First, what it says when you type >PROFILE HELP PVP

>1. OPEN - This setting indicates that you welcome any conflict with any person at any time. This is a dangerous setting and should not be chosen lightly, as it will leave you open to random attacks without any recourse available from a GM. Basically, if you have this set, you are on your own when it comes to PVP and you accept that completely.

>. GUARDED - This setting indicates that you are open to PVP conflicts, provided you're aware they're coming. This option is good for people who enjoy PVP and enjoy "GM-less" conflict, as long as all parties involved are consenting and have agreed beforehand what's going to happen."


I'm a little nervous about stealing from a player and being locked OPEN now. Doesn't that seem a little harsh? I want to ask why not lock thieves to GUARDED instead? That still allows for retribution against you, without making you a target for any number of people who aren't involved, who may potentially not even be aware of your crimes.

A while ago I was located and killed, with absolutely no roleplaying involved - more the opposite, it was very OOC. My attacker simply declared "Rikt" which I guess is slang for "wrecked", and vanished, to go kill another person. My only interaction with anyone in the past two weeks prior to that was to offer some boxes to someone - so I had done nothing to provoke this attack. I'm guessing the guy was just profiling random names to find someone he could gank, and my number came up. So I thought about it, and decided I wasn't yet ready to welcome any conflict with any person at any time. I'm told its fun, and I was hoping to someday experience that fun, but I still sometimes shake a lot just hanging around talking to people, so I need to take baby steps before I start PVP stuff. That's who I am and I'm fine with that.

Another thing I'd like to bring up for the discussion:

>NEWS 5 24:
>Claiming to be role-playing an insane person, serial killer or mass murderer is not an acceptable reason for engaging in unprovoked PvP. While we are working to encourage players to settle their disputes in an IC manner as much as is conceivably possible -- this will never be a reasonable defense. Whenever feasible, we will be looking to utilize and implement IC repercussions. These include things like the justice system, guild-specific punishments etc. Interpretation: Do the crime, do the time.

>So when is it truly Unconsented PvP?

>Obviously, we cannot cover every possible scenario that will arise. When one player attacks or kills another without a determinable cause, that is potential grounds for unconsented PvP. This includes players getting involved in conflicts that do not involve them in any direct fashion. It covers those who like to bully younger players, inciting them into an altercation without their knowledge of policy or what their options are as far as response goes. If it is clearly obvious that this is the case, please expect that we will pursue the instigator in regard to Disruptive Behavior if the situation is not resolved quickly and to everyone's satisfaction. Attempts to "hide" behind Policy will no longer be tolerated. Interpretation: Pick on somebody your own size who's willing to throw down with you, or expect to find yourself on the wrong side of the law.

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I just want to make it perfectly clear, I'm not upset about being killed! If I understand correctly, because I was set to OPEN, I consented to it. (If this is not the case, I would really like to know.) I just want to be more careful going forward. And I feel that it makes it really hard to roleplay a thief if you can't steal from someone without accepting this very un-roleplay-ish environment along with it. Being set to RP HEAVY and PVP OPEN seems like an oxymoron.

The situation I visualize is:
* An RP HEAVY thief character steals from someone, locking them to PVP OPEN for a time.
* Regardless of whether or not the person who was stolen from responds, or is even aware of the theft and the culprit, a third party, who is also unaware of the theft, targets the thief and kills them.
* Under normal policy, this is a big no-no! You need a reason to attack someone! (NEWS 5 24)
* But the thief has no recourse, because of being temporarily PVP OPEN?
* Thief wonders if life is better as a Paladin, never steals again.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

>There is no 'win' for the theft victim. They can't reasonably prepare. They just have money vanish.

This is how I felt about being ganked. No warning, no preparation, just a few hours of training stolen away - on top of the hours I need to spend draining as a F2P character. The attack cost me over 8 hours of productivity and growth. So I get what you're saying. It still seems really harsh to me. As far as I can tell, the only difference between OPEN and GUARDED is that OPEN players forfeit the right to be aware the first strike is even coming.

Ideally, perhaps, if you steal, or attempt to steal, from many people within a certain time frame, you get locked OPEN. Or maybe only if you make over a certain amount of platinum in profits? But that is still weighted somewhat poorly. If you only got locked OPEN for stealing, say, over 10 platinum of coin, and were then killed, the chances are you still lose more than the person you stole from. Most people in the game probably consider a thousand platinum as sofa cushion money. I've seen new characters yelling at people to stop giving them so much darn cash! That 10 platinum would take me about 5 days to earn back from legitimate means. But a lot of players can boast earning 100 plat in an hour. Not that they'd be able to be stolen from as easily... Anyway.

Personally, as a F2P thief, I have no reason to steal from anyone. My bank is full and I earn about a platinum from skins each time I go hunting. I want to be able to inspire roleplay somehow, without risking the over the top punishment that is PVP OPEN.

Consider that if you are caught stealing, anyone who is aware of it has a right to attack you to try to get the money back. Because you played the role of a thief, any attempt someone makes to punish you is fair game - as long as they're aware of it. That's acceptable, isn't it? Under the GUARDED option, its all above board. If someone I don't know approaches me out of the blue and says, "Hey! You stole from so-and-so, I'm gonna smash your face in!" I'd be happy to oblige getting mercilessly pummeled. Provided I actually did the crime. Even if I didn't steal from anyone, I could roll with that possibility that they think I did. Again, the only difference between OPEN and GUARDED that I can discern, is knowing why the person attacking you is doing it, and that they should allow you to acknowledge their challenge. I'd like a chance to talk my way out of it, too.

I would also like to suggest that the RP HEAVY option is taken into consideration. If a thief's profile lists NONE or LIGHT, then we can assume they're more comfortable with the risks. It's more of a game to them, and less of a story. A thief listed as MEDIUM probably enjoys the interactions with players and the lore of the world and all that, but might be a little tentative at times, or not always up to being "always on" (or this could apply to a LIGHT person.) A thief listed as HEAVY would be someone who would like to craft a story of some kind, and should have as many tools and options available for them to do so.

If someone RP HEAVY went around murdering random people and saying things like "Pwnd", I'd say that probably somehow violates some kind of policy. Or it should, yeah? Even if their victims are OPEN? The same way policy doesn't tolerate the facade of roleplaying mass murderers and serial killers, if an RP HEAVY person is going around stealing from dozens of players over 100 circles smaller than them without retribution, without inciting any kind of roleplay, then, yeah, lock them OPEN. If it happens once or twice a day, then that's just someone being a good thief.

I know the argument that a thief who gets caught on purpose is not much of a thief, nor does it (usually) make any sense for someone to do that. I can't say I have much to say on that matter that hasn't already been thought of by people decades ago. But when I get the guts to do it, I'll figure a way to make it work for me.

Okay, one more thought to consider, sorry I've been all over the place in this reply. If the risk of stealing from a player is being forced OPEN, why not just make it so only OPEN or GUARDED people can be stolen from? It's no more or less fourth-wall breaking than suddenly having a stranger stab you in the heart because you nicked a copper 59 minutes ago, or being unable to smack a smart-mouth in the face because of their PVP stance. If it's a PVP attack, why should it be allowed on people who don't want to participate in PVP at all?

I lost my train of thought like seven times, so if I'm not making much sense, please let me know.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

> I think you're ignoring that PVP stealing can (occasionally) be used to promote positive roleplay interaction between players

So can PvP combat or death.

Stealing is an attack on a person just on their wealth/items instead of their vitality. If you go around engaging against people then you are exhibiting an open playstyle.

I have a multitude of characters all of which are open (at least once I remember to do a profile they are put open) and one of the main reasons for this is RP. First off, very rarely am I randomly killed by anyone on any character and secondly you can turn any of those into an RP opportunity even if it is just for yourself. The world has its psychos who all do things for a wide variety of random and possibly unfathomable reasons but that doesn't protect you from the harm they can cause. Not allowing people to fully engage with you isn't saving your RP it is preventing it. PvP policy and profiles is just an OOC magic shield that instantly stops RP and immersion because you are separating your character from the actual game. All that it does is take the RP potential and put it unevenly in the hands of a player who is scared of (what are now) meager death consequences.

I came back not so long ago from a decade gone, so please forgive me if I'm still getting up to speed. PVP stance is something I missed during my time away, and maybe I'm just still wrapping my head around it.

Based on the definitions posted above, it appears PVP Guarded is what everyone fell under for the first decade+ of the game. PVP is fine so long as it's reasonably in character, and does not resolve into griefing. In contrast, PVP Open essentially puts you in TF, where there is no policy and no expectation of roleplay.

I have a hard time buying the argument that RP was impossible for the first decade of DR, or that wanting to engage in PVP stealing means I want to play TF.

Without the PvP open lock a smart thief can focus on lower level marks and pretty much avoid taking any lumps.

>>>Using a False Cause Fallacy doesn't necessarily help your argument. Those things are clearly related.

I'm afraid I don't follow your meaning (even after Googling for a refresher on False Cause Fallacy).

Please expand.

>>Without the PvP open lock a thief can focus on lower level marks and pretty much avoid taking any lumps.

>>This is a good argument, though I don't recall that actually happening very much in the pre-PvP Open era. Maybe I'm just suffering from selective memory on this one?

I suppose in any system there will be people who use it to gain the most advantage at the expense of others. "This is why we can't have nice things", etc. One solution would be to make a system where stealing money from other players is restricted to people within a nearby range of their own skill. If you try to target someone too small, someone who has absolutely no chance of ever knowing you existed, you could get a message like, "You refuse to tarnish your reputation by going after something so easy. But if you really want to... Enter the command again within the next 30 seconds." And then you get locked OPEN.

Ideally, there would be a buffer zone between "easy enough to make you feel like a god" and "being cruel to newbies". Just a narrow range so you can have that feeling of accomplishment maybe? Just so that the moment stealing from someone is a sure thing, its not like you can't do it. Or maybe... Maybe that's what I want. Yeah! If you steal from someone who can't get revenge, you get locked OPEN. If you steal from someone who still has a shot of noticing you, you stay/get locked GUARDED, and they can have at you for molesting their pockets.

Wouldn't that be a system that pleases almost everyone?

>>So stealing is a PVP attack - I still have to ask then, why is it allowed on PVP CLOSED people?

That's partially why stealing itself sets someone to PvP open. Having coins stolen by other players is a risk DR feels all players should face, but GMs also felt that if someone is actively engaging in it, they shouldn't continue to have a say over if they should or shouldn't be attacked.

>>Correct me please if I am wrong, but if I stole 1 coin from someone, I could potentially - in the very worst-case scenario, which I admit is never going to happen - be hunted down, killed repeatedly, run out of favors, and have my grave robbed, and have no recourse because of being set PVP OPEN?

Kinda? Even someone Open can't be spam-killed by the same people, because that counts as harassment. But as a general concept this could happen.

IMO, player stealing isn't worth it, so I'd just ditch doing it anyway.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Cant believe Im going to admit this but I agree with Samsaren.

If you do a negative action accept a negative possible consequence. Maybe even a series of them. At this point in the game if someone is rolling your character over and over, they most likely have a chat full of pvp lawyers going over your interactions insuring they are safe in the grey to continue.

So before you light that candle, find a clique. Or deal with the results.



Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please. – Niccolò Machiavelli