First off, I want to keep this focused.

What This Is: A frank discussion on the penalties and consequences of script checking. What they are or should be.

There has been a flurry of conversation in discord as we're watching yet another long-time and prominent member sell-off and leave. They were hit with a scripting penalty, and they're now looking at -14,000 TDPs. With that kind of setback, and the feelings that usually accompany a penalty, no one is questioning their decision (pro or against scripting of any kind). They can question the actions that led up to the penalty, but it's kind of expected that they won't stay. That alone is telling, and in a dwindling community with fewer and fewer returnees and true noobs, I think it's time to ask what our goal is and determine if the punishments are meeting that goal.


What This Isn't: Literally anything else.

This isn't about changing the policy around AFK scripting. This isn't about making it an accepted practice or even normalizing AFK scripting in official spaces. This isn't about who is or isn't hit, harassment via reports, player perspectives, personal feelings on AFK'ing, arguing about whether you do or don't AFK, arguing about the fairness of script checks, TDPs, FTPs, systems some players run to make them "immune" to script checks, GMs who are/aren't interested in player opinions, old GM statements on script checks, MTX, problem players, or well... any of the other squares on DR drama bingo. This is just the one square. Punishment for AFK scripting. All the other dead horses which should stay dead. Please don't use it to troll or derail an otherwise potentially useful conversation.

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TL;DR: Your most dedicated players are the ones punished the hardest. A "10% rank penalty" isn't really a "10% penalty" and it scales disproportionately to the players who have more ranks (ranging between 9%-70% loss). This is due to ranks not being gained linearly, including penalties and bonuses from mentals/skillset placement. The more dedicated and invested the player, the more they are penalized. Many (most?) of these players are driven away, which leaves holes in the community and further reduces the opportunity for non-scripting interaction. It's a self-feeding cycle, and the punishments only encourage more of the thing they're trying to curtail.

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Okay, digging into the data. Let's start with the groundwork.


How Experience Works: Adding these here in case anyone is currently unaware.

- Experience requirements are not linear for either ranks or circles. https://elanthipedia.play.net/Experience

- The amount of bits needed to go from 1500 - 1750 ranks is slightly more than the amount of bits required to go from 1 - 750 ranks.

- Stats matter. At 120 intel/wisdom, you see a 30% gain in xp. 33% with 120 disc as well.

- A secondary skill will convert bits to ranks 20-25% slower than a primary skill.

- A tertiary skill will convert bits to ranks 30-43% slower than a primary skill.

- This does not take into account "dead zones" or inefficient training where you wait on one skill to catch up (ie; shield). It also doesn't take into account uber-optimized scripts where you may hunt in two entirely different hunting areas, or use alts to buff/heal and thus increasing bit gain while your required skills are training inefficiently or requiring additional movement time to keep them moving. It also doesn't take into account skills that are incredibly difficult and time-consuming to lock (crafting) or require secondary and limited resources to do so effectively (lockpicking, empathy).

How Penalties Work:

- A "hit", as used below, is a character associated with your billing info or IP address being picked up for AFK scripting.

- Two hits within 12 months of time results in a 10% loss of raw ranks (ranging from 10-17% of bits).

- Three hits within 12 months of time results in a 25% loss of raw ranks (ranging from 25-40% of bits).

- Four hits within 12 months of time results in a 50% loss of raw ranks (ranging from 50-70% of bits).

- Multiple characters being picked up in the same room at the same time will compound the "hits". Each character counts as a hit for each other character. So three characters, a first time hit for each, would result in a 25% - 40% loss for each character picked up at the same time.

- You lose the TDPs on the ranks that are taken, but you retain the stats helping you recover (estimated to be about 10% faster on the high end relative to the value of the bits lost)

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But what does this actually mean?

For sake of argument, let's assume you can earn 150 bits an hour by constantly moving a primary skill. That's almost a full rank an hour for a level 1, and would give you 1750 ranks in 12,536 hours of constant drain (4179 hours of REXP drain, or just over 2 years of 6/hour day shifts). Outside of REXP, that's 4.28 years of 8 hour days to reach 1750, or 2.86 years of 12 hour drains.

Going with this number, we'll let secondary skills gain 112.5 bits per hour and tertiary skills gaining 85.5 bits an hour. Due to the size of the data, I'm rounding to the nearest hour for readability.

Note the forumala used to calculate the bit loss is as follows:
- r = original rank
- n = new rank post penalty (90%,75%,50% of r based on a 10%,25%, and 50% loss)
- l = lost ranks (r-n)

- Lost bits = [ r * (r+399)/2] - [l * (l+399)/2])
- Actual penalty = total bits for r / lost bits
- Lost hours = actual penalty / {150,112.5,85.5}

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Primary Skills:150 bits/hour

Ranks	Total Bits	Total Hours	10% penalty (ranks)	10% penalty (bits)	% penalty (actual)	10% penalty (hours)	25% penalty (ranks)	25% penalty (bits)	% penalty (actual)	25% penalty (hours)	50% penalty (ranks)	50% penalty (bits)	% penalty (actual)	50% penalty (hours)
1	200	1	0	20	9.98%	0	0	50	24.95%	0	1	100	49.94%	1
25	5300	35	3	558	10.53%	4	6	1384	26.11%	9	13	2728	51.47%	18
50	11225	75	5	1235	11.00%	8	13	3041	27.09%	20	25	5925	52.78%	40
75	18050	120	8	2031	11.25%	14	19	4971	27.54%	33	38	9591	53.13%	64
100	24950	166	10	2945	11.80%	20	25	7175	28.76%	48	50	13725	55.01%	92
150	41175	275	15	5130	12.46%	34	38	12403	30.12%	83	75	23400	56.83%	156
200	59900	399	20	7790	13.01%	52	50	18725	31.26%	125	100	34950	58.35%	233
250	81125	541	25	10925	13.47%	73	63	26141	32.22%	174	125	48375	59.63%	323
300	104850	699	30	14535	13.86%	97	75	34650	33.05%	231	150	63675	60.73%	425
400	159800	1065	40	23180	14.51%	155	100	54950	34.39%	366	200	99900	62.52%	666
500	224750	1498	50	33725	15.01%	225	125	79625	35.43%	531	250	143625	63.90%	958
750	430875	2873	75	68400	15.87%	456	188	160453	37.24%	1070	375	285750	66.32%	1905
1,000	699500	4663	100	114950	16.43%	766	250	268625	38.40%	1791	500	474750	67.87%	3165
1,250	1030625	6871	125	173375	16.82%	1156	313	404141	39.21%	2694	625	710625	68.95%	4738
1,500	1424250	9495	150	243675	17.11%	1625	375	567000	39.81%	3780	750	993375	69.75%	6623
1,750	1880375	12536	175	325850	17.33%	2172	438	757203	40.27%	5048	875	1323000	70.36%	8820

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Secondary Skills: 113 bits / hour

Ranks	Total Bits	Total Hours	10% penalty (ranks)	10% penalty (bits)	% penalty (actual)	10% penalty (hours)	25% penalty (ranks)	25% penalty (bits)	% penalty (actual)	25% penalty (hours)	50% penalty (ranks)	50% penalty (bits)	% penalty (actual)	50% penalty (hours)
1	200	2	0	20	9.98%	0	0	50	24.95%	0	1	100	49.94%	1
25	5300	47	3	558	10.53%	5	6	1384	26.11%	12	13	2728	51.47%	24
50	11225	100	5	1235	11.00%	11	13	3041	27.09%	27	25	5925	52.78%	53
75	18050	160	8	2031	11.25%	18	19	4971	27.54%	44	38	9591	53.13%	85
100	24950	222	10	2945	11.80%	26	25	7175	28.76%	64	50	13725	55.01%	122
150	41175	366	15	5130	12.46%	46	38	12403	30.12%	110	75	23400	56.83%	208
200	59900	532	20	7790	13.01%	69	50	18725	31.26%	166	100	34950	58.35%	311
250	81125	721	25	10925	13.47%	97	63	26141	32.22%	232	125	48375	59.63%	430
300	104850	932	30	14535	13.86%	129	75	34650	33.05%	308	150	63675	60.73%	566
400	159800	1420	40	23180	14.51%	206	100	54950	34.39%	488	200	99900	62.52%	888
500	224750	1998	50	33725	15.01%	300	125	79625	35.43%	708	250	143625	63.90%	1277
750	430875	3830	75	68400	15.87%	608	188	160453	37.24%	1426	375	285750	66.32%	2540
1,000	699500	6218	100	114950	16.43%	1022	250	268625	38.40%	2388	500	474750	67.87%	4220
1,250	1030625	9161	125	173375	16.82%	1541	313	404141	39.21%	3592	625	710625	68.95%	6317
1,500	1424250	12660	150	243675	17.11%	2166	375	567000	39.81%	5040	750	993375	69.75%	8830
1,750	1880375	16714	175	325850	17.33%	2896	438	757203	40.27%	6731	875	1323000	70.36%	11760

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Tertiary Skills: 86 bits/ hour

Ranks	Total Bits	Total Hours	10% penalty (ranks)	10% penalty (bits)	% penalty (actual)	10% penalty (hours)	25% penalty (ranks)	25% penalty (bits)	% penalty (actual)	25% penalty (hours)	50% penalty (ranks)	50% penalty (bits)	% penalty (actual)	50% penalty (hours)
1	200	2	0	20	9.98%	0	0	50	24.95%	1	1	100	49.94%	1
25	5300	62	3	558	10.53%	7	6	1384	26.11%	16	13	2728	51.47%	32
50	11225	131	5	1235	11.00%	14	13	3041	27.09%	36	25	5925	52.78%	69
75	18050	211	8	2031	11.25%	24	19	4971	27.54%	58	38	9591	53.13%	112
100	24950	292	10	2945	11.80%	34	25	7175	28.76%	84	50	13725	55.01%	161
150	41175	482	15	5130	12.46%	60	38	12403	30.12%	145	75	23400	56.83%	274
200	59900	701	20	7790	13.01%	91	50	18725	31.26%	219	100	34950	58.35%	409
250	81125	949	25	10925	13.47%	128	63	26141	32.22%	306	125	48375	59.63%	566
300	104850	1226	30	14535	13.86%	170	75	34650	33.05%	405	150	63675	60.73%	745
400	159800	1869	40	23180	14.51%	271	100	54950	34.39%	643	200	99900	62.52%	1168
500	224750	2629	50	33725	15.01%	394	125	79625	35.43%	931	250	143625	63.90%	1680
750	430875	5039	75	68400	15.87%	800	188	160453	37.24%	1877	375	285750	66.32%	3342
1,000	699500	8181	100	114950	16.43%	1344	250	268625	38.40%	3142	500	474750	67.87%	5553
1,250	1030625	12054	125	173375	16.82%	2028	313	404141	39.21%	4727	625	710625	68.95%	8311
1,500	1424250	16658	150	243675	17.11%	2850	375	567000	39.81%	6632	750	993375	69.75%	11618
1,750	1880375	21993	175	325850	17.33%	3811	438	757203	40.27%	8856	875	1323000	70.36%	15474

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Okay, so what?

So the current penalty is really a 10-70% penalty of the time put into this character. At 1750 ranks, after a warning, a player has to ask themselves. Do they want to risk losing thousands of effective hours of work (because let's not kid ourselves here) multiplied across multiple skills, or do they just want to unsub for a year or more and play a different game. I think the latter looks far more attractive than intended.

What are the other options?

In every case, stop taking away skills. Slower gain is better than a feeling of loss, especially when you're reminded of that loss every time you login. This game is about progression. This game is about the grind, and seeing - TDPs and remembering where skills were is the opposite of fun. In the case on discord, there are various feelings about WHY the person was scripting and SHOULD they script; however, no one seemed to be shocked in anyway that the person was planning on leaving and taking their subs with them. Negative thousands (tens of thousands) TDPs worth of skills and basically feeling the need to script more (like a gambling addict in the hole) to recover them would drive any sane person away. The game has lost a lot of good players this way.

1. In-game consequences. Disturbing the peace charges. Necromancy charges (is that "zombie" a risen?) Non-exp penalties.

2. Throttle xp gain. If you want a behavior, encourage that behavior. Throttle down experience gain outside of REXP. Maybe just scripters under a penalty. Maybe everyone (with a throttle up on REXP). Teach the scripters to only train a certain number of hours a day.

3. Lockouts. Rampant offenders can be given lockouts. A few days to weeks. This can be an escalating number.

4. Remove access to certain features of the game for a set amount of time. Alterations. Raffles. Auctions, etc.. Maybe some of the easier to use hunting areas.

The XP Penalty ABSOLUTELY Has To Stay, For Reasons

Then make it more sane. Make it something the player, with reasonable play time (2-3 hours a day with REXP), could recover from in a month. As it stands, with 1750 ranks in a primary skillset, working 40 hours a week, it would take you over a year to recover from a 10% penalty at 1750, closer to 13 months with legally mandated breaks and holidays, because, again, high-level training is work you're paying to do. That's nuts. That's almost $11,000 worth of time if they instead quit and find a job paying $5/hr, or just quit after the first warning (assuming they can - see multiboxing penalties above).

Mechanics should encourage desired gameplay. Penalties should encourage corrected game play. It's counter-productive to have penalties encouraging players to leave, especially so heavily dependent on keeping existing players. A game like this lives or dies on critical mass, and chasing out decades-old players by wiping away a decade of work they put into building a character hurts everyone. It hurts them, it hurts the community, and it hurts the future of the game.

At the end of the day, nobody forces anybody to AFK script.

You have to be caught twice within twelve months' time to start seeing any serious penalties. As you mentioned, things escalate further in the case of multibox scripting, but that's even more reason to pay attention if you've got more than one character running (or cut down the number of characters logged in scripting away). The way I see it, if you care enough to not want to eat these penalties, don't AFK script. Or, at least, if you were caught once already, then don't keep doing it. It seems simple and reasonable enough.

It can be sad when people leave DR for any reason. But this isn't a matter of people getting dinged for no reason, or out of the blue. The penalty shouldn't have come as a surprise. These people already got warned and, for whatever reason, decided to continue AFK scripting anyway in spite of it. Thus, I think the penalty of XP/TDP loss fits the crime. You lose what you gained by continuously and unapologetically breaking policy. Additionally, if people aren't willing to stop AFK scripting even with their TDPs and stats on the line, I don't really see how a less severe penalty would curb that behavior, either.

That being said, I think that throttling XP gain (and wealth gain!) is a good idea in general, not just for scripters. I don't think it should replace the current penalty, though.

Just personal opinion here so take it with a grain of salt.

I don't think the current model of punishment deters the behavior it is punishing and to the OP's point it is driving people to quit. I'm not going to debate AFK scripting, i don't like it but i know it's happening. I think the approach of taking benefits away from scripters would be a much more effective punishment. What i mean is this, restrict their ability to travel IG, fine them in-game coins, kick them out of REXP for X weeks/months, disable offline drain (already happens i think), restrict the ability to hand things off to others, like items/coins. Make it more and more inconvenient.

With each subsequent offense, make the restrictions last longer and longer. Maybe cut off their access to the vault and the bank at one point for a period of time. I'm a proponent of using the carrot approach rather than the stick to drive the desired behavior. I'm sure there are other service like things which could be removed as well.

The other thing that could be done is to remove XP like we do now along with the STAT drop but make it so it lasts a month or something and then it's reverted back to the original with other offenses taking longer and longer to reset.

Ultimately, i'm not sure i care enough what happens but i don't think the current system is having the intended benefits.

Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.

>>1) I think is pretty easy in the context of this discussion. The thrust of your argument is that the penalty is too harsh, yet people cannot stop themselves and break the rules anyway. Ok, so we can't rely on deterrents - we actually have to stop them from gaining experience because they cannot stop themselves. I would suggest that capping their experience gain at 4 hours per day (and taking away REXP) for increasing amounts of time based on offenses would be a reasonable punishment. The people simply would not be able to gain the benefits of 24/7 AFK scripting.

>>2) If 1 were put into place, the next thing we should look at is how to stop breaking the rules from being a good bargain anyway. For example, if I can reasonably go a year AFK scripting 24/7 and get only 90 days of 4 hours of experience per day, it's still a better bargain to just accept the punishment and do the scripting. The real problem is that it's so hard to catch AFK scripters with modern scripting methods. This is why the existing penalties are so high - we KNOW they've probably been getting a year or more of 24/7 experience, so the penalties need to approximate that. If the skill penalties are going to go down, then the ease of catching people needs to go up. But this is also difficult because we don't want to make people paranoid about looking away from the game for a second. We don't want to penalize bathroom breaks.

>>I would suggest an entirely new method of script checking. Script checks would always use the same text, be highlighted yellow, easy to trap for, and be SUPER OBVIOUS to the player of what they are. Once a script check has been initiated, the player has X number of minutes to have a conversation with the GM and convince them that a real human is responding. Disconnecting would not be a valid excuse here, since the script check would be obvious and we don't want people to just log when it happens. I could see one warning given for discos, but frankly, that's going to be a rare occurrence. The understanding should also be there that your uptime over time will influence how often you are checked. If you've been going 24/7 for 3 months straight, you should get used to checks every few hours.

I like the ideas, i do think however that you may have too much of a GM time sink in the entirely new method of policing. That could generate a lot of conversations per night and GM labor is not what it used to be already. Not sure what the right answer is but it's an interesting conversation.

Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.

i 2nd this!

> Losing 10 ranks at 100 may take a day or so to get back to 100, but at 1750, earning those 175 ranks will take a lot more time. I would guess months, but i don't know how much rank you can earn per day at those ranks.

175 ranks shaved off the top is about the same amount of time as it took you to get 632 ranks in that skill. For a barbarian, that's basically wiping out the first 111 circles. For a paladin, that's the first 141. It's 133 for a moon mage.

If while trying to regain those ranks you get hit again or you were hit for the first time with two accounts in one room, you've now lost 437.5 ranks off the top. That's 757,959 bits. That's just under 1048 ranks, or enough for any guild to have hit 150+.

> but doesn't work once you hit 1750 in enough skills.

It would still hurt, because no one in prime or plat should 1750 ranks in a lot of tert skills. It someone in TF, what? 9 years of 24/7 scripting to get the first tert skill to 1750? If someone has that in prime then their character has spent at least 12 hours scripting in game for the last 18 years.

> If the intent is to punish, but not to cause people to quit

People would still quit.

> What i mean is, those skills that hit 1750, aren't going to move forward, so preventing future bits/exp is kind of pointless (for those skills). I would still like that as a penalty in general, because it's not pointless.

What I'm saying is that there will always be skills you want to move. No one will have everything capped. No one could have everything capped. So a future penalty is never pointless.

That's what i mean in the last sentence. It is worded poorly, but i mean that even if it is pointless for capped skills, it can still be used on other skills. It's a good suggestion.