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>>You get Darken, Hasten, and Focus abilities at 5th, and an additional ability every 5 levels afterwards.
I think you meant something a little different based on your comments that followed, but just to clarify for folks...
You get one khri at 1st circle, then it continues every 5th circle.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
DR-RICINUS
ALGOTHI
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 07:56 PM CST
>You get one khri at 1st circle, then it continues every 5th circle.
Doh, you are right that was my mistake. Thanks for the correction/clarification Ric!
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Doh, you are right that was my mistake. Thanks for the correction/clarification Ric!
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
ORBITAL303
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 07:57 PM CST
I also want to apologize if my posts came across at all as whiny or antagonistic. I appreciate all the time and effort you folks put into coding and redoing all this stuff and I can't imagine how much work it is.
I just know a few people who have tried DR and decided it was too punishing at low levels even with lots of help, and I would just love to see more folks around.
- Starlear -
I just know a few people who have tried DR and decided it was too punishing at low levels even with lots of help, and I would just love to see more folks around.
- Starlear -
DR-RICINUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 08:35 PM CST
>>I just know a few people who have tried DR and decided it was too punishing at low levels even with lots of help, and I would just love to see more folks around.
I can understand this concern, but I don't think the concerns being brought up here translate well to actually starting a new thief under the new system. At circle 1, it's complete cake to train the skills that have been added in, even without the meditate option. Sure, you still have the kneel/delay options that can be used, kneel in particular will have to be used for a little while, but without being completely used to never doing something like that - it's not a big deal. Once you can fire those abilities up standing it suddenly becomes one of those accomplishments that means something to people. If the player actually spends time with khri during the early levels, it's pretty likely they will even be able to start tier 2 khri by the time they get their chance to learn the tier 2 stuff. If the player has just been keeping up with requirements, then it's back to the knee for a bit until they've gotten the skill.
That's how I designed things to work at least. Until folks actually start entering the game brand new under 3.1, the best I can do is wait and see, but I don't see anything so challenging in the methods that would warrant me making any other major changes to these details prior to launch.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
I can understand this concern, but I don't think the concerns being brought up here translate well to actually starting a new thief under the new system. At circle 1, it's complete cake to train the skills that have been added in, even without the meditate option. Sure, you still have the kneel/delay options that can be used, kneel in particular will have to be used for a little while, but without being completely used to never doing something like that - it's not a big deal. Once you can fire those abilities up standing it suddenly becomes one of those accomplishments that means something to people. If the player actually spends time with khri during the early levels, it's pretty likely they will even be able to start tier 2 khri by the time they get their chance to learn the tier 2 stuff. If the player has just been keeping up with requirements, then it's back to the knee for a bit until they've gotten the skill.
That's how I designed things to work at least. Until folks actually start entering the game brand new under 3.1, the best I can do is wait and see, but I don't see anything so challenging in the methods that would warrant me making any other major changes to these details prior to launch.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 09:40 PM CST
>>I also want to apologize if my posts came across at all as whiny or antagonistic. I appreciate all the time and effort you folks put into coding and redoing all this stuff and I can't imagine how much work it is.
I wouldn't say you came across as antagonistic or whiny, but the implicit direction toward minimizing choice and consequence is something I feel the need to take a hardline stance against across multiple threads (and sometimes with other GMs as well). The distinction between making it easier for players ("put a pecking bird on your attack macro and grab a beer") and making it easier for characters (make skillgain less onerous, make combat less lethal, etc) is important to me.
I think DragonRealms needs to be much more accessible and have information ready at hand at the newbie levels, though that is a mammoth project in its own right. I don't think combat, magic, or in this case khri need to be fundamentally simplified and I equate doing so with making the system more boring.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I wouldn't say you came across as antagonistic or whiny, but the implicit direction toward minimizing choice and consequence is something I feel the need to take a hardline stance against across multiple threads (and sometimes with other GMs as well). The distinction between making it easier for players ("put a pecking bird on your attack macro and grab a beer") and making it easier for characters (make skillgain less onerous, make combat less lethal, etc) is important to me.
I think DragonRealms needs to be much more accessible and have information ready at hand at the newbie levels, though that is a mammoth project in its own right. I don't think combat, magic, or in this case khri need to be fundamentally simplified and I equate doing so with making the system more boring.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
YAMCER
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 09:53 PM CST
Can we get a kneel/sit/stand in hiding skill check? I remember when khri messages the room when activated and I would always hide to turn them on. Haveing the ability to do this would help considerably.
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 10:09 PM CST
>>I just know a few people who have tried DR and decided it was too punishing at low levels even with lots of help, and I would just love to see more folks around.>>
It's not too punishing, I literally just started a new char. Seriously new exp is to hard? In my day we used to... Never mind.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
It's not too punishing, I literally just started a new char. Seriously new exp is to hard? In my day we used to... Never mind.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
ORBITAL303
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 11:46 PM CST
>It's not too punishing, I literally just started a new char. Seriously new exp is to hard? In my day we used to... Never mind.
I didn't say new exp was too hard.
I more meant that there's so much intricacies and stuff to learn that the person in question felt completely overwhelmed even with help, made a few less than optimal choices that made the game less mechanically fun to play for them, and had a hard time wrestling with syntax and figuring out what was what mechanically, and decided it wasn't worth the trouble.
>I wouldn't say you came across as antagonistic or whiny, but the implicit direction toward minimizing choice and consequence is something I feel the need to take a hardline stance against across multiple threads (and sometimes with other GMs as well). The distinction between making it easier for players ("put a pecking bird on your attack macro and grab a beer") and making it easier for characters (make skillgain less onerous, make combat less lethal, etc) is important to me.
I suppose I feel more that the choices and consequences should be less about punishing and more about finding the right tool for your preferred niche and dealing with the weaknesses of that choice, rather than what feels like there just being some "This is always the wrong choice to make" style decisions. I don't pretend to understand what kind of crazy math is going on behind the curtain, I am strictly speaking from "feels like" gameplay perspective. I can also just flat out accept that my vision of stuff is not the intended design philosophy and agree to disagree and get back to playing the game though. Anyhow, sorry again if I sounded "RAAAR YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING WRONG", because it was not my intention. When I see something I don't like, I tend to just post and spitball various ideas to get wheels turning. I'm not trying to create some manifesto of demands or anything.
- Starlear -
I didn't say new exp was too hard.
I more meant that there's so much intricacies and stuff to learn that the person in question felt completely overwhelmed even with help, made a few less than optimal choices that made the game less mechanically fun to play for them, and had a hard time wrestling with syntax and figuring out what was what mechanically, and decided it wasn't worth the trouble.
>I wouldn't say you came across as antagonistic or whiny, but the implicit direction toward minimizing choice and consequence is something I feel the need to take a hardline stance against across multiple threads (and sometimes with other GMs as well). The distinction between making it easier for players ("put a pecking bird on your attack macro and grab a beer") and making it easier for characters (make skillgain less onerous, make combat less lethal, etc) is important to me.
I suppose I feel more that the choices and consequences should be less about punishing and more about finding the right tool for your preferred niche and dealing with the weaknesses of that choice, rather than what feels like there just being some "This is always the wrong choice to make" style decisions. I don't pretend to understand what kind of crazy math is going on behind the curtain, I am strictly speaking from "feels like" gameplay perspective. I can also just flat out accept that my vision of stuff is not the intended design philosophy and agree to disagree and get back to playing the game though. Anyhow, sorry again if I sounded "RAAAR YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING WRONG", because it was not my intention. When I see something I don't like, I tend to just post and spitball various ideas to get wheels turning. I'm not trying to create some manifesto of demands or anything.
- Starlear -
DR-KODIUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/03/2014 11:58 PM CST
>>In my day we used to...
TARGET BADGER LEFT EYE, CAST - for 6 hours straight and be lucky to get my TM past pondering before my mind starting going all to hell.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
TARGET BADGER LEFT EYE, CAST - for 6 hours straight and be lucky to get my TM past pondering before my mind starting going all to hell.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
ORBITAL303
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 12:04 AM CST
CLEAR AND TIRED BUT ALERT.
</3
- Starlear -
</3
- Starlear -
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 06:58 AM CST
>>In my day we used to...
TARGET BADGER LEFT EYE, CAST - for 6 hours straight and be lucky to get my TM past pondering before my mind starting going all to hell.>>
oh, and you couldn't use 2 spells from the same spellbook, or the same spell 2x in a row if you were a WM. ;->
and paladins would lay down in crocs to learn armor, and rock trolls turned into CLAW trolls - RUN!!!! - if you took their weapon away.
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
TARGET BADGER LEFT EYE, CAST - for 6 hours straight and be lucky to get my TM past pondering before my mind starting going all to hell.>>
oh, and you couldn't use 2 spells from the same spellbook, or the same spell 2x in a row if you were a WM. ;->
and paladins would lay down in crocs to learn armor, and rock trolls turned into CLAW trolls - RUN!!!! - if you took their weapon away.
<<If I can't cast thunderclap, you can't summon the dark lord of the abyss to devour the flesh of the innocent>>
DR-KODIUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 01:35 PM CST
>>oh, and you couldn't use 2 spells from the same spellbook, or the same spell 2x in a row if you were a WM. ;->
GAH! Totally forgot about that... how in the world did DR ever get off the ground with such unbelievably punishing mechanics?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
GAH! Totally forgot about that... how in the world did DR ever get off the ground with such unbelievably punishing mechanics?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
BLUEFROG99
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 02:00 PM CST
> They may be beyond needing it to even start a khri, but no one will be grandfathered beyond the usefulness of the sitting bonus.
What is the sitting bonus for them? More duration? Or more duration + stronger khri?
> But you know what? Even if someone was, I'd be ok with it, because being higher level on day one should have some perk over someone lower level.
I agree, but... the "perk" is less "I get this new thing" and more "at least my life isn't changing as much as a lower-circle thief's is." Skipping the kneeling phase of their life is not a bonus. It's a "not-penalty." It's neutral. At best, they get to watch smaller characters kneeling all the time and feel lucky they aren't forced to. If they even care to compare their experiences at all.
>>>From my point of view, I don't see why "khri delay" shouldn't let me activate them, even if it takes a minute or two for some khri.
> Uhh, ok, so can a magic user then cast any tier spell if they just prep it a little longer? Or should skill only be a gateway for them because they are supposed to be good at it?
I'm sorry here, I misunderstood your post from last June. (Relevant quote: "There would be two ways to start a Khri while getting a reduction in the difficulty. First, sitting/kneeling/prone would reduce the low end of the difficulty, and starting a Khri with a delay would decrease the high end of the difficulty.") I thought delay was another way to make it easier to use khri, but after talking to some people about the difference between "low end" and "high end" of the difficulty, I see where I was going wrong.
> You mean give up some khri in combat. There was nothing in your testing that indicated that you couldn't use tier 1 khri to train while in combat with any difficulty.
Yes, that's fair. It's more that I mean "give up using the khri I want to use and chose specifically for that purpose," which has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I'll be able to train aug/util in combat, and I'm glad for that. But it's not the way I want to train and not the way I have been training, so it's upsetting.
> If you are going to hide to put khri up as best you can, aren't you going to end up in hiding long enough to out wait the penalty from retreating one time? I really can't take this sort of feedback seriously if your testing doesn't even attempt to mitigate a downside.
I actually did. I just didn't discuss absolutely everything that I tested or asked someone to test for me. It being a test and all, I tested how horrible it was to kneel at melee, and it turns out "very." It left me with an overwhelming impression of it being silly to have to kneel in combat over and over, no matter the range, because it's kneeling in combat at all, which is very ill-advised. Retreat/kneel/khri start whatever is not difficult--but it is not smart for the character. Balance doesn't snap back as soon as you stand, things might be advancing on you unevenly, etc. etc. It's a risk, which would be fine if it were more of a choice for lower circle thieves. My thief can choose to use only the three first-tier khri without kneeling, but what about a more novice thief? I don't know.
For thieves, at some point the sitting bonus becomes a real bonus, and I like the idea of it. But for young thieves, it's not a bonus yet. It's a penalty.
What is the sitting bonus for them? More duration? Or more duration + stronger khri?
> But you know what? Even if someone was, I'd be ok with it, because being higher level on day one should have some perk over someone lower level.
I agree, but... the "perk" is less "I get this new thing" and more "at least my life isn't changing as much as a lower-circle thief's is." Skipping the kneeling phase of their life is not a bonus. It's a "not-penalty." It's neutral. At best, they get to watch smaller characters kneeling all the time and feel lucky they aren't forced to. If they even care to compare their experiences at all.
>>>From my point of view, I don't see why "khri delay" shouldn't let me activate them, even if it takes a minute or two for some khri.
> Uhh, ok, so can a magic user then cast any tier spell if they just prep it a little longer? Or should skill only be a gateway for them because they are supposed to be good at it?
I'm sorry here, I misunderstood your post from last June. (Relevant quote: "There would be two ways to start a Khri while getting a reduction in the difficulty. First, sitting/kneeling/prone would reduce the low end of the difficulty, and starting a Khri with a delay would decrease the high end of the difficulty.") I thought delay was another way to make it easier to use khri, but after talking to some people about the difference between "low end" and "high end" of the difficulty, I see where I was going wrong.
> You mean give up some khri in combat. There was nothing in your testing that indicated that you couldn't use tier 1 khri to train while in combat with any difficulty.
Yes, that's fair. It's more that I mean "give up using the khri I want to use and chose specifically for that purpose," which has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I'll be able to train aug/util in combat, and I'm glad for that. But it's not the way I want to train and not the way I have been training, so it's upsetting.
> If you are going to hide to put khri up as best you can, aren't you going to end up in hiding long enough to out wait the penalty from retreating one time? I really can't take this sort of feedback seriously if your testing doesn't even attempt to mitigate a downside.
I actually did. I just didn't discuss absolutely everything that I tested or asked someone to test for me. It being a test and all, I tested how horrible it was to kneel at melee, and it turns out "very." It left me with an overwhelming impression of it being silly to have to kneel in combat over and over, no matter the range, because it's kneeling in combat at all, which is very ill-advised. Retreat/kneel/khri start whatever is not difficult--but it is not smart for the character. Balance doesn't snap back as soon as you stand, things might be advancing on you unevenly, etc. etc. It's a risk, which would be fine if it were more of a choice for lower circle thieves. My thief can choose to use only the three first-tier khri without kneeling, but what about a more novice thief? I don't know.
For thieves, at some point the sitting bonus becomes a real bonus, and I like the idea of it. But for young thieves, it's not a bonus yet. It's a penalty.
ROBERTDH
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 02:41 PM CST
>>oh, and you couldn't use 2 spells from the same spellbook, or the same spell 2x in a row if you were a WM. ;->
>GAH! Totally forgot about that... how in the world did DR ever get off the ground with such unbelievably punishing mechanics?
It was an early feature, but not a release mechanic -- it got put in after WMs got tier-one spells for each book, and dev felt we needed to be encouraged to use the new variety. I don't recall that idea lasting very long but maybe I just went and played my Moon Mage for awhile.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>GAH! Totally forgot about that... how in the world did DR ever get off the ground with such unbelievably punishing mechanics?
It was an early feature, but not a release mechanic -- it got put in after WMs got tier-one spells for each book, and dev felt we needed to be encouraged to use the new variety. I don't recall that idea lasting very long but maybe I just went and played my Moon Mage for awhile.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
DR-RAESH
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 02:50 PM CST
Fairly sure Moon Mages had that "feature" for awhile too...
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DR-RICINUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 06:45 PM CST
>>What is the sitting bonus for them? More duration? Or more duration + stronger khri?
Both. But since potency caps before duration, at times it would just be duration.
>>I agree, but... the "perk" is less "I get this new thing" and more "at least my life isn't changing as much as a lower-circle thief's is."
The perk I was referring to was the idea of a thief having enough grandfather ranks to no longer benefit from kneeling at all. One of the reasons I planned on the sitting bonus was so that players exactly in your range would still have a way to start more of the khri they were used to on day one, and to give a guild that will always be tertiary in the skillset a way to beef up their usage by doing something that may not always be beneficial.
>>But it's not the way I want to train and not the way I have been training, so it's upsetting.
I understand, but keep in mind the way you were training involved firing up some abilities that trained absolutely nothing. The power of which was based entirely on the stats that made up your derived concentration. A number of these abilities were insanely overpowered. Others had functionality that we phased out for all guilds during X3. This left a need for a lot of stuff to get changed. But it's now a skill based system that actually benefits players that use the abilities rather than those that have higher stats. And on top of that, it will let thieves start making up for their stat deficiency.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Both. But since potency caps before duration, at times it would just be duration.
>>I agree, but... the "perk" is less "I get this new thing" and more "at least my life isn't changing as much as a lower-circle thief's is."
The perk I was referring to was the idea of a thief having enough grandfather ranks to no longer benefit from kneeling at all. One of the reasons I planned on the sitting bonus was so that players exactly in your range would still have a way to start more of the khri they were used to on day one, and to give a guild that will always be tertiary in the skillset a way to beef up their usage by doing something that may not always be beneficial.
>>But it's not the way I want to train and not the way I have been training, so it's upsetting.
I understand, but keep in mind the way you were training involved firing up some abilities that trained absolutely nothing. The power of which was based entirely on the stats that made up your derived concentration. A number of these abilities were insanely overpowered. Others had functionality that we phased out for all guilds during X3. This left a need for a lot of stuff to get changed. But it's now a skill based system that actually benefits players that use the abilities rather than those that have higher stats. And on top of that, it will let thieves start making up for their stat deficiency.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
ORBITAL303
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 06:50 PM CST
>GAH! Totally forgot about that... how in the world did DR ever get off the ground with such unbelievably punishing mechanics?
It was free! Other than Hourly AOL charges.
- Starlear -
It was free! Other than Hourly AOL charges.
- Starlear -
ULIAN
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 09:02 PM CST
>> It was free! Other than Hourly AOL charges.
I paid for it dearly when my mom got that AOL bill. AOL getting unlimited was a great day in my household.
I paid for it dearly when my mom got that AOL bill. AOL getting unlimited was a great day in my household.
DR-RAESH
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 09:14 PM CST
>>I paid for it dearly when my mom got that AOL bill. AOL getting unlimited was a great day in my household.
I know I managed to wrack up a $90 bill one month (Which is an order of magnitude or more smaller then some people I know) just during the times I was visiting my grandparents. They had the internet before we did. Go figure.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
I know I managed to wrack up a $90 bill one month (Which is an order of magnitude or more smaller then some people I know) just during the times I was visiting my grandparents. They had the internet before we did. Go figure.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
GPHOENIXX
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 10:10 PM CST
I just wanted to pop in and say 'thanks' for clarifying the logic behind... well, pretty much all of the decisions that were bothering me. Understanding the logic behind the sit/stand bonuses has really taken away my sense of dread that I once had in preparation for the release.
I would still like to see improved exp gain, but in my testing I can always keep it moving, which is just fine for learning. I might never see it mind lock, but I'll always be learning at an optimal pace whenever I'm actively hunting/shopping/locksmithing.
I haven't spent much time with ambushes, I know that's still a wrinkling point, but overall I say 'bring it on!' I'm ready to get my tertiaries moving faster than my anticipated grandfathered ranks.
I would still like to see improved exp gain, but in my testing I can always keep it moving, which is just fine for learning. I might never see it mind lock, but I'll always be learning at an optimal pace whenever I'm actively hunting/shopping/locksmithing.
I haven't spent much time with ambushes, I know that's still a wrinkling point, but overall I say 'bring it on!' I'm ready to get my tertiaries moving faster than my anticipated grandfathered ranks.
ELRIIC
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 10:43 PM CST
How about instead of kneeling they have to do some series of moves which puts them in RT but doesn't open them up to be murderfaced?
Problem solved?
--
In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.
Problem solved?
--
In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.
DR-RICINUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 10:45 PM CST
>>How about instead of kneeling they have to do some series of moves which puts them in RT but doesn't open them up to be murderfaced?
Khri yoga?
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Khri yoga?
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
ELRIIC
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 10:49 PM CST
Why not?
Ricinius I'm serious, people on the dev team referenced how mages use cambrinth. We don't want to kneel either by the way.
Kneeling in combat in any circumstances for any justification is bad.
--
In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 11:03 PM CST
<<I know I managed to wrack up a $90 bill one month (Which is an order of magnitude or more smaller then some people I know) just during the times I was visiting my grandparents. They had the internet before we did. Go figure.>>
My brothers and I wrote AOL and told them we started an internet club and they sent us 150 4 hour free CDs... True story.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
My brothers and I wrote AOL and told them we started an internet club and they sent us 150 4 hour free CDs... True story.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/04/2014 11:30 PM CST
>>>>How about instead of kneeling they have to do some series of moves which puts them in RT but doesn't open them up to be murderfaced?
>>Khri yoga?
Isn't KHRI DELAY already a thing? It's like that, but without the RT right?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>Khri yoga?
Isn't KHRI DELAY already a thing? It's like that, but without the RT right?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 07:01 AM CST
I read the first few posts and knocked off the GM responses after that (it's 4 pages of stuff, sorry if I wasn't super-interested in what has kinda become mostly whine fests, though it seems like this was a somewhat reasonable one).
My experience is using a couple of thieves 25-50ish. Honestly, I wasn't overwhelmed with the magic, but I could see that it was mostly due to ranks. I think if we had a specific day in test where we could manipulate magic ranks (say grandfathered, then 1.5 and then 2.0x the base) to see what a more realistic 'at level' rank feels like, there would be a lot less worry, because as Ricinus said the system is pretty clearly designed to not cap at level 50.
I think a level 20ish thief will easily have 100+ in the various magic skills, and grandfathering puts a thief nearly triple that at 100 ranks, so we're just getting a mediocre test sample.
I suspect that the kneeling bonus, unless it's changed substantially, will continue to be a contentious bone. Remember that players are invested in power creep, and that any 'easy to use bonus' stops being a bonus and becomes the defacto new normal. So it probably needs to be reworked somehow to slam home that this is A BONUS and not what we should be expecting to function as on a day to day basis.
I will say to the original poster that you seem to be specifically hunting hard-hitting targets like gargs and snowbeasts, and possibly overhunting. I personally barely use khri in normal hunting, and certainly don't 'need' it to not-die. If you die when your buffs fall you're overhunting. If you start getting tagged the instant your buffs fall you're overhunting. This will be remedy-able if you just sort of train some magic ranks, I think.
I still want a deb based/training khri that lasts a long time and is relatively easy (say needs 100 ranks to start); the only skill I really struggled to get lock was deb, because hide/ambush was kinda repetitive and not super fun, and only debuffs one target at a time.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
My experience is using a couple of thieves 25-50ish. Honestly, I wasn't overwhelmed with the magic, but I could see that it was mostly due to ranks. I think if we had a specific day in test where we could manipulate magic ranks (say grandfathered, then 1.5 and then 2.0x the base) to see what a more realistic 'at level' rank feels like, there would be a lot less worry, because as Ricinus said the system is pretty clearly designed to not cap at level 50.
I think a level 20ish thief will easily have 100+ in the various magic skills, and grandfathering puts a thief nearly triple that at 100 ranks, so we're just getting a mediocre test sample.
I suspect that the kneeling bonus, unless it's changed substantially, will continue to be a contentious bone. Remember that players are invested in power creep, and that any 'easy to use bonus' stops being a bonus and becomes the defacto new normal. So it probably needs to be reworked somehow to slam home that this is A BONUS and not what we should be expecting to function as on a day to day basis.
I will say to the original poster that you seem to be specifically hunting hard-hitting targets like gargs and snowbeasts, and possibly overhunting. I personally barely use khri in normal hunting, and certainly don't 'need' it to not-die. If you die when your buffs fall you're overhunting. If you start getting tagged the instant your buffs fall you're overhunting. This will be remedy-able if you just sort of train some magic ranks, I think.
I still want a deb based/training khri that lasts a long time and is relatively easy (say needs 100 ranks to start); the only skill I really struggled to get lock was deb, because hide/ambush was kinda repetitive and not super fun, and only debuffs one target at a time.
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
OLSONM6
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 09:13 AM CST
>My brothers and I wrote AOL and told them we started an internet club and they sent us 150 4 hour free CDs...
I didn't write AOL telling them I started a club an they sent me 150 free CDs...
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I didn't write AOL telling them I started a club an they sent me 150 free CDs...
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
DR-RAESH
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 10:09 AM CST
I use to play a game with AOL, waiting to see if they'd ever give away more hours than you could use - I finally won when I found a 1500 hr/60 day CD.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
2DUMBARSE
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 10:11 AM CST
My concern stems from the fact that ability bonuses have been reworked to scale better until rank caps, which is awesome because it extends goal posts for everyone but also means their effectiveness at lower ranks is diminished somewhat. Combine that with changes that make people get hit more often and training in combat becomes a bigger obstacle at lower ranks than upper ranks.
With the characters I rolled up in 3.0, I recall having trouble with combat in the 30th circle to 50th circle range even with buffs. Training magic was also more tedious than I expected it to be at those ranks since many cyclics aren't castable until ~200 ranks. If it were easy to lock the supernatural skills before going into combat, it would probably lessen the blow but it doesn't sounds like that's the case from what I've read so far.
I've been playing for a long time on-and-off like you guys and I've played characters in every guild to varying levels. I enjoy the community, love the rich evolving novelesque story that facilitates RP better than any other game, appreciate all the dev to make the experience system a better... experience (RIP murky) and everything done to balance the game, etc. Also like you guys, I'm not going anywhere any time soon. I know enough about the game to deal with any new character issues.
That said, it's easy to see that DR appeals to an older audience like many of us with family, jobs and upper ed and stuff, who might not have lots of time to play and are more willing to say, "Screw this" because they can't afford the time to get to know the game like we do and get over those tough hunting gaps or magic training woes. I understand a great game, and this is a great game, needs challenges and milestones, but I feel the game difficulty is a bell curve right now that's skewed a little too far to the left; a character out of the generator is easy, then gets tough to train quickly, then gets easier again mid game until the cakewalk at end game. I feel like challenges or difficulty should increase in a more linear fashion.
Take this with a grain of salt, and it's certainly about more than just khri... I just haven't been able to disprove many of the lower level character claims so far and I'm less inclined to tell those guys, "Deal with it" than the high level guys.
With the characters I rolled up in 3.0, I recall having trouble with combat in the 30th circle to 50th circle range even with buffs. Training magic was also more tedious than I expected it to be at those ranks since many cyclics aren't castable until ~200 ranks. If it were easy to lock the supernatural skills before going into combat, it would probably lessen the blow but it doesn't sounds like that's the case from what I've read so far.
I've been playing for a long time on-and-off like you guys and I've played characters in every guild to varying levels. I enjoy the community, love the rich evolving novelesque story that facilitates RP better than any other game, appreciate all the dev to make the experience system a better... experience (RIP murky) and everything done to balance the game, etc. Also like you guys, I'm not going anywhere any time soon. I know enough about the game to deal with any new character issues.
That said, it's easy to see that DR appeals to an older audience like many of us with family, jobs and upper ed and stuff, who might not have lots of time to play and are more willing to say, "Screw this" because they can't afford the time to get to know the game like we do and get over those tough hunting gaps or magic training woes. I understand a great game, and this is a great game, needs challenges and milestones, but I feel the game difficulty is a bell curve right now that's skewed a little too far to the left; a character out of the generator is easy, then gets tough to train quickly, then gets easier again mid game until the cakewalk at end game. I feel like challenges or difficulty should increase in a more linear fashion.
Take this with a grain of salt, and it's certainly about more than just khri... I just haven't been able to disprove many of the lower level character claims so far and I'm less inclined to tell those guys, "Deal with it" than the high level guys.
ORBITAL303
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 10:52 AM CST
Excellent post, Warb.
- Starlear -
- Starlear -
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 11:07 AM CST
Folks are most likely experiencing hardships because of the fact that grandfathered ranks are a bit lower than what most people tend to have as far as magic ranks are concerned. They are easy to train, terts especially end up having a bit more than their min reqs. Thus is the crappiness of grandfathering but its what most guilds have went through at some point and fair. It won't take long to train those skills up after it goes live anyway.
TIGARCLAW
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 06:42 PM CST
>>Khri yoga?
LOL Do it!
LOL Do it!
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 08:20 PM CST
>With the characters I rolled up in 3.0, I recall having trouble with combat in the 30th circle to 50th circle range even with buffs. Training magic was also more tedious than I expected it to be at those ranks since many cyclics aren't castable until ~200 ranks. If it were easy to lock the supernatural skills before going into combat, it would probably lessen the blow but it doesn't sounds like that's the case from what I've read so far.
What rank point is that, since you didn't specify guild? I haven't really had any significant problem up through quartz gargs, but if I hadn't been willing to pay premium for it, that post-swain point would have sucked, and that's roughly 50ish.
>Unlike loggrim i wont apologize for my posts as i'm beginning to despise the way thieves are going.
Just a warning that being aggressive and beligerant and just pissing on the GMs isn't going to help get dev work done. It's going to have the opposite effect, where the GMs will just put in the bare bones minimal to get it 'functional' and move on because dealing with thieves is such an exhausting, combatative, negative, unpleasant, experience, and they never appreciate what you do.
You're fine expressing the same ideas (i.e. that it doesn't work) but doing it calmly and politely will go much further than standing up and going 'I AM MAD LOOK AT ME!!!!'
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
What rank point is that, since you didn't specify guild? I haven't really had any significant problem up through quartz gargs, but if I hadn't been willing to pay premium for it, that post-swain point would have sucked, and that's roughly 50ish.
>Unlike loggrim i wont apologize for my posts as i'm beginning to despise the way thieves are going.
Just a warning that being aggressive and beligerant and just pissing on the GMs isn't going to help get dev work done. It's going to have the opposite effect, where the GMs will just put in the bare bones minimal to get it 'functional' and move on because dealing with thieves is such an exhausting, combatative, negative, unpleasant, experience, and they never appreciate what you do.
You're fine expressing the same ideas (i.e. that it doesn't work) but doing it calmly and politely will go much further than standing up and going 'I AM MAD LOOK AT ME!!!!'
I'm a badger, I be badgerin'
TALBOT3
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 08:52 PM CST
I jumped in test to give it a try and pretty much had the same thoughts as loggrim. One thing I noticed is that khri help states the cooldown is between 5 seconds and 3 minutes depending on skill and khri tier. Is anyone noticing 5 second or anything close to that short for tier 1 khri? With 630s IM and 520s aug, focus cooldown was much much longer than 5 seconds...maybe something isn't working right?
DR-RICINUS
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/05/2014 09:21 PM CST
>>maybe something isn't working right?
Ah yeah, the tier stuff isn't being accounted for in the cooldowns. I'll have that fixed in a bit.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
Ah yeah, the tier stuff isn't being accounted for in the cooldowns. I'll have that fixed in a bit.
FGM Ricinus
Logistics Lead
Magic, Sentients Team Member
Cleric Advocate
2DUMBARSE
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/06/2014 09:36 AM CST
>What rank point is that, since you didn't specify guild? I haven't really had any significant problem up through quartz gargs, but if I hadn't been willing to pay premium for it, that post-swain point would have sucked, and that's roughly 50ish.
Ahh, sorry, I was trying not to derail the thread any more.
Since 3.0 rolled out, I've played a low level warmie, ranger and trader and I was referring to a range that begins not too long after beisswurms cap. I don't remember much about the ranger since I didn't play him very long. Trader has... ~90-110 in combats, chain armor (fairly hindered), 30 in stam and 20+ in other combat stats. Warmie had around 160s or thereabouts. My most recent experience is with the trader.
I recall many of the things I tried either didn't move skills very well and/or would land hard hits frequently, even with buffs, sometimes leading to stun, no-retreat, death. Most recently, I planned to try blight bats but got stuck in the river to Boar Clan, so I just logged off.
Ahh, sorry, I was trying not to derail the thread any more.
Since 3.0 rolled out, I've played a low level warmie, ranger and trader and I was referring to a range that begins not too long after beisswurms cap. I don't remember much about the ranger since I didn't play him very long. Trader has... ~90-110 in combats, chain armor (fairly hindered), 30 in stam and 20+ in other combat stats. Warmie had around 160s or thereabouts. My most recent experience is with the trader.
I recall many of the things I tried either didn't move skills very well and/or would land hard hits frequently, even with buffs, sometimes leading to stun, no-retreat, death. Most recently, I planned to try blight bats but got stuck in the river to Boar Clan, so I just logged off.
VAGELO
Re: Activating and maintaining khri at lower circles
02/06/2014 11:40 AM CST
>I recall many of the things I tried either didn't move skills very well and/or would land hard hits frequently, even with buffs, sometimes leading to stun, no-retreat, death. Most recently, I planned to try blight bats but got stuck in the river to Boar Clan, so I just logged off.
I just recently tested my lowest Bard, lowest Paladin, and lowest Cleric which are all around beisswurm cap, and blood wolves treated me well after. Was slightly painful sometimes depending on armor hindrance and specific skills/buffs. Spawn was real good though. Wasn't sure where to take them after wolves, and don't play them often, but you might want to try there. Might be able to do creepers/vines after. Haven't tested them since 3.0 hit.
-Master Ndin
