Been a few hours and no response. Guess I get to go first....

I don't get it. I don't understand how TDPs are a problem. Like I get that you all think the train it all mindset of players is bad. The thing is the TDPs/stats you gain from doing that are...kinda meaningless right? Like I couldn't tell you in PvE what the difference between 30 and 60 agility is. I can't feel any change I'm sure there is some change, but I've never notice it. For PvP until you are a monster pushing stats way above 100 SvS is just silly the way it's currently designed. You have to be badly out classes for a spell to be resisted. Train it all is a perception problem among players not a real system problem. And even then if it is a system problem why not build an incentive for training less things at once like oh I don't know bigger drain pulses when training less skills? Why do we have to take away a fundamental aspect of the game to have that in the form of option 2?

I've heard there are balance issues with the wide swing on stats. I say that's made up nonsense. Balance is pretty arbitrary and frankly DR has never really been all that balanced. Games don't need to be balanced to be fun. And not to sound too harsh but if it's hard to get to whatever arbitrary balance state you have that's on the GMs. The solution shouldn't be coming from the skin of players.

Lets talk for a minute about the base assumption. The base assumption is that the game encourages and strongly incentives training everything and that's bad. I'd say the GMs are the ones that encourage training everything. GMs released the almanac. GMs build the systems that let me train 40 skills at once. GMs are the ones that suddenly get IDEAS!(tm) that can radically change how you'd want to build your character. Training wide is hedging against future at whim GM system changes. Anyone remember when shield wasn't so good or as easy to train? I 'member.

Specifically the two options proposed are mistakes.

Option 1 is lifted from GS. GS has one of the worst stat systems I've ever seen. Why are we suggesting systems that push people into an out of game website or tool to build their characters? I get that a lot of the old stuff just works that way, but it's bad game design. Stop building things make me open a wiki or some tool on another site. It's bad.

Option 2 completely does away with any of the time your most loyal players have spent in your game. Its you telling those players they misspent their time and are wrong for having done so. No reward you create to spend the old TDPs on will make up for that. It's a solid slap in the face for a so called problem of your own making. This is how you fix a new system that's been out a short amount of time. Not a fundamental aspect that's gone virtually unchanged since the day the game opened.

This is a horrible mistake. If Simu wants to "get it right" then they should abandon this project. Whatever it is you are trying to do it will fail. You will not make stats more engaging or meaningful(I can think of like one game that has engaging or meaningful stat choices). You will not get people out of the train it all mindset. You will not make balancing any easier on yourselves. I honestly don't know why you would want to touch the third rail of DR for such little gain and a ton of risk.

TDPs and stats are a core aspect to how players build their characters. How they've been building those characters for two decades. I'll tell you GMs a secret...Players really don't like it when you take away what they've built. And I know you are going to go on and post something like how it wont really change that much or something else calm and rational. But players build emotional connections to the characters they build. The reactions are going to be emotional not rational but just as valid. It's not unsimilar to how some players feel about PvP except with PvP I can take steps to minimize it or lobby for policy changes. But with things like this GMs are the bulldozers coming to knock down the house I spent a lot of time to build. Players can't minimize the damage you do the their house, they just have to eat it or walk away and try to build somewhere else.

Of course this post is mostly shouting into the void. You have your idea and the framework of a plan. There is no turning the car around and no convincing you this is a mistake. Best of luck with whatever you decided on. You are really, really going to need it.

<<Since this topic is waaaaay more likely to blow up than the others, please post feedback in "Abilities, Skills, and Magic > The Experience System".>>

You're not the boss of me! Also I hate the forums and messing around trying to find the correct place to post when there's nothing there is a pain. If the mods would rather it somewhere else or it starts being a conversation somewhere else then hopefully the mods will move it over to where it needs to be.

~Nexty the bitter, breaker of dreams, ruiner of fun, cynic of renown, and mother of pessimism.

Posts about proposed changes to TDPs have been moved here from Discussions with DragonRealms Staff and Players \ General Discussions and Discussions with DragonRealms Staff and Players \ Microtrans. We ask that you please use this board so that the discussion is all in one place (that being the same place where most prior TDP threads are located).

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GM Cordulia

I don't understand the full scope of "the stats are a problem". Honestly I don't feel that the present system is all that bad, but I'm open to having my mind changed if the GMs can fill us in a little on how the current state is a problem worth of this massive scale of upheaval.

>Option 2: TDPs remain, but only the highest skill(s) in each skillset counts for TDPs. TDP gain will be scaled and multiplied with that in mind.
If we're voting and we only have two options, I guess I like option 2 best. I want to be able to "overcome" race penalties with training, and I don't want some 25 year old idea of "Rangers are just Ranged" affecting the way I gain stats.

Certainly the completionist in me would really be sad if I couldn't hit 100 in all stats by 200th circle. I don't care much about training past that point and I think it would be neat to have "other things" to spend TDPs on. I've always trained Hanryu as a generalist, and given how often skills fall in and out of "useful", I will continue to train broadly because you never know when skill X is going to get its day in the sun.

Now to settle in with a cup of coffee and read through these player posts! Thank you very much for posting the Roundups Mazrian, I do hope we get some Red-Name interaction in this thread also.

~Hunter Hanryu
>Everything Rangers have is just a lame version of something cool.~Morkim

Here's a post by GM Socharis from 2012:

So to recap, the method in Prime today gives you one TDP for every 200 ranks earned - If you rank from 199 to 200, you'd gain one TDP. The original proposed system for DR3 had it so that you'd gain one TDP for every 125 ranks earned for the top 3 skills in your primary skillset, top 3 skills in each secondary skillset, and top 3 tertiary skills altogether, and one TDP every 400 ranks of every other skill. The goal behind this proposed system was to allow people with less time to still gain TDPs at a reasonable rate, even if they couldn't train 20 skills at once.

However, after a lot of thinking, I've come to the conclusion that this won't really make things better for the 'part timers', as it were. The full timers will simply adapt their training mechanisms to optimize TDP gain, and will still scream ahead (perhaps faster!) of anybody that can't dedicate the time or training to get all of the skills moving. Additionally, there were a lot of people that were getting REALLY hosed with this model - Codiax was losing over ten thousand TDPs, some people (especially mages) were gaining a whole ton of them. After grandfathering, the average increase in TDPs was 50%.

So, I ran some models with new skills (including grandfathering) using the old "one TDP per 200 ranks" system, and it turned out that this punished people the least (on average), bonused people the least, and was by FAR the simplest to code. On average, people were gaining 1.5% TDPs, with an average of ~250. Some people are still gaining ridiculous numbers of TDPs, but it's far fewer, and the bell curve is very pleasing.

So, what do we do about trying to make the game a little more balanced for people that don't have the time to train everything, all the time? This brings me to something I've been tossing around, which will help level the playing field and also solve some other problems we've had. Basically, I'm looking at giving bonus drain rate if you're draining a few skills, and slowing the drain rate if you're draining many skills. This basically emulates the notion of cramming a handful of important skills vs trying to learn a whole bunch of things at once. Discipline will probably alleviate this somewhat.

Note that you won't be LOSING experience - It'll just take longer to absorb the experience you've earned in some cases.

It seems he had done some actual modeling and testing on this topic, and from what I can see the discussion had been somewhat ongoing for at least two years prior to that. I hope any new TDP plan will have similar supporting analysis, and isn't just a knee-jerk reaction to the status quo. We all know it's suboptimal, but the need to do something , if that something isn't thoroughly tested and reasoned, could really make things worse.

I've seen suggestions in discord for TDPs being more like LTBs without a real in-game impact, and that scheme really rubs me the wrong way. It's also pretty ridiculous that so many min-maxers are training every single skill in the game, but is the detriment really worth the potential unintended consequences this sort of shake up will inevitably have?

In sum, I'm not opposed to a change, but if we're going to do it, let's make sure we do it thoughtfully and backed up by lots and lots of data.

Qihhth

>>BRHODES Post

+1

I think both options are a huge mistake. People will quit over this.

I will also add that people train everything because skills have fallen in and out of favor so people have learned that it’s better to be prepared. Changing TDPs won’t change this. Anyone remember Shield change? What about the Heavy Plate Warmies that relied on the YS spell to get by. Training wide insulated you from getting burned later and having to backtrain.

Things should be balanced based off the TDPs someone would have if they had the minimum skills required for a given level. If you want to make a level 100 mob, that mob should have stats akin to what a character would have that circled with the minimum reqs. Anyone who has overtrained and has extra stats has done so for a reason - to be extra beefy in combat and ahead of the bell curve. If they murder that mob without a challenge, kudos to them because they chose to go out of their way to train an extra stout character for their given level and I don’t see that as a reason for this massive upheaval. If a guild leader has said the XYZ skills is enough to attain circle 50/100/150, mobs should be designed with that same mindset and anyone ahead of the curve is just ahead of the curve.

Lastly, I will say that DR is a great game because of the amazing flexibility it affords it’s players and making a change like this only takes away from that.

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-Nate

>I think both options are a huge mistake. People will quit over this.

I guess the question is what do more people quit over? Those losing the TDPs they had to grind for, or those that never really get engaged because the grind to stay "optimized" is literally insane?

Honestly, I think its still way to early to panic without any sort of actual data on how much this will impact us. I think it will benefit everyone if we could get a projection from the Simu side on where stat levels are planned to be.

>Lastly, I will say that DR is a great game because of the amazing flexibility it affords it’s players and making a change like this only takes away from that.

Is it really flexible? Does removing the sole reason most people train wide make it inflexible? If skill training straight up stopped TDP generation, there is nothing stopping someone for training as many skills as they want. The choice is still there.

I think the overall meta right now is really odd. The majority of people train an insane number of skills not because they want those skills or think that have any value, they train them because they want better stats. I just dont see how the status quo is any good for the game.

Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

So, as far as design intent goes, our major goal atm is eliminating the strong incentivzation toward training all skills. If you like to train all skills you could certainly continue to do so, but we do not wish that to continue to be the assumed practice for competitive advancement in the game. If a skill is unfun or unrewarding to learn, it should be targeted and fixed rather than simply papered over with a grind incentive that many of you have at one time or another stated to resent anyway.

Runaway stat growth is something I personally consider problematic but I am not married to fixing it in the near-term future. There are alternative ways to address the homogenity of stats that we can work on down the road if need be.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

Maz “tdp changes are happening, deal with it”

Armifer “I’m not married to change it”

So what is it? Can you guys get on the same page before posting?

Amazing the disconnect... probably why PLAYERS shouldn’t be posting about changes.....

I'd say keep the TDPs and the systems the same but offer a meaningful re-mort option.

I like how this game rewards the grind and personally I enjoy chasing TDPs.

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Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:

http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

>>So basically a system where you can’t reach current tdp potential?

So, break the issue into two bits. "How you get stats?" and "How many stats do you get?"

The first is changing.
The second one might change but not necessarily.

>>Good luck.

Godspeed.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

As an early warning, please follow the Forum Policies, making sure to post kindly and maintain a respectful, civil tone tone. I know how passionate we all feel about this subject, and it needs lots of discussion.

But posts that are impolite will be hidden.

Helje
DragonRealms Senior Board Moderator

There was a time when this would have really bothered me, but I've very much "meh" on the whole thing.

I've got a 13 year old character who has trained a lot of skills. My reason to train these wasn't for tdps, it was part boredom, part roleplay around location, and part because things seem to change every few years, and I didn't want to be the guy who had to spend two years backtraining something because a GM decided to change a system. (see plate armor for tert guilds).
I also have two characters that train quite minimal. They hunt a little, craft a little, but in general they are working the basics they need to stay alive and circle.

The difference I find between these is nothing - Neither miss out on anything through not having the skills or the stats, because there is no actual reason to have either in DR anymore. We don't get events where you need to be high level, or need the extra power from that $200 sword.
I'm quite sure that whatever system is in place for TDPs, each time I login, I'll still find no real deep involvement, and I'll still do the same training routines I did before, so "meh".

My reason for posting is to say that I'm against this change - What I'd rather see is development into areas I can get involved in, and choose to do rather than train, in which case TDP systems don't matter at all.

As someone above said, the direction seems to have already been chosen, much like the decision to develop a dungeon game I can play when I hit 150th circle? Honestly, I subscribe to Dragonrealms for it's roleplay scope, there are hundreds of games on my phone that let me build a fortress and defend it. I fear with everything being proposed recently, that we've completely lost focus on why people subscribe to this game, which is roleplay, interaction, friendships, the numbers only matter when there is nothing else to do.

>Having a player assemble and post this information is incredibly tacky. Nothing against Mazrian, and a big thank you to him for doing it, but why on earth this wasn't assembled and posted by somebody on staff is beyond me.

SimuCon news has always been first presented by the players who attended. A comment from Discord by another player earlier hit the nail on the head: "... it's industry standard in both software and gaming specifically to announce upcoming changes/projects at a convention or conference and then not say anything more until marketing for those projects starts. Some fans go to the conferences expressly to report about what's announced. It's far from inappropriate, it's industry standard."


>Lyneya even bowed out of discord right after this was all posted after responding to some of the backlash by saying that these were all just "ideas" then immediately deleting her message.

"Lyneya Last Monday at 5:03 PM
I dunno! It's down the road. We're in the infancy of this idea. Brainstorm phase. This is YEARS of work, but again -- the content we work on between now and then will be pieces that are useable in other places" I chose to not repeat myself.


>She then opted to inform us that she wasn't willing to engage in a "heated discussion" over the topic when pushed for clarification

"Lyneya Yesterday at 10:09 PM
Forums is a great place for this discussion. I don’t want to get into a heated debate at this hour. Please please post your constructive feedback and we will chat on that subject there."

> If you don't have the confidence in your own ideas to have a productive discussion about them, maybe they aren't good ideas.

And yet, here we are discussing them. We're working on compiling some information and past forums discussions to further facilitate that discussion. Stay tuned! It's a big topic and we expect to have a lot of conversation before any final decisions are made.


~ L

fixing the TDP system excites me more than any other proposed change

we could really create a more fair game with TDPs only gained from Circling + top skill in each skillset. or something similar


can't wait!!

<<As far as only high level pvpers not agreeing with this, I disagree

Your reading comprehension needs some work.

<<So far it looks predominantly to be high level pvpers most strongly against this.

Only != predominantly NOR most strongly.

<<
SimuCon news has always been first presented by the players who attended. A comment from Discord by another player earlier hit the nail on the head: "... it's industry standard in both software and gaming specifically to announce upcoming changes/projects at a convention or conference and then not say anything more until marketing for those projects starts. Some fans go to the conferences expressly to report about what's announced. It's far from inappropriate, it's industry standard."
>>

When did we start marketing changes before they happen? Other industry events have press covering them. And press packets. And you know are organizing and on top of things.

<<So far it looks predominantly to be high level pvpers most strongly against this. This makes sense, but they aren't the only voice.>>

I don't have a high level character anymore and I don't pvp. It still a bad change that should be scrapped. But yes higher level people would be against it more as they are the ones with the most to lose.

<<
GMs have recently been focused on emphasizing PvE group play and cooperation as the direction DR should be taking. Making stats less easy to come by incentivizes working with others to hunt together or provide each other with buffs.>>

I don't mean to pick on you with this response. But I've seen a small number of players post similar things on the discord.

This is magical thinking. Changing TDPs is just changing TDPs. This isn't some cure all for DR. Hoping some other system gets changed or even fixed to work within a new stat paradigm is hopes and dreams. Maybe it will happen maybe not. Maybe it will take 10 years maybe it will happen the day after. The GMs have 2 decades of unfinished, broken, or never started promised projects. Some of which are things they themselves broke or turned off in the hopes of one day getting to fix.

I'm judging the change to TDPs as itself not based on some flight of fancy systems that are unlikely to ever come out.

What I would like to know is what justification the GMs have for making this change. What justifies taking the time and effort some of the most loyal customers have and tossing it aside? Because all I've seen is magical thinking on the parts of a few players and the GMs themselves that this solves anything. Seems like a lot of risk for very little gain.

~Nexty

<<This is magical thinking. Changing TDPs is just changing TDPs. This isn't some cure all for DR. Hoping some other system gets changed or even fixed to work within a new stat paradigm is hopes and dreams. Maybe it will happen maybe not. Maybe it will take 10 years maybe it will happen the day after. The GMs have 2 decades of unfinished, broken, or never started promised projects. Some of which are things they themselves broke or turned off in the hopes of one day getting to fix.

Oh, I wasn't saying that they're equivalent or that this is some magical fix to change how DR plays. I'm just pointing out this TDP change fits with the current view of GMs in other changes they've made or want to make. I.e. I'm just making the observation that this change isn't a surprise to me given their stated goals. I'm honestly more surprised that something like this hasn't actually happened yet, since it's been talked about for nigh on 10 years. Stats and stat contests have been the red-headed step child of balance and development in DR for ever. Whether this is the right fix or not is up for debate, but I definitely think something needs to change.

<<Other industry events have press covering them. And press packets. And you know are organizing and on top of things.

Other industry events aren't volunteer based, but this is all a meaningless tangent that in the end is just coming across as ad hominem attacks on GMs for some perceived behavior. Simucon information has always been shared first by players posting details of workshops and meetings. Whether Mazrian was asked to post or not didn't even cross my mind, I just assumed that he did it because he wanted to share what he learned like people have always done in the past. People are reading far too much into this in their knee-jerk anger.

no forum edit buuuut.

Yeah, after a literal 30 hour trip home I was a little loopy but even at that point, no problem, I was fine with that request and I would have said yes regardless. It just took a couple of days for me to get myself together and do it.

Again, I really do appreciate that you guys have my back.

Mazrian

Going to chime in briefly, i don't like either option being presented and am waiting on a GM to post thoughts on why this the current state is "bad" because i reject the hypothesis. no one has to train everything, as was already eloquently posted, many of us did so to mitigate sudden and unnecessary changes that sometimes take place

i did enjoy getting additional TDPs but the main reason i trained wide is to mitigate the impact of system changes in the future, trained all trowns in case one suddenly got nerfed when someone perceived a problem with it. I reject the assumption that most people trained for TDPs, where is your evidence for this?

SIMU needs to think long and hard about every stat contest in the game and adjust all those things BEFORE screwing with TDP generation, not like the hobbled garbage of a barrier system that we currently gutted but have not since fixed.

This is going to be a game changer for me and not in the way of changing my play style.

Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR

Let me start with I now believe that someone over there has it in for people who play commoners, trying to rid the world of the low-life common masses. Like me.

The proposed changes to TDPs system, specifically the so called "option 1" making TDPs only gained via circles is a horrible idea plain and simple. One you are pretty much incentiving people to do the bare minimum and get the same rewards as someone who put the time in to train equally and evenly. Two you are unreasonably punishing those of us who WANT to play a Commoner and EVEN more so punishing people who don't like circling by running to town etc. As with all previous major changes to the system there likely will be a stats wipe.. so as for someone who doesn't have a circle they would end up with base stats forever.. even with over 15k ranks. Like me.
(Role)Playing as a commoner/peasant is already hobbled quite extreme, such as cant embroider (circle 5 requirement), guards don't allow to access to certain areas (Theren Keep drawbridge), can't "hold" players to make a group, already don't gain TDPs from circling (which I accept and work even harder to get TDPs), no access to the magic systems even with magic skill ranks already learned (which is another issue for another thread), plus many others.
If the idea is the level the playing field and make the system more "fair" (which honestly those you are trying to level it won't matter cause they are already maxed anyways) the only real choice is to leave skill based TDPs in the equation and leave any circle requirements out (aside from gaining EXTRA ones from it, but not being required)

So in closing, be kind to those less fortunate, those who haven't found their way because one doesn't exist.

PS Add a microtrans way for commoners to learn magic ability. Even internal quest to find that shady mage who'd do anything for money. Even teach people to use basic scrolls and runes.