Previous
>>All we are askign is for a review of EXP per pulse for Augmentation/Utility/Inner Magic please and copare that data to what Magic casting nets a mage and what running Forms nets a Barbarian. I play both and I know I get a lot more with both Mages casting spells and running Forms than I do running Khri.
I'm not going to spend any time comparing exp gains between completely dissimilar systems. There's a completely new exp model up and running in Test. Feel free to let me know how it works for you, and we'll go from there. This new model gives me a bit more freedom to make changes that won't result in a drought at the high levels, or a flood at the lower, so it's considerably more tweakable.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
DR-RICINUS
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 06:29 PM CST
>>I'm not going to spend any time comparing exp gains between completely dissimilar systems.
Fair enough. I am only responding to your original response to the numbers I posted from my earlier test where you refferenced Mages casting and exp gains for mages.
I'll try and get some testing in this weekend and see what I can come up.
Fair enough. I am only responding to your original response to the numbers I posted from my earlier test where you refferenced Mages casting and exp gains for mages.
I'll try and get some testing in this weekend and see what I can come up.
MOCKERJB
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 06:37 PM CST
Also, magic learning does not function like that anymore in 3.1. Some things got better (TM), but easy mode 3.0 magic learning is gone.
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 06:39 PM CST
>I was running 12 Khri to get that 12!! That is a massive amount of Krhi and a very "piddly" amount of exp for that much Khri.
Certainly didnt leave it out, I took the khri you were running and grouped them by Skill and tier in a previous post. You were only running four Augmentation abilities, one for each tier. You only gained a single tick of Augmentation because of it. Id like to see what would happen if you were running more then 4/12 Aug abilities.
>B - My Concentration tanked in under 3 minutes and that is ALL I can get out of 12 Khri WITH Meditate up totally tapped out. That means I have to wait 5 minutes for my concentration to return so I can try that again. which means I will never get my Augmentation past 2 to 5 out of 34 no matter what I do at my ranks. Utility will be better cus i can throw more Khri at it but all that means is I may be able to get it to 10 or 12/34.
In your original post you stated it took 10 minutes to drain your concentration, now you are claiming its 3? You also mentioned you were ambushing during that time, so its not immediately clear how long you can sustain that many abilities normally. Could you run the test again and provide accurate data?
I have a 150th lvl Necromancer, and in test it takes me about 10-15 minutes to lock each casting skills not counting Cyclic exp. As an aside I have to ignore Cyclic exp due to my previous point of RoC being WAY off in Test. This 10-15 minutes to lock requires a lot of effort and mana management, Prep/Charge Cam/Invoke Cam/Cast/Repeat, so I am generally unable to do much more then that.
Thieves are clearly a different beast then MU's, so direct comparisons are going to be ineffective as a data point. However, it is my hope that if we can show Ricinus that the time to lock a single skill while we focus on it to be greater then 15ish minutes, I think we may have more luck in arguing for an exp boost.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Certainly didnt leave it out, I took the khri you were running and grouped them by Skill and tier in a previous post. You were only running four Augmentation abilities, one for each tier. You only gained a single tick of Augmentation because of it. Id like to see what would happen if you were running more then 4/12 Aug abilities.
>B - My Concentration tanked in under 3 minutes and that is ALL I can get out of 12 Khri WITH Meditate up totally tapped out. That means I have to wait 5 minutes for my concentration to return so I can try that again. which means I will never get my Augmentation past 2 to 5 out of 34 no matter what I do at my ranks. Utility will be better cus i can throw more Khri at it but all that means is I may be able to get it to 10 or 12/34.
In your original post you stated it took 10 minutes to drain your concentration, now you are claiming its 3? You also mentioned you were ambushing during that time, so its not immediately clear how long you can sustain that many abilities normally. Could you run the test again and provide accurate data?
I have a 150th lvl Necromancer, and in test it takes me about 10-15 minutes to lock each casting skills not counting Cyclic exp. As an aside I have to ignore Cyclic exp due to my previous point of RoC being WAY off in Test. This 10-15 minutes to lock requires a lot of effort and mana management, Prep/Charge Cam/Invoke Cam/Cast/Repeat, so I am generally unable to do much more then that.
Thieves are clearly a different beast then MU's, so direct comparisons are going to be ineffective as a data point. However, it is my hope that if we can show Ricinus that the time to lock a single skill while we focus on it to be greater then 15ish minutes, I think we may have more luck in arguing for an exp boost.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 06:44 PM CST
>>In your original post you stated it took 10 minutes to drain your concentration,
I did several tests. Initial tests ran 3 Khri for 10 minutes than posted results for 10 minutes exp gain.
Ricinus replied that that was not with Meditate up and so it can get better with more work. The test we are discussing currently was after that and that one I started 12 Khri waited for a pulse checked EXP posted, started Meditate waited for next Pulse checked EXP gain for that pulse with Meditate up for the 12 khri that were up. I tapped out after that single pulse with Meditate up and all the Khri came off that was just under 3 minutes from the start of the FIRST group of Khri.
I did several tests. Initial tests ran 3 Khri for 10 minutes than posted results for 10 minutes exp gain.
Ricinus replied that that was not with Meditate up and so it can get better with more work. The test we are discussing currently was after that and that one I started 12 Khri waited for a pulse checked EXP posted, started Meditate waited for next Pulse checked EXP gain for that pulse with Meditate up for the 12 khri that were up. I tapped out after that single pulse with Meditate up and all the Khri came off that was just under 3 minutes from the start of the FIRST group of Khri.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 06:46 PM CST
>>This 10-15 minutes to lock requires a lot of effort and mana management, Prep/Charge Cam/Invoke Cam/Cast/Repeat, so I am generally unable to do much more then that.
And Loggrim did nothing but spamm Khri with Meditate up Lying/kneeling to increase gains for 30 minutes and could not get exp past 10/34. All he was doing was spamming Khri nothing else certainly could not do it in combat lying/kneeling.
At least as a Mage I can spam spells while in combat gaining passive defence skills and acomplish what you said you acomplished in 15 minutes. Big difference there.
And Loggrim did nothing but spamm Khri with Meditate up Lying/kneeling to increase gains for 30 minutes and could not get exp past 10/34. All he was doing was spamming Khri nothing else certainly could not do it in combat lying/kneeling.
At least as a Mage I can spam spells while in combat gaining passive defence skills and acomplish what you said you acomplished in 15 minutes. Big difference there.
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 06:56 PM CST
>And Loggrim did nothing but spamm Khri with Meditate up Lying/kneeling to increase gains for 30 minutes and could not get exp past 10/34. All he was doing was spamming Khri nothing else certainly could not do it in combat lying/kneeling.
Yes, but he had a mix of Aug/Utility/Debilitation skills up. If I train magics for 10-15 minutes and evenly alternate between casting skill I wont lock any of them. Thus my point of focusing only on Augmentation abilities as an example.
>At least as a Mage I can spam spells while in combat gaining passive defence skills and acomplish what you said you acomplished in 15 minutes. Big difference there.
I will agree that Meditate seems to be geared more towards non-combat learning with its prone requirement.... Actually I am not certain about that part. Ricinus, is the prone a requirement for Meditate, or does it simply grant greater rewards?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Yes, but he had a mix of Aug/Utility/Debilitation skills up. If I train magics for 10-15 minutes and evenly alternate between casting skill I wont lock any of them. Thus my point of focusing only on Augmentation abilities as an example.
>At least as a Mage I can spam spells while in combat gaining passive defence skills and acomplish what you said you acomplished in 15 minutes. Big difference there.
I will agree that Meditate seems to be geared more towards non-combat learning with its prone requirement.... Actually I am not certain about that part. Ricinus, is the prone a requirement for Meditate, or does it simply grant greater rewards?
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:03 PM CST
>>Yes, but he had a mix of Aug/Utility/Debilitation skills up. If I train magics for 10-15 minutes and evenly alternate between casting skill I wont lock any of them. Thus my point of focusing only on Augmentation abilities as an example.
Sigh. I am really worn out from a 15 hr work day and just long weeks in general past severa. If i find some extra energy this weekend I'll log my Mage who has magics raning from 1k to 1400+ ranks and spam/rotate 3 schools of spells for roughly 15 minutes while running 1 cyclic in TEST. Cyclics have already been 'tweaked" in test as far as I have seen. I am 100% certain the exp gains will be substantialy different from what my high level thief is going to see from same time/effort investment.
Sigh. I am really worn out from a 15 hr work day and just long weeks in general past severa. If i find some extra energy this weekend I'll log my Mage who has magics raning from 1k to 1400+ ranks and spam/rotate 3 schools of spells for roughly 15 minutes while running 1 cyclic in TEST. Cyclics have already been 'tweaked" in test as far as I have seen. I am 100% certain the exp gains will be substantialy different from what my high level thief is going to see from same time/effort investment.
TALBOT3
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:03 PM CST
Did the test, with 6 khri: shadowstep dampen darken elusion strike hasten. It took between 90 and 100 minutes to lock all magic(except debil). Which isnt too bad. In actually hunting, I will be switching between 5 and 6 khri to allow concentration to regen for ambushing which reduce learning somewhat.
stats in test:
Strength : 70 Reflex : 85
Agility : 80 Charisma : 30
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 70
Intelligence : 75 Stamina : 70
Concentration : 482 Max : 482
results:
[18:14] Inner Magic - 637.06 - 0/34
[18:14] Utility - 398.08- 0/34
[18:14] Augmentation - 525.07 - 0/34
[18:14] Concentration: 100
[18:24] Inner Magic - 637.04 - 8/34
[18:24] Utility - 398.08- 5/34
[18:24] Augmentation - 525.06 - 5/34
[18:24] Concentration: 86
[18:34] Inner Magic - 637.05 - 16/34
[18:34] Utility - 398.1- 10/34
[18:34] Augmentation - 525.07 - 9/34
[18:34] Concentration: 85
[18:44] Inner Magic - 637.06 - 23/34
[18:44] Utility - 398.12- 14/34
[18:44] Augmentation - 525.08 - 13/34
[18:44] Concentration: 80
[18:54] Inner Magic - 637.07 - 31/34
[18:54] Utility - 398.14- 19/34
[18:54] Augmentation - 525.09 - 17/34
[18:54] Concentration: 77
[19:04] Inner Magic - 637.08 - 34/34
[19:04] Utility - 398.15- 21/34
[19:04] Augmentation - 525.1 - 20/34
[19:04] Concentration: 79
[19:14] Inner Magic - 637.09 - 34/34
[19:14] Utility - 398.17- 24/34
[19:14] Augmentation - 525.11 - 23/34
[19:14] Concentration: 66
[19:24] Inner Magic - 637.1 - 34/34
[19:24] Utility - 398.19- 26/34
[19:24] Augmentation - 525.13 - 26/34
[19:24] Concentration: 65
[19:34] Inner Magic - 637.11 - 34/34
[19:34] Utility - 398.21- 29/34
[19:34] Augmentation - 525.14 - 29/34
[19:34] Concentration: 65
[19:44] Inner Magic - 637.11 - 34/34
[19:44] Utility - 398.23- 31/34
[19:44] Augmentation - 525.15 - 32/34
[19:44] Concentration: 58
[19:55] Inner Magic - 637.13 - 33/34
[19:55] Utility - 398.24- 34/34
[19:55] Augmentation - 525.16 - 33/34
[19:55] Concentration: 60
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:07 PM CST
>>It took between 90 and 100 minutes to lock all magic
This is doing nothing but Khri. I dont see how ANY skill taking near 2 hours to lock doing nothing but sppaming them is ok.
>>In actually hunting, I will be switching between 5 and 6 khri to allow concentration to regen for ambushing which reduce learning somewhat.
What happens when you add to that weapon RT times, bows, Xbows, etc. That timer up above will go to what? 2 hrs? 3 hrs? possibly never as you will likely drain off before you gain enough to progress significantly.
This is doing nothing but Khri. I dont see how ANY skill taking near 2 hours to lock doing nothing but sppaming them is ok.
>>In actually hunting, I will be switching between 5 and 6 khri to allow concentration to regen for ambushing which reduce learning somewhat.
What happens when you add to that weapon RT times, bows, Xbows, etc. That timer up above will go to what? 2 hrs? 3 hrs? possibly never as you will likely drain off before you gain enough to progress significantly.
TALBOT3
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:13 PM CST
my test was without using khri mediate. The only RT I generated was from khri startup.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:15 PM CST
>>Ricinus, is the prone a requirement for Meditate, or does it simply grant greater rewards?
Meditate has a minor benefit when not standing. Specifically being prone doesn't reward any different than kneeling or sitting.
>>Did the test, with 6 khri...
Interesting side note: I think I changed the exp model about halfway through your test.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Meditate has a minor benefit when not standing. Specifically being prone doesn't reward any different than kneeling or sitting.
>>Did the test, with 6 khri...
Interesting side note: I think I changed the exp model about halfway through your test.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:19 PM CST
>>my test was without using khri mediate. The only RT I generated was from khri startup.
Right. Meditate gave from what I saw about a 25% boost at the expense of 10 RT only for a SINGLE pulse. So you'd have to spam Meditate constantly and rotate Krhi constantly.
90 to 120 mins take away a quarter your stil looking at around 67.5 to 90 minutes with meditate to get it to lock doing nothing but hammering those skills. Any skill focus trained in 3.0 and quite likely 3.1 (only tested some stuff personally) takes on average 10 to 20 mins to lock. Only exception to tha rule is Forging which may take up to 30 minutes due to long RT times uising standard weapons and doing hard work orders.
This is FOCUS trained not doing x, y, z, and the rest of the alphabet while thrwing in an action to keep the desired skil moving which is the whole point here.
I dont want to dedicate several hours a day of my life to force train a few skills before I can get to the rest of the game so I can continue to progress in my guild.
Right. Meditate gave from what I saw about a 25% boost at the expense of 10 RT only for a SINGLE pulse. So you'd have to spam Meditate constantly and rotate Krhi constantly.
90 to 120 mins take away a quarter your stil looking at around 67.5 to 90 minutes with meditate to get it to lock doing nothing but hammering those skills. Any skill focus trained in 3.0 and quite likely 3.1 (only tested some stuff personally) takes on average 10 to 20 mins to lock. Only exception to tha rule is Forging which may take up to 30 minutes due to long RT times uising standard weapons and doing hard work orders.
This is FOCUS trained not doing x, y, z, and the rest of the alphabet while thrwing in an action to keep the desired skil moving which is the whole point here.
I dont want to dedicate several hours a day of my life to force train a few skills before I can get to the rest of the game so I can continue to progress in my guild.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:23 PM CST
>>Interesting side note: I think I changed the exp model about halfway through your test.
That is encouraging thank you.
Also thank you for the test Talbot3 quite a bit of time invested.
That is encouraging thank you.
Also thank you for the test Talbot3 quite a bit of time invested.
TALBOT3
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:24 PM CST
I noticed it began to slow down about half way through the test. At the start util and aug was gaining 4-5 states every 10 minutes, but in the middle it went down to 2-3 every 10 minutes. Inner magic was already locked by that point so I didnt notice anything there.
MOCKERJB
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:29 PM CST
<<I'll log my Mage who has magics raning from 1k to 1400+ ranks and spam/rotate 3 schools of spells for roughly 15 minutes while running 1 cyclic in TEST.>>
As a mage, I'd love to see that. And I'd also like to know what the spell/guild is. It is not a typical experience for magics at those ranks. I assume it's a war mage.
As a mage, I'd love to see that. And I'd also like to know what the spell/guild is. It is not a typical experience for magics at those ranks. I assume it's a war mage.
TALBOT3
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 07:51 PM CST
>Were you using Meditate at all, or just the khri by themselves? How many times did you have to refresh an ability once it dropped? With the test >being 90 minutes long Id guess to or three times at those ranks?
No meditate at all. I started the khri and then logged the learning rates every 10 minutes. I refreshed each about 3 times, you can see when the dropped and restarted by the concentration percent I included. Running those 6 khri my concentration is pretty my stable and will only drop upon reactivation.
No meditate at all. I started the khri and then logged the learning rates every 10 minutes. I refreshed each about 3 times, you can see when the dropped and restarted by the concentration percent I included. Running those 6 khri my concentration is pretty my stable and will only drop upon reactivation.
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 08:09 PM CST
>No meditate at all. I started the khri and then logged the learning rates every 10 minutes. I refreshed each about 3 times, you can see when the dropped and restarted by the concentration percent I included. Running those 6 khri my concentration is pretty my stable and will only drop upon reactivation.
Whoops, deleted my post because I saw you answered my question before I even asked it! I agree with you, that sounds about right for the amount of effort put in, we are talking about 10-20 seconds of refresh RT every 30ish minutes so its pretty much free Exp, especially if you can keep that going without dropping your concentration down to 0.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Whoops, deleted my post because I saw you answered my question before I even asked it! I agree with you, that sounds about right for the amount of effort put in, we are talking about 10-20 seconds of refresh RT every 30ish minutes so its pretty much free Exp, especially if you can keep that going without dropping your concentration down to 0.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
ALGOTHI
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 08:15 PM CST
>Interesting side note: I think I changed the exp model about halfway through your test.
I ran the a test with a lvl 1 thief last night and again about 30 minutes ago and notice an increase in time to lock as well.
For reference:
Last night:
Human, 10 in all stats
0 Aug
0 IM
Focus: delayed start duration 12 minutes
Using Khri Meditate every time my concentration dropped from Focus.
Time to lock, both Aug and IM: 14 minutes.
Today:
Human, 15 disc, 15 Agility, 15 reflex, 10 everything else.
8 Aug (hit 9 ranks before test ended.)
8 IM (hit 9 ranks before test ended.)
Focus: Delayed start duration 13 minutes
Using Khri Meditate every time my concentration dropped from Focus.
Time to lock, both Aug and IM: 19 minutes.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I ran the a test with a lvl 1 thief last night and again about 30 minutes ago and notice an increase in time to lock as well.
For reference:
Last night:
Human, 10 in all stats
0 Aug
0 IM
Focus: delayed start duration 12 minutes
Using Khri Meditate every time my concentration dropped from Focus.
Time to lock, both Aug and IM: 14 minutes.
Today:
Human, 15 disc, 15 Agility, 15 reflex, 10 everything else.
8 Aug (hit 9 ranks before test ended.)
8 IM (hit 9 ranks before test ended.)
Focus: Delayed start duration 13 minutes
Using Khri Meditate every time my concentration dropped from Focus.
Time to lock, both Aug and IM: 19 minutes.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 08:54 PM CST
Ok running the following 6 Augmentation Khri no meditate up:
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Flight meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 37 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Safe meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Avoidance meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
Strength : 90 Reflex : 100 +
Agility : 100 Charisma : 50
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 100
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 100
I used a Digital Stopwatch to keep track of time.
5 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 06% perusing (2/34)
Augmentation: 750 05% perusing (2/34)
10 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 06% thoughtful (4/34)
Augmentation: 750 06% thoughtful (4/34)
15 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 07% thoughtful (4/34)
Augmentation: 750 06% thoughtful (4/34)
20 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 07% considering (6/34)
Augmentation: 750 07% considering (6/34)
>khri check
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 19 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Flight meditation, which should last around 18 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 16 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 18 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Safe meditation, which should last around 18 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Avoidance meditation, which should last around 18 roisaen.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
At this point my Concentration is howering around 65% as it slowly tanks. I have 505 max concentration.
25 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 07% pondering (7/34)
Augmentation: 750 07% pondering (7/34)
30 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 08% ruminating (8/34)
Augmentation: 750 08% ruminating (8/34)
It should be noted at this point my concentration is around 57% I anticipate tapping out fully about 70 minues out doing these six Khri.
These six khri at 8 mindstates per 30 minutes gets me to Mind Locked roughly 2 hours and 10 minutes latter IF my Concentration did not tap out which it will roughly 1 hour and 15 minutes in, roughly 5 to 8 minutes to refill once tapped looking at around a total of 2 hours and 20 minutes give or take a few to lock.
Conclusion? Well different skill levels/stats seem to have different results obviously. High level stuff seems to be hurting on exp benefits even with BEEFY stats.
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Flight meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 37 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Safe meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Avoidance meditation, which should last around 39 roisaen.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
Strength : 90 Reflex : 100 +
Agility : 100 Charisma : 50
Discipline : 100 Wisdom : 100
Intelligence : 70 Stamina : 100
I used a Digital Stopwatch to keep track of time.
5 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 06% perusing (2/34)
Augmentation: 750 05% perusing (2/34)
10 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 06% thoughtful (4/34)
Augmentation: 750 06% thoughtful (4/34)
15 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 07% thoughtful (4/34)
Augmentation: 750 06% thoughtful (4/34)
20 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 07% considering (6/34)
Augmentation: 750 07% considering (6/34)
>khri check
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 19 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Flight meditation, which should last around 18 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 16 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 18 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Safe meditation, which should last around 18 roisaen.
You are under the influence of the Avoidance meditation, which should last around 18 roisaen.
You feel able to spar with any foe, which will vanish when any pillar supporting it does.
At this point my Concentration is howering around 65% as it slowly tanks. I have 505 max concentration.
25 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 07% pondering (7/34)
Augmentation: 750 07% pondering (7/34)
30 Minutes in:
Inner Magic: 862 08% ruminating (8/34)
Augmentation: 750 08% ruminating (8/34)
It should be noted at this point my concentration is around 57% I anticipate tapping out fully about 70 minues out doing these six Khri.
These six khri at 8 mindstates per 30 minutes gets me to Mind Locked roughly 2 hours and 10 minutes latter IF my Concentration did not tap out which it will roughly 1 hour and 15 minutes in, roughly 5 to 8 minutes to refill once tapped looking at around a total of 2 hours and 20 minutes give or take a few to lock.
Conclusion? Well different skill levels/stats seem to have different results obviously. High level stuff seems to be hurting on exp benefits even with BEEFY stats.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 09:06 PM CST
>>I agree with you, that sounds about right for the amount of effort put in, we are talking about 10-20 seconds of refresh RT every 30ish minutes so its pretty much free Exp
I beg to differ. Its exp needed to progress there are hard requirements per circle for 3 of these 4 skills. This is also the method given to us to train these skills. It is not "free" anything it is just exp. If you are going to view it that way than Cyclic Exp and Forms exp is also "free" exp.
I beg to differ. Its exp needed to progress there are hard requirements per circle for 3 of these 4 skills. This is also the method given to us to train these skills. It is not "free" anything it is just exp. If you are going to view it that way than Cyclic Exp and Forms exp is also "free" exp.
GORTEOUS
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 09:12 PM CST
Loggrim is one of the few people giving consistent feedback on changes. He's went out of his way to make sure that his posts didn't offend.If what he says is true, it seems pretty ridiculous to continue arguing that it's not out of line. If you're going to dispute his results - do it with your own data.
I'm pretty sure he's spent more time on test than any other Thief.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I'm pretty sure he's spent more time on test than any other Thief.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 09:16 PM CST
>>I'm pretty sure he's spent more time on test than any other Thief.
Agreed I've been reading his Loggs on the forums for weeks now.
Agreed I've been reading his Loggs on the forums for weeks now.
LISA-PONS
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 09:46 PM CST
<<Loggrim is one of the few people giving consistent feedback on changes. He's went out of his way to make sure that his posts didn't offend.If what he says is true, it seems pretty ridiculous to continue arguing that it's not out of line. If you're going to dispute his results - do it with your own data.
I'm pretty sure he's spent more time on test than any other Thief.>>
Agree. 100%
I'm pretty sure he's spent more time on test than any other Thief.>>
Agree. 100%
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Some Observations
02/07/2014 11:04 PM CST
<<<Loggrim is one of the few people giving consistent feedback on changes. I'm pretty sure he's spent more time on test than any other Thief.>>
So you saying loggrim has been logged in test Gort?
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
So you saying loggrim has been logged in test Gort?
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
LHALLFIN
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 01:28 AM CST
>So you saying loggrim has been logged in test Gort?
Loggrim has logged into test to log logs of test data to log on the wiki and test forums. LOG!!! (I can do Super Troopers jokes too).
In test I'm seeing a nice increase from exp with KHRI MEDITATE from the adjustments to the new model. Maybe something like 30% more exp. Still wish just using the khri without meditate could get a bit of a bump. Maybe there was one but I'm just not seeing it without meditate?
Either way, thanks for working on those adjustments, I think it feels more in line with cost vs gain, hopefully I'm not completely wrong.
DEFOL
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 01:52 AM CST
<< Its similar, but your test has you using a mix of Aug, Utility and Debilitation Khri.
I did not use any debilitation Khri, the only debilitating i did was using ambushes -- pretty much just spamming stun and clout randomly.
You are under the influence of the Hasten meditation, which should last around 35 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Sagacity meditation, which should last around 2 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 25 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Focus meditation, which should last around 36 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Shadowstep meditation, which should last around 25 roisaen. - Util
I did not use any debilitation Khri, the only debilitating i did was using ambushes -- pretty much just spamming stun and clout randomly.
You are under the influence of the Hasten meditation, which should last around 35 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Sagacity meditation, which should last around 2 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Strike meditation, which should last around 34 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 25 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Focus meditation, which should last around 36 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Shadowstep meditation, which should last around 25 roisaen. - Util
TALBOT3
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 09:53 AM CST
>Interesting side note: I think I changed the exp model about halfway through your test.
I retest with the new exp model. Using the same khri, magic skills locked in 142 minutes. The new exp model has reduced the passive exp. I will redo the test using meditate and post in a few hours.
Results from new test:
[08:16] Starting Test - no Khri Meditate
[08:16] Starting Test - using Khri Meditate
[08:16] Concentration: 100%
[08:16] use shadowstep dampen darken elusion strike hasten1
[08:16] ***************************
[08:16] *0 minites****
[08:16] ***************************
[08:16] Inner Magic - 637.13 - 0/34
[08:16] Utility - 398.25- 0/34
[08:16] Augmentation - 525.16 - 0/34
[08:16] Concentration: 100%
[08:16] ***************************
[08:26] ***************************
[08:26] *9.8 minites****
[08:26] ***************************
[08:26] Inner Magic - 637.27 - 3/34
[08:26] Utility - 398.49- 3/34
[08:26] Augmentation - 525.34 - 3/34
[08:26] Concentration: 86%
[08:26] ***************************
[08:36] ***************************
[08:36] *19.8 minites****
[08:36] ***************************
[08:36] Inner Magic - 637.28 - 6/34
[08:36] Utility - 398.51- 5/34
[08:36] Augmentation - 525.35 - 6/34
[08:36] Concentration: 85%
[08:36] ***************************
[08:46] ***************************
[08:46] *29.9 minites****
[08:46] ***************************
[08:46] Inner Magic - 637.29 - 9/34
[08:46] Utility - 398.53- 8/34
[08:46] Augmentation - 525.37 - 9/34
[08:46] Concentration: 79%
[08:46] ***************************
[08:56] ***************************
[08:56] *40 minites****
[08:56] ***************************
[08:56] Inner Magic - 637.3 - 12/34
[08:56] Utility - 398.55- 10/34
[08:56] Augmentation - 525.38 - 12/34
[08:56] Concentration: 76%
[08:56] ***************************
[09:08] ***************************
[09:08] *51.5 minites****
[09:08] ***************************
[09:08] Inner Magic - 637.31 - 15/34
[09:08] Utility - 398.56- 13/34
[09:08] Augmentation - 525.39 - 15/34
[09:08] Concentration: 83%
[09:08] ***************************
[09:18] ***************************
[09:18] *61.6 minites****
[09:18] ***************************
[09:18] Inner Magic - 637.32 - 18/34
[09:18] Utility - 398.59- 15/34
[09:18] Augmentation - 525.4 - 18/34
[09:18] Concentration: 70%
[09:18] ***************************
[09:28] ***************************
[09:28] *71.8 minites****
[09:28] ***************************
[09:28] Inner Magic - 637.33 - 21/34
[09:28] Utility - 398.61- 17/34
[09:28] Augmentation - 525.41 - 21/34
[09:28] Concentration: 71%
[09:28] ***************************
[09:38] ***************************
[09:38] *81.9 minites****
[09:38] ***************************
[09:38] Inner Magic - 637.34 - 24/34
[09:38] Utility - 398.63- 20/34
[09:38] Augmentation - 525.43 - 24/34
[09:38] Concentration: 62%
[09:38] ***************************
[09:48] ***************************
[09:48] *91.9 minites****
[09:48] ***************************
[09:48] Inner Magic - 637.35 - 27/34
[09:48] Utility - 398.64- 22/34
[09:48] Augmentation - 525.44 - 27/34
[09:48] Concentration: 59%
[09:48] ***************************
[09:58] ***************************
[09:58] *102 minites****
[09:58] ***************************
[09:58] Inner Magic - 637.36 - 30/34
[09:58] Utility - 398.66- 25/34
[09:58] Augmentation - 525.45 - 30/34
[09:58] Concentration: 57%
[09:58] ***************************
[10:09] ***************************
[10:09] *112.2 minites****
[10:09] ***************************
[10:09] Inner Magic - 637.36 - 33/34
[10:09] Utility - 398.68- 27/34
[10:09] Augmentation - 525.46 - 33/34
[10:09] Concentration: 54%
[10:09] ***************************
[10:19] ***************************
[10:19] *122.2 minites****
[10:19] ***************************
[10:19] Inner Magic - 637.37 - 34/34
[10:19] Utility - 398.7- 29/34
[10:19] Augmentation - 525.47 - 34/34
[10:19] Concentration: 49%
[10:19] ***************************
[10:29] ***************************
[10:29] *132.4 minites****
[10:29] ***************************
[10:29] Inner Magic - 637.38 - 34/34
[10:29] Utility - 398.72- 32/34
[10:29] Augmentation - 525.48 - 34/34
[10:29] Concentration: 44%
[10:29] ***************************
[10:39] ***************************
[10:39] *142.5 minites****
[10:39] ***************************
[10:39] Inner Magic - 637.39 - 34/34
[10:39] Utility - 398.74- 33/34
[10:39] Augmentation - 525.49 - 34/34
[10:39] Concentration: 44%
[10:39] ***************************
I retest with the new exp model. Using the same khri, magic skills locked in 142 minutes. The new exp model has reduced the passive exp. I will redo the test using meditate and post in a few hours.
Results from new test:
[08:16] Starting Test - no Khri Meditate
[08:16] Starting Test - using Khri Meditate
[08:16] Concentration: 100%
[08:16] use shadowstep dampen darken elusion strike hasten1
[08:16] ***************************
[08:16] *0 minites****
[08:16] ***************************
[08:16] Inner Magic - 637.13 - 0/34
[08:16] Utility - 398.25- 0/34
[08:16] Augmentation - 525.16 - 0/34
[08:16] Concentration: 100%
[08:16] ***************************
[08:26] ***************************
[08:26] *9.8 minites****
[08:26] ***************************
[08:26] Inner Magic - 637.27 - 3/34
[08:26] Utility - 398.49- 3/34
[08:26] Augmentation - 525.34 - 3/34
[08:26] Concentration: 86%
[08:26] ***************************
[08:36] ***************************
[08:36] *19.8 minites****
[08:36] ***************************
[08:36] Inner Magic - 637.28 - 6/34
[08:36] Utility - 398.51- 5/34
[08:36] Augmentation - 525.35 - 6/34
[08:36] Concentration: 85%
[08:36] ***************************
[08:46] ***************************
[08:46] *29.9 minites****
[08:46] ***************************
[08:46] Inner Magic - 637.29 - 9/34
[08:46] Utility - 398.53- 8/34
[08:46] Augmentation - 525.37 - 9/34
[08:46] Concentration: 79%
[08:46] ***************************
[08:56] ***************************
[08:56] *40 minites****
[08:56] ***************************
[08:56] Inner Magic - 637.3 - 12/34
[08:56] Utility - 398.55- 10/34
[08:56] Augmentation - 525.38 - 12/34
[08:56] Concentration: 76%
[08:56] ***************************
[09:08] ***************************
[09:08] *51.5 minites****
[09:08] ***************************
[09:08] Inner Magic - 637.31 - 15/34
[09:08] Utility - 398.56- 13/34
[09:08] Augmentation - 525.39 - 15/34
[09:08] Concentration: 83%
[09:08] ***************************
[09:18] ***************************
[09:18] *61.6 minites****
[09:18] ***************************
[09:18] Inner Magic - 637.32 - 18/34
[09:18] Utility - 398.59- 15/34
[09:18] Augmentation - 525.4 - 18/34
[09:18] Concentration: 70%
[09:18] ***************************
[09:28] ***************************
[09:28] *71.8 minites****
[09:28] ***************************
[09:28] Inner Magic - 637.33 - 21/34
[09:28] Utility - 398.61- 17/34
[09:28] Augmentation - 525.41 - 21/34
[09:28] Concentration: 71%
[09:28] ***************************
[09:38] ***************************
[09:38] *81.9 minites****
[09:38] ***************************
[09:38] Inner Magic - 637.34 - 24/34
[09:38] Utility - 398.63- 20/34
[09:38] Augmentation - 525.43 - 24/34
[09:38] Concentration: 62%
[09:38] ***************************
[09:48] ***************************
[09:48] *91.9 minites****
[09:48] ***************************
[09:48] Inner Magic - 637.35 - 27/34
[09:48] Utility - 398.64- 22/34
[09:48] Augmentation - 525.44 - 27/34
[09:48] Concentration: 59%
[09:48] ***************************
[09:58] ***************************
[09:58] *102 minites****
[09:58] ***************************
[09:58] Inner Magic - 637.36 - 30/34
[09:58] Utility - 398.66- 25/34
[09:58] Augmentation - 525.45 - 30/34
[09:58] Concentration: 57%
[09:58] ***************************
[10:09] ***************************
[10:09] *112.2 minites****
[10:09] ***************************
[10:09] Inner Magic - 637.36 - 33/34
[10:09] Utility - 398.68- 27/34
[10:09] Augmentation - 525.46 - 33/34
[10:09] Concentration: 54%
[10:09] ***************************
[10:19] ***************************
[10:19] *122.2 minites****
[10:19] ***************************
[10:19] Inner Magic - 637.37 - 34/34
[10:19] Utility - 398.7- 29/34
[10:19] Augmentation - 525.47 - 34/34
[10:19] Concentration: 49%
[10:19] ***************************
[10:29] ***************************
[10:29] *132.4 minites****
[10:29] ***************************
[10:29] Inner Magic - 637.38 - 34/34
[10:29] Utility - 398.72- 32/34
[10:29] Augmentation - 525.48 - 34/34
[10:29] Concentration: 44%
[10:29] ***************************
[10:39] ***************************
[10:39] *142.5 minites****
[10:39] ***************************
[10:39] Inner Magic - 637.39 - 34/34
[10:39] Utility - 398.74- 33/34
[10:39] Augmentation - 525.49 - 34/34
[10:39] Concentration: 44%
[10:39] ***************************
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 10:05 AM CST
>>Conclusion? Well different skill levels/stats seem to have different results obviously. High level stuff seems to be hurting on exp benefits even with BEEFY stats.
Based on your test, you were able to activate your khri and then completely forget about them, gaining steady amounts of experience that surpassed your drain rate for over an hour.
Did it lock? No.
Did it give you a continual stream of experience that could keep up with your drain rate? Yes.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Based on your test, you were able to activate your khri and then completely forget about them, gaining steady amounts of experience that surpassed your drain rate for over an hour.
Did it lock? No.
Did it give you a continual stream of experience that could keep up with your drain rate? Yes.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TALBOT3
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 10:08 AM CST
>I retest with the new exp model. Using the same khri, magic skills locked in 142 minutes. The new exp model has reduced the passive exp. I will redo the test using meditate and post in a few hours.
Well the test was extremely short using meditate. It took all of 7 minutes to lock.
results:
[11:00] ***************************
[11:00] *0 minites****
[11:00] ***************************
[11:00] Inner Magic - 637.41 - 0/34
[11:00] Utility - 398.77- 0/34
[11:00] Augmentation - 525.51 - 0/34
[11:00] Concentration: 100%
[11:00] ***************************
[11:07] ***************************
[11:07] *7 minites****
[11:07] ***************************
[11:07] Inner Magic - 637.39 - 34/34
[11:07] Utility - 398.76- 33/34
[11:07] Augmentation - 525.5 - 33/34
[11:07] Concentration: 100%
[11:07] ***************************
DEFOL
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 10:57 AM CST
<< Well the test was extremely short using meditate
Indeed, meditate boost is pretty great now and i can't believe i'm saying this but maybe a bit too great?
I did a 6 khri test with sitting down and doing chain meditating all the way.
Start with:
>khri check
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 27 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Plunder meditation, which should last around 28 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Dampen meditation, which should last around 27 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Hasten meditation, which should last around 29 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Shadowstep meditation, which should last around 25 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 25 roisaen. - Aug
>
All 3 mind lock at:
khri check
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 14 roisaen.
Which makes roughly 13 minutes. I know it took a little bit longer for me so i figured it might have something to do with this:
You smirk to yourself, but cannot shake the thoughts of your recent screw-ups.
You don't think you're in either familiar or unfamiliar surroundings.
I've been killing myself to reset exp.
Indeed, meditate boost is pretty great now and i can't believe i'm saying this but maybe a bit too great?
I did a 6 khri test with sitting down and doing chain meditating all the way.
Start with:
>khri check
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 27 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Plunder meditation, which should last around 28 roisaen. - Aug
You are under the influence of the Dampen meditation, which should last around 27 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Hasten meditation, which should last around 29 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Shadowstep meditation, which should last around 25 roisaen. - Util
You are under the influence of the Elusion meditation, which should last around 25 roisaen. - Aug
>
All 3 mind lock at:
khri check
You are under the influence of the Steady meditation, which should last around 14 roisaen.
Which makes roughly 13 minutes. I know it took a little bit longer for me so i figured it might have something to do with this:
You smirk to yourself, but cannot shake the thoughts of your recent screw-ups.
You don't think you're in either familiar or unfamiliar surroundings.
I've been killing myself to reset exp.
TALBOT3
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 11:36 AM CST
Inputting test special will reset confidence to neutral.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 12:51 PM CST
>>Based on your test, you were able to activate your khri and then completely forget about them, gaining steady amounts of experience that surpassed your drain rate for over an hour.
Yes. However by the same token Cyclic spells and Forms are 'set it and forget it" exp gain models as well both award significantly more exp per tick even at high levels than Khri does. Key difference you have to restart a cyclic 3 to 5 times and/or Forms during the same period that I was able to run those Khri before they fell off. Not exactly a big diff. I am saying the exp gain is small at high ends ANY skill that takes 2 hours to lock focus training it should be reevaluated for EXP gain per pulse.
Once again I did not select HOW to train Khri skills that is what was given to us. Cyclics and Forms function the same way. I have no issue with how these things work I'm asking for Khri exp gains to be similar to those of Cyclics/Forms.
Yes. However by the same token Cyclic spells and Forms are 'set it and forget it" exp gain models as well both award significantly more exp per tick even at high levels than Khri does. Key difference you have to restart a cyclic 3 to 5 times and/or Forms during the same period that I was able to run those Khri before they fell off. Not exactly a big diff. I am saying the exp gain is small at high ends ANY skill that takes 2 hours to lock focus training it should be reevaluated for EXP gain per pulse.
Once again I did not select HOW to train Khri skills that is what was given to us. Cyclics and Forms function the same way. I have no issue with how these things work I'm asking for Khri exp gains to be similar to those of Cyclics/Forms.
DR-RAESH
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 01:00 PM CST
Cyclics are specifically not intended to be set it and forget it skill gain and that's one of the largest issues we've addressing with 3.1. It's safe to say if they're still acting that way in test I would not expect them to keep doing so.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
TIGARCLAW
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 01:42 PM CST
>>Cyclics are specifically not intended to be set it and forget it skill gain and that's one of the largest issues we've addressing with 3.1. It's safe to say if they're still acting that way in test I would not expect them to keep doing so.
They are not they require to be "recast". What I mean is there is no charging of cambs, harnessing, and all that jazz involved. prep wait cast runs its course.
They are not they require to be "recast". What I mean is there is no charging of cambs, harnessing, and all that jazz involved. prep wait cast runs its course.
DEFOL
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 02:34 PM CST
<< Inputting test special will reset confidence to neutral.
Okay, along with urban bonus this might have shaved off a minute or so from my times but the funny thing is that there is something about the combo you were running which gets you noticeably better results.
- steady plunder dampen hasten shadowstep elusion - ~12 minutes
- shadowstep dampen darken elusion strike hasten (skulk) - ~7 minutes
- elusion steady shadowstep strike dampen darken (skulk + spar) - ~12 minutes
At first i thought it had something to do with skulk but then i tried with skulk + spar and that didn't work. Only deviation i could find in those 3 sets is maybe hasten-darken-strike? I don't know, it's pretty weird but i have to admit, i might have had better times in my previous tests if i had used your khri setup.
Okay, along with urban bonus this might have shaved off a minute or so from my times but the funny thing is that there is something about the combo you were running which gets you noticeably better results.
- steady plunder dampen hasten shadowstep elusion - ~12 minutes
- shadowstep dampen darken elusion strike hasten (skulk) - ~7 minutes
- elusion steady shadowstep strike dampen darken (skulk + spar) - ~12 minutes
At first i thought it had something to do with skulk but then i tried with skulk + spar and that didn't work. Only deviation i could find in those 3 sets is maybe hasten-darken-strike? I don't know, it's pretty weird but i have to admit, i might have had better times in my previous tests if i had used your khri setup.
TALBOT3
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 02:43 PM CST
>At first i thought it had something to do with skulk but then i tried with skulk + spar and that didn't work. Only deviation i could find in those 3 >sets is maybe hasten-darken-strike? I don't know, it's pretty weird but i have to admit, i might have had better times in my previous tests if i had >used your khri setup.
The reason I picked the shadowstep, dampen, darken, elusion, strike, and hasten setup is because it is 3 augmentation and 3 utility. Maybe the extra 5 minutes to lock is utility playing catch up.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Some Observations
02/08/2014 10:58 PM CST
>>Okay, along with urban bonus this might have shaved off a minute or so from my times but the funny thing is that there is something about the combo you were running which gets you noticeably better results.
Khri meditate was creating a large swing in exp variation, so I narrowed it considerably. At the peak of what it offers it may take a little longer to lock skills, but at the lowest end of what it offers it should lock skills much quicker than it was before.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Khri meditate was creating a large swing in exp variation, so I narrowed it considerably. At the peak of what it offers it may take a little longer to lock skills, but at the lowest end of what it offers it should lock skills much quicker than it was before.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
