Hmm. Things got better, but I'm still not getting the exact results that I get in the regular instance. I'm usually able to hide on what I hunt with little problem--they would only spot me occasionally. Before in the test, I couldn't even hide on them anymore, but now I can. However, they'll spot and pull me out of hiding me much more frequently than they do in the regular instance. I usually use Shadows in Prime, so perhaps my results just have to do with a down-tweak in Shadow's potential in 3.0?

Feels much better to me. Haven't done a ton of testing, but I'm not seeing anything that shouldn't be happening.

Just tested some things... Dillos are no longer seeing me load or poach, and someone with 500ish fewer ranks of perception didn't see me load or poach either. Hi5!

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Markat says, "Pleasant people without moral faults, going to church every week and abstaining from sins such as vanity and zombies. Feh...."

I can go for years in intercessors without ever getting touched in Prime. In Test, they rip me to shreds.

I don't think it's unreasonable if some people are slightly under-performing in Test compared to Prime when it comes to hiding. Good to know stealth was fixed so that it's working properly.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

I still get pointed out loading while hidden once in a while, but it's not often and I can sit in hiding indefinitely. But bow damage still sucks. Eight shots with poach to kill something at level.

Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.

How many swings of your sword does it take to kill one?

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>Vinjince, same for me. Yet my hiding is far beyond my combat skills. With no armor on they should not point me out immediately. Thanks for chiming in with nothing and 0 knowledge of the situation.

You're the only one in this thread claiming something is still off. I think it's on you to provide numbers/data or we'll all just continue to have 0 knowledge of the situation. Good luck.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

If you are still having issues, please email me so we can setup a time to test directly.

The fix Armifer applied directly affects actions in hiding such as LOAD, so I suspect you'll see much improvement there...

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

<I am leaning towards making poach/ambush give a moderate to-hit bonus and small damage bonus, and backstab/snipe will have a moderate to-hit bonus and a moderate damage bonus. Backstab/Snipe keep the user in hiding, which is a chief reason why they aren't going to get an even larger damage bonus.

I hope this applies to Vivisection as well.

I just finished stealth, bow, and TM testing vs elders, my regular hunting creature (first time I've tested those hunting in at least a week, maybe two) and things seem much improved. It should probably be noted that elders teach Traim, but are still an "underhunted" creature for him, even in 3.0.

Stealth:

I was spotted poaching at slightly higher rate than in prime, but the data sample was too small to make it meaningful. In terms of "feel," it seemed just right. I didn't test ambushing.

Bow:

Much, much better than before, testing LX and HX. Full aim poach kills: LX is 4-6 shots, HX is 4-5, closer to 4, but with more stuns. I can really tell force of impact difference (I think that's what it would be) coming into play with HX, though I was testing with a slurbow, which is about as cannon as you get for HX. In comparison, with the following 2HE, I kill in 7-9 hits, but still definitely faster. 2HE skill is about 95% of Crossbow skill.

A curving arsenic-etched sword with a ghostly white mistglass grip is a two-handed edged melee-ranged weapon.

You are certain that it could do:
poor (2/25) puncture damage
mighty (17/25) slice damage
fair (5/25) impact damage

You are certain that the sword is reasonably (7/14) balanced and is reasonably (7/14) suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.

You are certain that the arsenic-etched sword is quite guarded against damage (12/18), and is in pristine condition (98-100%).

The arsenic-etched sword is made with metal.
You are certain that the arsenic-etched sword weighs exactly 39 stones.

I don't know how this compares to multi-shot LT still, as that comparison is most clear in PVP and I only know one char with equal LT and Crossbow that's good to test with for me, but I'll try that later. In any case, purely considering my own hunting feel of melee vs ranged, ranged feels a lot better. It kills slower, but the full aim shots "feel" like they pack more of a punch now and aren't just a melee jab that takes 20 seconds. In terms of strength of hit, my 2HE good swings are about 5-7 (Genie subs), LX full aim poach is about 7-8, and HX (slurbow)is 8-10 (mostly 9) with noticeably higher stun rates.

TM:

I tested Burn, PD, and TKT, fully targeted casts, first at 30 mana, then at 100 mana. Burn kills in around 6-7 casts at 30 mana, generally 3 at 100. PD was 8-10 casts at 30 mana, around 5-6 at 100. TKT was around 3 at 30 mana, and around 2-3 at 100.

My general take-away from the TM testing was that there could be a better range of damage between 30 and 100. I would like to see damage and accuracy (if both are affected by mana, I can't tell on to-hit, don't think it is) cap out around 75, and after that, the benefit of mana is getting past barriers (which we totally need in 3.0). Maybe that's asking too much, but it's not really feasible to cast 100 mana spells for the duration needed to kill things (much less characters) in 3.0 (barring multi-shot, see below). This may play out a lot differently at different skill levels or different creatures, that's just my feeling from elder dillos.

Multi-shot is still kill-king by far. It's a pain because I need to cast and break moonblades almost constantly to keep casting it, but in terms of killing fast, it's still far and away the best of any attack I have. I can't really think of any solution though that wouldn't mean making the spell totally pointless for someone who can't cap it, or who has lower magic (same as LT blades really).

It may not need to be changed given the speed of melee (DPS for melee and TKT are relatively close for me), but I'm just noting my results.

<<As for poach and ambush.. they were never really intended to increase damage in 2.0. Backstab was, and snipe oddly was not. The damage increase came as a side effect of more OF = more damage, until everything died in 1 hit. Now they function by increasing OF, which is more of a to-hit bonus than an outright damage bonus.

I am leaning towards making poach/ambush give a moderate to-hit bonus and small damage bonus, and backstab/snipe will have a moderate to-hit bonus and a moderate damage bonus. Backstab/Snipe keep the user in hiding, which is a chief reason why they aren't going to get an even larger damage bonus. --Kodius>>

I don't undstand why ambush and poach get a nerf while backstab gets a boost. I get that snipe and backstab both leave the person in hiding, but by that logic, you should up poach and ambush, since although they snap you out of hiding, you have to re-hide and that is often harder to do, then sneak in a room and snipe/backstab.

As a ranger who uses ambush and poach quite often, I also have to point out, that currently, the best way to train hiding and stalking is to ambush and poach. Will that change in DR3? Please reconsider and give ambush/poaching a moderate damage bonus, please?

Zinaca and her fully-grown raccoon, Shadow

>>I don't undstand why ambush and poach get a nerf while backstab gets a boost.

It's not a nerf, it's making it function in the manner it was originally intended to function.

Poach and ambush were meant to just provide a to-hit bonus, not a damage bonus. The issue is that, in 2.0, to-hit bonuses also translated into damage bonuses.

Now that they're two separate formulas, it's working properly.

>>but by that logic, you should up poach and ambush, since although they snap you out of hiding, you have to re-hide and that is often harder to do, then sneak in a room and snipe/backstab.

I've never had to do this when poaching.

>>As a ranger who uses ambush and poach quite often, I also have to point out, that currently, the best way to train hiding and stalking is to ambush and poach. Will that change in DR3? Please reconsider and give ambush/poaching a moderate damage bonus, please?

Still works as good as it ever did for me. Not a Ranger, but still survival prime.

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When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/

>>I am leaning towards making poach/ambush give a moderate to-hit bonus and small damage bonus, and backstab/snipe will have a moderate to-hit bonus and a moderate damage bonus. Backstab/Snipe keep the user in hiding,

>>Let's cover this again. Backstab removes you from hiding.

It may have been a typo, but I was actually thinking that meant Kodius was considering that backstab would keep the person in hiding.

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When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/

>>I think backstab should remain, far and away, the best single attack damager in the game.

Agreed.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

<<Are you fixing the part where people can still backstab you if you have spot on them?>>

<<Example: I see you hide and advance on me just as if you were out in the open, but just because I don't POINT you out of hiding you can still backstab me? Just doesn't make sense to me.>>

The backstab attack still incorporates a "vs perception" check that fairly determines if you are surprised or not by the attack. Stealth abilities already have a hefty handicap of needing to be hidden for the most part, why should spot effect be added on top of this? Being aware of someone and having them not be "hidden" are two very separate circumstances.

Yamcer

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"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF

>>Easy solution.

Point should just be a method to let other people know someone is in the room.

I don't think it's reasonable to engage in an action that has an RT tacked on if you already know the person is there.

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When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/

>>And prevent people from making stealth attacks.

Passive spot should already do that. That's what everyone is saying.

>>I've never understood why point has an RT for the pointer TBQH.

So people can't spam it.

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When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/

>>And that accomplishes what exactly?

It accomplishes people not spamming it.

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When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/

>>As you so eloquently put. Whooosh. What would spamming point accomplish?

Prevent an action that takes place in roundtime without a counterbalanced roundtime.

In other words, because it takes a roundtime to put yourself into hiding, it takes a roundtime to take someone else out of hiding.

It's a balance issue. I'm sorry that you didn't get that when I first was explaining it in a shorter manner.

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When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/

>>Prevent an action that takes place in roundtime without a counterbalanced roundtime.
>>In other words, because it takes a roundtime to put yourself into hiding, it takes a roundtime to take someone else out of hiding.
>>It's a balance issue.

Not really:

>Face X
>Zero RT point

Try again?

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TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh