Previous
>>...point has a roundtime.
>>It exists to throttle the spam rate.
With no reason.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
GRIM45
TALEEK
Re: Stealth Fix
12/16/2012 05:02 PM CST
This whole thread is going to take a turn for the worse.
MOCKERJB
Re: Stealth Fix
12/16/2012 05:03 PM CST
Backstab has enough drawbacks. If it can succeed on the stealth check, despite the "spot effect," and you as a defender can't react in time, it should be fine. As it is, the ability is locked into more and more of a niche that is difficult to use in a lot of PVP. In 3.0, the inability for it to cause insta-death as easily at level, plus thieves' lack of magical barriers, plus the AOE options out there and the fact that retreat works against those you've spotted, but not pointed...all weighs towards NOT nerfing it in any further manner.
If you want a realistic excuse for the point mechanism, think of hiding less as "behind that bush" and more like "ability to maneuver the body into a very beneficial 'unseen' position at your flank/behind you"- the point action being the act of squaring up to the hider and making sure they can't slip away for a couple moments. That's how I hand-wave it anyway.
If you want a realistic excuse for the point mechanism, think of hiding less as "behind that bush" and more like "ability to maneuver the body into a very beneficial 'unseen' position at your flank/behind you"- the point action being the act of squaring up to the hider and making sure they can't slip away for a couple moments. That's how I hand-wave it anyway.
YAMCER
Re: Stealth Fix
12/16/2012 05:24 PM CST
<<::boggle::>>
<<Please, could you describe for me what actually happens when my character points at another character who is in the 'hidden' state?>>
<<Is it like a magical action, similar to saying the words 'Rumple Stiltskin' which miraculously dissolves a shadowy veil surrounding a character who is at melee range with you in the 'hidden' state?>>
See in DR we have various conditionals that, unlike real life, are binary. These conditionals can either be on or off. An example here is, You are either at missile range, pole range or melee range there is no gradient of ranges that a character can be in. Hiding is a similar nongradient system. A character is either hidden or not. Your character might have the spot effect and can act on hidden characters, but this doesn't eliminate the hidden state that the other character is in. Yes, point is the verb needed to be used to eliminate the psudo-fantasical thing that is "hidden" in this Multiplayer RPG.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
<<Please, could you describe for me what actually happens when my character points at another character who is in the 'hidden' state?>>
<<Is it like a magical action, similar to saying the words 'Rumple Stiltskin' which miraculously dissolves a shadowy veil surrounding a character who is at melee range with you in the 'hidden' state?>>
See in DR we have various conditionals that, unlike real life, are binary. These conditionals can either be on or off. An example here is, You are either at missile range, pole range or melee range there is no gradient of ranges that a character can be in. Hiding is a similar nongradient system. A character is either hidden or not. Your character might have the spot effect and can act on hidden characters, but this doesn't eliminate the hidden state that the other character is in. Yes, point is the verb needed to be used to eliminate the psudo-fantasical thing that is "hidden" in this Multiplayer RPG.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
VEE-REX
Re: Stealth Fix
12/16/2012 06:10 PM CST
Auto-point should exist or it becomes a matter of who can type whatever the fastest.
I shouldn't have to type 'dodge' to dodge someone who is sniping at me. If my character has the defenses to evade then he will evade. Likewise, if my character can see someone hide, then advance on him the entire time, there's no reason for me to have to type 'point'. That's the whole reason of auto-point: if someone is taking aggressive action to my character and my character is able to defend against it, he should defend against it.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I shouldn't have to type 'dodge' to dodge someone who is sniping at me. If my character has the defenses to evade then he will evade. Likewise, if my character can see someone hide, then advance on him the entire time, there's no reason for me to have to type 'point'. That's the whole reason of auto-point: if someone is taking aggressive action to my character and my character is able to defend against it, he should defend against it.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
YAMCER
Re: Stealth Fix
12/16/2012 06:17 PM CST
<<Auto-point should exist or it becomes a matter of who can type whatever the fastest.>>
Auto-point does exist for people doing aggressive actions against your character. When facing a character and they hide, if you have the skill you can auto-point at them, same goes for advancing which is also an aggressive action.
Saying that the backstab/snipe/stealth attack should be negated by an auto-point instead of by a appropriate defense skill such as evasion, shield or parry is a bit much.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Auto-point does exist for people doing aggressive actions against your character. When facing a character and they hide, if you have the skill you can auto-point at them, same goes for advancing which is also an aggressive action.
Saying that the backstab/snipe/stealth attack should be negated by an auto-point instead of by a appropriate defense skill such as evasion, shield or parry is a bit much.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Stealth Fix
12/16/2012 06:46 PM CST
>>Saying that the backstab/snipe/stealth attack should be negated by an auto-point instead of by a appropriate defense skill such as evasion, shield or parry is a bit much.
It works the other way around, actually. There are two contests here: remaining hidden (seeing the snipe, then getting a to-hit bonus if unseen), and your attack versus their defense. Why should you remain hidden if they see you? Why are you still enjoying the mechanical benefits of being hidden (i.e. forcing them to point you, with roundtime) when you have already critically failed the contest? Snipe should have benefits but it should also be a calculated risk, not an "attack but get out of jail free" card.
Point should also have zero roundtime. It's dumb that it takes roundtime to point someone out of hiding, that just skews the balance towards letting them re-hide again, especially if they are survival primary and get the same time hiding as someone else does pointing. It's so stupid.
It works the other way around, actually. There are two contests here: remaining hidden (seeing the snipe, then getting a to-hit bonus if unseen), and your attack versus their defense. Why should you remain hidden if they see you? Why are you still enjoying the mechanical benefits of being hidden (i.e. forcing them to point you, with roundtime) when you have already critically failed the contest? Snipe should have benefits but it should also be a calculated risk, not an "attack but get out of jail free" card.
Point should also have zero roundtime. It's dumb that it takes roundtime to point someone out of hiding, that just skews the balance towards letting them re-hide again, especially if they are survival primary and get the same time hiding as someone else does pointing. It's so stupid.
SPIDER2000
Re: Stealth Fix
12/16/2012 07:21 PM CST
Saying that the backstab/snipe/stealth attack should be negated by an auto-point instead of by a appropriate defense skill such as evasion, shield or parry is a bit much<<
Snipe and poach already do this. If you fail the stealth check you don't get the bonus. If I attempt to snipe and get seen I get messaging that so and so sees my attempt to snipe and alerts everyone. I also get pulled from hiding. Idk sounds a lot like auto point to me. I don't know if backstab is like this or not. If it is then it would become just a normal attack correct? If it doesn't then it should.
SPIDER2000
Re: Stealth Fix
12/16/2012 07:34 PM CST
This much ado about nothing. When a backstab or snipe is attempted there is a stealth vs. perception contest. If the defender wins, backstab becomes thrust and snipe becomes shoot. In both cases the stealther is brought out of hiding.<<
That's really what I thought. Knew it was with snipe but didn't know about backstab. I don't honestly see the problem then. It's a normal attack, same as if the thief stood toe to toe and thrust at ya.
GORTEOUS
Re: Stealth Fix
12/17/2012 12:54 AM CST
>> Auto-point should exist or it becomes a matter of who can type whatever the fastest.
Agreed. The stealth game should be on a more even playing field overall with WATCH gone(or fixed or 3.0 adjusted or w/e), so there is no reason for these sort of dumb technicalities to exist. I'm sure any balance-related backstabbing issues will be brought to attention and tweaked when they are discovered.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Agreed. The stealth game should be on a more even playing field overall with WATCH gone(or fixed or 3.0 adjusted or w/e), so there is no reason for these sort of dumb technicalities to exist. I'm sure any balance-related backstabbing issues will be brought to attention and tweaked when they are discovered.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
