs, raises, bonded weapons, etc. Lets make this a game about roleplaying again. I'm roleplaying a graverobber. I don't ask your permission to steal your things just like a thief doesn't ask permission to steal items from the museum, and a Velver doesn't ask my permission to shoot me in the face during an invasion. How boring would invasions be if there was no danger? How fun would this game be if they renamed it "huggabear realms"? It's a rhetorical question, the answer is "not very."
Graverobbing is theft and should be handled as such. It requires no consent, not even any reason except that the thief wants to and you're a good target. The graverobber doesn't need to be sanctioned by his victims, only by Policy.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 01:50 PM CDT
<<Ok, so you're the one in a hundred who doesn't use GR to harass or report when someone actually does anything in retaliation. Yeah, right, pull the other one. Uh huh, like I'm going to believe any of these stable sweepings.>
Have you been reading any of these posts? Do you know how to define harassment? It's a one time thing. If I walked around slapping you, stalking you, waiting for you to die, taunting you, and then repeatedly stealing your things. THAT is harassment. Where do you people get all these babagem about rerolling and throwaway characters? For one thing, my secondary, a necromancer to be sometime, can't even Graverob for the simple reason of being circle 1 or below, you can't reach into graves. Another thing being as soon as I'm thumped by anyone, I drop to my knees and whatever I'm holding drops as well, if I'm below circle 5. My character currently is 22nd circle. I know you all say woohoo, that takes like 2 weeks. I've taken a few years getting to this circle. First because he wasn't my main before, but mainly because I never train. Training isn't fun for me at all. Roleplaying, being hunted, is for certain. I enjoy the fact that I can't move through Crossing without being hidden and peering into most of the big rooms. You're even missing the point of the "thrill of the chase." If I wasn't risking something, where would be my reward? If I didn't care about it, I wouldn't enjoy running away so much and hiding and acting like a thief SHOULD act. There is no "payback" for me. I've never once sold anything to people outside of the game for real cash. I think anyone BUYING items in game with RL cash is insane really. It's being done for the thrill of the chase. Where's the thrill if I don't care about my character?
<<Laugh at the poor fool who looses the last momento of his best IG friend who died in real life two years ago or the altered cloak given to her by her IG husband whose player is undergoing open heart surgery in real life. Yeah, that's lots of fun to remind people that its just a game and that the people behind the characters don't matter. That its actually sick to put any value on momentoes because they aren't the person in question.>>
You want a momento? Log your gameplay. Read your logs. Those logs are just as real as the text IG. Are you telling me you're going to keep your DR character till the day you die, just sitting there on your subscription so you can occasionally log on and remember "the good times"? People behind the characters matter. What also matters is that they understand that this IS NOT real life, that this is a game, and they should expect to accept what happens within the game. Graverobbing is part of the death system in DR. It is one of the reasons you try NOT to die. If you love the item so much that you'll cry and lose your soul or whatever if it's gone, VAULT IT. Stick it in your house, whatever. Or even, never leave a safe room! Don't go hunting. Don't overheal people. DO NOT DO ANYTHING IN WHICH IT IS POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DIE. There, now you're having safe fun with your little toy! Of course, this is boring because there's no element of danger associated with it.
<<Definately an attitude that would help someone who's house has burned down or flooded. Yup, good thing there. Remember, if it isn't real, it doesn't mean anything. Pictures, books, videos, eh, they're not real. So what they burned or were distroyed. They're not real people.>>
You know, I'm really not sure where you're trying to go with this, but you aren't getting there fast. What you're really describing DR equivalent wise is a server crashing and being erased. Within life, or America stealing has different consequences. If you're a believer or whatever, stealing gets you sent straight to hell. In America, stealing isn't allowed and you get sent to Jail. In Dragonrealms, stealing is allowed but the person is allowed to take vengeance upon you. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
<<So you really think its even going to exist anymore? Oh, get real. The instant a grave robber grabs it, its gone.>>
Sounds like the problem is more that you're no good at hunting people down. If a person is making throwaways to nab crap, that's wrong because there's no thrill of the chase. There's no risk there whatsoever. This is exactly why this sort of behavior IS NOT condoned by policy. Like I said, I've had my character for years, don't start tossing "throwaway characters" out there like that's what's on the table.
<<How? The character no longer exists after they grabbed the stuff. Or after 3 hours, or whatever. The item is gone. Easiest and most 'fun' is to graverob stuff, put it in the backpack of a throwaway and have the throwaway die with it in a hidden spot. That way the janitor will get it. Isn't that fun? Bah.>>
Do you understand how hard it is to escape someone for three hours? I don't think I've graverobbed a target yet (minus the empath) who hasn't been able to kill me in a cast or two, or a shot or two. All the big profile targets with stuff worth taking are going to utterly destroy me. If I'm GRing 5th circle people, where is the fun in that? That's not being chased and having to run for your life, there's no danger, that's just not fun. What's this janitor business? I'm taking it you've read the news posted about GRed articles not being gotten by the janitor for an extended duration of time before you posted this. Please tell me you did.
<<You sound like you really believe some of this crud that graverobbers do it for the fun of everyone involved ... which is total nonsense. The point of graverobbing is to harass and irritate players. I have yet to see, ever, any graverobber without a novice title or even anything on them other than maybe a backpack and their starting gear. That's not a played character, that's a throwaway expressly rolled up to harass people.>>
Of course I don't do it for the fun of everyone involved. I do it for the fun of ME. Why would I do it so you have a good time? If I wanted you to have a good time, I'd give you my plats, kiss your feet, and call it a day. I'm not interested in you having a good time. If you happen to have a good time chasing me down, all the better. If not, no skin off my back. Of course, you're lying about the above, or you've never seen a graverob ever go down. Considering mechanics, you CANNOT GR someone if you're a novice. First circlers can't do it, "the lingering stench of death" message gets you. So I'm just going to assume your stories and babagem and move on.
<<GR, as it stands, is inherently OOC. Its a way for players to harass and irritate other players without risking anything. It has nothing to do with role playing or character interaction because there is none. Chara 'a' grabs stuff out of grave. Run chara 'a' up and down the NTR at random for 3 hours on a script. Ta-da. Even if chara gets caught, no big loss. Roll up chara 'b' and try again.>>
No, it's completely IC. Rolling up new characters is OOC. Graverobbing is IC. Draw the line. If I roll up a new character to slap you in the face repeatedly, that is OOC. Rolling up characters is OOC. Graverobbing is NOT OOC. Slapping you in the face repeatedly would NOT be OOC. The running a script thing, while for face value is a good idea, is actually a bad one. Victim just makes a script where whenever the person enters the room, you shoot them, cast, whatever. Not to mention how inherently boring that would be. You keep referring to this as an OOC type ordeal, where players are trying to hurt other players. That arguement has bogus written all over it in this discussion. Rolling up throwaways is completely OOC and AGAINST POLICY, as it should be. I completely am against that, that's not RP at all, that's being an ass. Graverobbing is an inherent part of the game. A threat that should always remain, if not becoming a more likely threat if you ask me.
That problem is throwaway characters. In fact, it's not even really a problem. I've seen people at 7th circle forced to give items back by the GMs because they were too young. Quit stating it like it's a current threat or issue at all.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
Have you been reading any of these posts? Do you know how to define harassment? It's a one time thing. If I walked around slapping you, stalking you, waiting for you to die, taunting you, and then repeatedly stealing your things. THAT is harassment. Where do you people get all these babagem about rerolling and throwaway characters? For one thing, my secondary, a necromancer to be sometime, can't even Graverob for the simple reason of being circle 1 or below, you can't reach into graves. Another thing being as soon as I'm thumped by anyone, I drop to my knees and whatever I'm holding drops as well, if I'm below circle 5. My character currently is 22nd circle. I know you all say woohoo, that takes like 2 weeks. I've taken a few years getting to this circle. First because he wasn't my main before, but mainly because I never train. Training isn't fun for me at all. Roleplaying, being hunted, is for certain. I enjoy the fact that I can't move through Crossing without being hidden and peering into most of the big rooms. You're even missing the point of the "thrill of the chase." If I wasn't risking something, where would be my reward? If I didn't care about it, I wouldn't enjoy running away so much and hiding and acting like a thief SHOULD act. There is no "payback" for me. I've never once sold anything to people outside of the game for real cash. I think anyone BUYING items in game with RL cash is insane really. It's being done for the thrill of the chase. Where's the thrill if I don't care about my character?
<<Laugh at the poor fool who looses the last momento of his best IG friend who died in real life two years ago or the altered cloak given to her by her IG husband whose player is undergoing open heart surgery in real life. Yeah, that's lots of fun to remind people that its just a game and that the people behind the characters don't matter. That its actually sick to put any value on momentoes because they aren't the person in question.>>
You want a momento? Log your gameplay. Read your logs. Those logs are just as real as the text IG. Are you telling me you're going to keep your DR character till the day you die, just sitting there on your subscription so you can occasionally log on and remember "the good times"? People behind the characters matter. What also matters is that they understand that this IS NOT real life, that this is a game, and they should expect to accept what happens within the game. Graverobbing is part of the death system in DR. It is one of the reasons you try NOT to die. If you love the item so much that you'll cry and lose your soul or whatever if it's gone, VAULT IT. Stick it in your house, whatever. Or even, never leave a safe room! Don't go hunting. Don't overheal people. DO NOT DO ANYTHING IN WHICH IT IS POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DIE. There, now you're having safe fun with your little toy! Of course, this is boring because there's no element of danger associated with it.
<<Definately an attitude that would help someone who's house has burned down or flooded. Yup, good thing there. Remember, if it isn't real, it doesn't mean anything. Pictures, books, videos, eh, they're not real. So what they burned or were distroyed. They're not real people.>>
You know, I'm really not sure where you're trying to go with this, but you aren't getting there fast. What you're really describing DR equivalent wise is a server crashing and being erased. Within life, or America stealing has different consequences. If you're a believer or whatever, stealing gets you sent straight to hell. In America, stealing isn't allowed and you get sent to Jail. In Dragonrealms, stealing is allowed but the person is allowed to take vengeance upon you. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
<<So you really think its even going to exist anymore? Oh, get real. The instant a grave robber grabs it, its gone.>>
Sounds like the problem is more that you're no good at hunting people down. If a person is making throwaways to nab crap, that's wrong because there's no thrill of the chase. There's no risk there whatsoever. This is exactly why this sort of behavior IS NOT condoned by policy. Like I said, I've had my character for years, don't start tossing "throwaway characters" out there like that's what's on the table.
<<How? The character no longer exists after they grabbed the stuff. Or after 3 hours, or whatever. The item is gone. Easiest and most 'fun' is to graverob stuff, put it in the backpack of a throwaway and have the throwaway die with it in a hidden spot. That way the janitor will get it. Isn't that fun? Bah.>>
Do you understand how hard it is to escape someone for three hours? I don't think I've graverobbed a target yet (minus the empath) who hasn't been able to kill me in a cast or two, or a shot or two. All the big profile targets with stuff worth taking are going to utterly destroy me. If I'm GRing 5th circle people, where is the fun in that? That's not being chased and having to run for your life, there's no danger, that's just not fun. What's this janitor business? I'm taking it you've read the news posted about GRed articles not being gotten by the janitor for an extended duration of time before you posted this. Please tell me you did.
<<You sound like you really believe some of this crud that graverobbers do it for the fun of everyone involved ... which is total nonsense. The point of graverobbing is to harass and irritate players. I have yet to see, ever, any graverobber without a novice title or even anything on them other than maybe a backpack and their starting gear. That's not a played character, that's a throwaway expressly rolled up to harass people.>>
Of course I don't do it for the fun of everyone involved. I do it for the fun of ME. Why would I do it so you have a good time? If I wanted you to have a good time, I'd give you my plats, kiss your feet, and call it a day. I'm not interested in you having a good time. If you happen to have a good time chasing me down, all the better. If not, no skin off my back. Of course, you're lying about the above, or you've never seen a graverob ever go down. Considering mechanics, you CANNOT GR someone if you're a novice. First circlers can't do it, "the lingering stench of death" message gets you. So I'm just going to assume your stories and babagem and move on.
<<GR, as it stands, is inherently OOC. Its a way for players to harass and irritate other players without risking anything. It has nothing to do with role playing or character interaction because there is none. Chara 'a' grabs stuff out of grave. Run chara 'a' up and down the NTR at random for 3 hours on a script. Ta-da. Even if chara gets caught, no big loss. Roll up chara 'b' and try again.>>
No, it's completely IC. Rolling up new characters is OOC. Graverobbing is IC. Draw the line. If I roll up a new character to slap you in the face repeatedly, that is OOC. Rolling up characters is OOC. Graverobbing is NOT OOC. Slapping you in the face repeatedly would NOT be OOC. The running a script thing, while for face value is a good idea, is actually a bad one. Victim just makes a script where whenever the person enters the room, you shoot them, cast, whatever. Not to mention how inherently boring that would be. You keep referring to this as an OOC type ordeal, where players are trying to hurt other players. That arguement has bogus written all over it in this discussion. Rolling up throwaways is completely OOC and AGAINST POLICY, as it should be. I completely am against that, that's not RP at all, that's being an ass. Graverobbing is an inherent part of the game. A threat that should always remain, if not becoming a more likely threat if you ask me.
That problem is throwaway characters. In fact, it's not even really a problem. I've seen people at 7th circle forced to give items back by the GMs because they were too young. Quit stating it like it's a current threat or issue at all.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
SAKHARA
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 02:15 PM CDT
>If I walked around slapping you, stalking you, waiting for you to die, taunting you, and then repeatedly stealing your things. THAT is harassment.
Now there's a lot of fun. Yeah. Hope you enjoy that.
>Where do you people get all these babagem about rerolling and throwaway characters?
From seeing them ... duh.
>for the simple reason of being circle 1 or below, you can't reach into graves
Didn't used to be that way. Course, oh, heavens, you might have to put an hour into a chara to run them up to fifth circle. Not like you can't just reroll another one.
>If I wasn't risking something, where would be my reward?
The same reward as every other grave robber, the irritation and frustration of other people.
There are two real reasons players graverob. 1) to sell stuff for RL money. 2) to give other people grief. I flat out call you a liar when you say its for any other reason. I no more believe your protestations of 'fun' and 'the chase' than I believe Nixon's "I'm not a crook."
>Where's the thrill if I don't care about my character?
Watching someone loose something of value to them that you consider worthless. Cruelty and sadism. That is the point of the second kind of graverobber. <shrug>
>and they should expect to accept what happens within the game.
Yeah, just like people should expect to occasionally loose things to fire and flood and theft in real life. That's what insurance is for. But, most people don't like it and try to prevent it, too.
>In Dragonrealms, stealing is allowed but the person is allowed to take vengeance upon you.
Because graverobbers, in DR, aren't something you can take vengence on. They log, they swap off stuff, they cheat. That's a real graverobber not your imaginary fairy tale one.
>If I'm GRing 5th circle people, where is the fun in that?
Even more fun because they what few things they do have, if they don't have 'big brothers/sisters' is worth so much more to them. Then you can just stand there and laugh at them as they try to do stuff to you and report the instant they get any help. That's reality, not the little delusions you're trying to spin.
>not being gotten by the janitor for an extended duration of time
Hmmm, hold onto item, die in safe room, wait until time's up. Ta-da, all done. There are so many mechanics loopholes its not even funny. That's the real problem with graverobbing. And they're all aimed at real graverobbers who are in it to give other people grief.
>I completely am against that, that's not RP at all, that's being an
That is being a graverobber. That is the point of graverobbing.
>Quit stating it like it's a current threat or issue at all.
All I can talk about is the situations I've seen, which were all with very low circle or novice charas in and around Crossing, particularly during invasions or other chaos. I've never seen one give chase, actually role play, hold onto the item or otherwise do anything but annoy and irritate people.
Now there's a lot of fun. Yeah. Hope you enjoy that.
>Where do you people get all these babagem about rerolling and throwaway characters?
From seeing them ... duh.
>for the simple reason of being circle 1 or below, you can't reach into graves
Didn't used to be that way. Course, oh, heavens, you might have to put an hour into a chara to run them up to fifth circle. Not like you can't just reroll another one.
>If I wasn't risking something, where would be my reward?
The same reward as every other grave robber, the irritation and frustration of other people.
There are two real reasons players graverob. 1) to sell stuff for RL money. 2) to give other people grief. I flat out call you a liar when you say its for any other reason. I no more believe your protestations of 'fun' and 'the chase' than I believe Nixon's "I'm not a crook."
>Where's the thrill if I don't care about my character?
Watching someone loose something of value to them that you consider worthless. Cruelty and sadism. That is the point of the second kind of graverobber. <shrug>
>and they should expect to accept what happens within the game.
Yeah, just like people should expect to occasionally loose things to fire and flood and theft in real life. That's what insurance is for. But, most people don't like it and try to prevent it, too.
>In Dragonrealms, stealing is allowed but the person is allowed to take vengeance upon you.
Because graverobbers, in DR, aren't something you can take vengence on. They log, they swap off stuff, they cheat. That's a real graverobber not your imaginary fairy tale one.
>If I'm GRing 5th circle people, where is the fun in that?
Even more fun because they what few things they do have, if they don't have 'big brothers/sisters' is worth so much more to them. Then you can just stand there and laugh at them as they try to do stuff to you and report the instant they get any help. That's reality, not the little delusions you're trying to spin.
>not being gotten by the janitor for an extended duration of time
Hmmm, hold onto item, die in safe room, wait until time's up. Ta-da, all done. There are so many mechanics loopholes its not even funny. That's the real problem with graverobbing. And they're all aimed at real graverobbers who are in it to give other people grief.
>I completely am against that, that's not RP at all, that's being an
That is being a graverobber. That is the point of graverobbing.
>Quit stating it like it's a current threat or issue at all.
All I can talk about is the situations I've seen, which were all with very low circle or novice charas in and around Crossing, particularly during invasions or other chaos. I've never seen one give chase, actually role play, hold onto the item or otherwise do anything but annoy and irritate people.
MIKEM1
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 02:25 PM CDT
<<And I have read GRA's posts where he/she claims the only reason he/she grave robs is for the thrill of the chase. I am not sure whether GRA really believes it ...
Yet GRA also said that if it were possible he would dispense with that chase by passing the item through the hands of ten of his friends before selling it to some 'sap'. Perspective, I suppose.
Yet GRA also said that if it were possible he would dispense with that chase by passing the item through the hands of ten of his friends before selling it to some 'sap'. Perspective, I suppose.
GONIFTHEEF
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 02:29 PM CDT
i've done a few tests on graverobbing mechanics over in TF <where policy is not really existing, although the mechanics still do> .<nobody else was harmed, i "graverobbed" my other characters>. And theres usually not items people would really graverob over here because most of the stuff is store-bought desposable, because when you combat-script afk you have to be prepared to lose dropped items upon death.
I can say with certainty that you CANNOT pass on a graverobbed item to a below-5th circle character before a certain amount of time goes by. you get messaging to that effect when you try, plus a rt.
However, it is rediculously easy to circle said character to 5th circle - if you don't intend on Keeping that character, the stats you'd get could twink them very easily.
As far as things showing up on DRSales, that is my main objection to graverobbers. because we all know it happens.
Also, people mostly do it to harass other people. Ironic in a game instance that is "player-policed" - TF, we have less graverobbers and etc. than in an instance in which there are plenty of rules/regulations <prime>.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
I can say with certainty that you CANNOT pass on a graverobbed item to a below-5th circle character before a certain amount of time goes by. you get messaging to that effect when you try, plus a rt.
However, it is rediculously easy to circle said character to 5th circle - if you don't intend on Keeping that character, the stats you'd get could twink them very easily.
As far as things showing up on DRSales, that is my main objection to graverobbers. because we all know it happens.
Also, people mostly do it to harass other people. Ironic in a game instance that is "player-policed" - TF, we have less graverobbers and etc. than in an instance in which there are plenty of rules/regulations <prime>.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 03:10 PM CDT
Sakhara you're not describing graverobbing, you're describing mechanics abuse. Please for the love of all that is holy learn to separate the two.
<<Didn't used to be that way. Course, oh, heavens, you might have to put an hour into a chara to run them up to fifth circle. Not like you can't just reroll another one.>>
So why even bring it up really? Does it have any productive impact on the discussion? Not really no. not to mention you're ignoring my post about the 7th circler I know being called up by the GMs for being too young and having it taken back.
<<There are two real reasons players graverob. 1) to sell stuff for RL money. 2) to give other people grief. I flat out call you a liar when you say its for any other reason. I no more believe your protestations of 'fun' and 'the chase' than I believe Nixon's "I'm not a crook.">>
Bringing up more things which are against Policy. Do you really think that my main goal in life is to cause people angst? You're a fool if you say so. If causing other people angst was my only joy in life, doing it through an online game which I have to pay for would NOT be the best medium to do so in. There are plenty of other places which I could make people's lives much more reasonably miserable in RL. Your disbelief in this case really doesn't matter. Your belief has no bearing on truth. If I were to believe you were a gorilla who had learned to use a keyboard, would it make it true? Your 2 "real reasons players" (love those stars by the way, they really emphasize your points) graverob are bogus. I'm severely doubting you're a graverobber, or even a thief IG for that matter, as I'm sure you have about 0 experience with the situation. You've never felt the thrill of the chase, the joy at escaping and nearly being caught, so it's really not within your scope to say why all graverobbers graverob. You call me a liar, I call you ignorant of the true situation. I'm sure neither of us want this to degenerate towards name calling.
<<Watching someone loose something of value to them that you consider worthless. Cruelty and sadism. That is the point of the second kind of graverobber. <shrug>>>
Yep, you've got me pegged. Cruelty and sadism, that's completely me. That's why I've spent the long while I have trying to explain why Graverobbing is a good and necessary part of this game instead of just saying "it's fun because it's a chance to hurt someone's feelings teehee." As I said before, you're being absurd, these ad hominems really don't do anything for your case. You're spending your whole posts babbling about people who are BREAKING POLICY in the first place, while I'm trying to discuss ways within policy currently, and things that could be made better within policy with regards to graverobbing. Whether you like it or not, not everyone who graverobs does it because they like to be cruel and sadistic. If they did, I really don't care, but I do not so it's irrelevent.
<<Yeah, just like people should expect to occasionally loose things to fire and flood and theft in real life. That's what insurance is for. But, most people don't like it and try to prevent it, too.>>
So far you guys have come up with the worst analogies I've ever heard. You don't NEED to expect to lose things to fire and flood, though yes it is good to plan for them. In DR, you don't NEED to expect acts of Gamemasters completely messing you over. You never come in game and have GM Ssra go, "Hey man, don't like your haircut." And then delete your character. That is something completely out of your control, just like fire and flood. Theft is a different story. If you leave your doors unlocked and windows open, expect to be stolen from. Anyone you cry to about someone stealing your car when you left it in the middle of Detroit Michigan would laugh at you. Same goes for departing in DR.
<<Because graverobbers, in DR, aren't something you can take vengence on. They log, they swap off stuff, they cheat. That's a real graverobber not your imaginary fairy tale one.>>
You keep going on about fairy tales and Graverobbers who can't be caught. I've been caught. Killed, had the item taken back away from me. Quit with this garbage about Graverobbers being godlike in their evasion abilities. Logging doesn't work, you can't swap off stuff, and it's near impossible to "cheat" aside from rolling up characters you don't care about. Quit yacking about it if you're not going to know what you're talking about.
<<Even more fun because they what few things they do have, if they don't have 'big brothers/sisters' is worth so much more to them. Then you can just stand there and laugh at them as they try to do stuff to you and report the instant they get any help. That's reality, not the little delusions you're trying to spin.>>
Is it really more fun? Sounds like you need a strong dose of "Graverobbers are not satanic." They're the same as thieves who steal coins, they're just going for bigger game. First being youngins have nothing worth stealin. If an 8th circle guy is carrying a snake charm, I'll be on it like white on rice. Secondly, and I feel I've tried to go over this point again and again with you, I'm not stealing so that other people's gaming experience gets ruined. That's not goal number one here. If that was goal number one, I'd ONLY steal from youngins and make their lives miserable. If I was that kind of person I'd probably spend my time IRL beating up highschool kids or something. Obviously this isn't the case.
<<Hmmm, hold onto item, die in safe room, wait until time's up. Ta-da, all done. There are so many mechanics loopholes its not even funny. That's the real problem with graverobbing. And they're all aimed at real graverobbers who are in it to give other people grief.>>
So you're saying I'm going to go and first, get a bleeder. Then go to a safe room, then die before anyone locates me? And then I'm going to just run somewhere else and let the janitor get the item? What kind of moron would do that? Everyone loses in that case, victim and the thief. Victim gets the ability to kill me for eternity, and I don't even get an item worth some plats for the deal? Why would you even think up a situation so absurd? If you had ticked me off IG, screwed me somehow, I could see it. But if you're a random target, like most of my victims, this would just be silly.
<<That is being a graverobber. That is the point of graverobbing.>>
Please please please, enlighten me more with the information with which I have been withheld from even with all the Graverobbing I've done. It's excellent that you can tell me what I'm thinking when I wasn't even aware of it in the first place. Let me restate. I don't Graverob to scrooge people over, I do it for the thrill of the chase. Same reason I started a thief back so long ago to steal from people, get caught and run away while they try and kill me. Please quit yacking about this and that when you really have no idea aside from your idle speculations.
<<All I can talk about is the situations I've seen, which were all with very low circle or novice charas in and around Crossing, particularly during invasions or other chaos. I've never seen one give chase, actually role play, hold onto the item or otherwise do anything but annoy and irritate people.>>
So you're telling me you've seen someone hand off the item? Then you didn't report and get the item back? Like I've said time and again, it's against policy, it gets you a warning if not LO, and you don't get to keep the item. Again, really not worth it is it?
If it's a very low circle or novice character, report and the GMs will step in. End of story here. As I said before, quit bringing it up like it's a threat of any kind whatsoever. If it happens, it is dealt with swiftly and efficiently. It isn't really even worth talking about anymore. Real graverobbing by actual characters who enjoy the thrill of the chase IS worth talking about.
What you have so far brought to the table Sakhara is ad hominem after ad hominem calling me a liar and calling legitimate graverobbers unexistant. I'm proof that they are existant. If I really didn't care about the subject, I wouldn't be putting so much time into working out better ways of fitting it into Policy. It's been part of the Dragonrealms for quite a while now, it isn't going away any time soon. It is completely accepted under the current policy, all I'm looking for are ways to make it less like the player is just being a yutz and more like an acceptable role to people. Everyone looks for ways to stop Graverobbers when in reality all they need to control are the throwaway characters. I'm looking for ways to make Graverobbing a more prominent threat in Dragonrealms, or at least to defend the existance of the graverobber and why Dragonrealms needs people like us to be fun.
Lets face it, what you're eventually asking for is a land full of teacups and devoid of conflict. There has to be consequences to dying in DR. The threat of being walked isn't really a threat at all. Graverobbing is becoming less of a threat. I want it to be more of a threat, give people a reason NOT to die. Actually throw some more life into the game, more feeling. What's so wrong about that? When you come up with some concrete examples Karhara then by all means please bring them to the table, but so far your absurd speculations and baseless attacks have done nothing but degenerate the conversation.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
<<Didn't used to be that way. Course, oh, heavens, you might have to put an hour into a chara to run them up to fifth circle. Not like you can't just reroll another one.>>
So why even bring it up really? Does it have any productive impact on the discussion? Not really no. not to mention you're ignoring my post about the 7th circler I know being called up by the GMs for being too young and having it taken back.
<<There are two real reasons players graverob. 1) to sell stuff for RL money. 2) to give other people grief. I flat out call you a liar when you say its for any other reason. I no more believe your protestations of 'fun' and 'the chase' than I believe Nixon's "I'm not a crook.">>
Bringing up more things which are against Policy. Do you really think that my main goal in life is to cause people angst? You're a fool if you say so. If causing other people angst was my only joy in life, doing it through an online game which I have to pay for would NOT be the best medium to do so in. There are plenty of other places which I could make people's lives much more reasonably miserable in RL. Your disbelief in this case really doesn't matter. Your belief has no bearing on truth. If I were to believe you were a gorilla who had learned to use a keyboard, would it make it true? Your 2 "real reasons players" (love those stars by the way, they really emphasize your points) graverob are bogus. I'm severely doubting you're a graverobber, or even a thief IG for that matter, as I'm sure you have about 0 experience with the situation. You've never felt the thrill of the chase, the joy at escaping and nearly being caught, so it's really not within your scope to say why all graverobbers graverob. You call me a liar, I call you ignorant of the true situation. I'm sure neither of us want this to degenerate towards name calling.
<<Watching someone loose something of value to them that you consider worthless. Cruelty and sadism. That is the point of the second kind of graverobber. <shrug>>>
Yep, you've got me pegged. Cruelty and sadism, that's completely me. That's why I've spent the long while I have trying to explain why Graverobbing is a good and necessary part of this game instead of just saying "it's fun because it's a chance to hurt someone's feelings teehee." As I said before, you're being absurd, these ad hominems really don't do anything for your case. You're spending your whole posts babbling about people who are BREAKING POLICY in the first place, while I'm trying to discuss ways within policy currently, and things that could be made better within policy with regards to graverobbing. Whether you like it or not, not everyone who graverobs does it because they like to be cruel and sadistic. If they did, I really don't care, but I do not so it's irrelevent.
<<Yeah, just like people should expect to occasionally loose things to fire and flood and theft in real life. That's what insurance is for. But, most people don't like it and try to prevent it, too.>>
So far you guys have come up with the worst analogies I've ever heard. You don't NEED to expect to lose things to fire and flood, though yes it is good to plan for them. In DR, you don't NEED to expect acts of Gamemasters completely messing you over. You never come in game and have GM Ssra go, "Hey man, don't like your haircut." And then delete your character. That is something completely out of your control, just like fire and flood. Theft is a different story. If you leave your doors unlocked and windows open, expect to be stolen from. Anyone you cry to about someone stealing your car when you left it in the middle of Detroit Michigan would laugh at you. Same goes for departing in DR.
<<Because graverobbers, in DR, aren't something you can take vengence on. They log, they swap off stuff, they cheat. That's a real graverobber not your imaginary fairy tale one.>>
You keep going on about fairy tales and Graverobbers who can't be caught. I've been caught. Killed, had the item taken back away from me. Quit with this garbage about Graverobbers being godlike in their evasion abilities. Logging doesn't work, you can't swap off stuff, and it's near impossible to "cheat" aside from rolling up characters you don't care about. Quit yacking about it if you're not going to know what you're talking about.
<<Even more fun because they what few things they do have, if they don't have 'big brothers/sisters' is worth so much more to them. Then you can just stand there and laugh at them as they try to do stuff to you and report the instant they get any help. That's reality, not the little delusions you're trying to spin.>>
Is it really more fun? Sounds like you need a strong dose of "Graverobbers are not satanic." They're the same as thieves who steal coins, they're just going for bigger game. First being youngins have nothing worth stealin. If an 8th circle guy is carrying a snake charm, I'll be on it like white on rice. Secondly, and I feel I've tried to go over this point again and again with you, I'm not stealing so that other people's gaming experience gets ruined. That's not goal number one here. If that was goal number one, I'd ONLY steal from youngins and make their lives miserable. If I was that kind of person I'd probably spend my time IRL beating up highschool kids or something. Obviously this isn't the case.
<<Hmmm, hold onto item, die in safe room, wait until time's up. Ta-da, all done. There are so many mechanics loopholes its not even funny. That's the real problem with graverobbing. And they're all aimed at real graverobbers who are in it to give other people grief.>>
So you're saying I'm going to go and first, get a bleeder. Then go to a safe room, then die before anyone locates me? And then I'm going to just run somewhere else and let the janitor get the item? What kind of moron would do that? Everyone loses in that case, victim and the thief. Victim gets the ability to kill me for eternity, and I don't even get an item worth some plats for the deal? Why would you even think up a situation so absurd? If you had ticked me off IG, screwed me somehow, I could see it. But if you're a random target, like most of my victims, this would just be silly.
<<That is being a graverobber. That is the point of graverobbing.>>
Please please please, enlighten me more with the information with which I have been withheld from even with all the Graverobbing I've done. It's excellent that you can tell me what I'm thinking when I wasn't even aware of it in the first place. Let me restate. I don't Graverob to scrooge people over, I do it for the thrill of the chase. Same reason I started a thief back so long ago to steal from people, get caught and run away while they try and kill me. Please quit yacking about this and that when you really have no idea aside from your idle speculations.
<<All I can talk about is the situations I've seen, which were all with very low circle or novice charas in and around Crossing, particularly during invasions or other chaos. I've never seen one give chase, actually role play, hold onto the item or otherwise do anything but annoy and irritate people.>>
So you're telling me you've seen someone hand off the item? Then you didn't report and get the item back? Like I've said time and again, it's against policy, it gets you a warning if not LO, and you don't get to keep the item. Again, really not worth it is it?
If it's a very low circle or novice character, report and the GMs will step in. End of story here. As I said before, quit bringing it up like it's a threat of any kind whatsoever. If it happens, it is dealt with swiftly and efficiently. It isn't really even worth talking about anymore. Real graverobbing by actual characters who enjoy the thrill of the chase IS worth talking about.
What you have so far brought to the table Sakhara is ad hominem after ad hominem calling me a liar and calling legitimate graverobbers unexistant. I'm proof that they are existant. If I really didn't care about the subject, I wouldn't be putting so much time into working out better ways of fitting it into Policy. It's been part of the Dragonrealms for quite a while now, it isn't going away any time soon. It is completely accepted under the current policy, all I'm looking for are ways to make it less like the player is just being a yutz and more like an acceptable role to people. Everyone looks for ways to stop Graverobbers when in reality all they need to control are the throwaway characters. I'm looking for ways to make Graverobbing a more prominent threat in Dragonrealms, or at least to defend the existance of the graverobber and why Dragonrealms needs people like us to be fun.
Lets face it, what you're eventually asking for is a land full of teacups and devoid of conflict. There has to be consequences to dying in DR. The threat of being walked isn't really a threat at all. Graverobbing is becoming less of a threat. I want it to be more of a threat, give people a reason NOT to die. Actually throw some more life into the game, more feeling. What's so wrong about that? When you come up with some concrete examples Karhara then by all means please bring them to the table, but so far your absurd speculations and baseless attacks have done nothing but degenerate the conversation.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 03:14 PM CDT
<<Yet GRA also said that if it were possible he would dispense with that chase by passing the item through the hands of ten of his friends before selling it to some 'sap'. Perspective, I suppose.>>
Can you please tell me where the thrill of the chase is if I'm not making a getaway with an item of value? Once I've gotten away with that item, done my work to retrieve it, of course I'm going to try and make plats off it. Some people enjoy the work they do, and the money is just a bonus. If you mean that I would swap the item were it allowed by policy, sure, but I'd still be chased till the cows came home and killed repeatedly. I wouldn't be making any of those plats in the end then would I?
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson.
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
Can you please tell me where the thrill of the chase is if I'm not making a getaway with an item of value? Once I've gotten away with that item, done my work to retrieve it, of course I'm going to try and make plats off it. Some people enjoy the work they do, and the money is just a bonus. If you mean that I would swap the item were it allowed by policy, sure, but I'd still be chased till the cows came home and killed repeatedly. I wouldn't be making any of those plats in the end then would I?
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson.
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
VROTSOSJ
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 03:16 PM CDT
Fenildur, you aren't keeping the character and player separate either but overall the graverobbing mechanics are fairly poor and also buggy but that doesn't have anything to do with the policy.
I am --- Navak
I am --- Navak
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 03:19 PM CDT
<<However, it is rediculously easy to circle said character to 5th circle - if you don't intend on Keeping that character, the stats you'd get could twink them very easily.
As far as things showing up on DRSales, that is my main objection to graverobbers. because we all know it happens.>>
Again this is an OOC problem, not an IC one. I would completely approve of GMs having a way to track items being sold on the DRSales network that are GRed. Personally I can't even stand DRSales as it is. Might even be kinda cool for GMs to set up accounts, buy the items, then just take the item back, not give any cash and give it back to the person who lost it. I'll restate for the record, I'm totally against people doing things OOC like this. It's the same reason I don't sign my post, people who bring OOC IC, it's absurd really. Doing something about people rolling up 5th circle or so characters just to graverob is again, OOC completely. What we all should do is figure out a way to stop the people from doing things like this. Acceptable limits, etc. I'm all for that, but just trying to stop Graverobbing removes a completely dynamic and exciting system from DR.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson.
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
As far as things showing up on DRSales, that is my main objection to graverobbers. because we all know it happens.>>
Again this is an OOC problem, not an IC one. I would completely approve of GMs having a way to track items being sold on the DRSales network that are GRed. Personally I can't even stand DRSales as it is. Might even be kinda cool for GMs to set up accounts, buy the items, then just take the item back, not give any cash and give it back to the person who lost it. I'll restate for the record, I'm totally against people doing things OOC like this. It's the same reason I don't sign my post, people who bring OOC IC, it's absurd really. Doing something about people rolling up 5th circle or so characters just to graverob is again, OOC completely. What we all should do is figure out a way to stop the people from doing things like this. Acceptable limits, etc. I'm all for that, but just trying to stop Graverobbing removes a completely dynamic and exciting system from DR.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson.
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
FENILDUR
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 03:22 PM CDT
But it does. What we need to do is make the policy more lax towards actual Graverobbers and more strict about the throwaway characters. An IG system of tracking accounts that make throwaways and then transfer the items to their legitimate characters should have Policy restrictions and consequences. For instance lockout, warnings, return of item, etc.
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
-Previous player of Fenildur Enildurson
Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039
ALDEN
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 04:15 PM CDT
Well for once GRA has half a good suggestion- making it harder to create and use throwaway characters.
I think the current Grave Robbing policy is okay with the exceptions that work the system and hand off to other characters and play consent rules. And certainly GRA's stated goal of enjoying a good chase can be fun.
However, GRA's long, long posts explaining how is he is contributing to the overall environment of DR is just long winded self justification. Lots and lots of wind.
Flavius
I think the current Grave Robbing policy is okay with the exceptions that work the system and hand off to other characters and play consent rules. And certainly GRA's stated goal of enjoying a good chase can be fun.
However, GRA's long, long posts explaining how is he is contributing to the overall environment of DR is just long winded self justification. Lots and lots of wind.
Flavius
SYLER
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 04:26 PM CDT
I fear this thread, which is very important and needs to be continued, is turning conflicting, so let's all try to stop insulting one another's intelligences, and talk about the pro's/con's of Deus Ex Machina intervention against Grave Robbers.
If you want an IC solution to graverobbing, then there should be an IC mechanic to respond agaisnt it. Theft is grand Larceny. You should become a wanted criminal in the entire province you stole in (the flag turned on via Accuse), the player and any citizen of the province (not just player) should be allowed to take action against you. Allied provinces (Zoluren, Therengia) should extradite criminals, items should be returned, and the offender should be fined a multiple of the value of the item. There's an easy IC solution to deal with graverobbing. Of course problems arise for 56 point longbows and items of sentimental value, but you still are a wanted criminal with, essentially, a price on your head (though no one will be rewarded for bringing in a graverobber, except for the graverobbed who gains his/her item back).
Graverobbers are, in Elanthia, on the moral scale, one of the worse possible offenders. They should be treated as such.
If you want an IC solution to graverobbing, then there should be an IC mechanic to respond agaisnt it. Theft is grand Larceny. You should become a wanted criminal in the entire province you stole in (the flag turned on via Accuse), the player and any citizen of the province (not just player) should be allowed to take action against you. Allied provinces (Zoluren, Therengia) should extradite criminals, items should be returned, and the offender should be fined a multiple of the value of the item. There's an easy IC solution to deal with graverobbing. Of course problems arise for 56 point longbows and items of sentimental value, but you still are a wanted criminal with, essentially, a price on your head (though no one will be rewarded for bringing in a graverobber, except for the graverobbed who gains his/her item back).
Graverobbers are, in Elanthia, on the moral scale, one of the worse possible offenders. They should be treated as such.
ZAIRIUS
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 04:29 PM CDT
If your whole premise that graverobbing is needed to provide risk of death, I think your argument is flawed. Loss of items is a wholly uneven negative depending on what one is wearing. In some cases it may take someone 5 minutes to reequip (if they only use store bought stuff) or never (if they have rare or sentimental items). If your desire is to make death something people want to avoid might I suggest more stringent skill loss or lack of ability to use effective skill until spirit is back to full.
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
'Slimy Yet Satisfying' - Miko Mido
Supreme Bunny Overlord Zairius
GONIFTHEEF
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 05:01 PM CDT
I think that would be a great addition to justice system; since grave-robbery doesn't seem to be going away.
In addition to accusing for stealing, one could accuse <person> GRAVE. Since the system flags an item as graverobbed anyway, there would be no doubt about it; as their names would be right up on the wanted boards. Additonally, there could be constable-type "outposts" in the wilderness SOLELY for the purpose of accusing for graverobbery <not for coin/gem theft>, and those accused there could be added to the boards of the nearest town.
I think that would alleviate many of the pvp policy problems associated with the graverobbing situation, plus it would have the advantage of being an IC solution.
The penalty for graverobbery could be the value of the item stolen.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
In addition to accusing for stealing, one could accuse <person> GRAVE. Since the system flags an item as graverobbed anyway, there would be no doubt about it; as their names would be right up on the wanted boards. Additonally, there could be constable-type "outposts" in the wilderness SOLELY for the purpose of accusing for graverobbery <not for coin/gem theft>, and those accused there could be added to the boards of the nearest town.
I think that would alleviate many of the pvp policy problems associated with the graverobbing situation, plus it would have the advantage of being an IC solution.
The penalty for graverobbery could be the value of the item stolen.
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
JARAAD
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 06:52 PM CDT
>>You stop dying, and I'll stop graverobbing your stuff.
I'm gonna have to abandon this line of debate now, I think. I just couldn't help but see Bart Simpson waving his arms wildly and saying, "I'm just going to walk toward you swinging my arms like this, and if you get hit, it's your fault"; and Lisa Simpson kicking randomly in the air and saying, "Well I'm going to walk toward you kicking like this, and if you get hit it's -your- fault!"
Using something like dying and departing which are both typically out of a particular player's control as implied consent is hilariously juvenile. Thank you again.
I'm gonna have to abandon this line of debate now, I think. I just couldn't help but see Bart Simpson waving his arms wildly and saying, "I'm just going to walk toward you swinging my arms like this, and if you get hit, it's your fault"; and Lisa Simpson kicking randomly in the air and saying, "Well I'm going to walk toward you kicking like this, and if you get hit it's -your- fault!"
Using something like dying and departing which are both typically out of a particular player's control as implied consent is hilariously juvenile. Thank you again.
TZIMMERMAN
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/02/2005 07:28 PM CDT
>>>I'm gonna have to abandon this line of debate now, I think. I just couldn't help but see Bart Simpson waving his arms wildly and saying, "I'm just going to walk toward you swinging my arms like this, and if you get hit, it's your fault"; and Lisa Simpson kicking randomly in the air and saying, "Well I'm going to walk toward you kicking like this, and if you get hit it's -your- fault!"
Using something like dying and departing which are both typically out of a particular player's control as implied consent is hilariously juvenile. Thank you again.<<<
Dying and departing are hardly EVER "out of a particular player's control." I've NEVER died without getting a glyph. You don't have to either.
Using something like dying and departing which are both typically out of a particular player's control as implied consent is hilariously juvenile. Thank you again.<<<
Dying and departing are hardly EVER "out of a particular player's control." I've NEVER died without getting a glyph. You don't have to either.
MORS-INCARNATUS
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/09/2005 02:56 PM CDT
<<Ironic in a game instance that is "player-policed" - TF, we have less graverobbers and etc. than in an instance in which there are plenty of rules/regulations <prime>.>>
Not really ironic at all, when you think about TF as a whole, as opposed to simply the lack of regulations.
There are some very specific reasons why there is so little graverobbing in TF, and it makes a lot of sense.
Not really ironic at all, when you think about TF as a whole, as opposed to simply the lack of regulations.
There are some very specific reasons why there is so little graverobbing in TF, and it makes a lot of sense.
MORS-INCARNATUS
Re: One more time, why my love of Graverobbing keeps me in DR.
05/09/2005 03:09 PM CDT
<<Were two people playing chess in a park, and I stepped up to them, and then overturned their chess board, 'it's just a game,' would probably not matter to the players in question. It is indeed just a game, but it was something they were involved in that the person in question purposefully and knowfully disrupted, entirely for the reaction they recieved; someone else's distress.>>
Deeply flawed comparison, as having the board overturned by a random stranger isn't a part of the game of chess.
The potential of being graverobbed IS a part of Dragonrealms. There are mechanics and rules that govern it. Overturning a chess board would be roughly analogous to taking a sledge hammer to the DR server - it's not at all a comparison to graverobbing.
Deeply flawed comparison, as having the board overturned by a random stranger isn't a part of the game of chess.
The potential of being graverobbed IS a part of Dragonrealms. There are mechanics and rules that govern it. Overturning a chess board would be roughly analogous to taking a sledge hammer to the DR server - it's not at all a comparison to graverobbing.
