MISSING33
The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 12:48 PM CDT
There are two fairly recent GM consults which I find concerning as a long-term player of Dragon Realms.
Both consults pulled up a complete gamers history and implicated it in the current consult or conflict. This is what I find concerning, Simu has a within the last 6 months rule per policy for conflicts to evaluate a player, which is clearly not being followed.
I feel that it is my obligation to express my fear for the GMs who are currently being used by the report system to handle these consultations. I fear where once the GMs used the ordinances and policies of the Dragon Realms for ethical discerning of a variety of situations: policy is now being pushed to the wayside and now instead of each situation being evaluated individually, an opinion of the player is being used.
This course of action does not offer what everyone player, I feel is strongly entitled too- and that’s ‘Fair Game Play’.
I do understand that when consultations occur the person reporting is often looking for Justice in a conflict. We need to remember that Justice cannot be for one side alone, but it must be for both parties. When a GM has a situation or consultation that they find out of their ability to think clearly on – these consultations needs to be put on hold and evaluated by more than one individual. So, they can be addressed and express a level headed nature that is required to be a non-biased authority figure.
Right now, with these two separate incidents and consultations- which I would definitely point out, both of them being against a fair game play, we have these similarities occurring: Client reports, GM consults, and the GM pulls up gamer “overall” history and proceeds to witch hunt for the possibility of something being of interest related to the player’s overall gaming history, rather than the role play or conflict, of/in the situation- and their opinion of the player rather than the situation is being used for the decision making a resolution. The problem is the resolution is without relevance to the present consultation or issue. Warranting punishment for who one is a player/s, or role play of the character, rather than evaluation of the situation is biased profiling.
It’s wrong. Two points about reporting; firstly, Report does not mean Right. Reporting to report is also form of mech abuse and reflective of who the individual is or their agenda as a player. If you start punishing people for the sake of who reported first and using a players EXTENSIVE past history, you’re going to have a much bigger more complicated issue. (must more evident..cough cough: witch hunt) Such as players not wanting to engage at all with other players in any form of RP manner because if they upset one person and that person reports, they are going to get the stick, especially if they have played the game for the last 20 years and “had their version of fun” or a ‘colorful’ gaming history.
KETTLE CALL: plenty of the GMs on current staff have had their fun. And if it did not affect them being hire worthy and personally selected for their gracious volunteer work… Why would it be used on your player base for report-based consultation evaluation?”
And you have to keep in mind; Roleplaying can be full of chaos. This Chaos can be number of things or feelings; fun, terrible, hard, and it can seem like the best time of your life. I feel this is really why a game like Dragon Realms has survived for so long. It’s a completely enjoyable adventure and has so much dynamic.
So if we could stop making the player pool the reason why Dragon Realms is not retaining people. That would be great. Your player pool is your bread and butter, not your enemy. Dragon Realms started being unable to retain players once gaming went visual. Lack of guild balance, under development of hunting areas, story lines, questing, and the corporation “what do we do with a 20 year old game that’s still a live” -is why DR isn’t retaining more players. Griefers are a point of perspective over who ‘feels’ wronged, threatened, or doesn’t feel they are accountable for their actions in a role playing game.
Side note: there has not been any ‘90s styled griefing in forever (LET IT GO, PEOPLE) the majority of 90’s babies can legally drink now… move along.
So, Stop the Micromanaging of small insignificant issues – And start developing. (duh) And stop with the excuse New player experience – a good New player experience is a myth until you come up with a training area for basics and small area to help them learn how to write scripts in Stormfront…. (Because most people play games with a controller) ….
There is a reason why huge MMOs are going back to old skool gaming with “god mode” and other reinventing/developing features. Chaos/drama is adventure and gives people a reason to subscribe. And a community is based off other players needing each other for trade materials/events. So, if you eliminate or render the craft or task less valuable, you are ridding them (player base) out of their identity and importance to game play.
This is where the roots of this current witch-hunt and even player retention issue are coming from. So let’s move forward and use creative talents to development without completely ripping off other games. Please and Thank you. And turn off the witch hunt on your player population. (fyi) They are all you got! So chill out.
Per your Rules of Conduct:
VERY IMPORTANT: Keep in mind that although GameMasters serve as Customer Service representatives, their main responsibility is to preserve the integrity of the game's rules and balance, and in situations where customer service may conflict with preserving the integrity of the game, the GameMaster is required to put the rules first.
CURRENT POLICY:
News 5 24
"Non-physical" attacks:
Advancing someone DOES give the other party consent. They should not have to wait until they have a blade in their chest to defend themselves. If you are advancing on someone, that is a direct threat to their person and they have to right to react in a reasonable and IC fashion.
Any statement, emote or action used in a negative manner against another player has the potential to be considered consent, especially when it is deliberately used to goad the target into a physical encounter.
News 1 31
Dateline 1/13/2015: SPOUSES AND CONSENT
Couples who are legitimately "bonded" through the proper ceremonies using the Saemaus rose will be allowed "consent" in situations where their spouse is concerned.
In short, if your actions grant consent to someone's wife/husband or partner, their spouse is considered to have consent as well
News 5 17
Utilizing Character "Bots":
Any participation in the use of character "bots" witnessed by Staff, even if the unresponsive character is not connected to your account and you currently are not in violation of this policy, will be considered against policy and may result in a warning and/or other penalties.
You've gone Missing
JINGO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 01:48 PM CDT
If a pattern of behavior is well established over a very long term, then by all means it should be considered. If someone has spent the last 10 years skirting policy and rules lawyering every interaction with staff, then that 10 years of behavior is worth consideration and they'll consider it. If that person has turned over a new leaf suddenly and are no longer going to be a problem player, then their extensive history as one is going to demand that more time be taken to demonstrate good behavior.
I don't know what 'witch hunt' you're crying foul about - if someone has a history of waiting until the 6 month timer you mention is up and then going and causing trouble again, then the solution is to not give them that leniency. It's not a go-ahead to be a problem again, it's supposed to keep you from getting too harshly punished when disparate problems occur. Lets say February 1st you dropped an F bomb on the gweth. Got a warning. Whoops! August 20th you killed someone without consent. These don't necessarily mark you as a problem player.
But if February 1st you were harassing new players and got a warning for it, and then come August 3rd you're like "ok I should be in the clear" and do it again, get your warning, and then come February 5th do it again, ad infinitum - then you're not really adhering to the rules. You're flouting policy.
This seems relevant.
News 5 2
"In certain situations, the overall pattern of behavior on an account or a set of linked accounts may be determined to be disruptive or abusive, even if no one single act clearly violates any specific policy."
"In such cases, Simutronics reserves the right to determine what patterns of behavior are defined as "high-maintenance" or "disruptive" and may take action against the account(s), ranging from a simple request to moderate/control the high-maintenance behavior, to total lockout of all linked accounts."
What this means:
Sometimes, people insist on living in the "grey area" of policy, punctuating their "borderline" behavior with comments like "Well, I didn't ACTUALLY break any policy, so you can't do anything about it." The GM and Host staff spends excessive amounts of time dealing with these "high-maintenance" customers who continue to push the boundaries of appropriate activities, while still "technically" staying within policy guidelines. This time could be better spent planning and running role-playing events, developing the gaming world, and/or helping out customers who have legitimate needs and concerns.
Players who seem to want to do nothing more than cause problems or disrupt other customers in-game, repeatedly ASSIST or REPORT over inappropriate or trivial matters, harass GMs or Feedback with unsolicited or vulgar email, repeatedly "flame" or harass players or staff members on the message boards, or are habitually involved in "grey-area" or "judgement call" PVP/CVC situations will see the following happen:
1) First, the player will be advised to stop the activity in question and the player will have this "verbal warning" noted in their logs.
2) If the problem continues, the player will be removed from the game and consulted by a GM. Notification will be given to the player that continuation of this activity (or combination of activities) will result in further disciplinary action. This will be logged in the player's record.
3) If the problem continues, the player will receive an official warning and be placed on "probation" for 30 days. If ANY other "high-maintenance" behavior is exhibited during this period of probation, the player will receive a full-account lockout for no less than 30 days. (In some cases, such as continued abuse of REPORT or ASSIST, the ability to REPORT or ASSIST will simply be removed first, in lieu of a lockout, with additional inappropriate behavior resulting in the account being locked out.)
Players who are identified as "High Maintenance Customers" due to the amount of time the staff spends dealing with problems created by, centered around, or as a result of their behavior, can lose any or all benefits and privileges that are associated with "non-problem" customers including (but not limited to): the ability to ASSIST, the ability to REPORT, the ability to CURSE, SHUN, or THUMP, the right to have Feedback appeal/review any in-game decisions, the right for the Community Manager to appeal/review any Feedback decisions, the right to replacement or compensation related to item loss, or the ability to participate in large-scale events, quests, or festivals.
You may ask, "How will I know if I'm a High Maintenance Customer?" As mentioned above, players who are approaching this point will be advised of this fact by a GameMaster. If a player continues the same (or other) activities determined to be indicative of a problem, a Full GameMaster may request HMC status for that player. This request will be reviewed by the Senior GameMasters and if they agree with the FGM's assessment, it will be passed to the Community Manager for final approval. Any player labeled as a "high maintenance customer" will be told of their classification by a Senior GM and will have the reasons for this classification explained to them, as well as what the player will have to do to remove this classification. Depending on the severity of the problem(s), a player can have the HMC classification removed after a pre-determined amount of time has passed with no other problems.
I don't know what 'witch hunt' you're crying foul about - if someone has a history of waiting until the 6 month timer you mention is up and then going and causing trouble again, then the solution is to not give them that leniency. It's not a go-ahead to be a problem again, it's supposed to keep you from getting too harshly punished when disparate problems occur. Lets say February 1st you dropped an F bomb on the gweth. Got a warning. Whoops! August 20th you killed someone without consent. These don't necessarily mark you as a problem player.
But if February 1st you were harassing new players and got a warning for it, and then come August 3rd you're like "ok I should be in the clear" and do it again, get your warning, and then come February 5th do it again, ad infinitum - then you're not really adhering to the rules. You're flouting policy.
This seems relevant.
News 5 2
"In certain situations, the overall pattern of behavior on an account or a set of linked accounts may be determined to be disruptive or abusive, even if no one single act clearly violates any specific policy."
"In such cases, Simutronics reserves the right to determine what patterns of behavior are defined as "high-maintenance" or "disruptive" and may take action against the account(s), ranging from a simple request to moderate/control the high-maintenance behavior, to total lockout of all linked accounts."
What this means:
Sometimes, people insist on living in the "grey area" of policy, punctuating their "borderline" behavior with comments like "Well, I didn't ACTUALLY break any policy, so you can't do anything about it." The GM and Host staff spends excessive amounts of time dealing with these "high-maintenance" customers who continue to push the boundaries of appropriate activities, while still "technically" staying within policy guidelines. This time could be better spent planning and running role-playing events, developing the gaming world, and/or helping out customers who have legitimate needs and concerns.
Players who seem to want to do nothing more than cause problems or disrupt other customers in-game, repeatedly ASSIST or REPORT over inappropriate or trivial matters, harass GMs or Feedback with unsolicited or vulgar email, repeatedly "flame" or harass players or staff members on the message boards, or are habitually involved in "grey-area" or "judgement call" PVP/CVC situations will see the following happen:
1) First, the player will be advised to stop the activity in question and the player will have this "verbal warning" noted in their logs.
2) If the problem continues, the player will be removed from the game and consulted by a GM. Notification will be given to the player that continuation of this activity (or combination of activities) will result in further disciplinary action. This will be logged in the player's record.
3) If the problem continues, the player will receive an official warning and be placed on "probation" for 30 days. If ANY other "high-maintenance" behavior is exhibited during this period of probation, the player will receive a full-account lockout for no less than 30 days. (In some cases, such as continued abuse of REPORT or ASSIST, the ability to REPORT or ASSIST will simply be removed first, in lieu of a lockout, with additional inappropriate behavior resulting in the account being locked out.)
Players who are identified as "High Maintenance Customers" due to the amount of time the staff spends dealing with problems created by, centered around, or as a result of their behavior, can lose any or all benefits and privileges that are associated with "non-problem" customers including (but not limited to): the ability to ASSIST, the ability to REPORT, the ability to CURSE, SHUN, or THUMP, the right to have Feedback appeal/review any in-game decisions, the right for the Community Manager to appeal/review any Feedback decisions, the right to replacement or compensation related to item loss, or the ability to participate in large-scale events, quests, or festivals.
You may ask, "How will I know if I'm a High Maintenance Customer?" As mentioned above, players who are approaching this point will be advised of this fact by a GameMaster. If a player continues the same (or other) activities determined to be indicative of a problem, a Full GameMaster may request HMC status for that player. This request will be reviewed by the Senior GameMasters and if they agree with the FGM's assessment, it will be passed to the Community Manager for final approval. Any player labeled as a "high maintenance customer" will be told of their classification by a Senior GM and will have the reasons for this classification explained to them, as well as what the player will have to do to remove this classification. Depending on the severity of the problem(s), a player can have the HMC classification removed after a pre-determined amount of time has passed with no other problems.
JTIZEL4SHO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 02:07 PM CDT
All that being said when a gm completely disregards policy and intrudes his personal feelings towards a person and uses that to create a disciplinary decision that is against policy... That is wrong. I keep eet short and sweet guys. ;)
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
MISSING33
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 02:14 PM CDT
>If a pattern of behavior is well established over a very long term, then by all means it should be considered. If someone has spent the last 10 years skirting policy and rules lawyering every interaction with staff, then that 10 years of behavior is worth consideration and they'll consider it. If that person has turned over a new leaf suddenly and are no longer going to be a problem player, then their extensive history as one is going to demand that more time be taken to demonstrate good behavior.
I respectfully disagree that is should be considered or seems relevant. I feel everyone plays for different reasons and well if that player chooses to roleplay something uncomfortable for others, it amounts to more player interaction and role playing opportunity. But I also feel they aren't skirting policy when policy is already a black and white and even has a example section to understand how certain situations play out. That's not lawyering staff - that's playing a game with in the rules. We can all get a head of ourselves, and I feel maybe that's where people feel the GMs are getting lawyered.
Regardless of how we might feel what is relevant and what isn't relevant to a player or character - it doesn't change this extremely important tidbit "GameMaster is required to put the rules first."
-Not your whole gaming career
You've gone Missing
I respectfully disagree that is should be considered or seems relevant. I feel everyone plays for different reasons and well if that player chooses to roleplay something uncomfortable for others, it amounts to more player interaction and role playing opportunity. But I also feel they aren't skirting policy when policy is already a black and white and even has a example section to understand how certain situations play out. That's not lawyering staff - that's playing a game with in the rules. We can all get a head of ourselves, and I feel maybe that's where people feel the GMs are getting lawyered.
Regardless of how we might feel what is relevant and what isn't relevant to a player or character - it doesn't change this extremely important tidbit "GameMaster is required to put the rules first."
-Not your whole gaming career
You've gone Missing
MISSING33
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 02:16 PM CDT
. . . AND definitely not others or their opinion of you
You've gone Missing
You've gone Missing
JULIAN
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 02:25 PM CDT
I imagine this thread is about Fahijeck and Cayra?
GMs have always had latitude to look at someone's history when deciding what kind of corrective measure to take with them. If anything, players with long histories of being griefy have historically been given a ton of latitude to the detriment of the rest of the game. Tightening up on that is a good thing. Not letting people who clearly should know better tap dance along the line then beg for the benefit of a doubt is a good thing. Valuing the spirit of the rules over the letter is a good thing - though in these two cases IMO both those things lean in the same direction.
Mazrian
GMs have always had latitude to look at someone's history when deciding what kind of corrective measure to take with them. If anything, players with long histories of being griefy have historically been given a ton of latitude to the detriment of the rest of the game. Tightening up on that is a good thing. Not letting people who clearly should know better tap dance along the line then beg for the benefit of a doubt is a good thing. Valuing the spirit of the rules over the letter is a good thing - though in these two cases IMO both those things lean in the same direction.
Mazrian
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 02:38 PM CDT
This reads rather like a sovereign citizen document. I don't think you've done yourself any favors here with how this argument is being presented.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them." -Raesh, on history
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them." -Raesh, on history
JTIZEL4SHO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 02:38 PM CDT
In the end what happened is compared to someone going to prison for a murder they didn't commit even though they had all the evidence to prove he was innocent. This was an attack on a person not a disciplinary act on a policy rule, no rules were broken.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
JULIAN
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 02:43 PM CDT
>>In the end what happened is compared to someone going to prison for a murder they didn't commit even though they had all the evidence to prove he was innocent. This was an attack on a person not a disciplinary act on a policy rule, no rules were broken.<<
Come on, breh.
Mazrian
Come on, breh.
Mazrian
JTIZEL4SHO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 02:53 PM CDT
Tread lightly with saying breh, breh eet can get you banned.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
DR-IOCANTHE
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 06:06 PM CDT
As a reminder, the forums are not the place to try to sort out a question a player has about an interaction with staff. Feedback is a good place for that, as no GM will respond to an individual issue on the forums.
I did want to chime in, though, to say that every warning a character, that account, and any linked accounts have ever had weighs in during a conversation with staff.
If you got 3 warnings 12 years ago and have played more or less non-stop since then without any issue, that paints your current situation in one light.
If you have 12 warnings in the last 3 years, that's something else.
If you have 5 accounts and each of them has 3 warnings except this one that has no warnings but is linked, that gets factored in.
If you got a warning on this account 5 years ago and stopped playing immediately after, then started up again and got another warning, that counts differently, too.
If you've been the reason some policy clarifications got written, or the reason some code gets written so that other people can't do what you just did, that also weighs on you.
As we get the new crop of GMs ready to work with you all, we'll be able to work on new and simplified policy. Policy should not have to detail every move you can make. You're (mostly) not children who should require that level of supervision.
Were I to sum up the direction of policy, it'd be something like this.
Treat each other as if you were decent human beings, because you are.
Iocanthe
Doing stuff
I did want to chime in, though, to say that every warning a character, that account, and any linked accounts have ever had weighs in during a conversation with staff.
If you got 3 warnings 12 years ago and have played more or less non-stop since then without any issue, that paints your current situation in one light.
If you have 12 warnings in the last 3 years, that's something else.
If you have 5 accounts and each of them has 3 warnings except this one that has no warnings but is linked, that gets factored in.
If you got a warning on this account 5 years ago and stopped playing immediately after, then started up again and got another warning, that counts differently, too.
If you've been the reason some policy clarifications got written, or the reason some code gets written so that other people can't do what you just did, that also weighs on you.
As we get the new crop of GMs ready to work with you all, we'll be able to work on new and simplified policy. Policy should not have to detail every move you can make. You're (mostly) not children who should require that level of supervision.
Were I to sum up the direction of policy, it'd be something like this.
Treat each other as if you were decent human beings, because you are.
Iocanthe
Doing stuff
DR-ARMIFER
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 06:24 PM CDT
Specifically regarding the "six month" thing that got bantered around:
For some specific situations and specific warnings, we use six months as a metric for if "long enough" has passed. One example is applications to join staff: if you have a warning within six months of your application, you'll very likely be asked to apply again after you demonstrate a "long enough" time has passed.
This is not a universally applicable rule and this is not a promise. There isn't a mechanical "problem clock" to beat when a GM consult, SGM review, or Feedback is examining a situation.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
For some specific situations and specific warnings, we use six months as a metric for if "long enough" has passed. One example is applications to join staff: if you have a warning within six months of your application, you'll very likely be asked to apply again after you demonstrate a "long enough" time has passed.
This is not a universally applicable rule and this is not a promise. There isn't a mechanical "problem clock" to beat when a GM consult, SGM review, or Feedback is examining a situation.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
JTIZEL4SHO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 07:48 PM CDT
That is not what we are even talking about right now we are talking about blatant disregard for policy by a gm and the use of his personal feeling to make a situation happen. I am pretty sure anyone who has read the logs can see what is really going on.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
ODDPALADIN
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 08:03 PM CDT
I'll simply say that some players (not characters, not accounts) are so obnoxious they run people from events or the game as a whole.
I'm not pointing at Flapjacks or his billion policy skirting alts and wife. There are multiple players that show up to an event and I instantly go 'nope, I'm not dealing with their drama today' and leave.
Or they make bait gweths/statements to policy-bang you despite being a few thousand ranks higher, etc.
These people turn the game from an RP situation to 'do I want to lose my current field exp and get grave robbed and/or spam-killed until I acquiesce'. It's not 'playing a villain'.
I'm not pointing at Flapjacks or his billion policy skirting alts and wife. There are multiple players that show up to an event and I instantly go 'nope, I'm not dealing with their drama today' and leave.
Or they make bait gweths/statements to policy-bang you despite being a few thousand ranks higher, etc.
These people turn the game from an RP situation to 'do I want to lose my current field exp and get grave robbed and/or spam-killed until I acquiesce'. It's not 'playing a villain'.
JTIZEL4SHO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 08:14 PM CDT
>Or they make bait gweths/statements to policy-bang you despite being a few thousand ranks higher, etc.<
9/10 people I attack are far higher than me usually the only time I attack that 1/10 is when the intrude theirself in an ongoing pvp situation. I never attack someone lower without that type of consent point being do involve yourself in a pvp conflict that is not with you if you don't want to get an axe to the face. That is also clear pvp consent rules unless the rules change but that is what it is right now. Plans for the future does not matter we are all talking about current rules.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
9/10 people I attack are far higher than me usually the only time I attack that 1/10 is when the intrude theirself in an ongoing pvp situation. I never attack someone lower without that type of consent point being do involve yourself in a pvp conflict that is not with you if you don't want to get an axe to the face. That is also clear pvp consent rules unless the rules change but that is what it is right now. Plans for the future does not matter we are all talking about current rules.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
POWTOW9
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 08:55 PM CDT
Fahijeck sucks. We pretty much fight whenever he’s not camping a safe room
That being said, in the spirit of jurisprudence, fahijek got robbed.
From the logs I’ve seen, he had clear consent. Someone needs to watch the replay
No personal foul. Clear touchdown
MISSING33
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 09:02 PM CDT
VERY IMPORTANT: Keep in mind that although GameMasters serve as Customer Service representatives, their main responsibility is to preserve the integrity of the game's rules and balance, and in situations where customer service may conflict with preserving the integrity of the game, the GameMaster is required to put the rules first.
GMs in DR are given a lot of power and that's not a bad thing at all. They are there- they are handling situations that require critical thinking, it requires fairness, and ability to step back but be assertive - But literally in the policy of conduct of GMs it says they are required to put the rules first.
So literally, that should imply that .. the definition and job description should be about putting the rules first.
People who in other people views, skirt the rules - aren't breaking them. You have to get over it and just watch for when they do. If you pull up enough past enough on all the different gamers in DR, you'd be in some serious trouble for all the conduct rules of DR. Like literally... in a good gest .. think of what happens on the empath guild...
This POST is NOT 1 player consult or even a wife and husband TEAM - it's literally happened to more than "just" fah and cayra - but both their logs are a very interesting read... making me sweat a GM pull.
It's not even about a specific GM because in the different situations it was different GMs, using the same strategy to discern conflict. When the discerning factor should be "the rules"
It because this has happened to more than a handle full of players being evaluated in consultations and the deal breaker rule not being applied, "the Gamemaster is required to put the rules first."
I would love to feel that all of us come from the same home, have the same guidelines for playing with others and what's decent - but... we don't. So, unspoken expectations and evaluations on unspoken expectations/opinions …. seems more than unfair. (especially, when the dr conduct page says 'gm is required to put the rule first'...) People don't read your mind, sometimes they can barely handle reading-comprehending your text...
Yes, your DR Adult-Children are turds. But without them, you aren't GMs. And without GMs, we don't have so many other awesome things. So.... I think the point is made....
You've gone Missing
DRPLAYER1
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 09:18 PM CDT
I can't really follow your posts, perhaps you are writing while frustrated? No one else can see these logs. Lets assume an unfair judgement was handed out like you claim. This is Simutronics's product. Their decision is final. The policy is there to help guide your behavior and set standards. They are not tools to shield bad behavior. The scenario at hand sounds like classic long term disruptive behavior that finally got acted upon. The person who got called up burned through the patience of the player base and GMs.
If you are butting heads with players and GM frequently, even while staying within the letter of policy, you're being disruptive. That isn't tolerated forever. Just to repeat, policy isn't a shield. It isn't meant to protect you. If anything, it's a tool used against you that allows GMs to take more aggressive action if you do cross those lines. Simu doesn't have to let you pay for their service.
If you are butting heads with players and GM frequently, even while staying within the letter of policy, you're being disruptive. That isn't tolerated forever. Just to repeat, policy isn't a shield. It isn't meant to protect you. If anything, it's a tool used against you that allows GMs to take more aggressive action if you do cross those lines. Simu doesn't have to let you pay for their service.
JTIZEL4SHO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/26/2018 09:28 PM CDT
Re: The Witch hunt on 09/26/2018 07:26 PM MST
Links-arrows 1814
Reply Reply Delete Delete
>If you are butting heads with players and GM frequently, even while staying within the letter of policy, you're being disruptive. That isn't tolerated forever. Just to repeat, policy isn't a shield. It isn't meant to protect you. If anything, it's a tool used against you that allows GMs to take more aggressive action if you do cross those lines. Simu doesn't have to let you pay for their service.<
In my opinion everything you said makes zero sense the rules are their for guidelines that players are supposed to follow rules have to be approved by simu. Not by the gm's. When a gm steps outside the rules and does something to you for absolutely no reason that is not the behavior a customer service representative should have. Also, you are speaking as if you know what happened you are kind of just spitting out an assumption without any facts. I would post the logs here but the post would get removed almost everyone has eet though breh.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
Links-arrows 1814
Reply Reply Delete Delete
>If you are butting heads with players and GM frequently, even while staying within the letter of policy, you're being disruptive. That isn't tolerated forever. Just to repeat, policy isn't a shield. It isn't meant to protect you. If anything, it's a tool used against you that allows GMs to take more aggressive action if you do cross those lines. Simu doesn't have to let you pay for their service.<
In my opinion everything you said makes zero sense the rules are their for guidelines that players are supposed to follow rules have to be approved by simu. Not by the gm's. When a gm steps outside the rules and does something to you for absolutely no reason that is not the behavior a customer service representative should have. Also, you are speaking as if you know what happened you are kind of just spitting out an assumption without any facts. I would post the logs here but the post would get removed almost everyone has eet though breh.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
LOCUTIS1
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 03:55 AM CDT
Nothing worse than when someone will see a grey area, use it to their advantage and when that grey area doesn't suit them they start screaming black and white.
Dude, you have seen yourself as a high maintence character cause you play gangster style. You push the boundaries of game play because you like to. It excites you. When you have no consequences and your with in your right, you will admit this and revel in it. I know this cause I've heard you say it over the years.
Your an out there character, some people like you, some people hate you. You have chosen a certain game style. Your not a victim of policy here. I'm seeing someone who has been pinged by a long term and respected GM (Zadraes) who dealt with you through who YOU have been and how YOU have played the game over the years.
Grow up and stop blaming others for your consequences in your life.
Player of Rifkinn
JINGO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 04:01 AM CDT
> Players who are identified as "High Maintenance Customers" due to the amount of time the staff spends dealing with problems created by, centered around, or as a result of their behavior, can lose any or all benefits and privileges that are associated with "non-problem" customers including (but not limited to): the ability to ASSIST, the ability to REPORT, the ability to CURSE, SHUN, or THUMP, the right to have Feedback appeal/review any in-game decisions, the right for the Community Manager to appeal/review any Feedback decisions, the right to replacement or compensation related to item loss, or the ability to participate in large-scale events, quests, or festivals.
I don't see how ya'll are missing this. I posted it below. Did you skip right past it and just assume you knew everything it said? The entire segment is relevant but this seems particularly so.
Don't be such a high maintenance player. At a certain point they're just gonna sigh, shake their heads, and be like "enough." Sounds like you've hit that point.
I don't see how ya'll are missing this. I posted it below. Did you skip right past it and just assume you knew everything it said? The entire segment is relevant but this seems particularly so.
Don't be such a high maintenance player. At a certain point they're just gonna sigh, shake their heads, and be like "enough." Sounds like you've hit that point.
JULIAN
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 05:15 AM CDT
Dude, you pushed the limit one too many times and got clipped for it. Just tske your time like the OG you are and be glad they didn't LO your linked accounts, too.
Mazrian
Mazrian
MISSING33
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 06:17 AM CDT
--As the original writer of this post - I kept this vague on who it was about and who it wasn't about and there is a reason for that. I don't want other people's opinions to muddy the water and start finger pointing. And I did consider the HMC association to what I feel could turn into a major issue. I really truly do appreciate our player base as well as our GMs.
There was another situation where a person was pulled and gaming history from 17 years back was used to discern whether guild traits/gifts used against another player/s were appropriate. The point in that situation is why even pull up a gaming history to say "Okay, so and so is complaining, don't do it - your treading pretty close to me having to hand out a caution or warning". Instead it was responded with "So, since XXXX I can see you've been pulled," and to be honest when I read that consultation, I was somewhat upset and shocked and here is why - This player had been gone from DR a long time (4-6 yrs) before coming back - engaged in a little fun - and then 17 year gaming history was pulled and that's the language/tone the consultation started with - that's pretty aggressive, in my honest opinion.
IN another situation the person was pulled up and the same thing happened again. In this case this player hadn't played since he was like 16 … in '97.
So that's why I am saying something and bringing it to the forums.
I wrote and started this post because it's extremely frustrating as a player to see this happen the first time let alone more than once. DR is a small community and it can be a clique and it loves to label people for things they don't do - There is a lot of gossip and speculation and I find it remarkable the people that believe it - and report or spread it to other people "like" it's the bottom line or latest conspiracy.
You've gone Missing
There was another situation where a person was pulled and gaming history from 17 years back was used to discern whether guild traits/gifts used against another player/s were appropriate. The point in that situation is why even pull up a gaming history to say "Okay, so and so is complaining, don't do it - your treading pretty close to me having to hand out a caution or warning". Instead it was responded with "So, since XXXX I can see you've been pulled," and to be honest when I read that consultation, I was somewhat upset and shocked and here is why - This player had been gone from DR a long time (4-6 yrs) before coming back - engaged in a little fun - and then 17 year gaming history was pulled and that's the language/tone the consultation started with - that's pretty aggressive, in my honest opinion.
IN another situation the person was pulled up and the same thing happened again. In this case this player hadn't played since he was like 16 … in '97.
So that's why I am saying something and bringing it to the forums.
I wrote and started this post because it's extremely frustrating as a player to see this happen the first time let alone more than once. DR is a small community and it can be a clique and it loves to label people for things they don't do - There is a lot of gossip and speculation and I find it remarkable the people that believe it - and report or spread it to other people "like" it's the bottom line or latest conspiracy.
You've gone Missing
ODDPALADIN
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 06:53 AM CDT
PPlayers don't just get pulled because staff is bored. If it's to the point of a consultation review seems pertinent. DR has a large population of cross account players, and people who have spent decades learning how to edge policy.
Checking all accounts and history seems to establish a history of behavior which may indicate needed correction while the micro adheres to the law.
Checking all accounts and history seems to establish a history of behavior which may indicate needed correction while the micro adheres to the law.
JTIZEL4SHO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 10:08 AM CDT
>--As the original writer of this post - I kept this vague on who it was about and who it wasn't about and there is a reason for that. I don't want other people's opinions to muddy the water and start finger pointing. And I did consider the HMC association to what I feel could turn into a major issue. I really truly do appreciate our player base as well as our GMs. <
Agreed whoever thought this was just about me is losing sight of what has been happening for years. The people posting in this manner is using their opinion on Fahijeck as a player and not taking in the fact that policy is policy there isn't a grey area if it is clear cut. Several of the instances the last two years people have endured were very clear and GM's used personal vendetta against said person to give the lockouts /warnings. I take my lock out like a champ breh this isn't my first rodeo but I do have a voice and I know what has been going on for years. It isn't like I am going to quit the game. I'll be back killing you all in no time don't worry about that one it is what I do. If a closed person gives me consent they will die bottom line. If the interjexct theirselves in an ongoing pvp conflict that causes me harm they will die. That is not skirting policy that is following it to the T black and white.
>PPlayers don't just get pulled because staff is bored. If it's to the point of a consultation review seems pertinent. DR has a large population of cross account players, and people who have spent decades learning how to edge policy. <
Also incorrect, a player can get pulled by GM's just because someone has reported them invalidly for something. If more players knew what the policy was and didn't listen to people like sophrona and other people mentoring them that tell them lies on policy this wouldn't happen as much. My advice is read the policy to young players because lets be real there isn't any new players. Maybe new to a guild or coming back after years but DR has no new players. In a graphical game based world that is silly to believe it is only a matter of time before this gets shut down.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
"
JINGO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 01:40 PM CDT
> Agreed whoever thought this was just about me is losing sight of what has been happening for years.
This is inconsistent with
> Also, you are speaking as if you know what happened you are kind of just spitting out an assumption without any facts.
So which is it?
A specific situation or a general matter?
This is inconsistent with
> Also, you are speaking as if you know what happened you are kind of just spitting out an assumption without any facts.
So which is it?
A specific situation or a general matter?
SARAGOS
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 02:53 PM CDT
In general, a business in the US has the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason, unless they are discriminating against a protected class. I don't see anything like that being alleged here.
So why do businesses have policies and codes of conduct? So that their actions seem predictable, so that their employees have guidelines to go by, so that they don't lost the trust of their customer base when people are inevitably banned. But you don't need a "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" sign in order to kick the naked dude out of your store. You can't rules-lawyer their own policies against them.
Nothing to see here on that front.
So, is this decision causing Simutronics to lose the trust of their customers?
I suspect it's quite the opposite.
- Saragos
So why do businesses have policies and codes of conduct? So that their actions seem predictable, so that their employees have guidelines to go by, so that they don't lost the trust of their customer base when people are inevitably banned. But you don't need a "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" sign in order to kick the naked dude out of your store. You can't rules-lawyer their own policies against them.
Nothing to see here on that front.
So, is this decision causing Simutronics to lose the trust of their customers?
I suspect it's quite the opposite.
- Saragos
JTIZEL4SHO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 04:16 PM CDT
>In general, a business in the US has the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason, unless they are discriminating against a protected class. I don't see anything like that being alleged here.
So why do businesses have policies and codes of conduct? So that their actions seem predictable, so that their employees have guidelines to go by, so that they don't lost the trust of their customer base when people are inevitably banned. But you don't need a "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" sign in order to kick the naked dude out of your store. You can't rules-lawyer their own policies against them.
Nothing to see here on that front.
So, is this decision causing Simutronics to lose the trust of their customers?
I suspect it's quite the opposite.
- Saragos<
Ha business decision that is funny. Stillfront is an app based company that took over and has already shut down multiple games do you really think DR isnt next LOL breh.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
So why do businesses have policies and codes of conduct? So that their actions seem predictable, so that their employees have guidelines to go by, so that they don't lost the trust of their customer base when people are inevitably banned. But you don't need a "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" sign in order to kick the naked dude out of your store. You can't rules-lawyer their own policies against them.
Nothing to see here on that front.
So, is this decision causing Simutronics to lose the trust of their customers?
I suspect it's quite the opposite.
- Saragos<
Ha business decision that is funny. Stillfront is an app based company that took over and has already shut down multiple games do you really think DR isnt next LOL breh.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
SQUIRRELYB
Re: The Witch hunt
09/27/2018 07:15 PM CDT
Staff is limited. If your sub isn't covering the cost of staff having to deal with your shenanigans, they have every right to deal with you in an increasingly punitive way. Simu is very tolerant compared to other game companies. They want you to be a part of the game, so long as you aren't driving others away.
As far as GMs sticking to the rules, Jingo pointed out right off the bat the policy that proves Zadraes acted well within his right and dealt with the situation in a way that was commensurate with the player in question and the situation. OP may disagree with this, but that doesn't change the fact that the situation played out according to the established policy.
At some point you have to accept that not everyone wants to play the game the way you do. Forcing yourself on them, whether it's for rp or not, isn't good for the game. We need to retain players to keep this ship sailing, and if that means dealing harshly with the bad apples, good. Being inclusive is a better strategy for long-term player retention.
As far as GMs sticking to the rules, Jingo pointed out right off the bat the policy that proves Zadraes acted well within his right and dealt with the situation in a way that was commensurate with the player in question and the situation. OP may disagree with this, but that doesn't change the fact that the situation played out according to the established policy.
At some point you have to accept that not everyone wants to play the game the way you do. Forcing yourself on them, whether it's for rp or not, isn't good for the game. We need to retain players to keep this ship sailing, and if that means dealing harshly with the bad apples, good. Being inclusive is a better strategy for long-term player retention.
JTIZEL4SHO
Re: The Witch hunt
09/28/2018 02:10 PM CDT
Thanks for all your feedback negative and positive! About everything that could be said has on both sides of the scenario so I assume this will end the thread, Thanks everyone! Make elanthia breh again.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "
