Something something necromancers are a bit of a less restricted murder class but they can't murder all day long.

Something something I hope you aren't discouraged by the opinions of one person and feel free to report them to the moderators on discord if you feel they are bothering you!

The easiest way to prevent losing items is to get favors! Get favors.

Out of game conflict turning into in game conflict? Iunno what to say one that.






"I, for one, think it's nice to have new folks who are excited and already care enough about the game to offer suggestions. We need more of that." -Solomon

Thanks for being in my corner Solomon, come back soon.

>>Out of game conflict turning into in game conflict? Iunno what to say one that.

Unequivocally against policy.

Something something necromancers are a bit of a less restricted murder class but they can't murder all day long.

This is interesting to me. I would think that every guild has the same limitations when it comes to attacking/murdering someone else. What is the point of having policy in place for PvP if you can jump through a loop hole and just join the necromancer guild to attack someone else whenever you feel like it?

Something something I hope you aren't discouraged by the opinions of one person and feel free to report them to the moderators on discord if you feel they are bothering you!

Everyone has an opinion, and I don't feel like everyone has to agree on everything. I care more about how you conduct yourself when there is a differing of opinion. I believe the person in question WAS removed from the discord, although I didn't request it. I just wanted to understand what could happen if she chose to bring the conflict from discord in game to prove she was somehow correct.

The easiest way to prevent losing items is to get favors! Get favors.

I do have favors! Lots of them. But, in GS, during our Duskruin event, I spent upwards of $3000 on MT. I wonder if part of the reason DR is failing so hard in the MT arena is due to mechanics like graverobbing where your $3000 can disappear simply because someone wants to prove a point.

> This is interesting to me. I would think that every guild has the same limitations when it comes to attacking/murdering someone else. What is the point of having policy in place for PvP if you can jump through a loop hole and just join the necromancer guild to attack someone else whenever you feel like it?

This is a question that I and others have already asked. I regard glass orbs as a loophole in the consent rules that needs to be closed. Unfortunately, there has been no official comment on this to my knowledge.

Regarding Discord, I'll not mince words: I think the main DR server is a toxic cesspool, and the only reason I'm even a member is so I can see the official posts by Lyneya - I keep the channel muted. There are some well-meaning people there trying to make it better, but I still can't recommend it. I can understand not liking the Simu forums, but why they chose to semi-legitimize that place instead of making something new of their own is beyond me.

That said, there are lots of better people running around than the loud ones you'll see in the main DR discord. Please don't give up on the game on their account.

- Saragos

Thanks for providing the news articles.

I noticed that #4 is contradicted in the later article. #4 basically states that a necromancer can send any creature to attack you. And then the later article says you can defend against the construct and the necromancer can't attack you.

To me, it sounds like if you want to harass and grief other players, you should be a necromancer because you can use loopholes to avoid PvP policy. You get to attack another character via creatures, and if they attempt to defend themselves (unless it's a construct?), they can just kill you and no longer need the creature to do so.

As for the "loop hole" of their existence, it is merely just a perk of the guild. I don't know what it costs to create a glass construct but the news article says "great personal cost" and i'm going to believe it. There are also many mechanics that all other guilds can benefit from that Necromancers can't. They generally aren't allowed to acceptable inside cities and have mechanics for running them out of or even barring them from entering cities. They are THE EVIL entities in the world, more aligned EVIL then any 'Dark Cleric/Dark Paladin' could ever be. This entitles them to the Guild Privilege of spreading a bit of chaos and death around.

One does not just "roll a necromancer." Anything good and worthwhile will take years of commitment, training, and in this case, isolation from the normal population. They are even barred from some events and the use of some items. SEE: GOD TOTEM.

I don't see the value of allowing that "perk" of the guild to exist. You can roleplay an Evil/Dark character without needing to attack other characters. You shouldn't be allowed to ignore PvP policy that every other player has to abide by simply because you chose to be a necromancer. Everyone should play by the same rules.

Every guild offers different benefits, I'm sure people have carefully considered the benefits prior to making their guild choice.

This entitles them to the Guild Privilege of spreading a bit of chaos and death around.

Sure, but they should be limited to people who enjoy that content (PvP Open-only) so those of us who don't want to deal with that nonsense can still enjoy the game without having to be worried about the player who doesn't have to abide by policy getting angry over an opinion and using their policy-ignoring abilities on you.

You're saying "I don't know why they get this perk," but I don't get why you're saying it.

I stated that I don't see the value (for the game) for only necromancers to be able to attack other players and ignore policy. If there are going to be rules, they should apply to every character in every guild.

For reference, Thieves also get an opportunity to free murder as well.

https://elanthipedia.play.net/Fade_weapons

Any non-Thief possessing one could potentially be subject to attack as long as they carried the weapon.

If you're trying to claim that a necromancer who can ignore policy to attack anyone and a thief who can attack someone carrying a specific item are the same thing, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

This All Is Designed Into The Game. This Is GM Approved.

I'm aware of this. I'm also aware of the following.

Lyneya - 04/20/2018

The official statement is what I posted yesterday while the chat was still closed to comments.

Recently, we have been experiencing some pretty explosive behavior in this community. A few people have been really awful to one another both in game and here on Discord, bullying and doxxing and being inflammatory. This is not behavior that Simutronics as a company supports, and not something that I as a person condone.

Threatening violence and engaging in any sort of personal harassment shall be grounds for immediate account termination. Several accounts were banned from DragonRealms today because of this behavior in game, and if it continues we will not hesitate to ban more.

Please treat one another with common courtesy and respect.

Lyneya - 08/26/2018

As far as “game direction” ... that’s much harder to discuss. My goals work towards returning a feeling of community to the world.

Maybe those designs were an error and need to be reevaluated for the greater good of the community, instead of providing loopholes that allow bullying. Within about 30 days of starting, I was being threatened with one of these loopholes simply because of an opinion with no in game interaction between our characters.

Limiting a necromancer to only attacking other PVP-Open characters doesn't prevent them from roleplaying an evil character. It simply prevents the kind of behavior that appears to be an issue. Also, just because you have a subscription doesn't mean you get to treat other people any way you feel like. Your subscription entitles you to access to the game at the subscribed level of your choosing, nothing more.

If I don't want to participate in that sort of content, why can't I make that choice? I pay my subscription fee too. Why does playing a necromancer overrule my preference to not engage in that sort of play? Shouldn't one of the goals of the game be providing an atmosphere that is fun for the player? Why should your fun come at my expense?

Policy 4 states this is primarily a PvE, not PvP game. So make all PvP content opt-in. Let the people who want to kill each other do so, but leave the people who don't alone.

Necromancers are now an integral part of the game as they provide a central point for quality roleplaying purposes. Necromancers also do not attack, they create creatures that attack without their direction, this is an important distinction. Creating the creatures makes the Necromancer PVP open and subject to attacks. Necromancers can't do it all the time.

From my understanding, a necromancer can create a "risen" that they send after you, to "orb" you. If I were to attempt to defend myself, the necromancer would then be able to attack me as well.

So, even if I wanted to avoid you, you can force yourself upon me, and if I do anything but run away, you can then kill me. If I were the type to want to bully someone else, this seems like a perfect setup to grant me freedom to do whatever I wanted to whomever I wanted. You don't see a flaw in that system?

What if the roles were reversed? Because you've decided to play an "evil" character, anyone in the game can attack you at any time and you can't do anything about it.

I have a feeling you would support this. However, I feel that is a choice that each person should have individually. Just because you want to play a necromancer that doesn't mean that I should be forced to interact with you.

That Lyneya comment, from what I can tell, pertains to directed, focused, and constant harassment of an individual. A Construct kills indiscriminately, even the creator sometimes. It is a focused mindless killing machine, and is just as likely to kill you as it is the 7 people standing next to you before it gets to you. So said, you can die just as easily from a GM planned invasion, but your complaint would fall on deaf ears.

Possibly? I'm not going to speak on her behalf. But I will point out that we're not discussing only constructs. And necromancers aren't GM's, they're other players. A construct is not an invasion.

Also there is a different between a guild having leeway in causing death and a guild having leeway in focused harassment of individual players. No one has that, and if you feel you're being subjected to that you are invited to utilize the WARN command and to report the players through assist, emails, and possibly REPORT.

Please see above, where a necromancer can under current policy send a risen after anyone they choose, at any time. And the player who had the risen sent after them can do nothing about it, because if they do, it grants consent to the necromancer to escalate the situation even further.

Why is the Evil Guild allowed to do Evil Things? Perhaps you might Email the GM in charge of Necromancers for that answer.

I actually started to look back in the necromancer folders because of this discussion. I found the following post to be interesting...

http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Necromancers/Roleplaying%20the%20Necromancer/view/742

Yup. I wouldn't go so far as to say Necromancers are designed to always lose, but in the end - they're not designed to win nor to be fair.

-Raesh

Would you care to comment on the following?

Limiting a necromancer to only attacking other PVP-Open characters doesn't prevent them from roleplaying an evil character. It simply prevents the kind of behavior that appears to be an issue. Also, just because you have a subscription doesn't mean you get to treat other people any way you feel like. Your subscription entitles you to access the game at the subscribed level of your choosing, nothing more.

If I don't want to participate in that sort of content, why can't I make that choice? I pay my subscription fee too. Why does playing a necromancer overrule my preference to not engage in that sort of play? Shouldn't one of the goals of the game be providing an atmosphere that is fun for the player? Why should your fun come at my expense?

I mean, if you're paying to play and its a part of the game you chose to pay to play, what is the complaint?

I'll first state that I knew nothing about necromancers prior to starting. They didn't exist when I played 15 or so years ago. I still know very little about them and would probably know less than I do now had someone not threatened to risen+orb me for having a different opinion than them.

However, I guess my base complaint is that necromancers appear to be allowed to circumvent policy, when they should have to abide by the same rules as all of the other players. We're all playing the same game. If I can't attack a necromancer whenever I feel like it, they shouldn't be able to attack me either. It's called parity.

The issue could be resolved by:
A: Not allowing necromancers to attack anyone except for PVP-open characters. (You're both interested in that type of roleplay)
or
B: Allowing any player to attack a "risen" without giving the necromancer consent. (This prevents baiting/harassment, although I think option A is more appropriate.)

I've heard complaints about "baiting" people for consent. I didn't quite understand all of it at first, but I now understand how necromancers can use risen to attack, baiting someone to defend themselves, where they would gain consent to kill (possibly? probably? Who knows? NEWS was contradicting). At a minimum, it's a loophole to attack PvP-closed characters, at a maximum it's game mechanics abuse. (They're basically attacking someone who has defined their character as not wanting that conflict, but they're going to get that conflict whether they want it or not.)

Reading Policy 11:

Player vs Player Conflict

DragonRealms has been designed to promote competition as player vs. creature, or player vs. puzzle, and not generally player vs. player.

...

Also, some players will choose to roleplay a competitive situation between themselves, and will combat each other, which is acceptable.

I'll point out where policy 11 states players will CHOOSE. If I am choosing to avoid that type of roleplay. Please respect my choice.

You're saying you don't like it, what about everyone else who enjoys it? What about everyone who plays a Necromancer enjoys it?

I would ask, do you only enjoy playing a necromancer when you can attack other people?
Would you explain how your enjoyment is lessened if people don't want you to attack them?
Are you only able to play your necromancer if you can attack other characters who may want nothing to do with you and that type of roleplaying?

Also, what is the purpose of having PvP stances if they are invalid to a necromancer?


The player of a necromancer could seek out other players who CHOOSE to enjoy that type of roleplay as much as they do. I don't understand why they would want to force someone to play with them if they've made it clear they don't want to.

I'll repeat what I stated earlier, why does one persons enjoyment have to come at someone else's expense?

And if the only way they can enjoy their time here comes at the expense of someone else's enjoyment, is that healthy for the game?

Is it better to have 1 person who likes the freedom to attack whomever they want, whenever they want, or is it better to have all the people they're potentially creating conflict with?


Or I dunno, is there maybe a happy medium? Where they can still have their freedom, but only with people who also choose to play the same way they want to play?

A part of that is Necromancer attacks, just like monster invasions, or a plague or something else that may do something detrimental for your character but is a designed facet of the game.

I feel like the point you're missing is that a necromancer attack isn't just like a monster invasion or a plague. AFAIK, monster invasions or plagues are GM events. A necromancer attack is a player choosing to attack another player. I can choose to avoid that invasion, (and hopefully plagues!?!? What the heck are plagues?!?), but I apparently can't choose to avoid the necromancer, because someone wants to force their idea of roleplaying upon me. And that I disagree with. We all come here for different reasons. Everyone should be able to enjoy the game without ruining the enjoyment of the game for someone else.

Its why they created a system that lets you protect yourself from such bad things, like getting Favors, and how when you die you don't drop your weapon, it stays in your hand. Not to mention the updated Janitor that helps you regain some lost things especially if you have them registered and the janitor eats it on accident.

Could it be why they have the PVP setting? Where you can choose to be open or closed? Isn't that also part of the system that lets you protect yourself from things you don't want to participate in?

If you see a Necromancer doing Necromancer things you are free to leave the area (assuming you aren't killed first) so you don't have to participate in it. OH BUT I DONT WANT TO well some times you just have to, just like when an invasion happens and you have to get off the streets or end up dead. Stomping your feet about it won't get you anywhere, its built into the game, and has been for some time.

Oh, I will. That was my whole point which may not have been clear. I will gladly walk away. The reason why this whole thread was started was because it was made clear to me that I didn't have the option to walk away. They would hunt me down and orb me whether I wanted to participate in something like that or not.


One thing though, it appears that risen are a relatively new addition to the game (2018?). I think it's safe to say that if new additions create new problems, it's not unreasonable for those new problems to be addressed. Especially considering the 2 posts by Lyneya that I copied and the goals stated in those posts (More healthy community) + policy rewrite.


I'm a fan of K.I.S.S.

Everyone should have the same rules, just find like-minded people to participate in the type of roleplay you enjoy. I'm here to have fun, not conflict that devolves into whoever has the most ranks. I've been here a month, I'm clearly on the losing side of that game, and that's not fun for me.

Now, if there is some type of roleplaying event that is player created, where you want to attack a town (I claim this town, who dare defies me!), and I CHOOSE to participate and end up dying. I'm perfectly fine with that, I made the choice and that was the outcome, so be it. But the, I hate your opinion, and now I'm going to kill you, and guess what, you can't do anything about it, is not okay. Especially when policy is obscure on if it's even allowed or not.

I think this thread is an excellent summary of why the game's consent policies are irrevocably broken.

Let's keep this one focused on discussing policy and not each other, please.

Helje
DragonRealms Senior Board Moderator

And to think all of this came from a single sarcastic comment in the same discord channel where the OP was complaining that people werent playing the game in a way that he approved of and therefore should have to change their playstyles.

Funny how things go full circle, eh?

This isnt GS. If you love GS so much, go play GS. This is DR and its very much its own beast complete with its own set of community standards, rules, acceptable and unacceptable behaviors, positives and negatives.

-Nsar

>> This isnt GS. If you love GS so much, go play GS. This is DR and its very much its own beast complete with its own set of community standards, rules, acceptable and unacceptable behaviors, positives and negatives.<<

Attacking someone in game because you had a tiff with them in Discord is not consistent with any community standards or rules in DR. If that is part of someone's play style then it should change, and they should be encouraged to change.


Mazrian

> I think this thread is an excellent summary of why the game's consent policies are irrevocably broken.

Agreed. Orbs and critter capture boxes aren't the only ways people use to circumvent the pvp policy, either. I've also seen people pop into a busy room and intentionally set off several area of effect in rapid succession, killing players within seconds.

It's a method of griefing that's only punishable by being locked PVP open. Chances are the person doing it is already PVP open anyway, so it's not much of a penalty IMO. This kind of behavior is the main reason I avoid gatherings in game. It's disrupted many good RP situations. People just leave or die when they see the orb drop, and that's the end of it. Interaction over.

Using orbs and creature catchers expressly to circumvent the PVP policy is exactly why they are and always have been a terrible idea. If someone can't locate you and kill you themselves, why is it acceptable for them to do it vicariously through a summoned creature? If I paid someone to kill you, that would be against policy even though I'm not in control of their actions. How is this any different?