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I did some testing with a 33rd circle thief a couple days ago. Summary: I would like 3.0 to continue so that I can circle a lot before 3.1, because ow.
In 3.0, I use 3 khri in combat as much as possible (e.g., for melee, it's hasten/prowess/avoidance). There are, of course, a couple minutes where I have to wait to use them again after they drop, and that can be painful. However in 3.1 it's much worse for several reasons.
First off, I can't use those three all the time. The concentration drain is too fierce, to the point that I have to leave combat after several minutes and nothing will be locked by that time.
If I pick only one (avoidance) and use another for debil training (prowess), my combat time goes up, but the only skill that locked in that period was light armor (I rotate weapons and work my way up to locked rather than lock one at a time). I had avoidance up constantly (the reason I have to leave if I have no concentration--gargoyles hurt too much without that khri) and my augmentation was only up to around 25/34 (I can look up the exact number in my logs if needed). Note that these skills I'm talking about are both tertiary skills, augmentation is about half of light armor, they were both training the entire time, and aug didn't lock. Miserable. I usually spend about 2-3 hours in combat making sure everything is locked. I could only spend a fraction of that time in combat before I had to retreat and wait for my concentration to come back. Very disruptive, very not fun.
Next, for any khri apart from the three free ones, I have to kneel/sit/lie down to activate them. Since we can't kneel in hiding and I need avoidance to survive, this really sucks. Every time I kneel, even snowbeasts immediately start getting good strikes or worse on me, and they're never normally a danger. And I mean--I did kneel/hide right away, still got hit in between. I shouldn't need to retreat every few minutes just to give myself a shot at training.
It's very clearly a negative change from 3.0, where I use "khri that I want to use"--you know, khri that I specifically chose because they would help me out in combat.
And since I can't activate more than one khri at a time (e.g, "khri start avoid prowess" gives me "You attempt to blend a number of meditations to start simultaneously, but you feel your skill is lacking to complete them all"), due to apparent stupidity, that's quite a miserable lot of kneeling if I do want to have more than one turned on. Which I guess I don't. Because then my concentration tanks.
Khri delay is useless for me in combat. You have to remember to be down when it clicks over--meaning you either sit the whole time (ow) or you sit at just the right second (hope you got the timing right).
I'm not sure what will allow me to stop having to kneel all the time--more skill in magic? Stats of any sort? There's no way to find this out in-game (nor, as an aside, does there seem to be a way IG to find out what "khri delay" does).
Talking about skill in magic: at 33rd circle I got 70 aug/45 util/45 debil ranks. 70 is fair. Low for where I'd personally be if I had trained it myself because I'm obsessive about some things, but I don't mind. However, there's no way I'd only have 45 util if I got to 70 aug. 70/70/45, not 70/45/45. I guess, being tertiary, that won't be looked at, but I wanted to call attention to it anyway.
It really feels like no one playtested being this circle. It's a very unpleasant change from 3.0. I get that it can't be "too easy" to train our tertiary skills, but this is very, very unhappy. It's a downgrade from my current abilities and they're painful to activate/train on top of that.
BLUEFROG99
BLUEFROG99
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/02/2014 10:26 PM CST
One other detail I forgot regarding having to kneel to activate khri: I don't like having to out myself every few minutes. "Say, why does this moon mage/cleric/ranger/etc. keep sitting down for a few seconds? Suspicious as hell, eh Frank?"
Pretending is more of a cute RP thing, but not being super obvious about it would be just lovely.
Pretending is more of a cute RP thing, but not being super obvious about it would be just lovely.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/02/2014 11:22 PM CST
Well it does kind of make sense that an inexperienced Thief would have difficulty hiding his or her activation of special abilities from onlookers.
If you plan on being in one place for a long time, just sit and never stand up? If you are already standing, just leave the area to pop everything in place and return?
Hard to say, mechanically it is tricky coming up with something more versatile for the initial release.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
If you plan on being in one place for a long time, just sit and never stand up? If you are already standing, just leave the area to pop everything in place and return?
Hard to say, mechanically it is tricky coming up with something more versatile for the initial release.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
ALGOTHI
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/02/2014 11:48 PM CST
Once you train your Supernatural skills to a decent level you wont need to be prone to start them.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
BLUEFROG99
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 12:05 AM CST
> If you plan on being in one place for a long time, just sit and never stand up? If you are already standing, just leave the area to pop everything in place and return?
I'm thinking about combat here. I do actually see other people, y'know, from time to time, heh.
> Once you train your Supernatural skills to a decent level you wont need to be prone to start them.
Good to know it's magic skills. But what does "a decent level" mean? Do we even have a gauge for that yet?
Also: That means debilitation is going to really, really suck to train. Prowess does not last long at all. Every 3 minutes, I'll have to kneel, and it'd be worse for a 15th circle thief (assuming they want to get a non-util/non-aug khri for their first real choice so they can finally train that skill themselves).
I'm thinking about combat here. I do actually see other people, y'know, from time to time, heh.
> Once you train your Supernatural skills to a decent level you wont need to be prone to start them.
Good to know it's magic skills. But what does "a decent level" mean? Do we even have a gauge for that yet?
Also: That means debilitation is going to really, really suck to train. Prowess does not last long at all. Every 3 minutes, I'll have to kneel, and it'd be worse for a 15th circle thief (assuming they want to get a non-util/non-aug khri for their first real choice so they can finally train that skill themselves).
ALGOTHI
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 12:34 AM CST
> That means debilitation is going to really, really suck to train.
Guild taught ambushes also teach Debilitation, so you are not really reliant on Khri for that skill.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Guild taught ambushes also teach Debilitation, so you are not really reliant on Khri for that skill.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 07:38 AM CST
barbs sit for their meditations and wm's sit for summon admittance, so if you "pretend" either of those guilds you'll be fine.
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
TIGARCLAW
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 08:50 AM CST
>>barbs sit for their meditations and wm's sit for summon admittance, so if you "pretend" either of those guilds you'll be fine.
People are going to rip me for saying this but... Neighet Barbs nor WM NEED those skills in combat and can do without especially WMs so weather they have to sit for those skills or not is not really much of an issue.
I use both a barb and a Wm and have not ever needed to use Meditate or Summon Admittance in combat EVER to worry about that.
Thiefs on the other hand live and die by their Khri. I do think that this needs to change and it can not be compared to the Barb and Wm Meditate/Admittance.
People are going to rip me for saying this but... Neighet Barbs nor WM NEED those skills in combat and can do without especially WMs so weather they have to sit for those skills or not is not really much of an issue.
I use both a barb and a Wm and have not ever needed to use Meditate or Summon Admittance in combat EVER to worry about that.
Thiefs on the other hand live and die by their Khri. I do think that this needs to change and it can not be compared to the Barb and Wm Meditate/Admittance.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 10:10 AM CST
>>not ever needed to use Meditate or Summon Admittance in combat EVER to worry about that.
Amusing how ardent folks' posting can be. I'll go one further... it is NOT a REQUIREMENT to EVER use ANY abilities in combat :)
You're being silly. The current discussion involves training abilities out of combat, in a social setting.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Amusing how ardent folks' posting can be. I'll go one further... it is NOT a REQUIREMENT to EVER use ANY abilities in combat :)
You're being silly. The current discussion involves training abilities out of combat, in a social setting.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
BLUEFROG99
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 10:17 AM CST
Actually, no, it was about training in combat in a social setting. I do have occasion to do that. And there are spars, too.
But the whole aside was just a minor addendum to my original post, which is much more important to me.
But the whole aside was just a minor addendum to my original post, which is much more important to me.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 10:23 AM CST
>>Thiefs on the other hand live and die by their Khri.
Unless a khri-free Thief play notably different than a spell-free Necro, my anecdata questions how accurate this claim is.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Unless a khri-free Thief play notably different than a spell-free Necro, my anecdata questions how accurate this claim is.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 10:27 AM CST
>>Unless a khri-free Thief play notably different than a spell-free Necro, my anecdata questions how accurate this claim is.
You know what I mean. I can swing my weapons and so on like a MM can or a Cleric can or any other guild can and not use my abilities. But the abilities make the guild. Khri are very imporant to thiefs in combat and do make the guild period. Meditate does not and neither does Summon Admittance.
You know what I mean. I can swing my weapons and so on like a MM can or a Cleric can or any other guild can and not use my abilities. But the abilities make the guild. Khri are very imporant to thiefs in combat and do make the guild period. Meditate does not and neither does Summon Admittance.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 10:52 AM CST
>>You know what I mean.
Nope, I didn't know what you mean.
I still disagree with you after your clarification, though.
It sounds like you just don't care that much about meditate, so you don't see it as "super critical" to the barbarian guild, unlike khri which you see as "super critical".
You're not going to be the king of everything right out of the gate. When playing magic using guilds, I barely bothered using actual buffs in combat until I had the ability to cast at higher levels, otherwise I would always be recasting instead of actual fighting. Instead, I waited until I had enough power perception to get some good durations out of my spells.
It might be easier to just assume that your version of being able to find "good mana rooms" in the middle of fighting is getting enough skill to activate khri without sitting/kneeling/whatever.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Nope, I didn't know what you mean.
I still disagree with you after your clarification, though.
It sounds like you just don't care that much about meditate, so you don't see it as "super critical" to the barbarian guild, unlike khri which you see as "super critical".
You're not going to be the king of everything right out of the gate. When playing magic using guilds, I barely bothered using actual buffs in combat until I had the ability to cast at higher levels, otherwise I would always be recasting instead of actual fighting. Instead, I waited until I had enough power perception to get some good durations out of my spells.
It might be easier to just assume that your version of being able to find "good mana rooms" in the middle of fighting is getting enough skill to activate khri without sitting/kneeling/whatever.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 11:28 AM CST
>>It might be easier to just assume that your version of being able to find "good mana rooms" in the middle of fighting is getting enough skill to activate khri without sitting/kneeling/whatever.
Right. Lets make everything difficult, complex and super hard so it feels like a job. After all its not like this is a game.
Right. Lets make everything difficult, complex and super hard so it feels like a job. After all its not like this is a game.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 11:40 AM CST
>>Right. Lets make everything difficult, complex and super hard so it feels like a job. After all its not like this is a game.
Well, as long as you're being hyperbolic about it.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Well, as long as you're being hyperbolic about it.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DEFOL
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 12:28 PM CST
I can't say about magic for other guilds but i wanted to add that it takes more than just swinging your weapon to play a thief. Unlike most other guilds we rely a lot on stealth for training and it's not just about locking your stealth from missile range, we need to make it work in the most difficult circumstances (there are stealth checks for most of our abilities). As a thief you want to do your best not to take any damage at all or pretty soon it becomes impossible to hide, get a single bleeder and you're done. I think this is why thieves tend to be so reliant on those buffs. To me Khri is mandatory, unless i hunt in the very end of the milking phase.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 12:46 PM CST
The argument of 'Its hard in combat' when speaking of sitting/kneeling to khri up is silly at best. All the war mages I speak with train their guild required skill via sitting/RT via admittance IN combat without a hitch. Additionally, saying you 'NEED' Khri to train in combat isn't accurate for the most part, especially early circle. Currently have a character up to Raiders/Young Gryphons who's never buffed for combat from 0, its not terribly difficult.
Now, saying you don't really like it and it might require almost 3 extra lines of scripted inconvenience, yes, thats most likely true. Still hardly the end of the world and a problem that solves itself nicely via skill/concentration giving you a wonderful opportunity for a feeling of growth.
Samsaren
Now, saying you don't really like it and it might require almost 3 extra lines of scripted inconvenience, yes, thats most likely true. Still hardly the end of the world and a problem that solves itself nicely via skill/concentration giving you a wonderful opportunity for a feeling of growth.
Samsaren
TIGARCLAW
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 01:09 PM CST
>>Additionally, saying you 'NEED' Khri to train in combat isn't accurate for the most part, especially early circle.
There are hard requirements for both Supernatural 1 and 2 as well as Inner Magic ranks for circling. So yes you do NEED to train Khri in combat if you are going to be a decent thief this century. Also not using any Khri in combat is akin to a MM or a War Mage or a Cleric not using Magic in combat. They can swing a weapon without it but its like using only one leg to get around instead of two.
There are hard requirements for both Supernatural 1 and 2 as well as Inner Magic ranks for circling. So yes you do NEED to train Khri in combat if you are going to be a decent thief this century. Also not using any Khri in combat is akin to a MM or a War Mage or a Cleric not using Magic in combat. They can swing a weapon without it but its like using only one leg to get around instead of two.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 01:35 PM CST
It's also worth noting that without the sit/kneel/prone BONUS you wouldn't be starting that khri at all given those ranks. So then someone says, well, make them all easier to start so you don't need a bonus. Ok, maybe that works on day one when people only have close to minimum ranks - people are happy. But then they realize that by lowering the floor, you are both less effective with your abilities, and the growth of the ability is slower. Oh, so lower the ceiling too. Oops, now we have one guild that not only caps out their abilities at lower ranks than every other guild, but is also hamstrung from learning at the high end because the ceiling gets met sooner. Ok, simple, let's write some more super high tier khri to fix that. In doing so we continue to push Thieves farther and farther behind other guilds in TDP potential since they now have to wait longer to start actually training an entire skill set.
It was asked if we even tested various level ranges. Certainly not all of them, but bear in mind testing a level range compared to an old system requires getting familiar with how that level range can work under the old system as well as the new. But that's why we open Test to players. For the last few months I've watched and talked with testers of various level ranges, and have made numerous changes to things based on requests from all levels. So though I have not personally leveled a Thief from 0 to 150 in both Prime and Test, I've done what I can to consider what issues people will face, and did my best to lessen the worst of them.
Bottom line, if you want to consider the day 3.1 hits as the worst day of your Thief's life, that's fine. But regardless of any other details, the grandfathering is going to be in-line with what other guilds have gotten, and the range for what skills are needed to cap various tiers of abilities is going to be the same as other guilds. If you don't ever want to touch Supernatural skills again after that day, ok, you still get snipe, and slips, and backstab, and passages, and mark, and and and ... well, a few other things that still makes you a Thief - whether you give the changes a chance or not.
And finally, the day will come. Pushing it off for minor reasons won't help. And once that release day is done and over with, spend the TDPs you get on stats that will boost your concentration, or whatever makes sense for what you think you'll need. Every moment past that point you'll be better than you were on that day, and our conversations can shift from how bad that moment will be, to where we go next.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
It was asked if we even tested various level ranges. Certainly not all of them, but bear in mind testing a level range compared to an old system requires getting familiar with how that level range can work under the old system as well as the new. But that's why we open Test to players. For the last few months I've watched and talked with testers of various level ranges, and have made numerous changes to things based on requests from all levels. So though I have not personally leveled a Thief from 0 to 150 in both Prime and Test, I've done what I can to consider what issues people will face, and did my best to lessen the worst of them.
Bottom line, if you want to consider the day 3.1 hits as the worst day of your Thief's life, that's fine. But regardless of any other details, the grandfathering is going to be in-line with what other guilds have gotten, and the range for what skills are needed to cap various tiers of abilities is going to be the same as other guilds. If you don't ever want to touch Supernatural skills again after that day, ok, you still get snipe, and slips, and backstab, and passages, and mark, and and and ... well, a few other things that still makes you a Thief - whether you give the changes a chance or not.
And finally, the day will come. Pushing it off for minor reasons won't help. And once that release day is done and over with, spend the TDPs you get on stats that will boost your concentration, or whatever makes sense for what you think you'll need. Every moment past that point you'll be better than you were on that day, and our conversations can shift from how bad that moment will be, to where we go next.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 01:42 PM CST
>>It's also worth noting that without the sit/kneel/prone BONUS you wouldn't be starting that khri at all given those ranks
IMO, it's similar to complaints about how every tool that exists can't be gotten at masterful quality so everyone is hamstrung in making awesome items themselves, ignoring the fact that they were never meant to see masterful tools as the default at-level tool to have to begin with.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
IMO, it's similar to complaints about how every tool that exists can't be gotten at masterful quality so everyone is hamstrung in making awesome items themselves, ignoring the fact that they were never meant to see masterful tools as the default at-level tool to have to begin with.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 01:48 PM CST
>>But regardless of any other details, the grandfathering is going to be in-line with what other guilds have gotten, and the range for what skills are needed to cap various tiers of abilities is going to be the same as other guilds.
Thank you for your work its greatly appreciated. No issues with thiefs going in line with other guilds that works.
To not touch Khri in combat would handicap the guild significantly that really is not an option for thiefs. I was discussing "playability" in response to the fellow with the small thief. Stuff has to be playable and not feel like its a complex math problem to get it to work.
Pesonally I was wondering why it 3.1 was not already out than saw the stuff on Research.
Thank you for your work its greatly appreciated. No issues with thiefs going in line with other guilds that works.
To not touch Khri in combat would handicap the guild significantly that really is not an option for thiefs. I was discussing "playability" in response to the fellow with the small thief. Stuff has to be playable and not feel like its a complex math problem to get it to work.
Pesonally I was wondering why it 3.1 was not already out than saw the stuff on Research.
DEFOL
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 02:16 PM CST
<< For the last few months I've watched and talked with testers of various level ranges, and have made numerous changes to things based on requests from all levels.
Much appreciated indeed but don't get us wrong, naturally we just want to get the very best deal out of this transition and it wont hurt to ask. All in all you can't take advice from players when it comes to balancing.
<< Bottom line, if you want to consider the day 3.1 hits as the worst day of your Thief's life, that's fine.
This will be the case no matter what you do. It will take time to get used to a change this big.
Much appreciated indeed but don't get us wrong, naturally we just want to get the very best deal out of this transition and it wont hurt to ask. All in all you can't take advice from players when it comes to balancing.
<< Bottom line, if you want to consider the day 3.1 hits as the worst day of your Thief's life, that's fine.
This will be the case no matter what you do. It will take time to get used to a change this big.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 02:21 PM CST
>>To not touch Khri in combat would handicap the guild significantly that really is not an option for thiefs.
Except I don't think this is actually happening.
What is happening is that if you don't have the ability to activate a khri normally (aka: while standing), or if you just want to activate your khri better, you have the option to boost your skill by sitting. In other words, you're being given the ability to inflate your skill at performing a specific khri by choosing to do something.
It's like saying you can cast esoteric spells at 100 PM if you lie down first. That doesn't mean you're supposed to lie down to cast esoteric spells. It means that if you really want to cast it, but lack the normal skill to do so, you can if you do a particular (and occasionally risky) action.
If you decide that sitting isn't your thing, then use something easier that is more at your skill level.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Except I don't think this is actually happening.
What is happening is that if you don't have the ability to activate a khri normally (aka: while standing), or if you just want to activate your khri better, you have the option to boost your skill by sitting. In other words, you're being given the ability to inflate your skill at performing a specific khri by choosing to do something.
It's like saying you can cast esoteric spells at 100 PM if you lie down first. That doesn't mean you're supposed to lie down to cast esoteric spells. It means that if you really want to cast it, but lack the normal skill to do so, you can if you do a particular (and occasionally risky) action.
If you decide that sitting isn't your thing, then use something easier that is more at your skill level.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DEFOL
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 02:25 PM CST
<< All the war mages I speak with train their guild required skill via sitting/RT via admittance IN combat without a hitch.
War mages must be overpowered. I went down to ~40% vitality in less than it takes to delay a single Khri while sitting.
* A Dragon Priest assassin fires a crossbow bolt at you. You barely block with a crocodile-skin shield.
The crossbow bolt hits a wall and falls to the floor!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin chops a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You dodge, stepping aside in the nick of time.
[You're solidly balanced with opponent dominating.]
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin fires a crossbow bolt at you. You dodge, ducking in the nick of time.
The crossbow bolt hits a wall and falls to the floor!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin slices a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You evade, leaning to one side with no room to spare.
[You're solidly balanced with opponent in superior position.]
>sit
You sit down.
>
The Dragon Priest assassin moves into a position to parry.
>
* Looking as if this were a bad idea, a Dragon Priest assassin chops a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You fail to dodge. The dagger lands a solid hit to your left leg.
[You're bruised, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin feints low at you. You dodge, just stepping out of harm's way.
[You're bruised, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin begins to advance on you!
The Dragon Priest assassin is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
>
Your wooden medallion warms in response to your danger. A dull crimson glow radiates from the device and seeps into your exposed skin, leaving you feeling a little better than before.
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin feints to the side at you. You evade, barely managing to get out of the way.
[You're bruised, badly balanced with opponent dominating.]
>
A Dragon Priest assassin snickers with glee, relishing the moment.
>
* Driving in like the irresistable force of a cyclone, a Dragon Priest assassin fires a crossbow bolt at you. You fail to block with a crocodile-skin shield. The bolt lands a very heavy hit that scratches the left elbow.
The crossbow bolt lodges itself shallowly into you!
[You're battered, badly balanced with opponent in very strong position.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin closes to pole weapon range on you!
>
* With grace, a Dragon Priest assassin slices wide at you. You badly fail to parry with a haralun stiletto. The dagger lands a light hit to your right hand.
[You're battered, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin closes to melee range on you!
>
* Moving in with powerful grace, a Dragon Priest assassin slices wide at you. You fail to dodge, moving almost completely out of harm's reach. The dagger lands a good strike to your right arm.
[You're battered, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
* Driving in with naturally fluid movements, a Dragon Priest assassin slices a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You fail to dodge. The dagger lands a good hit to your right leg.
[You're battered, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin begins to advance on you!
The Dragon Priest assassin is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
>
* Moving in with powerful grace, a Dragon Priest assassin slices a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You attempt to evade, receiving a glancing blow. The dagger lands a good strike that scratches the right hamstring in a light blow barely worth mentioning.
[You're beat up, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
* Strongly, a Dragon Priest assassin claws at you. You fail to dodge. The claw lands a good hit to your chest.
[You're beat up, badly balanced with opponent dominating.]
>
* Driving in like the irresistable force of a cyclone, a Dragon Priest assassin chops a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You badly fail to parry with a haralun stiletto. The dagger lands a good strike that nicks your left forearm.
[You're very beat up, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin closes to pole weapon range on you!
>
* Moving with powerful grace, a Dragon Priest assassin chops a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You attempt to dodge, not quite escaping the blast. The dagger lands a solid hit to your left leg.
[You're very beat up, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
* With the speed and temerity of a swooping falcon, a Dragon Priest assassin claws at you. You badly fail to parry with a haralun stiletto. The claw lands a strong hit that nicks the neck with a light scratch, lightly stunning you.
[You're badly hurt, badly balanced with opponent dominating.]
War mages must be overpowered. I went down to ~40% vitality in less than it takes to delay a single Khri while sitting.
* A Dragon Priest assassin fires a crossbow bolt at you. You barely block with a crocodile-skin shield.
The crossbow bolt hits a wall and falls to the floor!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin chops a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You dodge, stepping aside in the nick of time.
[You're solidly balanced with opponent dominating.]
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin fires a crossbow bolt at you. You dodge, ducking in the nick of time.
The crossbow bolt hits a wall and falls to the floor!
[You're solidly balanced with no advantage.]
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin slices a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You evade, leaning to one side with no room to spare.
[You're solidly balanced with opponent in superior position.]
>sit
You sit down.
>
The Dragon Priest assassin moves into a position to parry.
>
* Looking as if this were a bad idea, a Dragon Priest assassin chops a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You fail to dodge. The dagger lands a solid hit to your left leg.
[You're bruised, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin feints low at you. You dodge, just stepping out of harm's way.
[You're bruised, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin begins to advance on you!
The Dragon Priest assassin is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
>
Your wooden medallion warms in response to your danger. A dull crimson glow radiates from the device and seeps into your exposed skin, leaving you feeling a little better than before.
>
* A Dragon Priest assassin feints to the side at you. You evade, barely managing to get out of the way.
[You're bruised, badly balanced with opponent dominating.]
>
A Dragon Priest assassin snickers with glee, relishing the moment.
>
* Driving in like the irresistable force of a cyclone, a Dragon Priest assassin fires a crossbow bolt at you. You fail to block with a crocodile-skin shield. The bolt lands a very heavy hit that scratches the left elbow.
The crossbow bolt lodges itself shallowly into you!
[You're battered, badly balanced with opponent in very strong position.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin closes to pole weapon range on you!
>
* With grace, a Dragon Priest assassin slices wide at you. You badly fail to parry with a haralun stiletto. The dagger lands a light hit to your right hand.
[You're battered, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin closes to melee range on you!
>
* Moving in with powerful grace, a Dragon Priest assassin slices wide at you. You fail to dodge, moving almost completely out of harm's reach. The dagger lands a good strike to your right arm.
[You're battered, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
* Driving in with naturally fluid movements, a Dragon Priest assassin slices a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You fail to dodge. The dagger lands a good hit to your right leg.
[You're battered, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin begins to advance on you!
The Dragon Priest assassin is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
>
* Moving in with powerful grace, a Dragon Priest assassin slices a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You attempt to evade, receiving a glancing blow. The dagger lands a good strike that scratches the right hamstring in a light blow barely worth mentioning.
[You're beat up, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
* Strongly, a Dragon Priest assassin claws at you. You fail to dodge. The claw lands a good hit to your chest.
[You're beat up, badly balanced with opponent dominating.]
>
* Driving in like the irresistable force of a cyclone, a Dragon Priest assassin chops a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You badly fail to parry with a haralun stiletto. The dagger lands a good strike that nicks your left forearm.
[You're very beat up, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
The Dragon Priest assassin closes to pole weapon range on you!
>
* Moving with powerful grace, a Dragon Priest assassin chops a silver q'zhalata dagger at you. You attempt to dodge, not quite escaping the blast. The dagger lands a solid hit to your left leg.
[You're very beat up, badly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
* With the speed and temerity of a swooping falcon, a Dragon Priest assassin claws at you. You badly fail to parry with a haralun stiletto. The claw lands a strong hit that nicks the neck with a light scratch, lightly stunning you.
[You're badly hurt, badly balanced with opponent dominating.]
ORBITAL303
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 02:40 PM CST
I personally never summon admittance in combat to train summoning.
- Starlear -
- Starlear -
TIGARCLAW
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 02:47 PM CST
>>I personally never summon admittance in combat to train summoning.
I've tried it a couple of times early on AT level and it was a painful experience I did not care to repeat again.
I've tried it a couple of times early on AT level and it was a painful experience I did not care to repeat again.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 04:01 PM CST
Why do we want to make the game harder for newer characters and, more importantly, players? :( That's as baffling to me as people willingly kneeling in at-level combat to train a skill.
I've rolled a couple of characters since 3.0, and it hasn't gotten any easier.
I love that we have such a great community of long time players, but I want to see new folks, too. :\
I've rolled a couple of characters since 3.0, and it hasn't gotten any easier.
I love that we have such a great community of long time players, but I want to see new folks, too. :\
BLUEFROG99
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 04:37 PM CST
> Now, saying you don't really like it and it might require almost 3 extra lines of scripted inconvenience, yes, thats most likely true.
It is hard to believe, but some people don't have very complex scripts and will have to do all of this khri stuff by hand! Also, kneeling at melee has a very painful balance penalty, and retreating hurts your accuracy and your defensive learning (waiting for things to re-engage you).
> Still hardly the end of the world and a problem that solves itself nicely via skill/concentration giving you a wonderful opportunity for a feeling of growth.
Except higher level thieves will never be forced to experience this. And it'll be less "growth" and more "hey, I can finally do that thing I used to do all the time, thank goodness."
> It's also worth noting that without the sit/kneel/prone BONUS you wouldn't be starting that khri at all given those ranks.
This is why it is such a downgrade for these lower circles: Abilities I've been using since at least 15th are now, at 33rd, abilities I'm not supposed to be able to use at all without this extra bonus that was added on. From my point of view, I don't see why "khri delay" shouldn't let me activate them, even if it takes a minute or two for some khri. Or have a much lower duration. Or why it couldn't be that smaller boost at first. Just because a floor is lowered doesn't mean the ceiling has to be, in my experience, as a player; I have no idea how it has to be coded.
You're saying I should feel grateful that I can, with painful (in combat) effort, continue to use the skills I've already been using for up to 18 circles. More than half the lifetime of the character. It hurts. It's not like these are skills I've just been neglecting to train. I can't go into this ahead of the game.
> bear in mind testing a level range compared to an old system requires getting familiar with how that level range can work under the old system as well as the new. But that's why we open Test to players.
That's why I'm saying all this. It is miserable for me at circle 33. Unless I give up on using khri in combat. And that's miserable in another way. That's my playtesting experience.
> If you don't ever want to touch Supernatural skills again after that day, ok,
Except if I want to keep playing and circling with that character. I'm aware that "if you don't like it, don't play" is always an option. I'm hoping to give feedback on why it's so unpleasant because I love this game and this guild so much.
I appreciate all the work here, and as someone with a magic-using primary character, I find it incredibly satisfying that I'll be able to work these supernatural skills with my thief. But right now it is very punitive for my thief's current circle and experiences.
I'd also like to reiterate that a lot of current thieves are not going to face the kneeling/etc. hardship at all and have very little frame of reference for how painful it is.
It is hard to believe, but some people don't have very complex scripts and will have to do all of this khri stuff by hand! Also, kneeling at melee has a very painful balance penalty, and retreating hurts your accuracy and your defensive learning (waiting for things to re-engage you).
> Still hardly the end of the world and a problem that solves itself nicely via skill/concentration giving you a wonderful opportunity for a feeling of growth.
Except higher level thieves will never be forced to experience this. And it'll be less "growth" and more "hey, I can finally do that thing I used to do all the time, thank goodness."
> It's also worth noting that without the sit/kneel/prone BONUS you wouldn't be starting that khri at all given those ranks.
This is why it is such a downgrade for these lower circles: Abilities I've been using since at least 15th are now, at 33rd, abilities I'm not supposed to be able to use at all without this extra bonus that was added on. From my point of view, I don't see why "khri delay" shouldn't let me activate them, even if it takes a minute or two for some khri. Or have a much lower duration. Or why it couldn't be that smaller boost at first. Just because a floor is lowered doesn't mean the ceiling has to be, in my experience, as a player; I have no idea how it has to be coded.
You're saying I should feel grateful that I can, with painful (in combat) effort, continue to use the skills I've already been using for up to 18 circles. More than half the lifetime of the character. It hurts. It's not like these are skills I've just been neglecting to train. I can't go into this ahead of the game.
> bear in mind testing a level range compared to an old system requires getting familiar with how that level range can work under the old system as well as the new. But that's why we open Test to players.
That's why I'm saying all this. It is miserable for me at circle 33. Unless I give up on using khri in combat. And that's miserable in another way. That's my playtesting experience.
> If you don't ever want to touch Supernatural skills again after that day, ok,
Except if I want to keep playing and circling with that character. I'm aware that "if you don't like it, don't play" is always an option. I'm hoping to give feedback on why it's so unpleasant because I love this game and this guild so much.
I appreciate all the work here, and as someone with a magic-using primary character, I find it incredibly satisfying that I'll be able to work these supernatural skills with my thief. But right now it is very punitive for my thief's current circle and experiences.
I'd also like to reiterate that a lot of current thieves are not going to face the kneeling/etc. hardship at all and have very little frame of reference for how painful it is.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 04:59 PM CST
Question... how is kneeling any harder/more complicated than
1). Raising a Fissure in a room ahead of buffing, or more onerous than finding a good mana room to buff in ahead of combat?
2). Finding your personal mana cap and making sure not to exceed it while buffing?
3). Leaving combat when your defensive buffs expire, and you must repeat #1?
Kneeling was added as a bonus mechanism, but folks seem to be identifying it as a penalty. Perhaps if we remove it entirely there won't be any issues?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
1). Raising a Fissure in a room ahead of buffing, or more onerous than finding a good mana room to buff in ahead of combat?
2). Finding your personal mana cap and making sure not to exceed it while buffing?
3). Leaving combat when your defensive buffs expire, and you must repeat #1?
Kneeling was added as a bonus mechanism, but folks seem to be identifying it as a penalty. Perhaps if we remove it entirely there won't be any issues?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
ALGOTHI
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 05:17 PM CST
>Perhaps if we remove it entirely there won't be any issues?
No, please. Even if you are above the point of having to Kneel or Delay to start Khri, both offer some pretty nice benefits Id not like to lose.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
No, please. Even if you are above the point of having to Kneel or Delay to start Khri, both offer some pretty nice benefits Id not like to lose.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
BLUEFROG99
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 05:27 PM CST
1) I consider Fissure to be one of my WM's buffs, so it's no harder than casting any other buff. Finding a good mana room is a matter of typing >pow and moving to the room with the best mana. So, a few seconds of work. Less if you remember the area well.
2) I test my personal caps every couple of weeks and adjust my notes to reflect that. So, a few minutes every two weeks. Pretty simple.
3) I don't leave combat to re-buff.
Here is what happened, every few minutes, in test:
> kneel
You kneel down upon the ground.
hide
K>
* Timing it well, a snowbeast claws at you. You badly fail to block with a heavily lacquered plumwood parry stick.
The claw lands a good strike (3/22) to your left arm.
...and then I hid. So: ow, ow, and also, ow. That's a critter that doesn't get good hits on me, much less good strikes. (I don't know why I didn't copy my balance--that's from the day of testing recently--but it was definitely bad.)
Like I said, my main character is a magic user. I'm very used to recasting my buffs. I don't start getting murdered when I have to do so. Pausing in place is not the same thing as kneeling.
It definitely doesn't feel like a bonus mechanism, no matter how much you keep calling it that. My character currently doesn't have to kneel and will have to in the future: therefore, penalty. If you take "things a character can do" and whittle away at it, it is the same thing as "a penalty for that character."
Telling me that because I find it frustrating you're willing to render all my 15th+ khri useless is pointlessly cruel and rude. Was I not supposed to test and share my struggles here? I suspected there wasn't enough data for this circle range so I contributed my experience--it was a miserable experience and that's not something you want to hear, I'm sure, but... it still sucked.
I haven't demanded a change to the reduced khri durations my character now has (prowess is very short at 3 minutes), nor asked to be able to activate more than one in one command (I only mentioned it as a relevant change). I know to expect some new limitations because of the new skillset. But kneeling in combat? Every, say, 3 minutes? I find that absolutely ridiculous.
2) I test my personal caps every couple of weeks and adjust my notes to reflect that. So, a few minutes every two weeks. Pretty simple.
3) I don't leave combat to re-buff.
Here is what happened, every few minutes, in test:
> kneel
You kneel down upon the ground.
hide
K>
* Timing it well, a snowbeast claws at you. You badly fail to block with a heavily lacquered plumwood parry stick.
The claw lands a good strike (3/22) to your left arm.
...and then I hid. So: ow, ow, and also, ow. That's a critter that doesn't get good hits on me, much less good strikes. (I don't know why I didn't copy my balance--that's from the day of testing recently--but it was definitely bad.)
Like I said, my main character is a magic user. I'm very used to recasting my buffs. I don't start getting murdered when I have to do so. Pausing in place is not the same thing as kneeling.
It definitely doesn't feel like a bonus mechanism, no matter how much you keep calling it that. My character currently doesn't have to kneel and will have to in the future: therefore, penalty. If you take "things a character can do" and whittle away at it, it is the same thing as "a penalty for that character."
Telling me that because I find it frustrating you're willing to render all my 15th+ khri useless is pointlessly cruel and rude. Was I not supposed to test and share my struggles here? I suspected there wasn't enough data for this circle range so I contributed my experience--it was a miserable experience and that's not something you want to hear, I'm sure, but... it still sucked.
I haven't demanded a change to the reduced khri durations my character now has (prowess is very short at 3 minutes), nor asked to be able to activate more than one in one command (I only mentioned it as a relevant change). I know to expect some new limitations because of the new skillset. But kneeling in combat? Every, say, 3 minutes? I find that absolutely ridiculous.
ALGOTHI
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 05:40 PM CST
>It definitely doesn't feel like a bonus mechanism, no matter how much you keep calling it that. My character currently doesn't have to kneel and will have to in the future: therefore, penalty. If you take "things a character can do" and whittle away at it, it is the same thing as "a penalty for that character."
The alternative is not being able to use it at all, its important to understand this before you start calling it a penalty.
For more information on how it IS a bonus see this post:
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Dragon%20Realms%203.1%20Test/Thieves/view/40
Post 19
In that post you can see that I was able to start all Utility khri with 155 ranks in Utility without Kneeling of Delay, barring Sagacity. So its not a lot of skill to manage, though it will take some time to catch up from the low amount of grandfathering ranks we are granted. If you lack the skill to start a khri without kneeling I would highly suggest retreating/hiding first. Yes, this may be a minor inconvenience of perhaps 10 seconds or so, but its much better then getting damaged.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
The alternative is not being able to use it at all, its important to understand this before you start calling it a penalty.
For more information on how it IS a bonus see this post:
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Dragon%20Realms%203.1%20Test/Thieves/view/40
Post 19
In that post you can see that I was able to start all Utility khri with 155 ranks in Utility without Kneeling of Delay, barring Sagacity. So its not a lot of skill to manage, though it will take some time to catch up from the low amount of grandfathering ranks we are granted. If you lack the skill to start a khri without kneeling I would highly suggest retreating/hiding first. Yes, this may be a minor inconvenience of perhaps 10 seconds or so, but its much better then getting damaged.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
ORBITAL303
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 05:51 PM CST
I think the crux of the issue is a bonus (to your ability to buff yourself) that requires you to give up something else (the benefits of standing rather than kneeling or sitting in combat). In this case it's risking damage in combat to kneel and do whatever to put your stuff up - the risk is greater than the reward.
- Starlear -
- Starlear -
TALEEK
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 06:04 PM CST
Starlear is just on fire the last couple days. Once again, well said Sir.
ORBITAL303
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 06:09 PM CST
>charge ring 10
You focus some of your brainpower into your thiefstone ring.
LATER THAT DAY, IN COMBAT:
>invoke ring
You suddenly remember how to not suck at Khri while standing up!
(kidding of course)
- Starlear -
You focus some of your brainpower into your thiefstone ring.
LATER THAT DAY, IN COMBAT:
>invoke ring
You suddenly remember how to not suck at Khri while standing up!
(kidding of course)
- Starlear -
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 06:36 PM CST
>>Why do we want to make the game harder for newer characters and, more importantly, players? :(
I'm inclined to think that DR 2.1 wasn't challenging at all to players. I'm further inclined to think DR 3.0 & 3.1 isn't very challenging to players, but it's a step in that direction.
>>I think the crux of the issue is a bonus (to your ability to buff yourself) that requires you to give up something else (the benefits of standing rather than kneeling or sitting in combat). In this case it's risking damage in combat to kneel and do whatever to put your stuff up - the risk is greater than the reward.
Then choose where and when you will take your situational bonus and when you will rely on the predefined system balance. I won't apologize for our team developing abilities that require intelligent use to pull off effectively.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I'm inclined to think that DR 2.1 wasn't challenging at all to players. I'm further inclined to think DR 3.0 & 3.1 isn't very challenging to players, but it's a step in that direction.
>>I think the crux of the issue is a bonus (to your ability to buff yourself) that requires you to give up something else (the benefits of standing rather than kneeling or sitting in combat). In this case it's risking damage in combat to kneel and do whatever to put your stuff up - the risk is greater than the reward.
Then choose where and when you will take your situational bonus and when you will rely on the predefined system balance. I won't apologize for our team developing abilities that require intelligent use to pull off effectively.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
DR-RICINUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 06:42 PM CST
>>It is hard to believe, but some people don't have very complex scripts and will have to do all of this khri stuff by hand!
Do you mean to say...
>khri whatever
or
>kneel
khri delay whatever
<wait>
stand
...is such a challenge to typing as to even compare to the complexity of...
>prep sdm 10
charge cambrinth 10
invoke cambrinth
harness 10
cast <self/group/area>
>>Also, kneeling at melee has a very painful balance penalty, and retreating hurts your accuracy and your defensive learning (waiting for things to re-engage you).
Then use your khri without the bonus when you think it's a bad idea to take a knee. It's meant to be a choice that has meaning otherwise it's treads beyond bonus and becomes the norm.
>>Except higher level thieves will never be forced to experience this. And it'll be less "growth" and more "hey, I can finally do that thing I used to do all the time, thank goodness."
They may be beyond needing it to even start a khri, but no one will be grandfathered beyond the usefulness of the sitting bonus. But you know what? Even if someone was, I'd be ok with it, because being higher level on day one should have some perk over someone lower level.
>>This is why it is such a downgrade for these lower circles: Abilities I've been using since at least 15th are now, at 33rd, abilities I'm not supposed to be able to use at all without this extra bonus that was added on.
At your skill level it won't take very long at all to get to the point where you no longer have to kneel to start a tier 2 khri.
>>From my point of view, I don't see why "khri delay" shouldn't let me activate them, even if it takes a minute or two for some khri.
Uhh, ok, so can a magic user then cast any tier spell if they just prep it a little longer? Or should skill only be a gateway for them because they are supposed to be good at it?
>>You're saying I should feel grateful that I can, with painful (in combat) effort, continue to use the skills I've already been using for up to 18 circles. More than half the lifetime of the character. It hurts. It's not like these are skills I've just been neglecting to train. I can't go into this ahead of the game.
No, I'm saying that for folks in your particular circle range, you may need to either spend some time on just tier 1 abilities while in combat, or find a moment to kneel for a split second before starting a tier 2. Once you have a few more ranks aside from the minimum grandfathering then you have some other options.
>>Unless I give up on using khri in combat. And that's miserable in another way. That's my playtesting experience.
You mean give up some khri in combat. There was nothing in your testing that indicated that you couldn't use tier 1 khri to train while in combat with any difficulty.
>>Except if I want to keep playing and circling with that character. I'm aware that "if you don't like it, don't play" is always an option. I'm hoping to give feedback on why it's so unpleasant because I love this game and this guild so much.
I never said if you don't like it don't play. The Supernatural reqs are still there, but they're incredibly minor, and it's two whole commands every few minutes to do minimal training of three skill, so yeah, that pretty much falls under the category of non-issue. Here's the 2 commands:
khri start <augmentation khri>
khri start <utility khri>
A little bit more skill and it's just one command. You won't lock the skills or anything doing this, but it's easily enough to get you from circle to circle while almost completely ignoring any real effort.
>>Here is what happened, every few minutes, in test:
If you are going to hide to put khri up as best you can, aren't you going to end up in hiding long enough to out wait the penalty from retreating one time? I really can't take this sort of feedback seriously if your testing doesn't even attempt to mitigate a downside.
>>Was I not supposed to test and share my struggles here? I suspected there wasn't enough data for this circle range so I contributed my experience--it was a miserable experience and that's not something you want to hear, I'm sure, but... it still sucked.
I am aware that the first day of testing and release will be tough for everyone.
>>I haven't demanded a change to the reduced khri durations my character now has (prowess is very short at 3 minutes), nor asked to be able to activate more than one in one command (I only mentioned it as a relevant change). I know to expect some new limitations because of the new skillset. But kneeling in combat? Every, say, 3 minutes? I find that absolutely ridiculous.
All of the above are modified by skill. Everything will get better.
>>In this case it's risking damage in combat to kneel and do whatever to put your stuff up - the risk is greater than the reward.
Good, because if the reward is always greater than the risk, the risk becomes unimportant and boring. Now, since absolutely every usage outside of combat skews the reward greater than the risk - I declare balance.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Do you mean to say...
>khri whatever
or
>kneel
khri delay whatever
<wait>
stand
...is such a challenge to typing as to even compare to the complexity of...
>prep sdm 10
charge cambrinth 10
invoke cambrinth
harness 10
cast <self/group/area>
>>Also, kneeling at melee has a very painful balance penalty, and retreating hurts your accuracy and your defensive learning (waiting for things to re-engage you).
Then use your khri without the bonus when you think it's a bad idea to take a knee. It's meant to be a choice that has meaning otherwise it's treads beyond bonus and becomes the norm.
>>Except higher level thieves will never be forced to experience this. And it'll be less "growth" and more "hey, I can finally do that thing I used to do all the time, thank goodness."
They may be beyond needing it to even start a khri, but no one will be grandfathered beyond the usefulness of the sitting bonus. But you know what? Even if someone was, I'd be ok with it, because being higher level on day one should have some perk over someone lower level.
>>This is why it is such a downgrade for these lower circles: Abilities I've been using since at least 15th are now, at 33rd, abilities I'm not supposed to be able to use at all without this extra bonus that was added on.
At your skill level it won't take very long at all to get to the point where you no longer have to kneel to start a tier 2 khri.
>>From my point of view, I don't see why "khri delay" shouldn't let me activate them, even if it takes a minute or two for some khri.
Uhh, ok, so can a magic user then cast any tier spell if they just prep it a little longer? Or should skill only be a gateway for them because they are supposed to be good at it?
>>You're saying I should feel grateful that I can, with painful (in combat) effort, continue to use the skills I've already been using for up to 18 circles. More than half the lifetime of the character. It hurts. It's not like these are skills I've just been neglecting to train. I can't go into this ahead of the game.
No, I'm saying that for folks in your particular circle range, you may need to either spend some time on just tier 1 abilities while in combat, or find a moment to kneel for a split second before starting a tier 2. Once you have a few more ranks aside from the minimum grandfathering then you have some other options.
>>Unless I give up on using khri in combat. And that's miserable in another way. That's my playtesting experience.
You mean give up some khri in combat. There was nothing in your testing that indicated that you couldn't use tier 1 khri to train while in combat with any difficulty.
>>Except if I want to keep playing and circling with that character. I'm aware that "if you don't like it, don't play" is always an option. I'm hoping to give feedback on why it's so unpleasant because I love this game and this guild so much.
I never said if you don't like it don't play. The Supernatural reqs are still there, but they're incredibly minor, and it's two whole commands every few minutes to do minimal training of three skill, so yeah, that pretty much falls under the category of non-issue. Here's the 2 commands:
khri start <augmentation khri>
khri start <utility khri>
A little bit more skill and it's just one command. You won't lock the skills or anything doing this, but it's easily enough to get you from circle to circle while almost completely ignoring any real effort.
>>Here is what happened, every few minutes, in test:
If you are going to hide to put khri up as best you can, aren't you going to end up in hiding long enough to out wait the penalty from retreating one time? I really can't take this sort of feedback seriously if your testing doesn't even attempt to mitigate a downside.
>>Was I not supposed to test and share my struggles here? I suspected there wasn't enough data for this circle range so I contributed my experience--it was a miserable experience and that's not something you want to hear, I'm sure, but... it still sucked.
I am aware that the first day of testing and release will be tough for everyone.
>>I haven't demanded a change to the reduced khri durations my character now has (prowess is very short at 3 minutes), nor asked to be able to activate more than one in one command (I only mentioned it as a relevant change). I know to expect some new limitations because of the new skillset. But kneeling in combat? Every, say, 3 minutes? I find that absolutely ridiculous.
All of the above are modified by skill. Everything will get better.
>>In this case it's risking damage in combat to kneel and do whatever to put your stuff up - the risk is greater than the reward.
Good, because if the reward is always greater than the risk, the risk becomes unimportant and boring. Now, since absolutely every usage outside of combat skews the reward greater than the risk - I declare balance.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
TIGARCLAW
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 07:04 PM CST
>>I love that we have such a great community of long time players, but I want to see new folks, too. :\
What he said. I go out of my way to "welcome nubs" real ones or old return anew by giving them hundreds of plats and/or gear.
This game will never have mass appeal. But there is absolutely no reason why it cant have a strong community of several thousand or so.
What he said. I go out of my way to "welcome nubs" real ones or old return anew by giving them hundreds of plats and/or gear.
This game will never have mass appeal. But there is absolutely no reason why it cant have a strong community of several thousand or so.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 07:09 PM CST
I belive the crux of the issue is that Khri are an important and integral and I'd say central part of combat for thiefs.
Using them is really not something that is optional in combat despite what some folks seem to suggest.
I suppose the other question is being a nub how hard is it to train all Supernatural skills for a thief and are any available in combat pre 10th? 20th? 30th? 50th? that a thief can actualy use and benefit from.
Looking at the list ther are a few. I dont have a nub so cant really test. Has anyone tested stuff at lower levels for thiefs?
Using them is really not something that is optional in combat despite what some folks seem to suggest.
I suppose the other question is being a nub how hard is it to train all Supernatural skills for a thief and are any available in combat pre 10th? 20th? 30th? 50th? that a thief can actualy use and benefit from.
Looking at the list ther are a few. I dont have a nub so cant really test. Has anyone tested stuff at lower levels for thiefs?
ALGOTHI
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 07:42 PM CST
>Using them is really not something that is optional in combat despite what some folks seem to suggest.
Only if you completely ignore those of us that state we dont need them for day to day hunting. If your character is hunting where you absolutely need 4+ buffs, then yes you are going to have some trouble with new khri at release. But that's simply solved by training your supernatural skill and/or adjusting your hunting habits.
>I suppose the other question is being a nub how hard is it to train all Supernatural skills for a thief and are any available in combat pre 10th? 20th? 30th? 50th? that a thief can actualy use and benefit from.
You get Darken, Hasten, and Focus abilities at 5th, and an additional ability every 5 levels afterwards. Right from the get go you can train Inner Magic, Aug and Utility. From there its really based on what abilities you choose. I wager most thieves are going to favor Aug over Utility or Debilitation just based on the breakdown of abilities. A low thief should be able to have a single ability up and running 80% of the time, so training your first few skills shouldn't be very hard. Focused training can be done by taking advantage of the concentration regen boost gained from being prone, so low level thieves could possibly keep 2 or more abilities running. Again this is not going to help much in combat, but pushing Supernaturals early so you don't have to kneel to use them in combat will be a good strategy. Also a thief that focuses on Concentration stats will also be better off then one that doesn't.
As an aside, I never really needed massive boosts between 1-20th levels as at those ranks combat is a lot more forgiving.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Only if you completely ignore those of us that state we dont need them for day to day hunting. If your character is hunting where you absolutely need 4+ buffs, then yes you are going to have some trouble with new khri at release. But that's simply solved by training your supernatural skill and/or adjusting your hunting habits.
>I suppose the other question is being a nub how hard is it to train all Supernatural skills for a thief and are any available in combat pre 10th? 20th? 30th? 50th? that a thief can actualy use and benefit from.
You get Darken, Hasten, and Focus abilities at 5th, and an additional ability every 5 levels afterwards. Right from the get go you can train Inner Magic, Aug and Utility. From there its really based on what abilities you choose. I wager most thieves are going to favor Aug over Utility or Debilitation just based on the breakdown of abilities. A low thief should be able to have a single ability up and running 80% of the time, so training your first few skills shouldn't be very hard. Focused training can be done by taking advantage of the concentration regen boost gained from being prone, so low level thieves could possibly keep 2 or more abilities running. Again this is not going to help much in combat, but pushing Supernaturals early so you don't have to kneel to use them in combat will be a good strategy. Also a thief that focuses on Concentration stats will also be better off then one that doesn't.
As an aside, I never really needed massive boosts between 1-20th levels as at those ranks combat is a lot more forgiving.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
