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TIGARCLAW
Some Observations
02/06/2014 05:01 PM CST
Up high end Concentration is not an issue IF you got the skill/stats 100 dics chain ambuishing, runing all this:
You are under the influence of the Sight meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Safe meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Focus meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 21 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 23 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 23 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Dampen meditation, which should last around 38 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Shadowstep meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Darken meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You feel a sense of heightened security, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You feel at home skulking in shadow, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
at 84% concentration after starting all. Can run all that for about 15 min before draining all my concentration. Running 3 to 5 I can maintain concentraition above 80% even while ambushing frequently. Ambuishes take off 1 to 2%. Recharges pretty quick went from 15% back to full in under 5 minutes that part is fair.
Thati s with the following skills ranks (173rd circle):
Inner Magic: 862 01% learning (3/34) Augmentation: 750 01% thoughtful (4/34) Debilitation: 538 01% thoughtful (4/34) Utility: 538 00% dabbling (1/34)
Debilitation seems to move ok with Slash etc. Not overly impressed in the RT/duration of the thing altho I do like the messaging.
Hmm.... was under the impression that more Khri gave stat boots. It appears a lot of "bonuses" and rank boosts not a lot of skill boots. *( sad face.
You are under the influence of the Guile meditation, which should last around 8 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Shadowstep meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Safe meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Sight meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 37 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 38 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 38 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Darken meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Liberation meditation, which should last around 6 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Hasten meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Dampen meditation, which should last around 38 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Focus meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You feel at home skulking in shadow, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You feel a sense of heightened security, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You can sense your augmented cunning, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
Strength : 90 Reflex : 100
Agility : 100 + Charisma : 50 +
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 100
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 100
Only 2 stat boosting Khri in that mess!
Learning rates for Inner Magic not good all those Khri up and all I get after 10 minutes is this:
Inner Magic: 862 01% thinking (5/34) Augmentation: 750 01% considering (6/34)
Debilitation: 538 01% thoughtful (4/34) Utility: 538 00% perusing (2/34)
Please review EXP gains they look to me like they can use a bit of a bump UP. Ambushing kind of mewh just Ambush hitting seems to be a 50/50 proposition. Backstab is good works well. EXP looks great.
Was amushing Assassins with blade skill of 900ish using a very well balanced kertig Small Edged weapon with a guy that has 100 in Agility.
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 05:20 PM CST
Strength : 90 Reflex : 100
Agility : 100 + Charisma : 50 +
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 100
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 100
>Ambushing kind of mewh just Ambush hitting seems to be a 50/50 proposition.
With those stats Id expect you to demolish Assassins in both the Finesse and Power contests, I find it strange that you are only getting an ~50% success rate. Perhaps its due to your low deb ranks which is skewing the contest in your targets favor? Maybe Ricinus could comment on whats reducing his success rate on ambushes?
>Please review EXP gains they look to me like they can use a bit of a bump UP.
I was a little worried about EXP on the high rank end, I think this is a good test case showing that it needs a little help. Would it be possible if having a combo up increased exp reward for its pillar abilities?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Agility : 100 + Charisma : 50 +
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 100
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 100
>Ambushing kind of mewh just Ambush hitting seems to be a 50/50 proposition.
With those stats Id expect you to demolish Assassins in both the Finesse and Power contests, I find it strange that you are only getting an ~50% success rate. Perhaps its due to your low deb ranks which is skewing the contest in your targets favor? Maybe Ricinus could comment on whats reducing his success rate on ambushes?
>Please review EXP gains they look to me like they can use a bit of a bump UP.
I was a little worried about EXP on the high rank end, I think this is a good test case showing that it needs a little help. Would it be possible if having a combo up increased exp reward for its pillar abilities?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 05:28 PM CST
>>With those stats Id expect you to demolish Assassins in both the Finesse and Power contests, I find it strange that you are only getting an ~50% success rate.
Well forgot to metion that the sccess rate really suxed when I had only Spar up. Once I had Cunning up and the other two with additional bonuses I was getting closer to 75% hit rate. Still I really dont expect to wiff at all with near 900 in weapon, those stats, all that khri up AND the weapon was a well balanced Small Edged.
Well forgot to metion that the sccess rate really suxed when I had only Spar up. Once I had Cunning up and the other two with additional bonuses I was getting closer to 75% hit rate. Still I really dont expect to wiff at all with near 900 in weapon, those stats, all that khri up AND the weapon was a well balanced Small Edged.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 05:40 PM CST
>>Hmm.... was under the impression that more Khri gave stat boots.
You can add Avoidance for Reflex, and Plunder for Discipline.
>>I think this is a good test case showing that it needs a little help.
Not really, since I suspect it was done without any use of khri meditate. So, for the investment of 1 or 2 commands, and maybe 10 seconds of RT you are learning (though not quickly locking) the skills you need. If you want to get to high mind states, you'll need to actually invest time and effort. I promise that a magic user doing the amount of training you are doing would have less results, both in exp gain and number of abilities running.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
You can add Avoidance for Reflex, and Plunder for Discipline.
>>I think this is a good test case showing that it needs a little help.
Not really, since I suspect it was done without any use of khri meditate. So, for the investment of 1 or 2 commands, and maybe 10 seconds of RT you are learning (though not quickly locking) the skills you need. If you want to get to high mind states, you'll need to actually invest time and effort. I promise that a magic user doing the amount of training you are doing would have less results, both in exp gain and number of abilities running.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 05:50 PM CST
>>I promise that a magic user doing the amount of training you are doing would have less results, both in exp gain and number of abilities running.
I tend to equate Khri to Barbarian Inner Fire abilities. Running Forms rewards a lot more exp than running Khri hands down no meditate required.
I tend to equate Khri to Barbarian Inner Fire abilities. Running Forms rewards a lot more exp than running Khri hands down no meditate required.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 05:52 PM CST
>>I promise that a magic user doing the amount of training you are doing would have less results, both in exp gain and number of abilities running.
Appologies for the double post. Magic users running a Cyclic for 10 min definately gains a fair bit more EXP as well. That is casting once. Even under 3.1 when EXP will cap at around 10 pulses that will still be about 3 to 5 min and take you up to 14 to 17 mindstates.
Appologies for the double post. Magic users running a Cyclic for 10 min definately gains a fair bit more EXP as well. That is casting once. Even under 3.1 when EXP will cap at around 10 pulses that will still be about 3 to 5 min and take you up to 14 to 17 mindstates.
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 05:52 PM CST
>Still I really dont expect to wiff at all with near 900 in weapon, those stats, all that khri up AND the weapon was a well balanced Small Edged.
We may be misunderstanding how the new Ambush abilities work, which is understandable considering they are under rather new mechanics.
Ric, can you answer any of these questions?
1) What role, if any, does weapon rank play in the contest? My guess would be that it determines hit percentage while the actual Stat contest determines success/duration.
2) Do weapon stats effect the contest? I believe there is at least some form of check based on the ambush. Slash likely checks for a minimum amount of Slice damage, Stun likely checks impact damage and penalizes the check if too low (sword hilt-smash), etc.
3) How much swing does Debilitation rank affect the Stat contest? I am not looking for exact numbers, more a general understanding of how much impact this skill has on the contest. For example can a large skill gap render the contest impossible for the attacker, even if the attacker has a massive stat advantage in the contest?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
We may be misunderstanding how the new Ambush abilities work, which is understandable considering they are under rather new mechanics.
Ric, can you answer any of these questions?
1) What role, if any, does weapon rank play in the contest? My guess would be that it determines hit percentage while the actual Stat contest determines success/duration.
2) Do weapon stats effect the contest? I believe there is at least some form of check based on the ambush. Slash likely checks for a minimum amount of Slice damage, Stun likely checks impact damage and penalizes the check if too low (sword hilt-smash), etc.
3) How much swing does Debilitation rank affect the Stat contest? I am not looking for exact numbers, more a general understanding of how much impact this skill has on the contest. For example can a large skill gap render the contest impossible for the attacker, even if the attacker has a massive stat advantage in the contest?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 06:04 PM CST
>>The perk I was referring to was the idea of a thief having enough grandfather ranks to no longer benefit from kneeling at all. One of the reasons I planned on the sitting bonus was so that players exactly in your range would still have a way to start more of the khri they were used to on day one, and to give a guild that will always be tertiary in the skillset a way to beef up their usage by doing something that may not always be beneficial.
This to me reads that Meditating gives me a chance to use a Khri that I would not be able to if I am just below where I should be able to use it. It also means to me that I can get more potency if I am not at cap already. Once at cap all I get with Meditate is duration incease not potency correct?
>>Not really, since I suspect it was done without any use of khri meditate.
So the question is what would Meditate do for a 173rd thief in relation to more EXP? I am already at cap for potency.
This to me reads that Meditating gives me a chance to use a Khri that I would not be able to if I am just below where I should be able to use it. It also means to me that I can get more potency if I am not at cap already. Once at cap all I get with Meditate is duration incease not potency correct?
>>Not really, since I suspect it was done without any use of khri meditate.
So the question is what would Meditate do for a 173rd thief in relation to more EXP? I am already at cap for potency.
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 06:15 PM CST
>Not really, since I suspect it was done without any use of khri meditate. So, for the investment of 1 or 2 commands, and maybe 10 seconds of RT you are learning (though not quickly locking) the skills you need.
Could you repeat the above test using Meditate?
>This to me reads that Meditating gives me a chance to use a Khri that I would not be able to if I am just below where I should be able to use it. It also means to me that I can get more potency if I am not at cap already. Once at cap all I get with Meditate is duration incease not potency correct?
Meditate boosts the next EXP pulse, so you could periodically spend 10 seconds to gain a boost for your current active khri, this means that you can train Supernaturals faster if you focus on them. Unfortunately it means its much more difficult to train them in combat.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Could you repeat the above test using Meditate?
>This to me reads that Meditating gives me a chance to use a Khri that I would not be able to if I am just below where I should be able to use it. It also means to me that I can get more potency if I am not at cap already. Once at cap all I get with Meditate is duration incease not potency correct?
Meditate boosts the next EXP pulse, so you could periodically spend 10 seconds to gain a boost for your current active khri, this means that you can train Supernaturals faster if you focus on them. Unfortunately it means its much more difficult to train them in combat.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DR-RICINUS
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 06:32 PM CST
>>Magic users running a Cyclic for 10 min definately gains a fair bit more EXP as well. That is casting once. Even under 3.1 when EXP will cap at around 10 pulses that will still be about 3 to 5 min and take you up to 14 to 17 mindstates.
I stand corrected. Yeah, looks like running a cyclic does indeed teach insanely better than the last time I ran a cyclic in Dev or Test. At least for those first 5 minutes. Oh well, they're still apples and oranges.
>>1) What role, if any, does weapon rank play in the contest?
Very little. Usually it's just backstab, sometimes a weapon skill is blended in such as light thrown for dirt related ambushes.
>>2) Do weapon stats effect the contest? I believe there is at least some form of check based on the ambush.
For the ambushes that cause a little damage, the stats factor in there, but for the most part, no. Weapon weight vs strength is sometimes checked, and some weapons aren't sharp enough for slash.
>>3) How much swing does Debilitation rank affect the Stat contest?
Well, it's a score derived by your ranks in Debilitation blended with Inner Magic factored by the difficulty range of the ability. That score is your potency, which can have a pretty significant impact on who wins the SvS contest and by how much.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
I stand corrected. Yeah, looks like running a cyclic does indeed teach insanely better than the last time I ran a cyclic in Dev or Test. At least for those first 5 minutes. Oh well, they're still apples and oranges.
>>1) What role, if any, does weapon rank play in the contest?
Very little. Usually it's just backstab, sometimes a weapon skill is blended in such as light thrown for dirt related ambushes.
>>2) Do weapon stats effect the contest? I believe there is at least some form of check based on the ambush.
For the ambushes that cause a little damage, the stats factor in there, but for the most part, no. Weapon weight vs strength is sometimes checked, and some weapons aren't sharp enough for slash.
>>3) How much swing does Debilitation rank affect the Stat contest?
Well, it's a score derived by your ranks in Debilitation blended with Inner Magic factored by the difficulty range of the ability. That score is your potency, which can have a pretty significant impact on who wins the SvS contest and by how much.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 06:34 PM CST
You are under the influence of the Darken meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Dampen meditation, which should last around 38 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 37 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Sagacity meditation, which should last around 6 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Liberation meditation, which should last around 6 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Serenity meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Guile meditation, which should last around 8 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Sensing meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Shadowstep meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Hasten meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You feel prescient of your surroundings, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You can sense your augmented cunning, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You feel at home skulking in shadow, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
>khri meditate
You focus your mind back to the methods you use to overcome physical limitations.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
R>exp
Circle: 173
Showing all skills with field experience.
Inner Magic: 862 03% considering (6/34) Augmentation: 750 03% thoughtful (4/34)
Utility: 538 02% dabbling (1/34)
The above was before the pulse.
Once it pulsed with Meditate:
Inner Magic: 862 03% attentive (10/34) Augmentation: 750 03% thinking (5/34)
Utility: 538 02% thinking (5/34)
That is a MESS of Khri up. An absolute pile. The pulse got 4 ticks of Inner Magic, 1 tick of Augmentation and 4 ticks of Utility with all those Khri up AND meditate. I still think its not enough EXP per pulse per Khri.
You are under the influence of the Dampen meditation, which should last around 38 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 37 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Sagacity meditation, which should last around 6 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Liberation meditation, which should last around 6 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Serenity meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Guile meditation, which should last around 8 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Sensing meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Shadowstep meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Hasten meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You feel prescient of your surroundings, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You can sense your augmented cunning, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
You feel at home skulking in shadow, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
>khri meditate
You focus your mind back to the methods you use to overcome physical limitations.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
R>exp
Circle: 173
Showing all skills with field experience.
Inner Magic: 862 03% considering (6/34) Augmentation: 750 03% thoughtful (4/34)
Utility: 538 02% dabbling (1/34)
The above was before the pulse.
Once it pulsed with Meditate:
Inner Magic: 862 03% attentive (10/34) Augmentation: 750 03% thinking (5/34)
Utility: 538 02% thinking (5/34)
That is a MESS of Khri up. An absolute pile. The pulse got 4 ticks of Inner Magic, 1 tick of Augmentation and 4 ticks of Utility with all those Khri up AND meditate. I still think its not enough EXP per pulse per Khri.
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 06:44 PM CST
Thanks for taking the time to explain that Ricinus. Some comments...
>I stand corrected. Yeah, looks like running a cyclic does indeed teach insanely better than the last time I ran a cyclic in Dev or Test. At least for those first 5 minutes. Oh well, they're still apples and oranges.
I think there is certainly a problem with Cyclic exp rewards right now. With my 750 ranks of Utility I nearly locked the skill with a capped cast of RoC. I wouldnt expect this to continue, however.
>Well, it's a score derived by your ranks in Debilitation blended with Inner Magic factored by the difficulty range of the ability. That score is your potency, which can have a pretty significant impact on who wins the SvS contest and by how much.
Hmm, lots of factors in that contest. Though to me it sounds like Debilitation ranks can really make or break your success rate with ambushes. It would be interesting to see TigerClaw's success rate with more ranks of Debilitation. I would hope that with ~800 ranks of Debilitation he would have close to a 95% success rate on Assassins.
You mentioned ability difficulty, can we assume that the higher level abilities tend to be more difficult then the lower ones? If that's not the case, can we get a list of least to most difficult?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
>I stand corrected. Yeah, looks like running a cyclic does indeed teach insanely better than the last time I ran a cyclic in Dev or Test. At least for those first 5 minutes. Oh well, they're still apples and oranges.
I think there is certainly a problem with Cyclic exp rewards right now. With my 750 ranks of Utility I nearly locked the skill with a capped cast of RoC. I wouldnt expect this to continue, however.
>Well, it's a score derived by your ranks in Debilitation blended with Inner Magic factored by the difficulty range of the ability. That score is your potency, which can have a pretty significant impact on who wins the SvS contest and by how much.
Hmm, lots of factors in that contest. Though to me it sounds like Debilitation ranks can really make or break your success rate with ambushes. It would be interesting to see TigerClaw's success rate with more ranks of Debilitation. I would hope that with ~800 ranks of Debilitation he would have close to a 95% success rate on Assassins.
You mentioned ability difficulty, can we assume that the higher level abilities tend to be more difficult then the lower ones? If that's not the case, can we get a list of least to most difficult?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DR-RICINUS
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 06:51 PM CST
>>You mentioned ability difficulty, can we assume that the higher level abilities tend to be more difficult then the lower ones? If that's not the case, can we get a list of least to most difficult?
Can't recall the order they are given, but here's the difficulty progression.
Choke, Stun, Slash, Screen, Clout, Ignite
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Can't recall the order they are given, but here's the difficulty progression.
Choke, Stun, Slash, Screen, Clout, Ignite
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 06:53 PM CST
>That is a MESS of Khri up. An absolute pile. The pulse got 4 ticks of Inner Magic, 1 tick of Augmentation and 4 ticks of Utility with all those Khri up AND meditate. I still think its not enough EXP per pulse per Khri.
Hmm, 4 mindstates of Util and IM is pretty good IMO. I find the single tick of Aug is surprisingly low, but looking at what you are running it makes a bit of sense.
Assuming Tier is based on the the number of Requirements (which may be incorrect) Tiger is running:
4 Augmentation abilities:
Darken T1 Aug
Steady T3 Aug
Strike T2 Aug
Elusion T4 Aug
1 Debil Ability:
Guile T3 Debil
7 Utility abilities:
Sensing T3 Util
Shadowstep T3 Util
Hasten T1 Util
Dampen T2 Util
Sagacity T4 Util
Liberation T4 Util
Serenity T3 Util
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Hmm, 4 mindstates of Util and IM is pretty good IMO. I find the single tick of Aug is surprisingly low, but looking at what you are running it makes a bit of sense.
Assuming Tier is based on the the number of Requirements (which may be incorrect) Tiger is running:
4 Augmentation abilities:
Darken T1 Aug
Steady T3 Aug
Strike T2 Aug
Elusion T4 Aug
1 Debil Ability:
Guile T3 Debil
7 Utility abilities:
Sensing T3 Util
Shadowstep T3 Util
Hasten T1 Util
Dampen T2 Util
Sagacity T4 Util
Liberation T4 Util
Serenity T3 Util
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 07:01 PM CST
>>Hmm, 4 mindstates of Util and IM is pretty good IMO. I find the single tick of Aug is surprisingly low, but looking at what you are running it makes a bit of sense.
Two issues whith that:
One - that is a total of 12 Khri up for that small bit of exp bump. As a MM with 1400 in magic I cast ONE spell at cap one of the higher end ones and can get 2 to 4 ticks of exp from the ONE spell.
Two - I also dont tap out of Mana in that one cast as a mage. I was tapped out of concentration to get that scrap of EXP and have to sit for 5 minutes to wait for Concentration to recharge by which point I'll be back to 1 or 2/34 in Aug/Utility.
Two issues whith that:
One - that is a total of 12 Khri up for that small bit of exp bump. As a MM with 1400 in magic I cast ONE spell at cap one of the higher end ones and can get 2 to 4 ticks of exp from the ONE spell.
Two - I also dont tap out of Mana in that one cast as a mage. I was tapped out of concentration to get that scrap of EXP and have to sit for 5 minutes to wait for Concentration to recharge by which point I'll be back to 1 or 2/34 in Aug/Utility.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 07:02 PM CST
>>I still think its not enough EXP per pulse per Khri.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pm4fQRl72k
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pm4fQRl72k
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 07:04 PM CST
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pm4fQRl72k
LOL good song. Fair enough.
Facts still remain at 173rd I have the skill/stats to get SOME benefit for it also both Barbarian Abilities and Mages casting spells get far more EXP per their tick than I seem to be with Khri.
LOL good song. Fair enough.
Facts still remain at 173rd I have the skill/stats to get SOME benefit for it also both Barbarian Abilities and Mages casting spells get far more EXP per their tick than I seem to be with Khri.
LHALLFIN
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 08:40 PM CST
DR-KODIUS
Re: Some Observations
02/06/2014 11:01 PM CST
>>Running Forms rewards a lot more exp than running Khri hands down no meditate required.
Are you talking about 3.1 Forms? They no longer award experience for the duration of the ability.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Are you talking about 3.1 Forms? They no longer award experience for the duration of the ability.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
LHALLFIN
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 01:02 AM CST
>Are you talking about 3.1 Forms? They no longer award experience for the duration of the ability.
Do 3.1 forms take 30 minutes of non stop 10 second RTs while kneeling or sitting to lock barb's supernats?
If so then yes, if not then no.
Cuz, that's what we got. 30 minutes of kneeling and spamming the same command with a 10 second RT. 1800 seconds in RT in an extremely vulnerable position, unable to do anything else besides maybe listen to a class.
If you go the non kneeling spamming 10 second RT route its seriously 2-3 hours of non stop running as many khri as you can manage.
I really don't feel like I'm, or anyone else, is asking for "it all".
I'm trying to ask for the exp gained to be reasonable to the amount of effort, commands and RT put in.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 02:18 AM CST
>>I really don't feel like I'm, or anyone else, is asking for "it all".
Someone posted about getting 4 mindstates in 2 skills in 10 seconds, and said it wasn't enough, so I responded with some levity. Get over it.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Someone posted about getting 4 mindstates in 2 skills in 10 seconds, and said it wasn't enough, so I responded with some levity. Get over it.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
ORBITAL303
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 02:21 AM CST
Ricinus, I am dissapoint. You did not respond with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H-Y7MAASkg
- Starlear -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H-Y7MAASkg
- Starlear -
JARAGONA
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:57 AM CST
I am finding "testing" to be very confusing. I'm reading a bunch of feedback that's saying this isn't working/needs to be tweaked/isn't user-friendly from players and GMs responding as if it's not test and basically a carved in stone system. Too much of it sounds tedious and chore-like. Also, there are a lot of walls being thrown up and constructive discussion seems to be fizzling. A lot of GM hours AND player hours are being invested to make this work, and perhaps a different approach is needed for ironing things out. I get it. You keep pounding away at something for hours on end and frustration builds and can put you on edge, making you defensive, especially when it feels like no one appreciates what you're doing (both the coding and sharing information from GMs and the hours spent testing and relaying feedback by players). But it seems like maybe an in-game discussion needs to take place. Also, it appears some GMs are backing each other up on the forums, which is cool and all, but it seems to me it would also be beneficial for the company's interests for GMs to back up their customers, as well, especially if you are the advocate for a specific guild.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
DEFOL
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 08:09 AM CST
<< Someone posted about getting 4 mindstates in 2 skills in 10 seconds, and said it wasn't enough, so I responded with some levity. Get over it.
Yes, but you're forgetting about the context. This type of training can't be sustainable with the amount of khri he was running. At this rate you're looking to drain all your concentration in a matter of minutes which only gets you what, those 4 mindstates tripled at best until you run into a complete stop.
Also when we compare us to mages, why are people forgetting that since the beginning of time in dragonrealms, the tertiary skills have locked much faster than primaries. I don't know the exact reasons for this but the discrepancies are there and everyone knows it.
Yes, but you're forgetting about the context. This type of training can't be sustainable with the amount of khri he was running. At this rate you're looking to drain all your concentration in a matter of minutes which only gets you what, those 4 mindstates tripled at best until you run into a complete stop.
Also when we compare us to mages, why are people forgetting that since the beginning of time in dragonrealms, the tertiary skills have locked much faster than primaries. I don't know the exact reasons for this but the discrepancies are there and everyone knows it.
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 08:18 AM CST
>>Also when we compare us to mages, why are people forgetting that since the beginning of time in dragonrealms, the tertiary skills have locked much faster than primaries. I don't know the exact reasons for this but the discrepancies are there and everyone knows it.
Tertiary skills have smaller pools to fill than secondaries, which are smaller than primaries:
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Exp#Experience_Pools
But I'd be willing to bet that the GMs are accounting for pool size when making comments about your learning in comparison to 'mages', which is probably a short hand for magic users and not directly referencing the magic primary guilds.
Tertiary skills have smaller pools to fill than secondaries, which are smaller than primaries:
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Exp#Experience_Pools
But I'd be willing to bet that the GMs are accounting for pool size when making comments about your learning in comparison to 'mages', which is probably a short hand for magic users and not directly referencing the magic primary guilds.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 09:21 AM CST
>>Yes, but you're forgetting about the context. This type of training can't be sustainable with the amount of khri he was running. At this rate you're looking to drain all your concentration in a matter of minutes which only gets you what, those 4 mindstates tripled at best until you run into a complete stop.
As a magic tertiary with ~700s magics, running TR at enough mana in 3.1 to teach I can get at best 10-12/34 prior to tanking my attunement. In one of the best mana rooms (which you never have to search for). Or I can spend approx 10-12 minutes locking my magics the old fashioned way (solid RTs, cambrinth etc). Given the option to maintain 4/34 virtually effortlessly in combat while training everything else, AND gaining the full benefit of my buffs vs having to repetitively cast a large mana spell solely for the purpose of moving a skill (requiring cambirnth, RTs, etc), I would seize that with both hands and run away laughing at the win.
Samsaren
As a magic tertiary with ~700s magics, running TR at enough mana in 3.1 to teach I can get at best 10-12/34 prior to tanking my attunement. In one of the best mana rooms (which you never have to search for). Or I can spend approx 10-12 minutes locking my magics the old fashioned way (solid RTs, cambrinth etc). Given the option to maintain 4/34 virtually effortlessly in combat while training everything else, AND gaining the full benefit of my buffs vs having to repetitively cast a large mana spell solely for the purpose of moving a skill (requiring cambirnth, RTs, etc), I would seize that with both hands and run away laughing at the win.
Samsaren
LHALLFIN
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 09:26 AM CST
>Get over it.
We're expected to treat every staff post as having levity... yet ours are apparently hostile.
Look in the mirror.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 09:55 AM CST
>We're expected to treat every staff post as having levity... yet ours are apparently hostile.
I'm relatively sure that the post in question (GM responding with a Queen song) is 'having levity'. And pretty obviously so.
And your posts ARE overtly hostile. Like, not even subtly, you're just slamming your head in the door yelling at customer service about a liter of cola, kind of angry right now.
Do I think Khri are perfect? Eh, probably not. Do I think abusive language is going to fix it? Eh, probably not. Do I think the system probably should have been rewritten from the ground up rather than slapped into 3.0, and 3.1? Yes. Do I think my opinion matters at this point? Eh, probably not, there's been a lot of work getting it up and running as-is and I doubt anyone wants to scrap the whole thing and redo it.
If you're so frustrated it's coming out sideways, I honestly recommend picking up another guild, or another game. I'm on hiatus until 3.1 comes out, where I'll decide if I want to stick around as a thief/barb, because I've played with enough of the magic system that I just don't have much interest in it. But that's a valid choice, and a good one. I'd rather leave something I'm not going to enjoy any more, than make everyone around me miserable kvetching about what's broken.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
I'm relatively sure that the post in question (GM responding with a Queen song) is 'having levity'. And pretty obviously so.
And your posts ARE overtly hostile. Like, not even subtly, you're just slamming your head in the door yelling at customer service about a liter of cola, kind of angry right now.
Do I think Khri are perfect? Eh, probably not. Do I think abusive language is going to fix it? Eh, probably not. Do I think the system probably should have been rewritten from the ground up rather than slapped into 3.0, and 3.1? Yes. Do I think my opinion matters at this point? Eh, probably not, there's been a lot of work getting it up and running as-is and I doubt anyone wants to scrap the whole thing and redo it.
If you're so frustrated it's coming out sideways, I honestly recommend picking up another guild, or another game. I'm on hiatus until 3.1 comes out, where I'll decide if I want to stick around as a thief/barb, because I've played with enough of the magic system that I just don't have much interest in it. But that's a valid choice, and a good one. I'd rather leave something I'm not going to enjoy any more, than make everyone around me miserable kvetching about what's broken.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
DEFOL
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 10:12 AM CST
<< I would seize that with both hands and run away laughing at the win
Well, i don't know, those comments about cyclic locking in 10 minutes got me all riled up.
<< Or I can spend approx 10-12 minutes locking my magics the old fashioned way (solid RTs, cambrinth etc).
Do you mean 10-12 minutes per each skill? In that case it sounds about right.
Well, i don't know, those comments about cyclic locking in 10 minutes got me all riled up.
<< Or I can spend approx 10-12 minutes locking my magics the old fashioned way (solid RTs, cambrinth etc).
Do you mean 10-12 minutes per each skill? In that case it sounds about right.
DR-ANNWYL
Re: Some Observations ::Nudge::
02/07/2014 11:13 AM CST
Bickering with each other or staff will not get you the attention you want. Kindly knock it off.
We do understand that you may not like how things are or how they may work in the future. But recognize that even with some of the blatant hostility coming from certain posters, Staff has been and continues to take a lot of your research and suggestions into consideration when creating and tweaking systems.
Let's check the hostility, if you feel you need to participate in the discussions find a constructive way to express yourself.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 12:42 PM CST
I think this thread has been mostly constructive, though it has recently spun out of control.
>Well, i don't know, those comments about cyclic locking in 10 minutes got me all riled up.
With my Necromancer I was able to get Utility to 30/34 in Test with a capped RoC before exp died. However that's clearly not intended based on 3.1 goals with cyclic exp, and I am expecting that to be fixed before 3.1 goes live. I am chalking this one up to an error or mistake, so we shouldn't be using it as a point of contention.
>Do you mean 10-12 minutes per each skill? In that case it sounds about right.
Per skill is my experience in Test with my Necromancer.
>Yes, but you're forgetting about the context. This type of training can't be sustainable with the amount of khri he was running. At this rate you're looking to drain all your concentration in a matter of minutes which only gets you what, those 4 mindstates tripled at best until you run into a complete stop.
Maybe I am a bit odd here, but ~12 mind states in a couple of minutes is still really good. You are WAY ahead of the drain rate (and that is 90% of training in DR 3.x), even if you need to stop for a minute to recover your concentration before starting up, you should still be locked in 10-15 minutes. Once you get to high mind states, stop the heavy training and go back to keeping only what you need up. That should easily extend the time you have exp in your pool to at least a couple of hours.
Based on the current design its clear to me the GMs intend thieves to have to work at locking Supernatural skills, not allow to have thieves keep all skills mindlock with very little effort. Based on my experiences with a 1st, 40th and 90th level thieves in Test, I feel that the system is quite workable. Light use gives me enough exp to keep skills moving, if I focus my time I can lock up everything in what I felt was a decent amount of time.
Of course there is always be bias at player at play, I certainly wouldn't mind if it were easier.
~Fixed some terrible grammar mistakes... I really should not post while distracted.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
>Well, i don't know, those comments about cyclic locking in 10 minutes got me all riled up.
With my Necromancer I was able to get Utility to 30/34 in Test with a capped RoC before exp died. However that's clearly not intended based on 3.1 goals with cyclic exp, and I am expecting that to be fixed before 3.1 goes live. I am chalking this one up to an error or mistake, so we shouldn't be using it as a point of contention.
>Do you mean 10-12 minutes per each skill? In that case it sounds about right.
Per skill is my experience in Test with my Necromancer.
>Yes, but you're forgetting about the context. This type of training can't be sustainable with the amount of khri he was running. At this rate you're looking to drain all your concentration in a matter of minutes which only gets you what, those 4 mindstates tripled at best until you run into a complete stop.
Maybe I am a bit odd here, but ~12 mind states in a couple of minutes is still really good. You are WAY ahead of the drain rate (and that is 90% of training in DR 3.x), even if you need to stop for a minute to recover your concentration before starting up, you should still be locked in 10-15 minutes. Once you get to high mind states, stop the heavy training and go back to keeping only what you need up. That should easily extend the time you have exp in your pool to at least a couple of hours.
Based on the current design its clear to me the GMs intend thieves to have to work at locking Supernatural skills, not allow to have thieves keep all skills mindlock with very little effort. Based on my experiences with a 1st, 40th and 90th level thieves in Test, I feel that the system is quite workable. Light use gives me enough exp to keep skills moving, if I focus my time I can lock up everything in what I felt was a decent amount of time.
Of course there is always be bias at player at play, I certainly wouldn't mind if it were easier.
~Fixed some terrible grammar mistakes... I really should not post while distracted.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DEFOL
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 02:38 PM CST
<< Maybe I am a bit odd here, but ~12 mind states in a couple of minutes is still really good
I don't know exactly since this was not my test but i kind of have a feeling that they were referring to Inner Magic which trains at about double rate compared to everything else and if our other magic skills learned at the same rate, we wouldn't be debating over this.
But i did a similar test on my own and it took me exactly 39 minutes of sitting and chain-meditating to lock all three, so i guess it's not too bad compared to Paladins at least.
I don't know exactly since this was not my test but i kind of have a feeling that they were referring to Inner Magic which trains at about double rate compared to everything else and if our other magic skills learned at the same rate, we wouldn't be debating over this.
But i did a similar test on my own and it took me exactly 39 minutes of sitting and chain-meditating to lock all three, so i guess it's not too bad compared to Paladins at least.
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 02:57 PM CST
How does the learning look after a couple hours of normal hunting with khri up? I hardly ever focus on locking my tert skills with my characters and I'm having a hard time picturing why thieves would want to with theirs. Why not just do your regular and let the small tert pools fill in their own time?
TALBOT3
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 03:29 PM CST
Without khri meditate, it will take multiple hours using as many khri as possible with 466 concentration to lock tert magic skills in the 400s to 600s ranks. The exp gain is so small, that the even/odd rank greatly influences lock time.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 03:35 PM CST
>>But I'd be willing to bet that the GMs are accounting for pool size when making comments about your learning in comparison to 'mages', which is probably a short hand for magic users and not directly referencing the magic primary guilds.
We do have such a code function. You give it some basic parameters and it calculates how many bits should get awarded. Not everything is using this yet, but more and more do every day. It allows us a uniform way to decide how many bits someone should earn given metrics like "round time", "difficulty" and desired "time to lock". But even so, making proper use of it can be tricky :)
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
We do have such a code function. You give it some basic parameters and it calculates how many bits should get awarded. Not everything is using this yet, but more and more do every day. It allows us a uniform way to decide how many bits someone should earn given metrics like "round time", "difficulty" and desired "time to lock". But even so, making proper use of it can be tricky :)
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 04:07 PM CST
>Without khri meditate, it will take multiple hours using as many khri as possible with 466 concentration to lock tert magic skills in the 400s to 600s ranks. The exp gain is so small, that the even/odd rank greatly influences lock time.
At this point I think showing data backing this claim up would mean a lot more to the Dev team. I would suggest you show Time to Lock for Augmentation, where you use as many of the highest tier Aug abilities to can. You can break it down by 10 minute segments. Then do the same for Utility and Debilitation, though I expect Debilitation to have some very different numbers then Aug and Util just based on its contested nature.
That said having skills in the +2/34 range for an hour is just as good as locking that skill, if you ignore logout drain of course.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
At this point I think showing data backing this claim up would mean a lot more to the Dev team. I would suggest you show Time to Lock for Augmentation, where you use as many of the highest tier Aug abilities to can. You can break it down by 10 minute segments. Then do the same for Utility and Debilitation, though I expect Debilitation to have some very different numbers then Aug and Util just based on its contested nature.
That said having skills in the +2/34 range for an hour is just as good as locking that skill, if you ignore logout drain of course.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DEFOL
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 04:43 PM CST
<< At this point I think showing data backing this claim up would mean a lot more to the Dev team.
I already did a similar test. I did not break it down to 10 minute parts but instead i ran a single cycle of 26 minutes and just calculated the rest based on the results. I ended up with around 1.3h in the best case scenario but i was basically just standing around, in the real world this could easily go up to around 2h.
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Dragon%20Realms%203.1%20Test/Thieves/view/600
I already did a similar test. I did not break it down to 10 minute parts but instead i ran a single cycle of 26 minutes and just calculated the rest based on the results. I ended up with around 1.3h in the best case scenario but i was basically just standing around, in the real world this could easily go up to around 2h.
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Dragon%20Realms%203.1%20Test/Thieves/view/600
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 05:09 PM CST
Its similar, but your test has you using a mix of Aug, Utility and Debilitation Khri. In essence you are dividing your total Khri exp between three skills. This is likely the best practice if you can keep all your supernatural skills 2+/34 mind states, but I was looking for how long it took to lock a single skill using the maximum amount of like skilled abilities.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 05:56 PM CST
>>Are you talking about 3.1 Forms? They no longer award experience for the duration of the ability.
No I was reffereing to the 3.0 version. I did read in the barbarian folders that they will be treated like Cyclic spells now in the sense you cant "set it and forget it" and learn indefinately. However from folks who have tested them they still award a good bit of experience. I was talking about Exp amount per pulse, or in case of Mages per spell cast at cap.
No I was reffereing to the 3.0 version. I did read in the barbarian folders that they will be treated like Cyclic spells now in the sense you cant "set it and forget it" and learn indefinately. However from folks who have tested them they still award a good bit of experience. I was talking about Exp amount per pulse, or in case of Mages per spell cast at cap.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 06:05 PM CST
>>Maybe I am a bit odd here, but ~12 mind states in a couple of minutes is still really good.
Your leaving out a couple of things with my "test"
A - I was running 12 Khri to get that 12!! That is a massive amount of Krhi and a very "piddly" amount of exp for that much Khri.
B - My Concentration tanked in under 3 minutes and that is ALL I can get out of 12 Khri WITH Meditate up totally tapped out. That means I have to wait 5 minutes for my concentration to return so I can try that again. which means I will never get my Augmentation past 2 to 5 out of 34 no matter what I do at my ranks. Utility will be better cus i can throw more Khri at it but all that means is I may be able to get it to 10 or 12/34.
Loggrim has already stated that using Meditate doing nothing but spamming selected Khri (kneeling/lying down) you need to spend 30+ minutes to get up in 20+/34.
I have mages and I can lock any Magic school spamming spells in at least half that time and I wont be tapped. If I run a cyclic and rotate spells I can lock 2 to 4 schools of magic in addtion to Attunement, Arcana AND Primary Magic as well in about 20 minutes. A lot more bang in EXP bits per action.
All we are askign is for a review of EXP per pulse for Augmentation/Utility/Inner Magic please and copare that data to what Magic casting nets a mage and what running Forms nets a Barbarian. I play both and I know I get a lot more with both Mages casting spells and running Forms than I do running Khri.
Your leaving out a couple of things with my "test"
A - I was running 12 Khri to get that 12!! That is a massive amount of Krhi and a very "piddly" amount of exp for that much Khri.
B - My Concentration tanked in under 3 minutes and that is ALL I can get out of 12 Khri WITH Meditate up totally tapped out. That means I have to wait 5 minutes for my concentration to return so I can try that again. which means I will never get my Augmentation past 2 to 5 out of 34 no matter what I do at my ranks. Utility will be better cus i can throw more Khri at it but all that means is I may be able to get it to 10 or 12/34.
Loggrim has already stated that using Meditate doing nothing but spamming selected Khri (kneeling/lying down) you need to spend 30+ minutes to get up in 20+/34.
I have mages and I can lock any Magic school spamming spells in at least half that time and I wont be tapped. If I run a cyclic and rotate spells I can lock 2 to 4 schools of magic in addtion to Attunement, Arcana AND Primary Magic as well in about 20 minutes. A lot more bang in EXP bits per action.
All we are askign is for a review of EXP per pulse for Augmentation/Utility/Inner Magic please and copare that data to what Magic casting nets a mage and what running Forms nets a Barbarian. I play both and I know I get a lot more with both Mages casting spells and running Forms than I do running Khri.
