Let us also acknowledge that perception is basically free and the exp caps for perception are extended beyond what stealth teaches to on every single mob in game.

Can anyone defend that with a straight face?

No word yet GMs? On when we can expect the most broken ability in game to get removed?

Do I need to post stats to show why this ability is broken like I did when it was released something like 10 years ago?

>I don't feel particularly strongly about WATCH but the whole stealth system is still wonky, mostly in ways that favor stealth, like POINT having roundtime. The whole system could use a redesign from ground level.

I echo this sentiment.

>Do I need to post stats to show why this ability is broken like I did when it was released something like 10 years ago?

It may help. Watch was nerfed pretty heavily with one of the last major updates. I rarely even used it before the nerf as a matter of principle. Now, however, at 1k+ skill and even a little sooner, I don't notice watch doing much of anything against a stealthy who knows what s/he's doing.

I agree that watch is a bandage solution, but I think it's a solution to a different problem. I don't think stealth guilds were intended to be able to attack from hiding with impunity. I'd rather stealth attacks give the target (and only the target) a healthy bonus to perception for some duration after a stealth attack (e.g. 20/30 seconds) than what we have now.

>I'd rather stealth attacks give the target (and only the target) a healthy bonus to perception for some duration after a stealth attack (e.g. 20/30 seconds) than what we have now.


Not sure if this is a typo, but if not, why a bonus to perception?

It wasn't a typo...

Remember stealth is the primary tool of survival primes for offensive output. On that note, what if weapon or TM use also had somekind of accuracy or damaged reduction built into its sustained use? I.e., the target was getting familiar with what was coming and more likely to avoid it.

Pretty silly huh.

Stealth needs work, but not in the form of nerfs. It needs an expanding to bring skin to tactics.

The problem is without stealth Rangers and Thieves are pretty nerftastic.

You take watch away they become too good again, though. It's a complex problem. I agree the entire stealth system needs a rewrite and I also agree watch is probably one of the worst commands ever implemented on this mud. I command with no skill checks or requirements that nerfs a guilds primary advantage so hard is pretty ridiculous.

>>The best suggestion I've heard is a stacking bonus to perception every time you're attacked from hiding that resets after 30ish seconds. It could even change to a bonus to perception whenever something you're engaged with hides on you so you don't have people hiding, moving into melee, unhiding attacking, and rehiding to avoid the person getting the bonus.

It's worth trying I guess. I don't really know. You take a guild like Rangers and they actually need to be able to stay hidden to have a chance. They just can't stack up to the damage that a warrior mage or cleric can output. You just can't take TM spells to the face. Bows not being what they used to be doesn't help either. Weapon damage in general is just bad now.

>The best suggestion I've heard is a stacking bonus to perception every time you're attacked from hiding that resets after 30ish seconds. It could even change to a bonus to perception whenever something you're engaged with hides on you so you don't have people hiding, moving into melee, unhiding attacking, and rehiding to avoid the person getting the bonus.

That is not a good suggestion for the same reason applying the same notion to TM or Weapons is a bad idea. Stealth in Dragonrealms is identical to Stealth in other MMOs, wherein the player goes invisible, and while still being vulnerable to AoE, suddenly attacks from invisibility. Rinse, repeat. There are ALREADY a ton of guild specific solutions in DR for dealing with people who are invisible - AoE will hit anyone engaged, and that's fine and indeed, working as intended. I don't understand why in addition to that, all guilds get access to WATCH, which is effectively just a nerf to Stealth.

Personally, I find that a pretty boring approach to Stealth, and if the GMs decide to not expand Stealth, I hope they at least try and balance WATCH, by giving all guilds access to some kind of anti-TM, anti-physical attacks, and anti-tactics commands that require nothing whatsoever on the defenders part to use.

>>Held large shields. Barrier spells. Two defenses that can be stacked and buffed. Armor.

Apologies if I'm not understanding but are you saying that is what you should use? Those things require training skills to be effective with them. Watch does not. That is the primary complaint here.

>>Stealth in Dragonrealms is identical to Stealth in other MMOs

That statement is pretty inaccurate. Stealth detection isn't determined/broken by proximity (common in other MMOs), also most MMOs don't let you re-enter stealth while engaged (or if they do it's on a timed ability).

Also not everyone has easy access to AoE.

I agree that WATCH should go, and also that Stealth caps for mobs should match Perc caps (the disparity is laughable) but you also shouldn't be able to spam backstab;hide on players.

<<I hope they at least try and balance WATCH, by giving all guilds access to some kind of anti-TM, anti-physical attacks, and anti-tactics commands that require nothing whatsoever on the defenders part to use.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on it.

I think people would understand if they implemented something like....

BARRIER COMMAND - Instantly reduces opponents TM spell after first cast. No skill/stat contest involved. Anyone can use it. Same cool down as watch.

I'm sure they would just love that and think it was a fair command, lol.

>Held large shields

You know as well as I do that these do not affect all guilds equally.

>Barrier spells.

Please pay attention to the part where I noted 'with no effect on the user'. Barrier spells A ) are not available to all guilds, and B ) require some effort on the user.

> Armor.

See the issue with shields.

I think you failed to understand my point - the point is WATCH is an action that has ZERO negative impact on the user, and strongly negatively impacts the person trying to use Stealth. There is no equivalent ability in game for TM, Weapons, or Tactics (or Armors!).

>How many of those other games have timers connected to how often you can go back to hiding? My experience is that there's normally an outright cooldown period where you can't hide again at all.

>0, but certainly not all? I can name a handful of games that treat Stealth exactly like it operates in DR, namely it causes the user to simply vanish. Even if there's a CD though, I don't think I've ever seen it such that the CD is longer than a couple of seconds, when the fight most certainly lasts up to multiple minutes.

>That statement is pretty inaccurate. Stealth detection isn't determined/broken by proximity (common in other MMOs), also most MMOs don't let you re-enter stealth while engaged (or if they do it's on a timed ability).

Stealth is absolutely determined by proximity - it is harder to hide on someone at melee than at missile, and many many MMOs absolutely allow you to re-enter stealth whilst engaged, and those that have a CD, as I just mentioned, typically have a very very short CD.

>I agree that WATCH should go, and also that Stealth caps for mobs should match Perc caps (the disparity is laughable) but you also shouldn't be able to spam backstab;hide on players.

I agree! I think Stealth is rather boring as implemented in DR, but the solution is not to provide everyone with a rank-less tool nullifying it. MUs have AoEs which pit their TM/Debil against all engaged. That's a perfectly valid solution. Barbs have Whirlwind and Slash the Shadows and Earthquake (I have indeed used all three of those to pull people from hiding). Frankly, many guilds already have tools in place to deal with Stealth, so I don't understand the purpose of WATCH other than to indicate Stealth shouldn't be used in PvP?

>>Frankly, many guilds already have tools in place to deal with Stealth, so I don't understand the purpose of WATCH other than to indicate Stealth shouldn't be used in PvP?

Close. Its intention is that the stealth system should punish people who don't act in a stealthy manner.

That people feel dependent on multi-backstabbing in PvP is either a problem with their expectations, a problem with base weapon damage, or both. Backstab gets a pass for its ridiculous damage mods for being an alpha strike, the whole stealth-damage-paradigm just sort of becomes a gibbering mess outside (and possibly inside) that.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

>>It routinely takes me from my opponent not being able to see me at all to instantly spotting me when I hide.

It helps to have data in these situations. Is the person on the cusp of being able to spot you pre-watch, and the skill boost of watch pushes them well into the range that would let them see you consistently?

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>I'd love more non-stealth thief tools.

I still dream about a light thrown AoE attack. Xena totally had the right idea.

>>BARRIER COMMAND - Instantly reduces opponents TM spell after first cast. No skill/stat contest involved. Anyone can use it. Same cool down as watch.

Sure, but it gives a massive boost to arcana, and arcana ranks are now used to defend against TM spells. And while someone is prepping a TM spell, you need to make an arcana check to even attack them.

>>Personally, my issue with stealth is more at it's core level. The Blatent Stealth that DR offers frustrates. Playing a survival prime, you're basicly forced to use it as a crutch (lame), and playing non-primes (especially terts), you almost have to assume, and plan around, ALWAYS getting hit first.

Honestly it sounds less like a stealth/watch issue and instead two other issues:

1) For survival primes that don't have secondary damage (aka: TM), they feel their DPS relies a lot on stealth. This leans it more toward being a Thief issue more than Ranger or Necromancer, but I get why Rangers, especially long-term ones who didn't lean as heavy into magic use as they could have, who might feel a bit of a crunch as well.

2) Survival Primes feel that there isn't much more to being survival prime than stealth. Armor primes get the most hindrance reduction, magic primes get the most spell slots and free feats, lore primes get the most crafting techs, and weapon primes get to dual wield heavy weapons (I recognize that this isn't overly impressive, either). Survival primes get access to snipe (stealth), shorter hiding RTs (stealth), slips (stealth), and a larger hunt range. For all intents and purposes, the "advantage" of being survival primary are stealth perks, so there's not much else, skillset wise, that makes being survival prime attractive. Stealth primary may need "more" to it so every advantage doesn't revolve around stealth.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>Whenever you're engaged with someone they're aware you're approaching in stealth and can attack you. They can target you without pointing, or can search out and point as normal. While in hiding your Stealth ranks replace your Shield and Parry ranks.

Even though this effectively negates the surprise aspect of Stealth, I think it's a solid idea. SNIPE attacks would need some tweaking, or maybe, as a solution to both, you only become aware of someone Stealthing at you when they're at pole range or closer.

>Stealth is an offensive and defensive tool. It shouldn't be the best at both.

>It routinely takes me from my opponent not being able to see me at all to instantly spotting me when I hide.

This, to me, is the issue with stealth. When it works it's the best offensive AND defensive ability in game. It provides large damage boosts plus makes you practically unhittable.

On the other hand, if it doesn't work then it doesn't work at all. There's no sliding scale.

>Alpha-strike isn't really a thing anymore, and being able to get the first shot or snipe off doesn't mean you've rocked the 'true purpose' of Stealth, because chances are very very good your opponent isn't dead even with maximal success.

So you feel that because you can stealth you should be able to instantly kill anyone who can't see you?

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>What should stealth be in our videogame? I mean, should it be a setup for powerful alphas? Low-CD state for a more diverse set of offensive skills? Should it be a defensive stance instead?

I don't have a good answer.

Right now when stealth works, it's the best defense possible. When it doesn't, it fails completely and does nothing.

When it works, you can set up an alpha strike that is either seen as underwhelming or overpowered depending on where you fall; I don't know if ambush is seen as useful, and I know players variously love/hate backstab.

For balance reasons, it might be best to change stealth to some type of purely defensive buff which enables offensive maneuvers like ambushes, and remove the offense aspect entirely. To counter balance it would have to be less binary than it is now, and give scaling ability to interact/target the hider even if you don't have 'full point/spot' in effect.

It won't ever happen, and opens a lot of worms, and I know a great many players will disagree with me.