>Only if that graverobbing is part of a roleplaying experience. Most graverobbing is not of that nature.

False. Someone just stole an item from your grave. How your character responds to that, and how the thief responds to your actions, is the roleplaying experience.

>Short-sighted mechanics and uneffective rules, that I believe require revision and reconsideration...

In your opinion. The rules are much stricter in favor of the victim now than they ever were in the past.

>I know the OOC mechanics that currently exist, and they don't need to be restated.

Other than policy, what OOC mechanics are you talking about? The only OOC mechanics I know of is that the item returns to the gravesite if the GRer logs out.

>The problem is that while the cities will put someone away for stealing a copper, they won't put someone away for stealing, say, a shimmer cloak...

How is the system supposed to know you are carrying that mistwood longbow to help the deader or plan on stealing it? Plus, most graverobbing occurs outside of the towns' jurisdiction.

>if it was truly a safe and unabused roleplaying experience, the policy wouldn't exist in the first place, nor under its current contention...

Not so. There is policy for PvP, there is policy for coin/gem theft, there is policy for scamming, just as there is policy for item theft. The policy exists to protect against abuse of a system, not because mechanics don't support it.

~Heroiklim

Can you look out the window, without your shadow getting in the way?

<<Someone just stole an item from your grave. How your character responds to that, and how the thief responds to your actions, is the roleplaying experience.>>

And if this character happens to have access to an invisibility spell, 500+ hiding, or walks up and down the NTR on a script while being totally unresponsive to you... -How- are you supposed to respond?

PvP has rules stating that Joe must give Jill consent before Jill can attack Joe. This is to prevent an 80th circle barb from massacreing a 10th trader just for the fun of it. Graverobbing has the same potential to be abused (A high circle character preying on a low circle character who has no way of responding), but there is not a similar consent policy for this system.

<<In your opinion. The rules are much stricter in favor of the victim now than they ever were in the past.>>

The rules really haven't changed at all--the rules, in fact, just say that "people don't like graverobbing but we're keeping it." It is the mechanics that have changed.

<<Other than policy, what OOC mechanics are you talking about? The only OOC mechanics I know of is that the item returns to the gravesite if the GRer logs out.>>

You also lose spirit health if you go too far away from the person (or grave, I'm not sure which) that you stole from, and if you go into areas that are no-locate, and some other such things. These are mechanics that are meant to keep a grave robber "on the run," and they're a good idea, if a bit of a contrivance.

Problem is, that is assuming the graverobber is easy prey for the graverobbed. If I went out and bought a hugely expensive glaes scimitar and Zblizz GRed it from me, he wouldn't -have- to run or hide. He could just stand there, put the game in rest mode, and go get a sandwich. (This is not to say anything against Zblizz or to accuse him of graverobbery, just using his name recognition as an ungodly powerful fighter)

<<How is the system supposed to know you are carrying that mistwood longbow to help the deader or plan on stealing it?>>

Consent verb, combined with how long you've held onto it after the person's grave has been dug or glyph touched.

<<Plus, most graverobbing occurs outside of the towns' jurisdiction.>>

This is true. That is not to say, however, that the guildmasters can't rein in the actions of their own. Did you know Kalag has warned the upstanding citizens under his charge not to steal from the fallen? And, obviously, the -rest- of the guilds wouldn't stand for graverobbers in their midst either.

If word got back to guildmasters that one of their pupils had been graverobbing, the guildmaster might decide to take disciplinary measures independent of the jurisdiction of the cities.

<<Not so. There is policy for PvP, there is policy for coin/gem theft, there is policy for scamming, just as there is policy for item theft. The policy exists to protect against abuse of a system, not because mechanics don't support it.>>

Policy and tightened mechanics exist for these systems because they have in the past been abused (see the thread about the barbarian guild being made no-steal). Policy and tightened mechanics exist for graverobbing because -it- has in the past been abused. However, the policy for PvP, coin theft, item theft, scamming, etc., is a lot more restrictive than the policy for graverobbing, even though graverobbing could have much more serious consequences for the victim.

Ahmir

>[ARCELEBOR] Not when the other player uses superior knowledge of policy, mechanics abuse, and loopholes to get away with it.

Arcelebor, I usually respect your opinions, but this is bordering on Shakahn semantics. You aren't arguing against graverobbing here, you are arguing against policy/mech abuse, and that is a reportable offense.

>[Ahmir] And if this character happens to have access to an invisibility spell, 500+ hiding, or walks up and down the NTR on a script while being totally unresponsive to you... -How- are you supposed to respond?

Invisibility can be countered without skillchecks. Hiding can be countered in numerous ways, with or without skillchecks, and the thief will be dead within 20 minutes if he stays in hiding. Walking up and down the NTR on a script would be the most idiotic thing the thief could do, and easily countered.

>[Ahmir] PvP has rules stating that Joe must give Jill consent before Jill can attack Joe. This is to prevent an 80th circle barb from massacreing a 10th trader just for the fun of it. Graverobbing has the same potential to be abused (A high circle character preying on a low circle character who has no way of responding), but there is not a similar consent policy for this system.

Two completely different circumstances. Graverobbing is akin to coin theft, and the same consent policies apply, as well as stricter mechanics favoring the victim.

>[Ahmir] The rules really haven't changed at all--the rules, in fact, just say that "people don't like graverobbing but we're keeping it." It is the mechanics that have changed.

You are arguing semantics, and I won't be pulled into that particular debate. Currently the rules (including policy and mechanics) is weighted more heavily in favor of the victim. Unless you think the free-for-all item drop without graves favored the victim. Graverobbing has become many times more difficult than it was in the past.

>[Ahmir] You also lose spirit health if you go too far away from the person (or grave, I'm not sure which) that you stole from, and if you go into areas that are no-locate, and some other such things. These are mechanics that are meant to keep a grave robber "on the run," and they're a good idea, if a bit of a contrivance.

The first is untrue: you can run to Muspar'i after stealing an item from someone in Shard and never receive a spirit hit except during the barge ride. Rooms that will trigger the wrath of Damaris are !locate, !fams, !combat, guild only, and Indoors. Hiding and invisible will also trigger it. You typically will get 3 hits before full spirit death, assuming a charisma of at least 15. When testing with 20 charisma I was able to survive 5 hits, which had me almost completely depleted.

>[Ahmir] Problem is, that is assuming the graverobber is easy prey for the graverobbed. If I went out and bought a hugely expensive glaes scimitar and Zblizz GRed it from me, he wouldn't -have- to run or hide. He could just stand there, put the game in rest mode, and go get a sandwich. (This is not to say anything against Zblizz or to accuse him of graverobbery, just using his name recognition as an ungodly powerful fighter)

Knowing that graverobbing is an aspect of death, instead of crying that the leet barb stole your sword, you should instead by blaming yourself for dying or using such an expensive weapon if you can't afford to replace it. By all means, attempt to retrieve it through whatever means available to you, but it was your own actions that put you into that position. The thief isn't completely blameless, but neither are you.

>[Ahmir] Consent verb, combined with how long you've held onto it after the person's grave has been dug or glyph touched.

That would be the end of folks holding onto weapons and shields after invasions to return to folks who lost them, as well as returning said items to folks who lost their connection.

>[Ahmir] Did you know Kalag has warned the upstanding citizens under his charge not to steal from the fallen? And, obviously, the -rest- of the guilds wouldn't stand for graverobbers in their midst either.

As far as Kalag is concerned, yes I'm aware of that. As for 'the -rest- of the guilds' not allowing such actions, it's the players that have made graverobbing taboo, not the in game written law. As the anti-GR faction loves to point out, there is no penalty built into the justice system for graverobbers, including being able to ACCUSE a GRer to the guards. IG it would appear as if robbing a grave is at worst frowned upon, if not given a deaf ear entirely.

>[THEELOS] I dont see why it just cant be coded, that Graves can be Guarded..just like an item you can drop and guard...so while said deader is makin thier way back to thier grave there would be a posibility that a friend or good samaritian could guard it (hence a VS check if someone went to swipe sumpin from the grave...like-wise, said 'previous-deader' could try and guard thier own grave while they dig and extract thier items.... More RP for the 'thrill-seeking grave-robber' and more 'chalenging' while giving a better chance for the person whoes grave it is, so hopefully nothing goes 'missing'.... even from those 'accidental' grave robbings', where someone else in the room is unsheathing thier longsword...yet somehow wind up taking the one from an open grave..... at least most of the times when its a mistake like that you hear "Ooops" and so-an-so gives X Item back with a babble or appology ( I do not see how a person NOT intending on stealing from a grave..should miss thier own backpack or sheath, and wind up reaching all the way down into someone's grave).... There should also be some sort of default...where a person Need to Type Get X from Grave....not simply 'get X'..... eh, my several kronars worth ;)

Those are all excellent ideas THEELOS, and much more productive than the 'Graverobbing is cheap, remove it' arguments so far permeating the thread.




~Heroiklim

Can you look out the window, without your shadow getting in the way?

<< You aren't arguing against graverobbing here, you are arguing against policy/mech abuse, and that is a reportable offense.

When every incident of grave-robbing that I've ever experienced or heard of has been an exercise in policy-dancing and mech abuse, it seems clear to me that application and enforcement of graverobbing policy is ineffective. To me, that necessitates the removal of the ability until such time as it can be rewritten to be properly used.

Arcelebor

---

"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

>[Heroiklim] you should instead by blaming yourself for dying

>[Fenildur] completely simple ... to prevent being Graverobbed. Get raised, get a glyph, don't depart.

You know, I'm not sure about everyone else, but the last few times I died, it was unintentional and unexpected. And the last few times I departed without a glyph or a rezz, I did so because I couldn't get a glyph or a rezz. I don't have any on-call clerics or paladins.

>[Fenildur] Don't park a Ferrari in Detroit with the keys in the ignition. Simple things.

Graverobbing is not akin to leaving a Ferrari in Detroit with the keys in the ignition--it's akin to leaving a Ferrari in Detroit, having a thief shatter the window and hotwire the car, then say, "It's not my fault you don't have lucite windows. You shouldn't have left your car."

>[Heroiklim] Graverobbing is akin to coin theft, and the same consent policies apply,

There's a big difference between graverobbing and coin theft. And that is, if you get some coins stolen from you, you can shrug it off and say "oh well." Money is fleeting, and easily recovered. Items frequently are not, especially those that are altered or invested with any sentimental value.

>it's the players that have made graverobbing taboo, not the in game written law

I believe Kalag's notice in question says "The guild doesn't need this kind of heat." Heat, in the colloquial--pressure from law enforcement agencies. Considering some of the other activities his pupils get up to, which he doesn't complain about, that seems to suggest the province looks down quite strongly on the practice.

Suggesting that there's no penalty written into the justice system is counterintuitive, as the justice system has quite a few holes. If someone murders me in cold blood twenty yards away from the Crossing gate on the NTR with fifteen witnesses to corroborate the story, I can't accuse him of murder, either. That doesn't mean the province is okay with murder--it just means the mechanics aren't there.

-

I want to restate that I don't think graverobbing must be eliminated, but rather that the system needs to be changed and fixed. I like a lot of the suggestions by Sakhara and Theelos. But I think the most important points are:

1) You need to be able to decipher who GRed you from your grave. You, your grave, and the items from your grave seem to have a spiritual link, so this would not be outside the realm of reasonability.

2) You should only be able to graverob from someone basically within your range--five circles below you and higher, maybe; OR, roleplaying and IC consequences should be mandatory as part of the "cost" of participating in the graverobbing mechanics. This would ensure that the graverobbing victim has either an OOC or an IC fighting chance to recover a stolen item.

I think those who graverob for the "thrill of the chase" rather than for a quick item grab could support both these modifications. For those who graverob just for a quick item grab... Well, sorry. There's always TF.

<<I want to restate that I don't think graverobbing must be eliminated, but rather that the system needs to be changed and fixed. I like a lot of the suggestions by Sakhara and Theelos. But I think the most important points are:

1) You need to be able to decipher who GRed you from your grave. You, your grave, and the items from your grave seem to have a spiritual link, so this would not be outside the realm of reasonability.>>

Or you could just not leave your grave unattended.

<<2) You should only be able to graverob from someone basically within your range--five circles below you and higher, maybe; OR, roleplaying and IC consequences should be mandatory as part of the "cost" of participating in the graverobbing mechanics. This would ensure that the graverobbing victim has either an OOC or an IC fighting chance to recover a stolen item.>>

Just what the game needs! More contrived mechanics!

<<I think those who graverob for the "thrill of the chase" rather than for a quick item grab could support both these modifications. For those who graverob just for a quick item grab... Well, sorry. There's always TF. >>

Alternatively, for those who aren't fine with someone graverobbing them for a "quick item grab", there is always Plat.

"..... I did so because I couldn't get a glyph or a rezz. I don't have any on-call clerics or paladins.>>

And you couldn't wait for one because...?

Oh, wait...you could have. The convenience of getting back on your feet immediately was apparently worth the added risk to your material possessions, however, so you chose not to wait."

Well as long as you are willing to rely on chance or completely OOC means you can choose to 'wait'. Now I will admit- I have been known to send an IM to a fellow cleric asking for help dieing in a particularly nasty area. However, I have also chosen to sit and wait for someone to walk by before.....and that gets very chancy. Maybe most folks hunt in places where folks walk by, or maybe most of the folks making the comments here can call in their second or third characters to guard their graves. But as a cleric who often hunts places where its unlikely there is a single other character I usually either depart as soon as I hit the ground, or sometimes I wait a couple of minutes to see if my friends will bother to check on my corpse. But I don't take it for granted that I will get a glyph, a rejuvenation or a resurrection. I prefer to have my character responsible for my character.

Of course my arguement is that everyone should be a cleric and shouldnt die until they have MF.

Flavius

<<If you had left the saber in your vault, he couldn't have taken it. By using it in combat, you decided - consciously or otherwise - that using the item is worth the risk of losing the item.>>

The REASON I would get this item is to use it. I'm not going to just leave it in my vault collecting dust because I'm afraid of losing it--but nor am I going to just shrug it off if it gets stolen. You cannot blame a victim for being victimized, or use "implied consent" as an excuse. My wielding a scimitar is not implied consent for it to be stolen, and my departing without a glyph is not implied consent for my grave to be robbed, because dying, and departing without a glyph, are very often not within the player's control.

<<Or you could just not leave your grave unattended.>>

It's very improbable that you're going to have someone you trust to watch over your grave unless you utilize some sort of OOC intervention (specifically, AIM).

<<Just what the game needs! More contrived mechanics!>>

Okay. Let's get rid of all the mechanical contrivances. You will now require a shovel to dig up graves, and the dig verb will give you a roundtime of 15-30 minutes, strength dependent. While we're at it, let's eliminate policy contrivances too: if you are discovered graverobbing, the victim will be allowed to gather a posse of fifty friends and _walk you_ without penalty. If the victim instead chooses to contact the authorities, you will be captured by the guards and executed.

Let's extend it even further. Pirates will now be able to sink ships going between the islands, killing everyone onboard. Even if you are within range of a city so you're able to depart, your items will stay behind and sink to the bottom of the ocean. The fact that the pirates can't do anything except slow down the ships going to the islands is, after all, just a contrivance.

All of the above would be really bad ideas. Why? Because they're unfair. The game needs some level of contrivance or it becomes nothing but frustration for everyone involved. Contrivance exists to bring balance and enjoyment to something that would otherwise be aggravating.

<<Alternatively, for those who aren't fine with someone graverobbing them for a "quick item grab", there is always Plat.>>

Trust me, I'd be in Plat if I could afford it, but I can't. I'd be Premium if I could afford it, but I can't. We shouldn't need to pay an extra $25 a month just to avoid being graverobbed with absolutely no way of finding out who the culprit is until we see our item on an auction list, or to avoid being graverobbed by someone fifty circles above us who doesn't need what they're stealing but only does it because it's fun to aggravate people who can't fight back.

One argument realy does not make much sense to me at all.... a person saves up or what-not (is gifted even) a superior weapon (forged or otherwise.) And as I seem to understand what some are saying is that said person should use a lesser(store bought or otherwise) weapon instead of the weapon that will actually give them the 'edge' they wish(have paid for)to have while hunting or especially in Invasion situations... I mean Invasions as I understand are tuff for most..and any 'edge' a person can get in those situations can Only help.... Like Joe-da-barb says to himself:
"Wowie theres some nasty beasties invading...not sure I can do much,,, but dang I am gonna take as many of em out as I can....hrmm What weapon is best for this job at hand..what will give me an 'edge'... I Know one of my more flimsy weaker blades/weapons.... I will just leave my 'Uber-hacker glase'(that I know will give me a better chance of survival in said hunting grounds/Invasion) in my vault and use a hunting sword I got off a dead marauder."
sorry jes makes no sense to me....the argument may have went 'Just dont but any forged/good/fancy weapons... cause you'll lose em'.... again that makes no sense of an argument * shrugs *

<<Nonsense. The grave itself was a mechanical contrivance in the first place. We're getting rid of those. Back to everything just falling in the ground. Woowoo!

This is too much of a non argument to respond to with anything more than this.


<<(In response to allowing universal consent + walking) I'm fine with that.

Good.

<<In keeping with the elimination of mechanical contrivances, the guards might find the capturing half of that decidedly more difficult, now.

Not really. In fact, if you keep entirely in character with DR, you could say there are Moon Mages in the Town Guard, and they can just summon you to court at will, for sentencing...

<<Awesome idea. The flexing redsash pirates can kill most anyone anyway, though.


This is too much of a non argument to respond to with anything more than this.

<<If you actually applied your logic (or lack thereof)

Insults aren't necissary, please refrain...

<<Except you DON'T have to pay an extra $25 a month just to avoid being graverobbed.

This is what was suggested... You should respond to that argument, which you apparently think is false.

It is a false argument. However, you do need to pay 5 dollars a month to play in Non-Consequence non deus ex machina DragonRealms. It is The Fallen. I mean, that's the Fallen's tagline. "tired of the GMs?" GMs implies their policy based prevention 'deus ex machina' systems.

<< and caution should be exchanged for a babysitter.

Please don't attack the people whose view points differ from yours. Implied within this statement is that the opposition is a child. We aren't. We just don't believe that graverobbing in its current manifestation is fair.

<< Just as there is an added risk to departing without a glyph,

You are implying that "Rejuv, Glyph/resurrection" is the default "On State" of death. That somehow it is required for that death to now be considered legitimate. I challenge that implication and now formally state it false. If you wish to continue using it, you must prove that it is required. In this proof, and the further discussion derived from it, you'll find that it is a.. contrivance. And ultimately a flimsy premise.


<<there is also an added risk to traipsing around the wilderness all by your lonesome.

Other players are not part of "The Wilderness." Again, a false (implied) premise (That being that being in the wildernes necissarily puts you at risk of harassment/Assault/confrontation with other players).

<<Incidentally, if you're all alone, it's also considerably safer to depart, as there is likely no one around to steal your gear.

Uh. I don't agree with this at all, and find it a non-issue due to its lack of support, and will simply move on.

<<First of all, trying to apply real life morals and principles to a game world such as this is pretty pointless.

... I'm not sure how to approach this, either. It's so out there and ironically approaches my -original- post in the severity of its flaw, that I won't respond with anything more than, please examine my post in regards to antisocial behaviour.

<<The rules of DR state that I can take your gear, provided I don't break a number of other rules in doing it.

Yes. And it is a bad, poorly supported rule. It should be changed. As it happens, rules are not the final word, but he accepted moral conscience of the community are the final word.

<<You wouldn't have the right to pickpocket someone, graverob someone, attack someone, shove someone, thump someone, etc.

People implying that pickpocketing and graverobbing are somehow related have entirely missed the point. This is a semantics based argument, that goes nowhere. Pickpocketing is not graverobbing. My gold does not have sentimental value.

<<If the principle of "your right to swing your fist ends where someone else's nose begins" were actually a part of policy in DR, there would be zero conflict between characters.

You didn't play in the AOL and Beta days, did you?

<<Multiplayer games are not for them, then.

No. The multiplayer game you wish to play (the Fallen) is not for them. That is why they play Prime, because they desire the promise of safety of the items they collect over time. They desire the security of moderators and administrators, and they desire the security of law. If you want Anarchy, again, you really -should- go to The Fallen, since it is the game you speak so highly of...

<<Too bad. See above. If you're not willing to accept the possibility that another player might do something you don't like, go play a single player game.

Again. Multiplayer games are Community based. A democracy. The majority of the community is against Graverobbing. Regretfully, this places Graverobbers in the minority, and the minority must suffer. Thus, no, they merely need to play DR Prime


<<you're going to have to learn to accept the risk that's associated with using it.

Why? To enhance the enjoyment of the few, over the many. It's regretful that your, say, ten, even a healthy twenty percent shouldn't be allowed to get the way they want, but again, that's what The Fallen is for. We as the community, however, say No. We want our precious items to be safe, not from the system, but from other aggressive players who are seeking purely to do us harm, and here's the key line that needs to be quoted if a response is given, without our consent.


<< anyone who uses their best gear in an invasion situation is a moron.

Do not use your best gear in an invasion, period.

That said, don't attack people and call them a moron for disagreeing with you. Period. Question mark. Exclamation point. Tilde.


<<and it won't let you take on creatures beyond your skill level.

Not entirely true. I'd be glad to illustrate some time if you care. You can practice if you attain a Mod impact Katar versus a ironhill Stiletto. Or a Storebought longbow with barbed arrows, versus a 50pt Ebony and Heavy puncture capped Hele arrows... Yes, still is still very important, but items can be the slight modifier that determines whether something is stunned or just recieves a glancing blow; further, it's not just about the pure mechanics. It's about sentimentality. I've had my Longbow for over four years, real life time. It's an old capped ebony, and is altered. If it were lost, well, that would seriously damper my gaming experience. The graverobber -not- stealing the longbow does -not- damper his gaming experience. Scenario 1, I suffer, graverobber profits. Scenario 2, no one is hurt. ::shrug::


Enjoy,
Mrrar

Favors: 11 Deaths: 47

"""<<We shouldn't need to pay an extra $25 a month just to avoid being graverobbed with absolutely no way of finding out who the culprit is until we see our item on an auction list, or to avoid being graverobbed by someone fifty circles above us who doesn't need what they're stealing but only does it because it's fun to aggravate people who can't fight back. >>""" this quote was in direct answer to someone who told us that if we did not want to be bothered with GRing we shoul all go to plat.......... so

""""Except you DON'T have to pay an extra $25 a month just to avoid being graverobbed. It already CAN be avoided - it just requires a little caution. Apparently that's too much to ask for, though, and caution should be exchanged for a babysitter."" dont realy address why that was said ;)
>>>>>>ANd further more your statement of """"Sorry, but anyone who uses their best gear in an invasion situation is a moron( moron aint that sorta flaming and insulting, as opposed to discussing a matter ?). Regular day to day hunting where you CAN, in fact, control a lot of the potential risk to yourself and your item is one thing. Invasions, however - it could be rock trolls one minute and elpazi the next. You're probably going to die, and your gear is NOT going to substantially contribute to your survival.""
makes no sense to the argument....as it was directed Not Only at invasion circumstances .....and even if it were..... would not joe the barb like to say in the wake after an invasion "Glad I had 'Old Betsy' here *patting his prized one-day/hopefully to be an Epic weapon carried by an Epic hero..who slayed the so-an-sos.. sending them back into the abyss from whence they came.... >>>> Thats RP.... now if you are saying there is no reason to try for and consitancy in a person's RP due to the fact that we have 'thrill-seekers' graverobbing people....again see My previous post.....its just silly to buy a weapon you will not be using... and the argument dont realy float..

if thats is the case however where people think good/special weapons should not be used then no one should be making forged weapons(please please note the sarcasm ;)

a simple mech would help..one that I have offered as an idea many times...ya know how you can guard an object on the ground or a companion in combat..... let us be allowed to guard graves in the same manner.... And please add that we have to type the whole phrase "Get X from Grave" instead of just "get X" it would kleer up alot of GR-unintended-boo-boos ;)

>>>Incidentally, if you're all alone, it's also considerably safer to depart, as there is likely no one around to steal your gear.

Which doesn't prevent someone from walking by mere moments after you depart, thereby giving them access to your gear.

>>>First of all, trying to apply real life morals and principles to a game world such as this is pretty pointless.

See, that's the thing... There are people on the other end of the equation, and those people actually are in the real world. And those people can have their real-world enjoyment of the game spoiled due to your real-world enjoyment of the game. See? Real life morals have a place in the discussion, because the moral decisions involved are made by people in the real world. If this was strictly our characters getting up and doing things without our conscious knowledge, then it would be a strictly in-game moral choice.

So unless you've figured out how to write an interactive roleplaying script that is capable of Turing-level decision-making, then it's still you, as the player, that is making these decisions. If you have written one of these, I respectfully advise you to drop what you're doing and apply for a position at an advanced cybernetics lab. With that in your tool-kit, you won't have to worry about a resume. Or even a high school diploma, for that matter.

>>>Multiplayer games are not for them, then.

You can compete against a system without competing against people, even in a multi-player game. However, you can't compete against people without first competing against the system. Maybe skill-and-stat-based games like DR aren't for those that just wish to compete against other people.

>>>If you're not willing to accept the possibility that another player might do something you don't like, go play a single player game.

And if all you want to do is compete against other people, then maybe you should go play a game that is only that. And I hear people can actually get corporate sponsorship to do so...

Amagaim; the player of,

---

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.

<<You're missing my point. I am not arguing against mechanical contrivances. I am suggesting that some level of mechanical contrivance is a necessary part of the game, I was merely using counterexamples and healthy hyperbole to illustrate my point.>>

And in arguing for mechanical contrivance, you're citing systems that AREN'T mechanical contrivances, and naming them as such. Way to not make a point.

<<Which doesn't prevent someone from walking by mere moments after you depart, thereby giving them access to your gear.>>

But it somehow precludes the possibility of someone walking by BEFORE you depart and getting you some help?

Be consistent.


<<Not really. In fact, if you keep entirely in character with DR, you could say there are Moon Mages in the Town Guard, and they can just summon you to court at will, for sentencing...>>

Actually, that's NOT something moonmages can do. The ability you speak of is called Riftal Summons.

It requires a seers sense to first be cast on the target. It also sends the target BACK to their original location after a few minutes.

So, once again, for the system you describe to be possible, it would require a number of additional contrivances/deus ex machina.

>>>But it somehow precludes the possibility of someone walking by BEFORE you depart and getting you some help?

And if you have no idea that someone was going to be walking in at all?

Hence the consistency.

Amagaim; the player of,

---

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.

""""Theelos: I left my secret decoder ring at home today, but from what I've been able to decipher, you just don't seemt to think that there should be any risk in using an item of value. At no point did I say you shouldn't use anything. What I said was, be prepared to lose whatever you DO use. Makes a lot more sense than, "I should be able to use whatever I want with no risk of losing it what-so-ever," I think. """"
Again not reading the post in context with the ones previous to it...I personally only had/used a forged weapon once in my life... since it was a sabre though and 'attack' X 3 includes lunge which is a horrid manovure I dont use it no more... but that has nothing to do wit dis ;)
whether it was you or another whom stated 'Only morons use thier weapons in invasions or if they are gonna get grave-robbed'(so ok not an exact quote but..) Is why I posted what I did ... and IF you read the posts here, you'd have picked up the use of sarcasm and also noticed othert ideas to alieviate both sides of the fence with a 'guard' mech on graves and/or Having to type the Full "Get X from Grave" as then there would be no mistake...if it was done by 'accident' or not...I am not saying stop...(although I personally see no true benifits to the game because of it) I am saying make it reasonable....
lets say : I go into central park and open my lunchbox and some shmo comes and is able to reach by me and eat my lunch...ermmmm By mistake.... cause he forgot he did not open his own lunch-box ?.... am I sure at that moment he/she just did not realize they were reaching Into My lunch-pail ? LoL

---

all just thoughts ... please feel free to scatter them into the wind ;)

<<And if you have no idea that someone was going to be walking in at all?

Hence the consistency.>>

No, that's not consistency. You're completely ignoring probability.

If the area tends to be devoid of other players, it's STATISTICALLY MORE LIKELY that no one will be there to graverob you. It's also STATISTICALLY MORE LIKELY that no one will be around to help you, as well.

You can't have one without the other, though for some reason, you and others want to ignore that. If there are less people, there are less people.

If you venture into these areas, you are ACCEPTING the risk that no one will be around to help you.

I've also never found a real, genuine reason for going to most of the abandoned hunting grounds in the game. Most, not all. They're usually abandoned for a reason. Almost every skill range has a highly populated hunting ground - which is highly populated for a reason.

Jeez, I leave for two days and have 30 posts to catch up on. I'm not going to bother quoting each post here but I will instead address several points.

First to Amagaim. Hunting in DR carries the risk of death at all times. It is again risk vs. reward. Hunting in areas which are near abandoned carry a more severe risk for the reward you're seeking IE. Filling a roleplaying quirk of a loner, increased gen rates (btw, kinda certain here that the more characters in the area, the higher the gen rate multiplier), or exploring the unknown all qualify as being unique because there IS more risk. Part of this risk is dying alone with no one to help you. As a graverobber, I don't really bother with far out areas anyways because no one really dies out there often. It's just not worth the effort out there. If I did however put forth the effort to follow you to a hunting ground daily, wait for a mistake to be made, for you to die, and then to grab your weapon, I feel I've put in enough darned work to deserve my shot at GRing you and making you chase me till kingdom come. Your ideas that you'll come back and find your grave completely looted are absurdly ill founded. Have you ever dug up a grave before? It usually takes a team of 10 people at least 5 minutes. For one person digging alone using a shovel it'll take 10-20 minutes depending on how long the grave has been there. This is far from you dying coming back and finding everything gone with an IOU in place or something. Most likely you'd enter the room to find me digging and beat the living snot out of me. It isn't really worth the time to dig into graves anyways. It is usually worth the time to hide, wait till the guy comes in and doesn't search, grab an item out and run. If the guy would search and find me waiting, I'd be in MUCH worse shape. Compare me tracking you down without you noticing and waiting till the time you die to go and grab your weapon the same as stalking a mark and making a grab without being seen. It's really the same technique involved except GRing takes MUCH more work to actually pull off.
You seem to feel that you as a person decide which risks you take by hunting. This is false. Every time you leave a sanctified room you are taking the risk that something may invade, shoot you dead, and trample your body. This is part of living in a fantasy world, and it is part of what makes the game exciting. The reason DR has so many more consequences built into death is to make death more of a problem to deal with. I know in other games death is nearly inconsequential, in DR there are severe risks and consequences associated with death. The system just might win example where you're competing against the system is false. The system winning also puts you at risk to those who would rob you when you die. It is part of the integral system of DR, however unlikely. You are not playing a game of "beat the computer monsters" when you sign onto DR. You are playing Dragonrealms, a game in which you can hunt those monsters if you want, or you can become a healer, or a thieving graverobber. All of these are facets of the game. You do not get to choose whether or not the thief steals from you. You do not get to choose that there could be an invasion killing you instantly. If I only wanted to deal with people IG, stealing and all that, I wouldn't be able to say the creatures and invasions shouldn't be allowed to affect my gameplay because that's not what I CHOSE to do this morning. DR is a game with many facets, one of those being the ability to steal from other people.
With raise being released and becomming far more common, I haven't even gotten a mark in the past two weeks. It's harder than you make it out to be to GR a person worth the effort. Back onto my Ferarri example, would you park your hand made automobile in Detroit at all? Not unless you want to be mugged and have your car stolen. Is it wrong for the car thief to beat you up and take your car? Yes. Is it a lot of fun for the thief? Most likely. Is it against the rules of society? Sure is. Do you take the risk that you'll be beaten up and have your car stolen no matter what every time you leave your house? Yep you do, however unlikely it is. In the real world, grand theft auto is reported to police who go after the subject, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO EXACT REVENGE ON YOUR OWN. In DR, you cannot report to the police, but you are ENCOURAGED and given the ADVANTAGE in running a successful counter strike. Have you ever tried to hide from a person in game when you can't hide in rooms? People locate you every few seconds? Send moonbeams into your room and then Gate in? Have companions find you and then track their wolf to get to you? You're making it sound like the Graverobber gets away easily with really no skill or penalty whatsoever and this truely is not the case. I STILL can't show my face in Crossing without some guy tracking my bum down and trying to shoot me in the face when I haven't even SEEN them in weeks or monthes! These accusations of "GRAVEROBBERS ARE ANARCHISTS WHO NEED TO PLAY TF" are beyond absurd. As was said, perhaps go to Plat if you don't like Graverobbing? In fact, go to TF, as Graverobbing is less common there due to the lack of consent policies. If I were in Plat, I would be a graverobber extraordinaire just the same as I am now. Wouldn't change a thing for me, except I'd be losing more money that I really don't want to spend just so you stop feeling like you're constantly under the threat of Graverobbers lurking behind every crevice.

This idea that GRing is different than coin theft is also completely nonsensical. GRing is just the theft of a LARGE AMOUNT of coins. If I steal a shadowsilk, I am effectively stealing 300 plat worth of item. In essence, 300 plat at a time. If I GR a crossing scimitar, I'm only getting a silver or so. The difference is in going after the bigger marks. It is the difference between a person robbing The Louvre and a cutpurse nailing a woman in Brazil. Every item IG has a price, and usually I will offer via gweth the opportunity for the victim to buy back his or her item at a price I set. Usually this is met with "OMG HOW COULD YOU DO THAT YOU'RE DESPICABLE" remarks from the populace instead of "Wow, nice of you not just to sell that off to some other guy and never give the guy a chance to get his item back without killing you." GRing is the same as cointheft, just on a much larger scale with much larger consequences.

The speech about murdering a guy 5 rooms away from the NE gate not being accusable when it is still against the law is incorrect as well. The town guard has no jurisdiction outside of the town walls, therefore laws are impossible to enforce. It is completely IC, not a mechanics problem at all. Detroit police would have a horribly hard time tracking down a murderer who commited his crime in the plains of Montana.

Again and again I must emphasize this, the threat of GRing is an integral part of the risk for death in DR. If there is no risk with regards to hunting, there will be no reward. The more risk, the more reward. Hunting in the middle of nowhere risks not being picked up, but you get to have your alone time. Hunting in very highly trafficked areas means you're more likely to be picked up, but have to deal with buffoons running through your rooms and spiking the gen rates.

JARAAD, I'll address a couple of your points directly even though Mors-Incarnatus addressed them earlier.

<<The REASON I would get this item is to use it. I'm not going to just leave it in my vault collecting dust because I'm afraid of losing it--but nor am I going to just shrug it off if it gets stolen. You cannot blame a victim for being victimized, or use "implied consent" as an excuse. My wielding a scimitar is not implied consent for it to be stolen, and my departing without a glyph is not implied consent for my grave to be robbed, because dying, and departing without a glyph, are very often not within the player's control.>>

No one blames the victim for being victimized, the victim is usually just blamed for having a horrible lacking of common sense. You do not walk into the middle of detroit and voice your opinions on why black people are an inferior race. You do not stand in Tokyo and yack about how you think the Yakuza are pansies. The saying is, "you're asking for it." It goes back to my Detroit Ferrari example. It isn't the victim's fault that his car was jacked, but it still is a STUPID idea to try. By wielding a scimitar, you are implying consent for a person to try and steal that scimitar if you die and giving the implied impression that you really would love to chase him down to get it. As I said, departing without a glyph, having expensive items, not waiting for a rezz; all count as asking to play cat and mouse with me and your items. Don't walk through Harlem with a Rolex unless you plan on dealing with the thugs. Don't go out to hunt with a glaes bastie unless you want to deal with the graverobbers. DR, like the real world is only perfect within its imperfections. One imperfection is that there is a guy out there willing to risk his life to take that nice shiny sword of yours, and doesn't give a darn whether or not you love it like a brother.
In most cases, I am completely in favor of Graverobber hunting parties, with a posse of friends hunting me down. However, if this comes about as legal policy, I'd like to be able to hide, seeing as running willy nilly like a chicken with its head cut off is near impossible against a larger group of people. It doesn't provide a fair chance to the Graverobber. I don't mind not being able to stay in safe rooms or non locate rooms, I understand how that isn't fair, but not being able to hide without soul hits would be too much at that point.

<<Trust me, I'd be in Plat if I could afford it, but I can't. I'd be Premium if I could afford it, but I can't. We shouldn't need to pay an extra $25 a month just to avoid being graverobbed with absolutely no way of finding out who the culprit is until we see our item on an auction list, or to avoid being graverobbed by someone fifty circles above us who doesn't need what they're stealing but only does it because it's fun to aggravate people who can't fight back.>>

Tell the truth, the same circumstance in plat would apply. If I find your weapon before you get back to it, you won't find me in plat either. People at 50th circle or so generally don't GR. In fact, I can't think of one who GRs people often. I can't even think of anyone over 30th who does. If I could afford plat, I would play plat, and I would GR people there too. In fact, it'd almost be nice to be notorious around town and all that. You're raising up problems that really don't exist except in completely extreme circumstances, and it isn't productive to the discussion as people such as myself have to spend the time explaining why your "examples" really are immaterial.

I'm going to take this space to completely ignore the arguement of mechanical contrivances as it really seems to be going nowhere except straight to an abuse of a slippery slope by both sides.

Mrrar:

<<there is also an added risk to traipsing around the wilderness all by your lonesome.

Other players are not part of "The Wilderness." Again, a false (implied) premise (That being that being in the wildernes necissarily puts you at risk of harassment/Assault/confrontation with other players).>>

Yes, other players ARE part of "the wilderness." I do not say, "I want to ride the ferry, so no one has the right to steal my ferry fare and stop me from riding the ferry." Being anywhere IG that is not a sanctified room is taking a risk. Every time you leave those rooms, you take a risk that there will be an invasion and you will die. What you WANT to deal with as far as risks go is completely immaterial in comparison to the ACTUAL risks IG. I don't want to risk dying when I hunt, but it is part of the game. I don't want to risk being GRed when I die, but it is part of the game, it makes it more exciting. If the risk of death isn't there for hunting, hunting worthless. If there is no risk associated with dying, then death really doesn't matter. lets face it, favors are SIMPLE to get. Walking isn't really a threat. At the most you could lose a rank or departing without help, not really much of a penalty to death at all. The risk of being GRed is the MAJOR penalty. This is why glyphs exist and people get raised. They do NOT want their items stolen. Part of hunting is the risk that you won't be found, or that your body will be found by an evil graverobber. You take this risk every time you hunt, whether you like it or not.

<<

Why? To enhance the enjoyment of the few, over the many. It's regretful that your, say, ten, even a healthy twenty percent shouldn't be allowed to get the way they want, but again, that's what The Fallen is for. We as the community, however, say No. We want our precious items to be safe, not from the system, but from other aggressive players who are seeking purely to do us harm, and here's the key line that needs to be quoted if a response is given, without our consent.>>

Please for the love of all that is holy quit saying telling people to quit playing Dragonrealms Prime. If you don't like GRing, an integral part of DR Prime, go to Plat, where GRing is much less frequent an occurance. Heck, you should go to TF actually, GRing is quite rare there, as the other players hunt you down and beat you silly. Your items are just that, items. Allow me to explain to you yet again that theft is an integral part of DR. We have a thieves guild who steal coins. ITEMS are worth a certain amount of coin. When I steal your "precious" items, I am really robbing you of your net balance in coin. Your consent is neither needed nor asked for in transactions of this type. In fact, you've already given it by dying. By leaving a safe room, you have given me consent to steal from you and by me stealing from you, I have given you consent to hunt my squirrely butt down and exact some vengeance from my hide.

Navak: I sincerely feel that we should do more testing on the size of soul hits. If you'd like to do some, seeing as I've done other testing with you a long while back, IM me at Fenildur. I know I've been whacked good by 4 hits or so and knocked dead, but it would be interesting to try some different people with different charismas.

Jaraad:
<Graverobbing stands alone. It has no IC consequences, the robber has few OOC handicaps (if you are not seen taking the item, you are absolutely home free so long as you stick around on the game and in neutral rooms for a certain time period).>

No. No. No. No. No. Graverobbing has TONS of IC consequences. For instance, it's near impossible for me to get healed because I've GRed an empath. I have to ask in whispers so no one yells out, "No one heal soandso he GRed an empath!" I constantly have people out there looking to whoop my behind and take back their item and then some. I have spouses after me whom I don't even know trying to withdraw vengeance for their hubby or wife. How hard is it to find an item and grab it without being seen? VERY. In fact, if you're planning it, near impossible. Someone may happen to run across it by luck, but that isn't what I'm looking at, which is the active hunt of a person to GR. Heck, weapons really aren't usually profitable to steal anyways unless ya get really lucky. Just too much luck is required for your premise here to hold true. OOC handicaps there arequite a few as well. I cannot hide. I cannot go in safe rooms. I cannot ride boats. I cannot go in rooms where I cannot be located. I cannot go into rooms where a familiar or a wolf or a raccoon cannot find me. I cannot go into my own home. I cannot rent an inn room to hideout. Please quit claiming that GRing is an easy thing for any person to do and get away with. It most definitely is not. There are just as many ways to prevent GRing than there are ways to prevent coin theft. Get a glyph, get raised, don't hunt in areas you can die, do not leave sactified rooms, don't carry things worth a Graverobber's effort, etc.

<<Multiplayer games are not for them, then. ... Too bad. See above. If you're not willing to accept the possibility that another player might do something you don't like, go play a single player game.>>

<<You do not dictate what is fun in a multiplayer game, and I'm rather glad for that.>>

And neither do you good Sir. How about this? You would be ruining my fun by not letting me graverob your items and run willy nilly into the night. As he says, this is a multiplayer game with many facets. One of these facets is that characters may robe you, this is part of the world of Elanthia, part of what you pay for every month. Funny isn't it? You directly pay for the opportunity to hunt critters, just as I pay for the opportunity to graverob you. I don't pay for the opportunity to hunt critters and mind my own business, but it is part of the game. You don't pay to be graverobbed, but it is again part of the game. You automatically get one with the other. Heck I don't pay to watch people snuggle each other IG, but I still have to deal with it just as much as you have to deal with being GRed if you don't protect yourself.

Amagaim:

<<If you're not willing to accept the possibility that another player might do something you don't like, go play a single player game.>>

<<And if all you want to do is compete against other people, then maybe you should go play a game that is only that. And I hear people can actually get corporate sponsorship to do so...>>

But I want to do both Amagaim, and so I play DR. You can't claim that your way to play is "the right way" to play DR. DR is a MUD, you have to deal with what other characters do on a daily basis, whether you like it or not in most cases.

WHEW. Mouthful for certain. Think I covered everything though in enough depth, tried not to cover what has already been covered so much.

-Previous Player of Fenildur Enildurson



Tiv says, "She has fallen before. She knows she cannot stand against me in battle."
Tiv rules.
"This is the Moon Mage Guild, not the Pottery Guild"
Ok, Kssarh is cool too.
Am I hot? Some say it is so. http://www.myspace.com/james2039

<<This idea that GRing is different than coin theft is also completely nonsensical. >>

This I have to strongly disagree with.

Coins/gems are always replaceable.

Items - due to the planned obselesense of rare items, are not always replaceable.

Even though they are really "bits and bytes" that are attached to the character - at times the items one possesses are irreplaceable as having certain sentimental value. Festival items, or altered items that one can't get back easily - or weapons/armor that were forged by someone no longer playing the game for example - one cannot just go to the local general store and get back.items that are significant to the character - i.e. a prayer badge, etc - have attachment to that character that have no monetary worth to the graverobber and are only robbed for the "snert" factor... do not translate to coin, and are only taken for the robber to rub it in the face of the victim.

Do not equate thievery and grave-robbers. They are not the same.

Schvartz



---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

>The multiplayer game you wish to play (the Fallen) is not for them.

Not for this sort of player either, because graverobbers in TF get walked, plain and simple. Its no fun there to be a lawbreaker, ultimately, because you will get hunted down and walked, and if you insist on being rude, all of your characters as soon as people figure out the player, will be walked. Gets sorta frustrating to not be able to play at all, which is the fate of people who are stupid enough to challenge the base rules of society over there.

Today, for the most part, TF is far more polite in the long run than Prime. Someone picks on someone else, there's always a bigger defender. Its sorta become the ultimate polite society because of how heavily armed a few folks are.

Although its also no fun for graverobbers there because money and items don't mean anywhere near as much. Look at the recent newbie battle where the winner got a boat. That's not a prize I think anyone but GMs is going to be giving out in Prime, that's for sure. Alterations in TF, eh, go get a scroll and get one. No biggie. They're lots of fun, too. That totally spoils the primary joy of any graverobber, which is to hurt people's feelings and take away things people value. When there really isn't much of value around, there's no great harm in taking stuff so graverobbing isn't 'fun' in the same way.